Friday, November 29, 2024

What Democrats did wrong... Three categories of rationalizing - while ignoring why they hate us.

At the end I'll cite some book and SF news, including some fun! Like part two of my comedy, The Ancient Ones.


Only now we'll return to the topic on everyone’s mind… WTF just happened?  And what should we do now?


We'll start with Nathan Gardels – editor & publisher of the excellent Noēma Magazine - who always offers interesting observations. Though, he often triggers my infamously ornery “Yes… but…” reflex and a too-long response. (Several posts here originated in rémise to Nathan.)


In a recent missive - "How to Soul-Search as a Losing Party" - appraising What Democrats did wrong, Gardels points out many valid things… while reaching a conclusion that I deem spectacularly mistaken. Taking note of how so many Black and Hispanic males abandoned the old, Rooseveltean Coalition, he joins with so many others out there, urging a campaign of gentle conciliation.


Nathan cites a raft of earnest intellectuals, as well as deliberative ‘citizens panels’ that have – in Europe – shown some success at getting participants to bridge the dogmatic gaps that divided them. Indeed, such experiments have been terrific! It is the mature approach. And it works… 

...with those who are already drawn far enough into the process to leave behind their familiarly comfortable, polemical echo chambers. Forsaking today’s media Nuremberg rallies, in order to participate. 

“(O)nce informed and empathetically exposed to the concerns of others, participants move from previously held dispositions toward a consensus.“


Indeed, that participation can be widespread! As in the Truth and Reconciliation process led by Nelson Mandela, in South Africa, and similar endeavors in Argentina and Chile, wherein vast swathes of the public – on all sides – realized they must do this… or risk losing everything.


As for it happening in today’s USA? Well, I can think of one actual, real world example. 

         

All across the nation, grand juries are selected from randomly-chosen voters and vetted for general reasonableness. In a majority of American counties, the resulting panels consist largely of fairly typical white retirees. And yet, it has been exactly those red county white retirees who – after exposure to arguments and copious evidence – have indicted so many Republican politicians and associates of a vast range of crimes.


    I’d argue that is a kind of fact-based consensus-building, even if it leads to some well-deserved pain by the fomenters of one side.


That is the first of many reasons why the masters of that side will have no interest in allowing wider versions of consensus building.


I do not see any hope of such a thing happening in today’s America, at any kind of scale.


…with one barely plausible exception.



== Get the kompromat-compromised to trade 'Truth' for 'Reconciliation' ==


I am on record proposing an American version of a Truth & Reconciliation process. It’s kind of aggressive, like those grand juries, but it could begin a tsunami of revelation and light, leading to millions seeking common ground.


It might begin with one brave act. One so shocking and disruptive that it could rattle the echo chambers and draw millions of ostrich heads out of media holes. It might happen even right now, at the tail end of 2024, if Joe Biden were to offer the incentive of pardons/clemency, in order to draw forward any politicians in DC to admit that they are snared by blackmail. 


As I say elsewhere, the pervasiveness of widespread blackmail in Washington is widely known in counter-intelligence circles. Honeypot entrapment of western elites has long been a specialty of Russian intel services – Okhrana, Checka, NKVD, KGB and FSB – all the way back to czarist times. Moreover, three Republican Congress members have recently attested to it likely being widespread among their GOP colleagues. 


And hence, perhaps the incentive of presidential clemency just might be enough to draw some heroic – or simply fed-up – blackmail victims into cleansing light. And once a few have done so, others might follow, from all parties. 


And yes, I do believe it’s one path that could lead to a Truth & Reconciliation process in America.


On the other hand, could T&R be achieved by preaching for a nationwide flow of commensal consensus, based upon building touchy-feely ‘mutual respect’ and listening? 


Now?  


That is fantasy. 

Especially at this moment. 

Because we have nothing to offer to those who are getting exactly what they want, right now. 


You know perfectly well what that is, if you ask around, or follow social media at all. There is one voluptuous satisfaction that tens of millions of core MAGA folks seek – and are getting – that fills them with giddy joy, above all. To drink our tears.


If you do not know this, then you really, really need to get out more.


Anyone who thinks they can placate that with ‘can we all just get along?’ has no memory of the middle school playground, where we learned one of the deepest expressions of human nature -- from bullies, whose greatest joy came from hearing nerdy victims cry out - “Can we talk this out?”



== Twin prescriptions that are guaranteed to fail ==

 

Today’s Chasm of Political Recriminations within Blue America appears to be similarly unbridgeable. 


First there’s a left wing that wants only to double down exactly upon a raft of combative identity stances that didn’t work… 


(Abortion! Racism! Pronouns! Shun Bill Maher! Forget the economy; it’s all about abortion! And did I mention abortion? And abortion!) 


… vs. those murmuring “we need to reach out for consensus!” Consensus with those who have openly declared hatred of every single fact-using profession in America, along with universities, science, the civil service, the FBI and even the U.S. military officer corps. 


To be clear, I am not rejecting consensus building! There have been times when rational politics used to be about negotiation, and those days may come again. 


Please. If you read and grasp nothing else here, understand the following history lesson.


In olden times, Republican and Democratic legislators would socialize and get to know, rather than demonize, each other. Their kids went to the same schools! That is, until Dennis “friend to boys” Hastert established a rule (look it up) that GOP representatives must stash their families in the Home District and spend as little time as possible in Washington. And - above all - demonize those on the other side of the aisle.


During some previous eras, a president was able to negotiate – even horse-trade – for a few votes needed by this or that nominee. And each appointment was considered separately.


This was true even as late as the Speakership of Newt Gingrich who, for all of his fiery, right wingism, was there to negotiate and to pass legislation needed by the country. Hence we got Welfare Reform and the Budget Act and Clinton Surpluses.


Alas, at that point Karl Rove’s program to expand gerrymandering shifted the locus of power in hundreds of districts, away from the General Election over to district primaries. Primaries in which radical partisans gained outsized sway. It happened in both parties, but especially in the GOP. Threats of ‘being primaried’ became fierce tools to enforce uniformity.


(There are ways to defeat this! Decisively, in fact. Methods that don’t even require legislation. One simple, nationwide information campaign could destroy the effectiveness of Primary Radicalization… and no party politician will discuss it.)



== The roots of our present political impasse ==


This transformation reached fruition with the 1996 Congressional putsch, when Newt was jettisoned without so much as a thank you and replaced by a later-convicted child predator, whose “Hastert Rule” has ever since declared a political death sentence for any Republican who – ever again – actually negotiates with Democrats. 


This resulted in the most tightly disciplined party and politburo America ever saw. (And some of the laziest, worst Congresses in U.S. history. Only once in the last 28 years has there been a session that passed needed legislation that directly resulted in major benefits for the nation.)

How effective is Hastert-Discipline?  No hypocrisy is too great. As when GOP Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell refused even to meet with Obama nominees more than 13 months before the next election… but hurried to confirm Trump’s final appointments one month before Biden took office. Even “deeply concerned” Senators Collins and Murkowski get back in line at the slightest warning look from Trump or from Trump’s Potemkin puppeteer.


And all of that leaves out speculative supplements, like my well-based conjecture that blackmail is rife in D.C. 


And so… amid all those highly refined tools of fanaticism, radicalization and discipline-enforcement… are we somehow supposed to seek consensus, when every single incentive is designed to thwart it?



== Bitter partisanship is a recurring American norm ==


Again and again, I am appalled by an unwillingness by our brainy, punditry castes ever to look at history. 

  • Like the 6000 years when 99% of human societies fell into drearily similar patterns of feudalism, dominated by male bullies who enforced power based on an inherited ruling class. 
  • Or how the American Experiment - in escaping feudalism - has experienced rhythmic pulses of cultural strife, with pretty much similar casts of characters, across 240-years. 
  • Or how Franklin Delano Roosevelt forged an alliance of rich, middle and poor that rendered Marxist notions of class war obsolete for a while… until Old Karl has lately been revived to fresh pertinence, by those who forget.

This latest phase of the recurring U.S. Civil War goes far beyond simply snaring the GOP political caste, as we saw in the previous section. It has been vital to re-create the 1860s alliance of poor whites with their rich overlords, in shared hatred of modernists. This required perfection of masturbatory media, offering in-group solidarity based on a Cultural Schism that has divided America since its inception. 


(Look up how in 1850s plantation-lords arranged to burn every southern newspaper that did not hew to the slavocracy line.)


Want a keen insight about all this from a brilliant science fiction author? No, I mean the revered (if somewhat libertarian) Robert A. Heinlein, who describes a recurring American illness.  In projecting a future America dominated by religious fundamentalism, he adds:


"Throw in a Depression for good measure, promise a material heaven here on earth, add a dash of anti-Semitism, anti-Catholicism, anti-Negrosim, and a good large dose of anti-“furriners” in general and anti-intellectuals here at home, and the result might be something quite frightening – particularly when one recalls that our voting system is such that a minority distributed as pluralities in enough states can constitute a working majority in Washington." 


And he wrote that in the 1950s.



== So how to fix what went wrong in 2024? ==


I speak elsewhere about this recurring American psychic and political chasm. Biliously-addictive Culture War explains Red America’s rage, far better than self-flagellatory riffs like: “We blues are at fault for refusing to listen to legitimate rural concerns.”


Excuse me. From FDR to LBJ to Clinton and Obama, rural America has received generous largesse that transformed ‘hick’ Southern and Appalachia states into modern hubs, surrounded by comfortable towns that – under Biden – just received huge waves of infrastructure repair and high-speed Internet. Unemployment is super-low and inflation has fallen.  


Did the Harris campaign fail to make all that clear?  Of course they did. And that failure was godawful. 


But nothing we try, no statistical proofs… and certainly no ‘outreach and listen’ campaign… ever stood a chance against the drug-like power of sanctimony. The volcanic flows of ingrate-hate pouring from Trumpian America, toward…


… toward whom? 


Leftists claim that the hated groups are races/genders etc. And while there is some of that, their obsession is - in its own right - poorly based sanctimony-delusion. In its own right, it is delusionally insane.


Test it! Just watch Fox some evening and count the number of minutes spent spewing outright racism or repression of gender variety, or attacking the poor. 


All of that is as a droplet next to tsunamis of bile aimed at … nerds. At fact professions. At civil servants. At the FBI and intel agencies. At the U.S. military officer corps. At exactly those who are targeted by Project 2025.


Elsewhere I go into the WHY of this open and insatiable hatred of every single fact-wielding profession. It's exactly the same cultural phenomenon as when Southern white males supported King George against city merchants… and supported slavocrat plantation lords, their actual class enemies, against urban northern sophisticates. And supported Gilded Age plutocrats against the original Progressives…


…and who now support today’s lucre-oligarchy against ‘smug university-smartypants know-it-alls’. The professionals who stand in the way of feudalism’s return. 


(Just watch who Trump goes after… and how the red folk who you want us to ‘reach out to and understand’ will cry out gleefully, with every shout of nerdy pain.)



== Defend what they most avidly seek to destroy ==


Can such masturbatory joy at defeating all fact people be assuaged with ‘reaching out’ sessions seeking ‘consensus’?


Okay, sure. Give it a try. It seems worthwhile! I might be wrong!

But if I'm right about this being phase 9 of America’s recurring cultural Civil War, then 
shall we look at how the previous phases were resolved? 


It doesn’t always have to involve violence! In fact, only one of those earlier phases was truly violent. And a couple were resolved by genius politicians like FDR!

But in this recurring madness, what never worked was supplication. Or looking weak.


What's worked is the same thing that caused bullies on the playground to step up from the dust, stare at the blood they just wiped from their noses, and go “Huh! I guess you aren’t meat, after all. Wanna come over and play X-Box?”


But sure. Read Nathan G's editorial in Noema! As usual, it is articulate and knowledgable and persuasive. So let's by all means assign some folks to give 'consensus-building' a try!  Go with the carrots that have never worked. But maybe this time.


Meanwhile, I plan to continue offering sticks. 

Tools for fact-folks to use. 

Tools that establishment politicians have never-ever-ever actually tried. At least none since FDR and LBJ.


Sticks that worked.





223 comments:

1 – 200 of 223   Newer›   Newest»
David Brin said...

Here’s a Mark Felton run-down of some of the ‘secrets from World War II’ that are still held classified and that may never see the light of day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN8FUqmI_aw

John Viril said...

Dr. Brin, reading your point about losing the ability for effective governance struck home for an unusual reason.

By isolating politicians from one another, they lost the ability to work together. I have an unusual example in my own life how this works.

I used to play poker and was a moderately winning player (tracked on a spreadsheet, not a gestalt sense). I've given it up because, to be good these days, you need to play online.

The reason is when you play online, you can use extensive tracking tools to analyze your play and spot weaknesses in your game. It's absolutely critical to have this internal data.

The problem is that when you play online you end up playing in huge volume (which is good for data, but bad for your mental health). Hands play faster at the table b/c online accelerate the mechanics of dealing a hand. On top of that, players typically multi-table (play more tables at once).

Play 8 tables at once where the hands come about 2x as fast, and you're playing ALOT of poker. That's great for data purposes, but rather terrible for maintaining an even keel.

In short, I had a rage problem. When things didn't go my way (especially when an oppoentant got rewarded for doing something stupid due to luck), i'd get really angry. One big reason this happened online rather than live, is...live I get to know these people.

It's very easy to "blow up" at a disembodied name on a computer screen. Live play is entirely different. So I have no trouble accepting swings of outrageous fortune sitting at an actual table with real people, but start raving in rage while isolated in front of my computer.

THat's pretty much what we're doing when we isolate politicians into their districts.

Add that the supposed benefit of this change was to force politicians to remain connected to the populace doesn't actually happen. Politicians are usually removed from average concerns by their position (read affluent incomes).

Politiicans who cry poverty are full of it. Almost any imbecile can get rich in congress due to investment opportunities. When businesses TELL YOU WHAT THEY"RE GOING TO DO in congressional committees....well...investing becomes a snap.

Larry Hart said...

Politicians are usually removed from average concerns by their position (read affluent incomes).

Not only that, but when they are forced by their leadership or their donors to take positions unpopular with their constituents, they tend to stop doing town halls and avoid taking questions from their public.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin in the main post:
Even “deeply concerned” Senators Collins...

I've come to cast Susan Collins as the Synthian ambassador who leaves Garth toward the beginning of your Uplift War novel.

matthew said...

The Harris campaign pointed out the economic good that Biden and the Dems had done in every damn statement they made. It was the press that refused to corroborate the message. The oligarchs that run our media *wanted* Trump back in power and were not willing to even talk about the things that the Harris campaign wanted to talk about.

Media were the hostile force that Harris had to run against because media is owned by billionaires. Some media are even owned by the "good" billionaires our host imagines.

Even those "good" billionaires' media refused to tout the Democratic Party wins.

Even all the nerds at large media outlets refused to pass on the Harris campaign messages. Does that make the folks at MSNBC class traitors? How about when they went to Mar-a-lago to kiss Trump's ring after he won?

David Brin said...

Matthew bah. Anyone, including liberal media, could tell that KH's good economy narratives weren't working because they were done crappily, sounding elitist. "We upper middle class folks are doing great! Why are you working stiffs complaining?"

There were ways to do it far better. But the Professional Dem political caste - while on the right side - are also utterly incestuous, and convinced they have nothing to learn from anything Not Invented Here.

Larry Hart said...

because they were done crappily, sounding elitist. "We upper middle class folks are doing great! Why are you working stiffs complaining?"

matthew is partly right. Some of why the working stiffs were complaining was because their media was telling them over and over how badly they were doing.

Yes, it hurts when your grocery bill is high, but they did seem to have the spare cash to buy gold-plated Trump sneakers. And to travel in record numbers for Thanksgiving. Many actually told pollsters that they were personally doing fine, but that the overall economy was bad.

mcsandberg said...

"under Biden – just received huge waves of infrastructure repair and high-speed Internet. "

Yet another example of why the Civil Servants are distrusted - with $42 billion in our tax money, not a single connection has actually been made https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/why-has-joe-biden-s-42-billion-broadband-program-not-connected-one-single-household/ar-BB1p1k0i .

Unlike my service provider, who has point to point microwave at 60 GHz to connect us at more than 100 megabit speeds https://www.xbar7.com with no government grants.

John Viril said...

Larry, a lot of people ARE doing bad, which u can see in the high levels of food insecurity the last two holiday seasons ( I don't know about this yr).

You're never going to convince a hungry person the economy "is on the right track."

scidata said...

"There were ways to do it far better"

And chief among them is promoting scientific literacy, numeracy, and citizen science. Saviors are losers at best, vampires at worst. Hard work, takes years, but creates a Jeffersonian citizenry.

Mark Olbert said...

A typically interesting post :). I read it after reading a piece from The Atlantic back in 2022 which talked about the babelization of America (worth reading, check it out). Turns out wiring the world has both enormous benefits and significant costs...and, as per usual, we aren't doing a good job of "taxing" the benefits to mitigate the costs.

I won't pretend to understand why the Democratic pitch in 2024 failed. Granted, it didn't fail by much...but it did fail. I suspect there are lots of things that could have/should have been done differently.

FWIW, I tend to see political problems (at all levels of politics) as a result of a fundamental conflict in human nature.

We are social primates. The primate part makes us highly intelligent, master manipulators of our environment, and very good at defining and defending our self-interest. The social part enables us to work together at scales that few other animals can.

American culture is steeped in the ethos of individualism, which is reflective of the primate part of our nature. But the reality is we are all, as individuals, far more successful when we live in a high-functioning community, one whose members don't spend "too much" time looking out only for #1 (and our immediate relatives). Put another way, for the vast majority of us, we really succeed by working together.

But you can't get past the primate part of our make-up by appealing to the angels of our better natures. You have to structure a successful political pitch so it at least arguably answers the question "what's in it for me?"

Many Democrats, particularly ones in better off areas (I live smack dab between Biotech Gulch and Silicon Valley), are well-enough off that they don't really need to spend too much time thinking about protecting their self interests. They've got that covered.

That's not the case for most of the population, particularly the relatively less politically engaged middle. Consequently, pitches which heavily emphasize solving "distant" real problems (e.g., climate change) or protecting one (objectively discriminated against) group don't play well. It's why one of the biggest recent climate initiatives was called the Inflation Reduction Act.

I don't have a magic bullet to offer progressive forces. But I suspect what will work best is ensuring we always talk about "pocketbook issues" -- which aren't all financial -- more than we talk about existential crises (even though we face a number of those).

We need to amass enough political power to address the existential problems before they kill us all. But we can only get that power by appealing to a good portion of the self-interests of those who may not share our view of the crises, or at least the level of danger they present. Because as Josh Stein famously said on West Wing, if you don't win, you can't govern.

Larry Hart said...

I get that. But the right-wing media is telling them who to blame for not being on the right track. "It's all Biden's doing, with Harris in complicity," is not really why they're hungry. Much has to do with Republican obstruction in congress and with Republican policies that have favored corporations over workers for decades.

Much of the Democrats' failed messaging has to do with not placing the blame where it belongs. And some of that is less the fault of the Democrats than of the media messengers.

Some are already starting to notice that tariffs will make the cost of living worse, not better.

Larry Hart said...

Mark Olbert:

But I suspect what will work best is ensuring we always talk about "pocketbook issues" -- which aren't all financial -- more than we talk about existential crises (even though we face a number of those).


Interesting take. Republicans are able to pretend not to be in favor of things like national abortion bans or Project 2025 or white nationalism in order to appeal to the middle, confident that their wingnut supporters know full well they'll do those things anyway. Maybe we should be doing the same? Campaign on lowering the cost of living and trust our supporters to know what else we'll do after we're in office.

There's a real life example of that working. Obama didn't run on legalizing gay marriage. But once in power, Democrats got the job done.

Hellerstein said...

Mark Olbert: the solution is a valuable but artificial construct called 'enlightened self-interest'. It has to be enlightened to deserve to exist, but it also has to be self-interested to be able to exist. Putting the two together requires artifice.

Larry Hart said...

Point being, to mangle Ronald Reagan:
Republicans are not the solution to the problem [of being on the wrong track]. Republicans are the problem.

That's a one-sided exaggeration, of course. But I believe it to be more accurate than the solution being "Throw out the Democrats."

Larry Hart said...

Many of you probably heard this already, but here at about minute 0:50 is Ukrainian boxer Wladimir Klitschko calling out Joe Rogan's b.s. about Ukraine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbCFPwMrh6k

locumranch said...

We are children of Adam Smith and we love nothing better than fair competition (and) I will bet my house...[DB]

It is quite obvious our Rancher does not consider us to be persons of good character...

All of that is as a droplet next to tsunamis of bile aimed at … nerds. At fact professions. At civil servants. At the FBI and intel agencies. At the U.S. military officer corps...


Yet again, I have failed to communicate effectively, as evidenced by (1) our good host's ongoing reliance on Competitive Wagering methodologies, (2) the false assertion that I do not respect the 'good character' of those with whom I argue and (3) the half-truth that the general public hates 'smart people' & 'fact-users' for their intelligence.

I fully concede that Dr. Brin is more intelligent than I am -- that he is the clear winner in any 'battle of wits' in which we may engage -- but these victories do not have the zero sum hierarchical significance that he appears to invest in them, as they neither confer upon the victor any command or leadership rights, nor do they reduce the status of the loser to that of subservient child.

Adults (in general) want find out for themselves, using trial & error in order to learn from direct personal life experience, because this is what adults do, even when we deny this freedom to young children in an attempt to protect them from undesirable outcomes, as the difference between conferred knowledge & direct experience is as stark as the difference between a textbook on human reproduction & actual fucking.

Ergo, it is not so much the 'smart people, nerds & fact-users' that most adults resent when we are being lectured to, but the infantilization that results when these smart people, nerds & fact-users try to protect and dominate other adults as if those others were retarded children rather than legal adults.

To quote Captain Archer from Star_Trek Enterprise:

"We’re going to stumble, make mistakes – I’m sure more than a few, before we find our footing. But we’re going to learn from those mistakes. That’s what being human is all about."

So, please stop denying the humanity of other adults, even if they did it to you first (you claim), because if you don't stop the dehumanizing cycle then you're not an adult, either.


Best

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin in the previous comments:

“Musk apparently gets a pass on being a nerd because he's also an asshole.”

Sorry. While both diagnoses may be correct, the connection is flawed. As you know, I believe that screeches and howls BY the left, spewing extremely stupid hate-masturbations at him, accomplishing nothing but their own sanctimony jizz, ...


That's an explanation for why Musk himself has swung rightward, not for why those who hate "elite smartypants who know stuff" don't consider billionaire engineer Elon Musk to be in that category.

Lloyd Flack said...

You have just verified my argument that one of the main differences between you and others here is how much value should be placed on direct personal experience. You want to rely on it and think that you can most of the time. The rest of us see it as inadequate much of the time whether we like it or not. And we want our information to from sources that check what they report.

Mark Olbert said...

Maybe we should be doing the same? Campaign on lowering the cost of living and trust our supporters to know what else we'll do after we're in office.

(Sorry if that didn't italicize -- I'm not used to formatting in blogger)

Yep. It's a matter of prioritizing the pitch elements...which doesn't have to necessarily match the prioritization of action, as long as "enough" action for the highest priority pitch element gets made.

Mark Olbert said...

I agree, enlightened self-interest would work...if it could be achieved at scale in practice, which I doubt.

It's sort of like the philosopher kings that Plato offered as a way to create a desirable government: nice idea, but essentially a deus ex machina move. Which may work in novels, but not so often in the real world.

But I encourage you to keep up the appeals because, who knows? They might work, and it's hard to see how they'd hurt.

Hellerstein said...

Enlightened self-interest can, and has, been done at scale in practice when it addresses common problems and aims for common wealth.

Therefore I advise against identity politics of any sort, for it is divisive and based mostly upon illusion. Unity politics is far better.

If you must resort to us-versus-them primate politics, then target the most artificial and illusory divide of all: class. There is a photo, from the Occupy Wall Street time, of a construction worker holding a sign saying "99 to 1. I like those odds."

WilliamG said...

"If God didn't want them to be sheared, he wouldn't have made them sheep"

That's how Trump treats his own supporters and they love it! Democrats keep trying to educate sheep - Republicans herd them. Time to set moral compunctions aside ( "sooner or later, you must answer for every good deed" ) and try new tactics.

David Brin said...

Glad I made an exception and glanced at this by locum: "Ergo, it is not so much the 'smart people, nerds & fact-users' that most adults resent when we are being lectured to, but the infantilization that results when these smart people, nerds & fact-users try to protect and dominate other adults as if those others were retarded children rather than legal adults."

Vitamins? That whine was actually aimed in a direction that (if you squint reeal hard) has a kind of validity. If you remove 'dominate' (since we do all in our power to defend the only human system that ever tried to extend opportunity to all children and all who try hard to compete fairly...

...if you remove that word, then the paragraph is kind of valid. As an expression of how HE and other MAGAs feel the fact professions treat them. Often embarrassed when they say something ignorant to a doctor or teacher -- or their own children who went to university - it's easy to interpret even an innocent response as patronizing. And yes, I have OFTEN said that's gotta hurt.

Still, as a representation of actual reality among the 50 million fact professionals who every day keep America functioning and moving ahead and solving problems... and who were entirely responsible for defeating Stalinism>. No. It's a fucking delusional lie.

Do you hate and resent us? Sure, and maybe we do 1% of the patronizing shit you inflate or imagine. And we are your sons and daughters who stood on the shoulders of a working class who strove with FDR to truly make America great. And have we succeeded beyond your ability to squint and grasp? Well... maybe.

But decent people and loyal Americans would not resent that. They would not pour ingrate hate upon those who are verything the Greatest Generation fought and aspired to become.

---------------
"That's an explanation for why Musk himself has swung rightward, not for why those who hate "elite smartypants who know stuff" don't consider billionaire engineer Elon Musk to be in that category."

You're kidding, right? He is their excuse to shout "See? I don't JUST bow before "ex" commisars and inheritance brats! Some nerds -- like some negroes -- are the GOOD ones!"

WilliamG said...

Dr. Brin said:
"...if you remove that word, then the paragraph is kind of valid. As an expression of how HE and other MAGAs feel the fact professions treat them. Often embarrassed when they say something ignorant to a doctor or teacher -- or their own children who went to university - it's easy to interpret even an innocent response as patronizing. And yes, I have OFTEN said that's gotta hurt."

I think this is really close - I think a huge part of his appeal is he has been successful without appearing - even to his own supporters - very bright in the conventional sense.


David Brin said...

Oh I noticed - akimming - one other thing... another lame squirm to evade Brin's wager demand gambit. Pah! If you believed you had provable facts on your side, you would step up with stakes in order to TAKE... MY... MONEY. Pure self-interest... plus the brains to gather real evidence plus the balls to act like a man would, in any other generation before ours.

Not one MAGA ever, ever, ever has gathered those three things, guts, brains and eagerness for cash, and had their atty contact me to arrange things. They always always squirm and writhe and weasel ... and then run.

And the fact that no one on the other side - those who DO have the facts on their side - refuse ever to notice how this works and try it themselves... is proof that our side ain't so smart either. How we ever got science is a mystery. And dang we sure need machines of loving grace.

Alan Brooks said...

Loc isn’t rejecting hierarchy, is he? He’s vacillating between hierarchy and autonomy.
We can be autonomous albeit do need to be reined in by those with more skills and experience. Round n‘ round he goes.
Discipline versus liberty (or license).
Verification versus placebo.
Individual rights/privileges versus collective responsibilities.
Tried-and-true versus de novo.
Ultra-materialism versus transcendence/escapism.
Sobriety versus celebration.
Even seriousness v jocularity.

Round ‘n round we all go.

Alan Brooks said...

We are talking at cross-purposes with MAGAs and the others.
They are saying:
the world is passing away;
thus live for Now and the family;
do as thou wilt, until thee wilt away.

We are talking past them.

Unknown said...

I saw an online reference to Elon Musk as a 'henchgeek' to the incoming horror. Apropos.

Pappenheimer

P.S. So glad my Fullbright girl is heading out for good in few days. In the trousers of fate, we have taken the wrong leg.

Unknown said...

"How we ever got to science is a mystery."? No, it's not. Every member of every band of humans that moved into a new territory was a jackleg natural scientist and meteorologist. We started recording our observations before we had history - pretty sure the Polynesians carried string-net star charts and people were marking moon phases in caves when a flint-headed arrow was cutting-edge killing equipment.

Pappenheimer

duncan cairncross said...

Been thinking - a dangerous thing
I spent some years working for the local council
Before that I was sure that council workers were lazy and that mostly they just got in the way of people trying to do things
Working for the council I was amazed at just how much we got done AND just how much hidden infrastructure even a small town had
I must admit that after a few years "politics" got involved - local not national - and they paid me to go away along with the most productive of my workforce

When OGH talks about the 50 million fact professionals - I suspect that a lot of people think in terms of council workers

Without those people things would grind to a halt -
But to most of the public they are faceless minions who get in the way!
They say "you can't dig here" and "that needs to be done this way"

We do need people to do all that and most (not all) regulations are necessary

But to the public.....
And to me as an engineer and manager before I worked for the council

Tony Fisk said...

I also think (on occasion) that infrastructure could and should be made more accessible. Being hidden in the walls and underground makes it a mystery.

Tacitus said...

David. I scanned the original post. Mostly the Usual Stuff but I do take exception to the suggestion that Conservatives are universally enjoying the discomfiture of the Progressives. I find the apparent sea change in our politics interesting, but I won't be gloating. I actually like many of you here. And not in a politically defined way. For instance I find LarryHart to be a genuinely likeable individual and Locum not to be. I doubt either of these gents will take exception to this, its how a community works. And likeability is not a comment on the quality of their ideas.

Now, one notion you did toss out caught my eye. Grand Juries and (if I did not misread) an extension into Truth and Reconciliation Boards. Do you not consider Grand Juries to be vulnerable to politically corrupt influences? Could one for instance convene a panel of horrid backwoods rednecks and find a politically ambitious Prosecutor to lead them into mischief? Serious question btw. And while we are at it, might you spell out a few deets regards how a T and R system would work in America? Perhaps give us a few names you think should appear before it? Or a methodology for how these people are identified, how T and R would interface with our existing justice system, etc.

scidata said...

Tacitus: I actually like many of you here

That is the greatest tragedy. Broken families aren't pretty. Even for this old Canuck, American Thanksgiving was a poignant time.

GMT -5 (Hugh) said...

I have not been paying attention to the Republican field of contenders this year. I sense that any Republican running against either Harris or Biden would have had certain advantages and disadvantages compared to Trump.

I saw several types of Trump voters:
(1) enthusiastic MAGA,
(2) irrational/automatic partisans [always vote for the GOP],
(3) reluctant partisans [hate Trump but can't bring themselves to vote for a Democrat][many of these people were on the border of not voting at all or voting third party],
(4) right-wing populists [could partially overlap with (1)],
(5) left-wing populists [former Bernie bros who are angry at the Democratic party establishment - like Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Bret Weinstein]

If Trump had admitted defeat in 2020 and turned over power peacefully without a January 6th, he would have won the election with a result similar to Reagan's defeat of Carter in 1980. If there had been some other non-Trump right-wing populist you possibly could have had the same result.

If Trump had not run in 2024 and the nominee had been a more "normal" Republican like Rubio, Christie or the like, they would have received more cross-over votes from Democrats frustrated by the negative perceptions of the Biden administration's actions. But, that type of nominee would have lost many of category (1), (4) and (5); those voters would probably have not voted in as high numbers as they did.

Side note. While many evangelical Christians flocked to Trump, I notice that the Christian Coalition of America (what's left of it) did not. Last time I saw its president, Roberta Combs, was in 2017 and she did not want to mention Trump at all. I saw zero election activity from the group this campaign. They put out their voter guides (which heavily favored Trump) but did nothing else.

-FJ the Dangerous and Extreme MAGA Jew said...

Your tears re so salty, David.... more, more!

David Brin said...

Tacitus, like most conservatives, seems to have a memory problem. I recall well how pre-MAGAs preached that the county grand jury is THE central locus of sovereignty, righteously empowered to over-rule anything passed by distant legislatures. Now? They are monstrous meddlers, simply because, when calmly presented facts, these panels – still mostly white retirees in HUNDREDS of mostly rural or suburban zones – have indicted FORTY TIMES as many Republicans as Democrats.

Could one start with the first order conclusion – by Occam’s Razor – that the GOP is largely a criminal gang? Especially in light of their all-out war vs every fact profession, against the FBI and against every part of American life that Putin blames for our success and his failure? And 40 years of Supply Side sucks of the middle class life blood without a single beneficial prediction coming true?

NAW! Instead of even glancing at the obvious, let’s scramble instead for a rationalization! Might scores and hundreds of GJs might be “vulnerable to politically corrupt influences? Could one for instance convene a panel of horrid backwoods rednecks and find a politically ambitious Prosecutor to lead them into mischief?”

Yeah, that’s the ticket. A vague armwave toward a vague what-if, ignoring that we are talking about SCORES and hundreds of these panels… indicting mostly very rich and influential men with big legal teams… AND THAT MOST of the indictments later led to convictions before OTHER juries. Or that rich and powerful men had perfect access to top lawyers and investigators and were perfectly able to make their own cases for innocence.

In other words, Tacitus just keeps writhing and wriggling and squirming to avoid LOOKING at what’s happening. He’ll keep doing so when the US military Officer Corps – the greatest accumulation of spectacularly mature adults the world has ever seen, gets reamed out and turned into a praetorian guard.


Truth & Reconciliation. If Biden did what I want, we might shatter the blatant blackmail ring in DC, that THREE GOP congressmen have said is rife in their party. THREE! A viper nest that all the counter-intel folks know about and that you can see, every time L Graham or T Cruz or M Rubio open their mouths. If that happened, then Biden’s PARDONING of truth tellers would lead to reconciliation and then others and others. The chances of that happening under Trump are nil. In fact I would bet that blackmail kompromat is THE central requirement for anyone seeking an appointment from him.

In theory, a T&R commission would involve folks like Tacitus, who supposedly can see all sides. Alas, he does so via monkey-no-see… monkey-no-hear… monkey-never-ever-speak about the hijacking of US conservatism by pure evil.


FJ thank you for making my point. Your taunts just make me faintly smile with a fart in , naw I won’t even turn in your direction.

GMT there is another crucial category…. Blacks and Hispanics who believe great progress HAS been made in racial justice and their ability to advance and felt patronized by libs sobbing “We’re here to HELP you poor things!”

Mark Olbert said...

I served as a locally elected official for nearly two decades. In all that time, I could count on the fingers of one hand the votes I took on non-trivial matters (e.g., I'm not talking about recognizing someone for good works) where I couldn't see that my vote was going to impact someone's self-interest negatively.

The idea that public policies should be held to some kind of Hippocratic standard is a shibboleth. Good public policies are about increasing the "health"/"strength" of a community without adversely impacting "too many" people "too much".

In fact, one of the lessons I learned from my experience is the goal of public policy setting isn't "enact good policies" but instead "enact least bad policies". That's because of the enormous diversity of (self) interests within any community, let alone our typically sized ones.

Interestingly, dealing with this is something every fellow elected struggled with. Because who can get excited about a "least bad" policy? And who wants to run on the platform of "vote for me, I enacted a whole bunch of least bad policies for you!!" :)

scidata said...

A year ago, Douglas Hofstadter (sometimes referred to as the patron saint of GOFAI), did this interview on the current state of AI. Near the end, he describes what it's like when some of your core beliefs begin to collapse. However, you need to learn, embrace, and internalize those beliefs before the collapse can appreciated or even be noticed. I'm beginning to realize that beliefs are not inherently evil, they only become so when the possibility of CITOKATE is totally absent. Perhaps that's what happened to Musk - he stopped learning. It's almost like a form of dying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6e08RnJyxo

David Brin said...

Tacitus also said: "Mostly the Usual Stuff but I do take exception to the suggestion that Conservatives are universally enjoying the discomfiture of the Progressives." To which: (1) I don't recall using 'conservatives' but rather MAGAs. There is a major distinction, in fact in many ways opposites, though self-described 'conservatives' bury their heads to ignore that.

(2) You really, really, really need to get out more. Social media and Trumpist TV& radio are exploding with orgasm glee over delighted hate-punishment of every fact-weilding caste... and yes also the leftists. Our fretful tears for the republic are their food and drink.

Mark Olbert said...

Which is why the only decent line in the Star Wars prequels (episodes 1 - 3) is "So this is how democracies die, to thunderous applause".

DP said...

Thank God we'll have an anti vaxxer like rfk and a quack like Dr Oz in charge of our nation's health.

Don't worry. Herd immunity, horse pills and raw milk will save us.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/29/opinion/bird-flu-pandemic.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dk4.7M89.KZ_5TnVVWsuC

A Bird Flu Pandemic Would Be One of the Most Foreseeable Catastrophes in History
The H5N1 avian flu, having mutated its way across species, is raging out of control among the nation’s cattle, infecting roughly a third of the dairy herds in California alone. Farmworkers have so far avoided tragedy, as the virus has not yet acquired the genetic tools to spread among humans. But seasonal flu will vastly increase the chances of that outcome. As the colder weather drives us all indoors to our poorly ventilated houses and workplaces, we will be undertaking an extraordinary gamble that the nation is in no way prepared for.

Tony Fisk said...

Someone online was celebrating a recent anniversary of a death by bemoaning the retirement of a cartoon. I suggested an update: Death plays with a sideshow lucky dip machine. Caption updated to read: "Henry Kissinger!? Is RFK Jr even in this thing??"

Premature? Yes. An exaggeration? No.

Larry Hart said...

I suggest naming the ensuing disasters after Trump. The Trump BIrd Flu (or just Trump Flu). Trump Polio. "Unmonitored Trump Hurricane ravages the south." That sort of thing,

Larry Hart said...

I wish I knew any of those references. The joke must be quite funny. :)

David Brin said...

Just showed daughter my 11-1962 MAD magazine. Cheerful jests on JFK and Car 54 where are you? Dang we were in for it.

GMT -5 (Hugh) said...

I used to be the Jewish lawyer with the Christian Coalition. Good times. But I regret the time I spent sacrificing for Bush #43.

GMT -5 (Hugh) said...

Somewhere I have the comedy album THE FIRST FAMILY. Such fun.

https://youtu.be/Xwu8S6Ekx9w?si=Y33Kqg5wKIPlyoU1

Almost as good as STAN FREEBERG PRESENTS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

https://youtu.be/jjgxmlw43pw?si=oo24zOu3YbdCTOlF

At 6 min 18 seconds in is one of my favorite bits of humor: rumbles of mutiny.

Tony Fisk said...

Here's the original (the grim jest being the why: Kissinger was still alive at the time)

Tony Fisk said...

Trump would try to monetise naming rights.

Tacitus said...

David, your political cosmology seems a dark and disturbing place. Filled with blackmailers, pedophiles. Also lots of writhing. So much writhing. And wriggling and squirming. It's not exactly conducive to discussion. But hey, its Chinatown. I mean, its the Internet.

I get out and about quite a bit. Hence the long gaps between my appearances here. I wish brighter days for you. Mine are pretty good.

Larry Hart said...

Ah, now I get it.

Could also read "Is Donald Trump...". Or Rupert Murdoch.

Larry Hart said...

That might get him to go along with it.

David Brin said...

Tacitus I really don't know why I bother. You can see the monsters, right in front of you. And yet, like Haley Mills in POLYANNA you can ignore the monstrous. At most, like Susan Collins and Sen. Murkowski, you are occasionally 'very concerned.'

I devoutly hope that we live in your world! I am accused across most spectra of being an 'optimist!'

But the direct and absolute correlation - they are coming for all the FBI, CIA, ,ilitary officers and civil servants who Putin blamed for the fall of the USSR - is too blatant. As is the delerious joy being spewed across all MAGA media over their soon-destruction.

If you have not seen that then... no... you do not 'get out' enough.

But still... Thrive. And persevere!

Larry Hart said...

In defense of Tacitus, I'm not convinced that "MAGA media" is any more representative of reality than the lefty shouters on social media are. It is demonstrable that Democrats lose support when they mistake yelling about issues on Twitter for actual support of those issues in the real world. I suspect that the same is true of our perception of the other side--that just because people tweet about civil war doesn't mean they're ready and willing to actually fight in one.

Tac seems to spend less time on the internet than I do, and even I think I spend too much time online. He does more things that involve interactions with real human beings, and I believe him when he says his days are pretty good. I think that when I don't dwell on politics--something I've had trouble staying away from this past month--my life is pretty good too. That's probably one reason why neither of us voted for Trump.

People who aren't full-on MAGA but voted for Trump say it's because (to paraphrase) their days aren't good. So be it. My samaritrophia* is kicking in. They voted for Trump as their savior, which relieves me of any need or desire to care about their problems. "Let their God provide it."

(Bad liberal! Bad!!!)

* From Vonnegut's God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater

“Samaritrophia is the suppression of an overactive conscience by the rest of the mind. ‘You must all take instructions from me!’ the conscience shrieks, in effect, to all the other mental processes. The other processes try it for a while, note that the conscience is unappeased, that it continues to shriek, and they note, too, that the outside world has not been even microscopically improved by the unselfish acts the conscience has demanded.

“They rebel at last. They pitch the tyrannous conscience down an oubliette, weld shut the manhole cover of that dark dungeon. They can hear the conscience no more. In the sweet silence, the mental processes look about for a new leader, and the leader most prompt to appear whenever the conscience is stilled, Enlightened Self-interest, does appear. Enlightened Self-interest gives them a flag, which they adore on sight. It is essentially the black and white Jolly Roger, with these words written beneath the skull and crossbones, ‘The hell with you, Jack, I’ve got mine!’”

Alberto Monteiro said...

Why not simply say that the hate speech that the woke culture has been feeding the world (remember Kamala saying that Christians were not welcome? The shooter? The pro-Hamas groups in the Democratic Party?) was the reason most Americans voted them out?

Larry Hart said...

While not entirely dismissing the gist of your point...what shooter? The Republican who managed to spray someone else's blood onto Trump's ear? The other Republican who was simply exercising his Constitutional right to carry weapons at a Trump rally? Or maybe any of the multitude of other shooters--mass or otherwise--who Republicans consider to be the price of freedom?

Oh, and no, I don't remember Kamala saying Christians were not welcome.

I'll give you the pro-Hamas groups. The result that they achieved* is my one consolation over Trump's election.

* Dave Sim: "Sometimes, you can get what you want and still not be very happy."

Tony Fisk said...

Hate speech from the woke?

Tony Fisk said...

Speaking of hate, has anyone noted what's been going on in Northern Syria in the last couple of days? Looks like Assad's forces have been routed from Aleppo, and Putin hasn't anything left in the tank to help out.

David Brin said...

Fundamental, Alberto. Step up with wager stakes which side spews the most hate. And hate toward every single fact-using profession. We are in a cursed time when 'sides' hurl assertions, forgetting that it IS possible to tell the difference between a fact-supported assertion and an untrue spew of hot air.

Larry Hart said...

@Tony Fisk, I just this afternoon heard about that on Hal Sparks's radio show, and his guest Phil Ittner who is in Kyiv. Not just the rebellion going on in Syria, but another in the streets of the capital of (ex-Soviet) Georgia.

Russia is dealing with unrest on several fronts. Putin was even dissed in Kazakhstan

https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-flag-appears-big-screen-during-putin-visit-kazakhstan-2024-11-28/

ASTANA, Nov 28 (Reuters) - Kazakh police are investigating the brief appearance of the Ukrainian flag on a large LED screen in the capital city, Astana, during a visit there by Russian President Vladimir Putin, Kazakhstan's interior ministry said on Thursday.

David Brin said...

Putin's been using Syria to rest exhausted troops, having pulled all air defense systems out. They may be in a lot of pain, right now. Vulnerable. But I doubt IDF will attack Russians. They MIGHT hit Assad to curry favor with Sunnis & Turkey.

David Brin said...

Thing I've wondered: fragging in the RF army must be huge, yet I never hear or see it mentioned. The ability of Russians to endure suffering is prodigious. Oh and I mention again the word Fog. And possible resurrection of a former queen of the battlefield weapon. If you guess what it is, do not say it aloud. Here or anywhere else.

Tony Fisk said...

North Koreans aside, there are a lot of non-Russians in Putin's forces. Their main use appears to be as cannon fodder.
Actually, fear of 'fragging' might be what's behind the upsurge in POW executions. 'What? You want to surrender? To people we've just done that to?'
There are other motives, of course, including the 'savouring of tears' mentioned in this article.
No idea what you're referring to, but I suspect any student of warfare wouldn't be puzzled for long.

Larry Hart said...

Tony Fisk:

Hate speech from the woke?


Woke culture is intolerant of intolerance.

Apparently, enough voters now identify as intolerant, and are sick and tired of being oppressed for it.

Robert said...

I agree with our host about the identity-politics Left, but the classical economic Left, including the more democratic genuine Marxist, might have good prospects. I've noticed that Bernie was the only candidate in 2016 who could draw in substantial numbers of people who later went for Trump. Also, some of the sharpest criticism of woke in academia has come from independent (never aligned with the Communists) Marxists. I'm not on the Left myself, but there is a Left I can respect, and it's the classical Socialists.

There are also a lot (in absolute numbers) of genuine conservatives out there who have broken with the crazy Republicans, but they only add up to a small percentage, and have had zero effect on the 2024 election.

Bob Pfeiffer.

locumranch said...

As evidenced by those who mistake a desire for balance for 'vacillation' and Aleister Crowley's 'do what thou wilt' for Christian teachings, I must conclude that subtlety is largely lost on the many who post here, except possibly for Tacitus who understands that the LR persona was specifically designed to be 'unlikeable' (critically unambiguous), so harsh truths follow the abandonment of subtlety.

(1) Expertism is an euphemism for Tribalism.

As in the case of Dr Brin, those who identify with the Expert, Intellectual, Educated, Professional & Progressive Tribe support 'Expert Rule' by their own tribe, and this is in no way different than any other tribe which believes that their own tribe is best-suited to rule, whether or not this tribe identifies as Irish, Christian, muslim, uneducated, conservative, white, blue, red or something else. It therefore follows that Dr Brin is an unapologetic tribalist.

(2) Dr Brin's "Competitive Wagering" tactic is one of Intimidation.

Despite & possibly because of Dr Brin's expertise in 'conflict negotiation', his incessant demand that his opponents put their finances 'where their mouth is' is a deliberately confrontational tactic to exploit polite society's aversion to direct confrontation, as this willingness to gamble one's resources amounts to a bluff at worst (or, at best, an expression of faith) that in no way correlates with any known type of scientific or empiric truth-testing, being most comparable to 'Trial by Combat' as a legal argument. The same is true in his 'Disputation Arenas' wherein Dr Brin seems to be much more concerned with victory than he does with rightness & objectivity.

I can only hope that Tacitus will stick around, since his criticisms are the few that seem to reach our fine host's ears, but I suspect that this will not happen until Tacitus abandons the people-pleasing aspects of his well-developed bedside manner in favor of honesty & directness.

This brings me to my final point:

(3) Politeness has become synonymous with Falsehood.

As illustrated by Larry_H's insane assertion that 'woke tolerance' equals intolerance, the West has allowed itself to be consumed & subsumed by lies & more lies in the mistaken belief that if we lie about social dysfunction then those social dysfunctions disappear as if by magic, so we substitute ideals for reality & meaningless 'happy talk' for honesty.

Tacitus is right to flee this truthless minefield, especially if he wishes to avoid conflict while simultaneously remaining 'likeable', even though nothing good can come from a dishonest culture because the Truth_Will_Out, eventually, and all these lies will collapse & take all these lying liars down with them, including those polite well-intentioned ones who only lied to avoid unpleasant conflict & increase social cohesion.

Best

Lloyd Flack said...

I'll mostly agree with you on the wagering. It is a bad idea. You're wrong about why our host is supporting it, but I don't blame you for seeing it as an attempt at intimidation. He has become obsessed with it and can't see why others don't think it is a good idea. But his primary motive has been to use it as a way to deal with evasiveness and goal shifting. He is doing this out of exasperation.
Your first point is projection. To deal with the world you have to understand it. To do this you have to actually seek the truth and have ways of correcting error. And you have to use the knowledge that others have accumulated. You have to have methods that can lead to unpleasant conclusions and be willing to face up to unpleasant facts. Trying to believe that the World is the way that you wish it was can lead to disaster. An ethos of truth seeking is essential. The experts that you dismiss have that ethos. It does not mean that they cannot be wrong, just that it makes them less likely to be wrong. The ones attacking them do not have an ethos of truth seeking. They are looking for ways to continue believing what they want to believe.
And politeness is not falsehood. It is quite reasonable to criticize some of the ostentatious display of concern. But what is wrong is the ostentation, not the concern

David Brin said...

“Woke culture is intolerant of intolerance.”

Yes but that’s simply reflex to the American/Hollywood preachings I talk about in VIVID TOMORROWS: Science Fiction and Hollywood – http://www.davidbrin.com/vividtomorrows.html

No, what’s impressive to me is that almost everyone sanctimoniously extolls “my kind of people is the most-oppressed and best kind of people!” reflex. And I openly admit I do that too! When I rave about scientists and the Protector Castes and fact folks being the core enemies denounced by Putin and warred against by the Mad Right…

…well, I can back it up with all the facts and stats in the world. But it still has an element of: “my kind of people is the most-oppressed and best kind of people!” And all I can do (beyond proving it over and over) is admit that, sure. I have the human reflex, too.

BUT woke-ists, while they are often self-defeating dingbats who drove millions of blacks and Hispanics out of the coalition… well… I admit their ravings are sometimes on behalf of types of folks other than themselves.

Robert… Scandinavian socialists are not Marxists, except to the extent that they heed warnings about class. But Adam Smith issued those, as well. What’s fundamental is “Does this socialism help to elevate all children and others to be encouraged to confidently and knowingly and even joyfully and creatively compete?

If so – and in raising all kids and preventing rule by inheritance brats – then that’s Smith, not Marx.

David Brin said...

Quick skim of locum indicates vitamins in use. (I wish the f$%#$# he would make up his mind! Now I have to keeping quick skimming for a while, till he goes completely fecal, again.)

On this occasion he yammers untruths and rationalizations, but better than most times.

#1 is ironically a version of the “my kind of folks” riff I just typed, above! I admitted freely that there may be an element of that, psychologically… while every palpable assertion supporting it is utterly provable.

Alas, he is trying desperately to maintain the fundamentally ZERO-SUM premise that being smart and knowing stuff mean fact folks are therefore concomitantly unwise. It is – of course – total opposite to true bullshit and trivially disproved. Which leads us to his excuse for shrieking cowardice.

#2. Eeeeeek! Brin is being confrontational by demanding that macho yammerers step up with proof! Hey, goombah. Trying to guilt trip Americans for fighting back vs Confederate aggression may work with others. Not with me. Pretenses at MACHO are VITAL to your cult. And that pretense is savaged by exposure of your utter, weenie cowardice and writhing excuses.

If you can disprove ANY of my assertions – in my standard wager demand – then YOU … GET…. Money! Lots of it. Plus the satisfaction of crushing liberal talking points. You can’t. Moreover, if any of my assertions ARE true, then each one – all by itself – proves that your cult is a pack if jabbering, fact-hating traitors.

Here they are again:
"Have a reputable atty verify you escrowed $10k stakes. We'll put evidence to a RANDOM nonpartisan panel of retired Sr military officers. (Most former lifelong Republicans.) Pool with fellow MAGAs. Take MY $$!

*Grand juries across USA (mostly white retirees in red-run states) indicted almost 100X as many top Repubs as Dems! 80x convictions!Your cult is a criminal gang. Bets?

*Pick any RANDOM 10 of Trump's >>50,000 registered lies to fact-check. Or evidence of ANY election 'steal.' Or name 1 fact-profession NOT hated-on by Fox?

* Let's tally NDAs & hush payments! Which party wants to BAN them?

*Come to sea with me and a Ph meter! Bet whether CO2-caused acid is killing the oceans.

*Check Fox 'scientists are sheep!' rants. Let's knock on 20 RANDOM offices and labs at a nearby university!

*Compare DEATH rates of those who refused vaccines!

*Bet which party is ALWAYS more fiscally responsible? Compare economic outcomes! Or if Red-run States (except Utah) average higher on EVERY turpitude!

No MAGA/Putinist EVER shows manly guts to back up their blab, as grampa would've. Blowhards flee the ruins of their macho.

What L’s whine amounts to is admission that he’s lose in every single category, above. And so many more.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

No, what’s impressive to me is that almost everyone sanctimoniously extolls “my kind of people is the most-oppressed and best kind of people!” reflex.


I still maintain there is a difference in the way a white male Christian subset of Republicans uses that argument from the way almost everyone else does. They consider themselves oppressed on the basis that they are prevented from oppressing others. Most "oppressed" people strive for equality. The ones who strive for supremacy are doing something different.


BUT woke-ists, while they are often self-defeating dingbats who drove millions of blacks and Hispanics out of the coalition… well… I admit their ravings are sometimes on behalf of types of folks other than themselves.


Liberals and Democrats have become the X-Men. "Hated and feared by those they've sworn to protect."

Larry Hart said...

In the 1980s comics and probably later, mutants were a stand-in for any real-life oppressed minority, and the stories treated anti-mutant hysteria as analogous to racism, religious bigotry, etc.

In 2024, there might be a good story in portraying the "good" mutants as being off-putting in the same way the extreme woke left is and turning allies away from their cause. If done right (not too simplistically) it could open some eyes.

Something of this sort was tried with Spider-Man back when I was still reading new issues. They tried to retcon the history such that the reason Flash Thompson had been a bully to Peter Parker in high school was that Peter was so stand-offish and uninterested in hanging with the gang that he needed the piss taken. Problem was that the old stories themselves didn't support that viewpoint.

Tacitus said...

There have been numerous studies showing Conservatives are generally happier than Progressives. Why? Well that's an interesting pub question. Maybe the latter are doomed to alway struggle towards distant and perhaps unattainable goals. And the former live primarily in the here and now. In a world where the Great Library of Alexandria is at your keyboard, most of us have material possessions that previous generations could not have imagined, and people are generally nice to each other. In person of course, Larry is right in his supposition that I don't spend much time on the internet.

mcsandberg said...

Is your ocean acidification showing the same thing as https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/?

Larry Hart said...

Tacitus:

numerous studies showing Conservatives are generally happier than Progressives.


You might be correct in thinking that liberals are unhappier because there's always something else that needs fixing. I've got two anecdotes from personal experience* that back that up.

Your assessment of conservatives is a little iffier. People here have been insisting that the reason so many broke for Trump is that they were unhappy with the status quo. If non-MAGA conservatives are so content, they why did they need to vote for a change candidate? And the vibe I got prior to the election from the MAGA conservatives was more outrage than happy.

* Two anecdotes.

First, one of my grandmothers who originated in Hungary or Czechoslovakia (depending on the stage of WWI). She used to talk about the gypsies, who cried in summer because winter was coming.

Second, my first college girlfriend. She was lefty enough to make me sound like Ronald Reagan in comparison. And she just could not have a good time if she knew that someone, somewhere (say in El Salvador) was unhappy. It was from her that I learned that Jewish mother guilt had nothing on Catholic mother guilt.

Treebeard said...

Yes, I think philosophically you can boil down the difference between the two camps as Being vs. Becoming, Heidegger vs. Hegel, ontology vs. teleology. The Conservative doesn’t need to become anything; he already is what he needs to be. For the Progressive, life is defined in terms of what one is becoming, and may in some more ideal world be. Everything in the here and now must be judged in terms of its service to an imaginary future.

For most of human history, the second category of people and way of thinking barely existed, and would have been considered rather weird. But in modern times the weirdos have gotten full of themselves and got the crazy idea that they’re the normals and Conservatives are the aberrations – indeed are the Problem they need to solve. But it takes mass indoctrination to keep this idea going; it’s not stable or sustainable, since humanity is in constant “danger” of reverting to its normal way of Being, hence the frequent moral panic on the part of Progressives when history doesn’t seem to be bending the way they think it must. Meanwhile, Conservatives just laugh at these weirdos and try to enjoy their lives despite them (actually some do more than laugh; they get very agitated and become anti-Progressive activists, which is also mistake imo).

C-plus said...


Re: "Expertism" (your term - not anyone else's)

If you hire new general contractor to renovate your house and takes over a team of expert drywallers and plumbers and painters who are working on your bathroom, your General Contractor is "ruling" the project. Decision making is his (as your representative).

If the expert plumber tells him that in her expert opinion he can't put the showerhead on an outside wall like he wants because it will freeze in the winter, your GC would be a damn fool to ignore that advice. That doesn't mean that the plumber is now "ruling" the project. It means that she's laying out feasible options (adding more insulation, moving the showerhead, etc). Experts provide advice that should be listened to, they don't "rule".

Congress / President / Voters are ruling the country. But they should take advice as to the consequences of their ideas ... and get reasonable options from experts.

So what our host ... F! it - the "nerd" tribe ... is in favor of is not "Rule" by experts - its rule by the people, who are responsible for their actions, but taking advice as to reasonable options / consequences of decisions from experts.

If you've read any of Brin's books, you'll see those themes - rule by the people - responsibility for our actions - expert advice, showing up over and over again. E.g. the most memorable scene of Existence where Tor and her posse of experts work together to prevent that blimp from {... spoiler}.

Similarly, if your GC tells you he's going to cut the number of skilled trades working on the house by 60 or 75% - including firing all the plumbers - on advice of his buddy who "has lots of common sense, and a can-do attitude, and doesn't raise objections like that annoying bitch of a plumber" .. you'd be very, concerned!

So what our host is railing against is that America's newly hired General Contractor, and his buddies eMusk and Ramaswamy have announced they're going to try to cull all the skill trades running America. He - we - aren't trying to protect "rule" by experts .. we're trying to protect expertise.

Larry Hart said...


Everything in the here and now must be judged in terms of its service to an imaginary future.

For most of human history, the second category of people and way of thinking barely existed, and would have been considered rather weird.


I dunno. To me, that sounds an awful lot like Christianity.

Unknown said...

Larry,

A few folks walk away from Omelas, but there's probably a waiting list to get in.

Pappenheimer

Lloyd Flack said...

Everything in the here and now must be judged in terms of its service to an imaginary future.
No, it's looking at the here and now and saying that while it might be fine for me there are people for whom it isn't and we should do something about that. Now there are those who are too ready to frame an issue in terms of oppression but there are also systematic problems that work against whole groups.
And then there other things which are OK now but won't remain that way unless we do something.
I grant that there is plenty of undervaluing of what has been done already.

Tony Fisk said...

I suppose the slowly boiling frog is happy in its pot.

David Brin said...

First, I congratulate the planets for somehow aligning - or slse it's vitamins - so that each of Locum, Treebeard and Tacitus offered us far better cogency, today. Relative, of course. Locum: still squirming nonsense, but far better-parsed squirming nonsense. Treebeard's bit was less nasty - but still nasty - tendentiousness...

...and Tacitus (far-better person that he is) offered us an interesting assertion that is well worth arguing with. Which I now (respecting him!) proceed to do.

Left and right tend to be teleologically mystical. The teleology of the left is 'progressive' in the sense of a belief that everything can get a lot more utopian than it is. MARXIST leftists have the scenario all worked out... a scenario that (unlike Marx's excellent historiography of the past) is fundamentally loopy and that FDR and the Greatest Generatiuon GG drove almost to extinction, by inviting the working classes into a flourishing middle class...

... though todays drooling indiot inheritance brats, who know LITERALLY nothing about class or Marx, are busy reviving him by smashing every wisdom of the GGs...

...but even NON-Marxist leftists believe in human improvability. They are caught though, in an emotional bind! If progress is possible then a lot of it has already happened. And for some - not all - their wretchedly-smug nature makes them think: "If we admit a helluva lot of progress has already happened, then peepul will feel less urgency to moke MORE progress."

THAT is why progressives come across as glum, patronizing and mean-minded, never willing to admit "YAY how far we've come! It proves we can do more and save the world!!"

Refusing to do that is the core thing that drove away many blacks/hispanics who know damned well that things are better, now.

If the left's teleology is limitless progress, the right's is CYCLICAL HISTORY. You all have seen me rage at this horrifically vile nonsense, a cult masturbation that all progress is illusion and those who benefited from hero genrations inevitably become soft, decadent fools bringing the next collapse.

https://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-tytler-calumny-is-democracy-hopeless.html

WHY are conservatives happier? You know damned well how satisfying that teleology is, compared to guilt-tripping lefty progress-ism! You are off the hook! No guilt trips or need to save the world. It's all ordained! Just find or build your ark or prepper bunker and all's great. Party on while the guilt-trippers get crushed!

Sorry Tacitus. There's your happiness.

But there is a third force in American life. scientifically -leaning liberals who don't masturbate to either teleology. We are CURIOUS more than we are fearful of facts. And we'll save the world for both of you.

Don Gisselbeck said...

It's time to quote Frank Wilhoit again: "Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit:
There must be in-groups whom the law protectes but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

C-plus said...

Or then there's GK Chesterton:
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected."

Larry Hart said...

I don't think Tacitus exemplifies the right-wing of that Frank Wilhoit quote or the "The heck with you, Jack; I've got mine," prepper that Dr Brin refers to. He reminds me of no one more than my late father who had an unflagging faith in God and in American institutions, and always expected that everything would eventually work out for the best. He also didn't spend nearly as much time as I do thinking about politics as a force that actually has effects on our personal lives.

And I think that, more than anything else, is the difference in happiness that Tac is talking about. It's not so much liberal vs conservative as it is those who worry about potential threats that are not immediately apparent vs those who don't.

One way of putting it is, "People who worry too much about things that may or may not happen are less happy than those who don't." A different way is, "People who are willfully, blissfully ignorant are happier than those who aren't."

Each of those statements obviously preferences one side over the other. I think a more neutral appraisal is that conservatives' faith allows them to be happier in the present and worrying about the future tomorrow. Liberals tend to worry about the future today.

A health society needs both POVs cooperating.
AND
I'm not sure that happiness dependent on ignoring real danger is entirely a virtue.

Don Gisselbeck said...

I'd love to hear a direct disavowal from Tacitus. Does he, for example, think rich people who commit mass murder by prolonged torture with conspiracy for profit should be punished? For those not paying attention, that would be the executives of W R Grace or Purdue Pharma.

Unknown said...

There's a group of trans individuals and their loved ones here in Spokane WA making plans to assist trans people in ID getting out of their increasingly hostile state. This is not a direct result of the 2024 election (although the 2016 election did change the Supreme Court makeup to make any legal challenges to new ID anti-trans laws nearly impossible). However there are likely to be other changes coming to the US that may damage even Tacitus' calm. We'll see what rolls downhill in 2025.

Pappenheimer

(And for those who say 'sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof', I reply, as an old Boy Sprout, 'be prepared'.)

Tony Fisk said...

"Don't be anxious, or be nervous..."

Tacitus said...

For Don Gisselbeck. Happy to oblige with a direct statement. Calling it a disavowal would not fit, as I don't recall having opined on this matter in the past. Here ya go. If you violate the law and people are harmed, you should face the legal consequences. Rich, poor, motivated by profit, political gain or personal enjoyment matters not, except perhaps in the sentencing phase.

You reference two matters. The W.R. Grace matter is, I assume, in re their asbestos liability. It's been donkey years since I've looked at the literature on this one...much of it derives from WW II shipyard workers exposed to a specific particle size and developing a rare cancer - mesothelioma - at a much higher than expected rate. Since then the literature and legal odyssey has gotten pretty complicated. In my practice years I saw a grand total of two cases of mesothelioma, neither with an obvious asbestos exposure link. One was a nice lady who ran an Italian restaurant.

Regards Purdue Pharma...Those guys pissed me off and good. They sold narcotics, which of course have a legitimate use, but carried out extensive corruption of the FDA, the medical literature and the profession generally to expand the "indications" of their stuff. I can tell you - and Locum may pipe up too - in the ER this caused us no end of difficulty. Everything from addicts/dealers trying to score, to tragic cases of all sorts. Actual acute care suffered. I'd like to see a few former FDA drones and medical literature editors under scrutiny too...

My brief read through of the matter suggests that the execs knew that this could happen but used FDA approval as a shield. It was not sufficient, and they ended up being sued up down and sideways. They got a sweetheart deal in bankruptcy court which would have protected Management from criminal liability.

Thank goodness we have a solid supreme court who struck this down on 27 June of this year. Your appreciation to Justices Gorsuch, Alioto, Thomas, Barrett and Jackson would be appropriate.

Long winded, but that Purdue case got my dander up. In an age where doctors are in general terrified of unfavorable patient reviews there was considerable pressure to just go along with nonsense.... I was, and still am, made of sterner stuff.

DP said...

When did the Democrats lose the White working class?

In 1965 with the passage of the Civil Rights Act.

LBJ admitted that by passing the the CRA, he would lose the South for a generation.

What he did not realize is that he would lose the White working class forever.

Larry Hart said...

Since no one else has commented yet, I'm all in favor of President Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter.

This response by TGF seems to make Biden's pardon into a kind of judo move. Trump is admitting that there is such thing as an improper pardon by the president.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-calls-biden-pardoning-son-hunter-miscarriage-justice/story?id=116360980

Trump called the president's decision a "miscarriage of justice" while pointing to those imprisoned for the Jan. 6 riots on the Capitol in his post to Truth Social on Sunday.

Tacitus said...

I'm not bothered by the pardon. There's less harm in cutting him slack than in pursuing him further. Making it a blanket pardon for everything over the last decade smells a bit off. But whatever. A coda to the Biden era. It would have been better if it were announced right after the Biden-Trump meeting and with at least a grudging statement in its favor by Trump, but politics is what it is.

scidata said...

It just seems a bit self-serving when there's zero consideration for some form of clemency for blackmailees.

Larry Hart said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Larry Hart said...

There's still time.

And there's a fine line between "self-serving" and "defending against personal persecution."

Larry Hart said...

and with at least a grudging statement in its favor by Trump,

"In some shangri-la perhaps, but not here, sir."

Larry Hart said...

Heard on Stephanie Miller's radio show:

"If there was a Department of Babies, he [Trump] would put a dingo in charge of it."

Don Gisselbeck said...

Libby had at least 400 asbestos deaths. I'm happy to hear you are OK with binding the in groups. Does that apply to the Very Stable Clairvoyant 215lb Genius?

scidata said...

Agreed. The pardon is defensible, the lack of clemency isn't. Rome is burning.

Paradoctor said...

Walking away from Omelas is still a cop-out unless you take the kid with you.

Larry Hart said...

I'd say he needs to give a blanket pardon to all DOJ and media personnel for "helping Joe Biden rig the 2020 election."

Larry Hart said...

Our unofficial class structure operates the way a fraternity does. The new pledges have to endure hazing, torture, even potential death in order to become accepted members. After that, they get the pleasure of being among those administering the hazing. No one who has already been through part I and now expects the reward of part II has incentive to change the system.

In America, there was a time when the Irish were a discriminated-against minority. "No Irish need apply," isn't all that old. But they got to be an accepted part of the mainstream and themselves punch down on Italians Jews, and Poles. Thus it has ever been.

Regarding those blacks and Latinos who "know that progress has been made," that alone didn't explain (to me) why they found Trump appealing. But in the context I just described, Trump appeals to those in identity groups who have begun to move up the chain of nth-class citizenship, and who--after suffering through decades of Part I--are ready to enjoy the benefits of having others inhabit a status lower than themselves.

Not everyone is the type who doesn't mind a sadistic system as long as they get to wield the whip, but a not-negligible percentage of humans are exactly like that. Trump appeals to those previously at the bottom of the food chain who are not as interested in equality and justice as they are becoming the ones above others.

Larry Hart said...

Just sayin'

https://www.threads.net/@rudepundit

A fuckton of Democrats and people on the left are misreading the room in criticizing Biden's pardon of his son. Out here in the real world of the base, we either don't give a shit or we're glad he did it. Get over your norms, you prissy assholes.


https://www.threads.net/@stonekettle

Trump: PRESIDENTS ARE ABOVE THE LAW!

SCOTUS: Presidents are above the law

Congress: Presidents are above the law

MAGA Supporters: Presidents are above the law

Republicans: Presidents are above the law

News Media: Experts say President is above law

Americans: That sounds pretty good to a majority of us! Presidents are above the law!

Joe Biden: Okay then. Thanks, I guess.

Everyone: NO! NOT LIKE, HEY, NO, WAIT, YOU CAN'T, BUT, BUT, BUT WHAT ABOUT NORMS!? WHAT ABOUT NORMS?!!!

Tacitus said...

Don G. " I'm happy to hear you are OK with binding the in groups" does not make sense to me. Either I'm not understanding you or you are not understanding me. These are not mutually exclusive. I thought I gave a comprehensive answer on Purdue and at least a short one regards Grace. Please clarify.

Alfred Differ said...

It would make no sense leaving his son to dangle in front of the asshole-elect.

locumranch said...

Purdue was partly responsible for creating the US Opioid Crisis of the 2000s, but the primary culprit was the US medical establishment's hubristic plan to eliminate pain from the human experience (first) by arguing that pain was antithetical to the provision of modern healthcare, (second) by declaring pain to be the '5th vital sign', (third) by a long parade of 'experts' who testified that opiates were incredibly safe and (fourth) by a parade of legal experts who threatened malpractice lawsuits against those physicians who failed to 'appropriately' end human suffering with copious amounts of narcotics.

Like Tacitus, I opposed this practice for reasons both practical and philosophical because (1) pain serves an important biological purpose and (2) opioids are highly dangerous meds that cause addiction & death by respiratory depression, and so my business model suffered from this while less cautious physicians reaped a highly addicted & profitable customer base, and this is only one of the reasons that I now have a deep distrust of both EXPERTS and PROGRESS.

It is therefore my opinion that our fine host grossly underestimates the pernicious effects of both Tribalism (aka 'In Group Preference') and Consensus upon our own professional & expert castes, as this reliance on a mutable & ever changing 'Standard of Care' may lead even our best & brightest people into moral hazard, much like all those 'Good Germans' who supported nazi extermination camps because of a CONSENSUS within their expert & professional castes.

I believe it was Voltaire who said the the following:

“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".

This is yet another reason why I continue to preach & practice extreme skepticism, especially when those inanities come from our most trusted expert &.professional castes who are currently insisting that 'real women have penises, too'.


Best
______

Assuming 'Open Stakes', I'm willing to wager about ANY subject with Dr. Brin now, as long as my financial resources & my ability to bid exceeds both his entire net worth & his credit limit, so I may 'win' every argument by crass financial means, regardless of being right or wrong. Or, better yet, let's settle our arguments with a jury of MY consensual peers, a group of inbred yokels who are extremely loyal to my In-Group, as it's the scientific way to decide a winner. Are there any takers for this Sucker's Bet?

Don Gisselbeck said...

I'm surprised you find Frank Wilhoit hard to understand. Is it because you are part of the in group?

Don Gisselbeck said...

The executives directly involved in the mass murder by prolonged torture with conspiracy for profit have had practically no negative consequences. The people you, and a few others here support are doing all they can to continue this impunity. Are you fine with that?

Tacitus said...

Can anyone help me out here? I'm not able to understand what Don G is talking about. I looked up this Frank Wilhoit he referenced....and I'm still none the wiser. What "in group" is under discussion here? And am I in some fashion "in" it? I thought my response to his question (it was only sort of a question) on the two companies was on point. There must be some issue with what I have often referred to as the problem of Message/Messenger/Common Language. I do my best to answer questions....when they are in fact questions..... (calls for an interpreter!)

Larry Hart said...

He seems to be saying that Republicans are fine with letting the powerful corporations--the "in group"--get away with harming the public without consequence. He's glad you don't approve of the companies doing so, but questions your continued defense of Republicans in that regard.

Tacitus said...

Umm. OK. I did say that I thought the Supremes made a good call when they tossed the sweetheart immunity deal. And my blanket statement that if you break the law you face the consequences seemed pretty clear. The asbestos situation in particular is a legal mess. Companies going bankrupt, long delay between exposure and disease. And even, lets be honest, some fraud. I'm not a lawyer. I favor vigorous prosecution by motivated prosecutors. I don't know Don G beyond this exchange. Don, do you want to go extra legal here? If the courts don't rule as you wish, what further measures are appropriate? BTW in my working days I never owned any pharmaceutical stocks. I don't believe in conflicts of interest like that. I probably did inhale more than my share of asbestos in various pre-medicine jobs. So far so good.

David Brin said...

Did a quick skim. Distilled Locumranch. "I am a weenie coward and sure I'll bet if I get to pick judges who are as kwazy as MEEEE!" I agree with those first five words.

Unknown said...

Just an historical aside - when Louis XIV (Roi de Soleil) received an education 'suited to a prince', he was trained in arms, horsemanship, tactics, dance, and courtly manners. His tutor specifically left out math.

Coincidentally, Louis XIV upon attaining maturity engaged France in interminable wars that bankrupted his kingdom. Boy couldn't balance a checkbook to save his life...

Pappenheimer

Don Gisselbeck said...

It's interesting that people chose not to understand class problems. "Steal the coal from along the railroad, go to prison. Steal the railroad, get a knighthood." Wealthy people who do not directly harm other wealthy people get away with almost anything. The Libby asbestos case is typical. The executives knew about the problem in the 50s and plainly conspired to murder hundreds of their employees to continue making money. That they could manipulate the legal system to escape is not the point of Frank's argument. .

locumranch said...

The executives directly involved in the mass murder by prolonged torture with conspiracy for profit have had practically no negative consequences. The people you, and a few others here support are doing all they can to continue this impunity. Are you fine with that?

Do you see what Don_G is doing here, Tacitus?

He wants to blame (evil profiteering capitalist corporate) executives for the Opiate & Asbestos crises, instead of acknowledging the complicity of our professional managerial class, our governments, our militaries, our regulatory agencies, our medical experts & all of western society.

Don_G wants to blame INDIVIDUALS, even though Purdue did what it did with the complete approval of Medicare, the CDC, the FDA, the AMA & the addiction-prone medical consumer, as posted on the FDA website:

FDA approval of a drug means that data on the drug's effects have been reviewed by CDER, and the drug is determined to provide benefits that outweigh its known and potential risks for the intended population.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/development-approval-process-drugs

Don_G is something of simpleton, I'm afraid, who doesn't understand that 'there are no individual solutions to systemic problems', even though he (as yet another medical consumer) also demands all sorts of medical therapies to ease the suffering of the human condition.

Of course, he only wants the GOOD medications -- and maybe some cancer-free fire retardants to keep his loved ones from burning to death in their vehicles & comfy homes -- but he will never recognize his own complicity in the imperfect human supply chain, especially when blaming an Out-Group is so much more fun.

Btw, I read Dr Brin's response to my criticisms of his 'Wagering' strategy and I concur: As this is his blog, he's the one who is entitled to pick the judges who belong to his In-Group, who believe as he believes & who will support the rightness of his assertions, whereas I'm just an impolite weenie to request the smallest advantage or expect any impartiality whatsoever.


Best

Alfred Differ said...

He sees the military officers as likely neutral. Not in the 'in' or 'out' group. The mechanics of these wagers depends on both of you agreeing to neutral judges. Can you think of any?

Alfred Differ said...

As much as it makes me itch to admit it, I think locumranch has a point when it comes to the Opiate cases. There is a LOT of blame to be shared around.

Also... if that's the source of his distrust of the expert clade... I can see the point. I felt much the same when doctors were (back in the day) testifying that tobacco products didn't cause any harm. Boffins DO serve their masters.

The flipside, though, requires a discussion about babies and bathwater.

Unknown said...

Alfred,

I think that if Loc sticks with his carefully constructed persona, there can be no judges Dr Brin would accept that he can accept, because that would actually resolve something. Which is the closest I am getting to this pointless debate. I'm uninterested in feeding the troll when the leopards are putting on their face-eating best in preparation for 1/6/25.

Pappenheimer

P.S. Likewise, I am steering clear of Hunter Biden's pardon. It does remind me of the movie 'Damn the Defiant', where Alec Guiness as captain of a Napoleonic man-o-war goes to sea with his son aboard as a young ensign, and has to watch the lad mistreated by a sadistic XO, but cannot say anything - until they take a French ship as a prize. The captain appoints his son to command the prize crew and sees him off the ship and to safety. Within the rules.

Unknown said...

Tacitus,

Were you aware that TFCG favors bringing asbestos back for use in buildings? He's been rather vocal about this in the past.

Pappenheimer

Tony Fisk said...

According to the Australian Cancer Council, there were about 300 cases of mesothelioma reported last year alone. The sole known risk factor is exposure to asbestos particles.
The cockwomble isn't wrong when he claims it's safe once applied. The fun starts again when it wears, or it's time to remove it.
So just don't.

Alan Brooks said...

After you wrote that fifty percent of us don’t think we are going to die, I learned to discount your comments somewhat.

Alfred Differ said...

...there can be no judges...

I don't doubt that at all. When I say things like that (trying to be reasonable with the troll) it is usually for other readers to see. Long-timers around here already know the lesson, but new folks might not.

I would have been a little concerned if Biden had NOT pardoned his son here in the waning hours. Loyal attack dogs and "enemies lists" are going to keep the rest of us busy for a while.

Alfred Differ said...

And that is there the insurance industry plays the role of an extra-legal legislature AND judiciary. 8)

Tacitus said...

I'm not sure who or what TFCG is. I think the discussion on oxycontin and asbestos has been productive in the sense that it does cast a light on the fallibility of experts. Naturally they should not be scorned across the board. But a healthy degree of suspicion is appropriate, especially in situations where power and money are involved. Locum made, rather bluntly, the same point I did. For a while the FDA, medical literature, insurance companies and other authorities were on board with wider use of extended release narcotics for, well, all sorts of things. How things got that way involved plenty of lobbyists, consultants, experts....and thinly disguised payoffs. Rx more of our stuff and get free vacations and other valuable prizes. How things worked out.....I have stories to tell, but also a residual sense of Doctor/Pt confidentiality that makes even outlined anecdotes a bit dodgy.

House report on Covid dropped today. I think that will have some additional interesting things to ponder regards experts...

Tony. About 3 to 4k cases mesothelioma in the rather larger US per annum. Interesting discussions on role of genetics in who gets it, and how long it takes. Given the near ubiquity of the stuff in previous decades. I learned a few things looking into this question. As I said, it had been years since I had any reason to think about it.

T

Alan Brooks said...

No question.
When—if—Hunter had been released from prison, he might have ended his days working in the big laundry room at Mar-a-Lago.
January 6th won’t be ‘so bad’, it’ll be practically a national holiday for MAGAs.
Starting Jan 21st will be the... [don’t want to think about it.]

Alan Brooks said...

This article calls Ukraine a quote backwater kleptocracy. Does the author think the same of the Baltics?:

https://spectator.org/lets-put-hunter-under-oath-now/

Unknown said...

Oh, sorry TCFG = The Convicted Former Guy (i.e. the soon-to-be prez)

Pappenheimer

Don Gisselbeck said...

The executives of W R Grace knew in the fifties that they were killing workers. They continued after meetings about the problem. That is conspiracy to commit mass murder. The same applies to Purdue Pharma. That laws protect the wealthy from crimes does not diminish their guilt.
Has locum commented on his confident Gaetz prediction?

scidata said...

One of the best scenes in "Erin Brockovich" (2000) was when she offered a drink of water to the corporate stooge lawyer, saying it was from the contaminated area being contested. Such a ploy would likely shorten many similar cases.

Don Gisselbeck said...

I can't delete for some reason. I'll try again. "That laws protect the wealthy from any consequences for their crimes does not diminish their guilt".

David Brin said...

Tacitus claims his aim is to "cast a light on the fallibility of experts. Naturally they should not be scorned across the board. But a healthy degree of suspicion is appropriate, especially in situations where power and money are involved."

Yes. Every single part of that is true and reasonable... !

....which is a core trick of the Mad Right, these days. Take a sentence that by itself is true, and use an implied emphasis to undermine all respect for all fact-using castes by shifting the IMPLICATION from:

"In general, one is best-off starting with experts in any given field, who have studied intensely and competitively, while alert for rare but potentially important cases where normal, scientific questioning may have lapsed or failed due to inadequate information or competition. Questioning is good and a diligent amateur can sometimes catch an error, which respectworthy experts often welcome."

to:


"The baseline is that nerds are fucked-up boffins, monomanaically focused on being smug and patronizing and defending the core paradigm, who must be scrupulously and severly supervised by my own favorite elites, who will then tell me (via my "own reserch") which experts to believe. Above all, experts and boffins must be disqualified from getting involved in policy."

While locum might have the basic smidgeon of honesty to admit that well-describes his agenda, Tacitus - by far the better and smarter human being - will likely deny that's his agenda. Even though it blatantly is.

Allow me to re-express. We all know that:

-- Being smart and knowing a lot does not automatically make you wise.

Sure. A fundamental meme of the West. And in Vivi Tomorrows I lay out how extensively Question Authority has been taught.

But when a Foxite SAYS that... even using those exact words... the message is:

-- Being smart and knowing a lot automatically makes you unwise.

The fundamental here is ZERO SUM thinking - which for a decade has repeatedly been proved to be the core, flatland sensorium of locum and treebeard and of Red Americans who saw their best and brightest children get university -educated and come home as... Democrats.

Tacitus, I'm afraid is also a flatlander. Admitting that his side has gone stark, jibbering insane would implicitly mean he must automatically be a Democrat.

Friend, that's NOT true. You can leave that festering den of vipers and still be a conservative. In fact, it is the only way to remain one.

---

Hell, while I am at it... I have offered to have wager judges who are RANDOMLY picked from among not-overtly/majorly-political, retired senior military officers. Randomly selected. To which L would reply "EXACTLY! They'll be biased for Brin!"

To which I must, alas, agree. The smartest, most grownup and utterly responsible, fact-oriented men and women in the history of all humanity. They won't be biased for me. But for facts.

Tacitus said...

Papenheimer. I'm sure a real estate developer would have some opinions on asbestos. David, seems like you are taking a few deep hits off the Indignation Bong this morning. Hey, free country.

David Brin said...

Tacitus, your ability to shrug off a tsunami of reasons for indignation. Real and verifiable reasons.

And my Wager Challenge stands as a fundamental test of whether a man is a sapient person who is possessed of honor and a willingness to test what's right.

David Brin said...

My suggestion for Giving Tuesday- how your philanthropy $ can be targeted in ways that help to achieve the world you want. If you have a dozen things you feel should be done, there’s an NGO trying for each of them. Please read. Save the world, your way.

https://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/proxyactivism.html

Larry Hart said...

@scidata, the same point was made when Marge Simpson served Mr Burns a slice of the three-eyed fish. "Burns Won't Swallow Own Story!"

Larry Hart said...

Pappenheimer:
Likewise, I am steering clear of Hunter Biden's pardon.

Well, I'm not. I am sickened by all the Democrats and liberals and newspaper editorials coming out of the woodwork to condemn President Biden's pardoning of his son to head off a persecution by the Trump DoJ.

Before I had heard any backlash one way or another, my first thought was, "It's about time."

I agree with the Rude Pundit yesterday that the talking heads and speechifiers are reading the room incorrectly.

Donald Trump's pardons which he gives so that people can commit crimes on his behalf are a "Fuck you" to the justice system itself. Biden's pardon of Hunter is a "Fuck you" to Trump. Anyone who can't see the difference has nothing to say to me.

Larry Hart said...

https://www.threads.net/@stonekettle

Shut up with this "Biden just gave Trump license to do whatever he wants" BS

You know who gave Trump license to do whatever he wants? Merrick Garland, who moved so slow and carefully he didn't move at all. The Supreme Court, who gave Trump total immunity. Congress, who abdicated their Constitutional duty and became Trump's spooge sock. And most of all, VOTERS, the ones who directly pulled the lever for fascism and the ones who didn't show up.

Biden is about the only one who tried to stop Trump

Alan Brooks said...

Trump has arms long enough that he could’ve made Hunter do hard
time in the Slammer.
Joe did what he had to.

David Brin said...

The new FBI director, with almost zero law enforcement experience, has vowed to shut the agency down and turn FBI HQ into a "Museum to the Deep State"... which if honest will be empty, since no assertion was ever anything but hot air. So, Tacitus... near any red lines yet?

The new Defense Secretary thinks 'germs are fake" and "I haven't washed my hands in a decade." And his own mom called him a "massive abuser of women." The Director of National Intelligence will be a puttative Kremlin agent. And if it isn't yet proved... OMG can't you pick a professional who doesn't stink of circumstantial evidence for Kremlin influence?

I could go on, but the fundamental is that there are ZERO adults, so far. Not even a token one. Oh but *I* am on an indigation high.

Lena said...

Given that The Grope won by such a thin margin (around 1.6%), I'm not sure how much of the problem is the Democrats performing badly (as they have for a very long time) and how much of it is Western Civilization performing badly. Fascism isn't only on the rise in the US.

My son is taking Intro to Cultural, so we've been chatting about this stuff recently. To explain the epic/etic distinction I gave him the classic Marvin Harris sacred cow interpretation. If you don't know it, Harris (the guru of Cultural Materialism) explains why cattle are sacred in India in terms of them performing another function more valuable than just barbecue. The heavy soils in most parts of India require strong traction animals to plow. India has had periodic famines throughout its history. In a time of famine, a family of farmers might be tempted to eat the cattle they use to plow their fields. If they do that, though, they can't plant their crops next year when the rains come back. Don't eat the cow, a few family members starve. Eat the cow, the whole family dies next year. By making cattle sacred to a very high-level god, people learn to take the restriction against eating them very seriously. If a Hindu so much as touches a steak he feels like he has been corrupted (ritual pollution).

Of course, if you ask a Hindu why cattle are sacred, they say it's because the god Brahma declared that they are.

Harris was convinced that his (etic) explanation is the right explanation, and no doubt most Hindus think that their (emic) explanation is correct. In reality, both are correct, but in different senses. The Hindu interpretation is what motivates Joe-average Hindu to steer clear of McDonalds. The etic explanation could easily be how it got started.

Now the really big innovation that made the US different at the time the Constitution was cobbled together is the Bill of Rights, but most especially the First Amendment, which established individual freedom of religion. Before then, Western Civilization had been wracked with bloody wars and carnage over official state-sanctioned religions. Today most of the West has come to accept religious pluralism as a normal feature of civilization.

That leaves us with what might be something missing. Religions tend to motivate followers by promising wondrous things in the afterlife if you obey, and horrific, inescapable punishments if you don't. Since the government is no longer attached to a specific god they can scare and threaten people with, than a lot of people are left with only etic explanations. If you went back to 12th Century BC India and talked the Brahmins into not declaring cattle sacred, then whether to eat or not eat your traction animals during a famine becomes an individual choice, and some farmers, likely many farmers, will choose to take their chances and fire up the grill rather than watching a couple of their children die before their eyes.

I think this is where we are today. It's a dismaying thought that humans do such a poor job of understanding even themselves that they can't put two and two together and get on with life without having to hurl supernatural threats at one another. An important question to answer, though, is how much of this is biology, and how much is logic?

Paul SB

Unknown said...

Paul,

One of Marvin Harris's points was that the REALLY old vedas show traces of the heroes quite enjoying beef, thank you, suggesting that the change to not eating cattle at all was in response to either the gods changing their minds or some other social stimulus - and such a stimulus would have to be pretty strong to overcome human craving for hamburgers.

Pappenheimer

Alan Brooks said...

We can’t answer such a question re biology.
We do know that even here—far from India and its cows—there’re some citizens not only exercised about the Civil War, but also fighting it—after 16 decades.

Unknown said...

I'd think of it as more social evolution than some sort of decision by the populace. I think Harris made that point.

Pappenheimer

P.S. reviewing the period of the 30 years war and there is good reason for ditching the holy war concept due to the horrors of that war. 1618-1648 still ranks up there with 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 in terms of VERY BAD THINGS if you interview Germans.

locumranch said...

Although I admire Don_G's rather archaic take on Guilt & Innocence, I must take issue with his moral relativism, as he seems to apply Schrödinger's theories to Personal Responsibility by selectively blaming the supplier while absolving the consumer, the collective, the regulatory agencies & the elected government, whereas I tend to concern myself equally with actual personal responsibility & the system issues inherent in regulatory capture.

Bertrand Russell addressed this moral inversion back in 1937 with his "Superior Virtue of the Oppressed" essay, and things have gotten much worse since then, as any self-identified 'victim' (of vice, oppression, repression, debility & what have you) can now claim the moral high-ground & fancy themselves to be of 'Superior Virtue', which (in turn) allows the addict, the socially inept, the nerd, the drunkard, the morbidly obese & the all-around loser to blame everyone but themselves for their own moral & social failings.

This 'Superior Virtue of the Oppressed' ploy is very same argument that our fine host invokes every time he trots out his so-called 'War on Smart People', as he essentially argues that superior intellect & ability represent social disadvantages (disabilities) that result in oppression, and this is perhaps why our host rankles so at the suggestion that smart people may be 'unwise' or 'disabled' in any way.

Otherwise, I am at a complete loss as to why our fine host continues to insist that our expert, professional & fact-using castes are somehow incapable of 'making mistakes' like other humans, even though these experts, professionals & fact-users are all imperfect **human beings** who naturally make mistakes just like any other human does.

Yet, it's so typical for the modern progressive to deny their own humanity when they deny their own capacity to make mistakes. See 'hubris'.


Best
_______

When it comes to wagers on topics like Vaxx Mandates & Climate Change, there can be no fair-equal-level competitive playing without a neutral judge & there can be no neutral judge when the offered wager rejects the Antivaxx & Climate Change Denier's perspective out-of-hand, so to accept one of Dr Brin's wagers is to 'wage a battle that has already been lost'.

Trot out some CC judges like John Clauser & Vaxx judges like RFK Jr & we'll talk.

mcsandberg said...

locumranch

You might be interested in this https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/p/politicization-of-the-american-university
and this https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/p/partisan-professors

Alan Brooks said...

Your second paragraph is interesting: you are writing on ‘victimists’ who blame everyone but themselves for their flaws?

Puzzling though, that all the years that you were giving advice to your patients, few of them followed your advice.
Was it not only them, was it also the manner in which you attempted to communicate with them? Going by what you write at CB, one might answer Yes.

David Brin said...

Just more jibber-jabber now. Somebody tell me when he has atty-escrowed $$ stakes over any of his loony assertions.

Lena said...

I can think of a stimulus that could do it - a prolonged period of alternating drought and extreme rain.

Paul SB

Lena said...

The 30-Years War was a pretty nasty time. Remember the Hellburner of Antwerp? You could hear it 50 miles away.

The thing about social evolution is that it consists of numerous decisions made by members of the populace. Likely the taboo started slow and was only codified into law after it had spread to a substantial chunk of the population.

Paul SB

Lena said...

Isn't it interesting how he rejects neutral arbiters, then turns around and proposes very clearly biased ones?

Alan Brooks said...

He whines to the degree which the victimologists he references do.

Alfred Differ said...

Alan Brooks,

I know a doctor who explained to me once that about 75% of his interactions with patients were direct or indirect consequences of obesity. His advice, therefore, was largely the same. For acute issues, the patient had to lose weight. Calories in < Calories out. For chronic issues, more of the same but with extra attention to the failing joint/organ/what-not and more desperation in the need to lose whatever was immediately aggravating the chronic issue.

Almost all of his patients wanted a magic pill... that didn't exist. Most of his patients rejected his advice and took to doctor shopping. Needless to say, he saw us as complicit in our own woes. And... he wasn't far wrong when he made the mental shift from 'most patients' to 'all patients'.

The guy could be quite rude in person, but on the job he was generally interested in saving lives. He DID try. I got to see him in other settings and he wore two faces. One was for trying. The other was the realist.
--------
If few people followed our rancher's professional advice, he certainly would have good company. Problem is... his sense of realism when applied too broadly is a form of defeatism. Even learned helplessness. There's a limit to be applied to generalizing the lessons before one becomes a drag on the small chance we have of finding solutions.

Tim H. said...

An encouragement for moderation is what I hoped for in a Harris administration, admittedly, not exceeding the point where it might suppress donations, or earn them the active malice of AIPAC*. Moderation of our footprint on the environment and in the fervent belief of the "Elect of Mammon" would go a long way in reducing the number of blunt objects in reach of the (Formerly) GOP.
*IMHO, nothing short of a large munition would've discouraged Benny from taking the proffered bait and being played like a violin, which secured the non-participation of sufficient voters to elect "He who must not be named politely".

Larry Hart said...

If "Benny" is Netanyahu, what makes you think he was "played"? He wanted TFG to be the next president.

If you're referring to someone else, I don't get it.

Tim H. said...

Benny's reaction to the October atrocity created what Hamas and Putin wanted, the tarnishing of Israel for the foreseeable future. The triumph of "Drumph!" was a bonus.

Larry Hart said...

Alfred Differ:

Most of his patients rejected his advice and took to doctor shopping. Needless to say, he saw us as complicit in our own woes.


As a liberal in 21st Century America, I know the feeling.

Larry Hart said...

I admit, I have trouble keeping the players straight around Netanyahu. He seems to be aligned with Putin, who is also aligned with Iran even though Netanyahu hates Iran.

Hamas probably didn't want Trump's election, but Putin and Bibi did.

Lena said...

I think the biology question can be looked at in multiple ways. I’m almost finished listening to a story about an alien sent to Earth to see if they might be able to live with those people after their star cooks off in a supernova. The alien, who was born in a human body, makes all sorts of wry, stinging, sometimes profound observations about humans, as you might expect. They are the kinds of observations that most people would never think about or notice because they are so deeply ingrained in human life, but they make some very pointed observations about being human. Unfortunately the author doesn’t make any effort to distinguish the biological from the cultural.

Some of the biology I’m thinking about are things like the massive energy drain the human brain imposes on its body, and how those very hungry brains are inclined- like the caterpillar - to bite through things quickly without getting more than a tiny taste. Think in terms of Kanheman’s System 1and System 2. Humans are clearly capable of being rational, but it’s abundantly clear that they are neither very consistent about it nor especially good at it.

Then there are structural issues regarding those brains. One example would be the fact that humans have an amygdala on each side, but one responds only to fear signals related to their own species, while the other works for anything else that could require a fear/anger response. That’s a whole lot of processing power going to the human fear of each other. This is how you can live in a city of 10 million people and feel desperately alone. It’s also why so many people are so trapped in playing the status game. That kind of architecture is likely a result of something huge, a near extinction event that humans only survived by retreating into tribalism.

But different cultures have dealt with these instincts in different ways, so humans have some capacity to adapt and change. Will they be able to do that before they cause their own extinction event?

Paradoctor said...

Tim H. 5:40:
Hamas did indeed play Netanyahu like a fiddle, but they miscalculated two things:
* They overestimated how much of a damn the rest of the Islamic world cares about them (in truth, none at all, except as disposable catspaws).
* They overestimated how long fickle world opinion will care about them (about 18 months, like all other fads, which will be up next February).
Biden promoted an Israel/Hezbollah cease-fire, which contains the conflict for now, and come February, when the demented day-one dictator takes office, the world will have other things to worry about.

World interest in Russia/Ukraine persists because in addition to weak and fickle forces like global compassion, there are also issues of money and power.

Paradoctor said...

I stand corrected: global interest in Gaza will dissipate by next May. The IDF has until then to not commit any novel crimes against humanity; the ongoing crimes will do.

Larry Hart said...

My interest in Gaza dissipated when their fervent defenders here in the US insisted that they'd rather have Trump in office than a Democrat.

Now, they can have their cake and eat it too, as it were.

C-plus said...

{Larry Hart: I admit, I have trouble keeping the players straight around Netanyahu. He seems to be aligned with Putin, who is also aligned with Iran even though Netanyahu hates Iran.}

As Meryl Streep and Baldwin could explain ... It's Complicated.

From the start of the cold war onwards, the USSR's main policy goal in the middle east has been to cause shit. In 1948, this meant supporting Israel (first country to sell Israel fighter aircraft was communist Czechoslovakia). From 1950 onward, it meant the USSR supporting various Arab dictators, rebels, terrorist groups - basically anyone who would sign up to cause shit. And Putin's been following the same playbook for years. So Russia supports most of Israel's enemies (provides weapons to Iran and Assad regime in Syria, and have started supporting the Houthis, for example).
https://www.stimson.org/2024/russia-iran-ties-extend-to-the-houthis-of-yemen/

But Netanyahu and Putin have a working relationship that seems to be limiting the degree of conflict between Russia and Israel. Despite very widespread popular support for Ukraine, Netanyahu avoided direct government-to-government support of Ukraine (while giving a nod and a wink to the hundreds of Israeli volunteers who joined the Ukrainian army in 2022/23), and hasn't tried to shoot down Russian arms shipments to the region, and Putin has, so far, not provided Iran with its latest generation of aircraft or air defense systems.

https://thedefensepost.com/2024/11/10/netanyahu-diplomacy-putin/

Alan Brooks said...

Putin has said he wants the Baltics: he isn’t bluffing, is he? If he slices up and digests Ukraine, he might go for part or all of the Baltics.
Or he could decide to leave such up to his successor—the Russians look way ahead.
What we are doing in Ukraine is delaying or derailing the Russian timetable, by putting out of commission Russian (and allied) personnel.
A Russian killed/injured/captured/defected,missing, is one less Russian who can invade another nation.
Putin has minimal and maximal goals, shifting, the trajectory being a renewed empire that vill last a tausand jahre.

locumranch said...

I've made my main points about the expert castes & wagering, the first being that the expert castes are as fallible & corruptible as are all humans and the second being that wagering with our fine-but-partisan host is a sucker's bet, so one can expect less 'jibber-jabber' going forward.

I will therefore be brief, starting with a definition for the term 'neutrality' and ending with a realistic assessment of one's chance of success in a few common endeavours:

Neutrality (noun)
The state or character of being impartial, indifferent, uninvolved, uninterested or undecided in any particular dispute or outcome
...

Which means that any expert, professional or fact-using 'wager-worthy' judge of our fine host's choosing is unlikely to be 'neutral' in any true sense of the word. End stop.

One's "chance of success" (or, COS for short) tends to vanishingly small, statistically speaking, in many laudable endeavours, as in the case of one's 1st marriage having a 59% COS, one's 2nd marriage having a 40% COS, one's 3rd marriage having a 27% COS, one's pure research project having about a 15% COS, one's tech startup having a 10% COS and a physician's attempt at reforming an alcoholic having less than a 5% COS ...

Yet, life goes on and one keeps trying to achieve one's goals until one finally stops trying to achieve one's goals, but not a moment sooner.


Best
_______

Thanks to McS for his link to https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/ , as it confirms my own observations from a stint at a major university hospital. The issue here is a bureaucratic benchmark that medicine calls the 'Standard of Care' which considers any dubious behaviour to be 'moral' as long as everyone is doing it, and this includes the expression of all sorts of hate & intolerance towards any mob-agreed-upon target, as in the case of any 'bad' conservative, straight white male, big pharma executive or Israeli because humans are viciously tribal herd animals, just like chickens. Peck, peck, peck.

Unknown said...

The Musk is making noises about buying Hasbro.

If this happens, he will control Dungeons and Dragons.

The apocalypse is nigh.

Pappenheimer

Alan Brooks said...

“Fine-but-partisan host” is backhanded compliment—damning with faint praise.

Dubious behaviour can also include chronic negativity: were you as negative with your patients as you are at CB? If you were, you’d have been abandoning the Hippocratic oath you took. If you took it.
Nothing against you; one knows what one is trained to know—and you were trained as a physician. As someone who bears no animosity towards you, I advise you not to display so blatantly your lack of training in philosophy, political science and sociology, merely for starters. Your comprehension of pluralism strongly appears to be substandard.

Also, you are a poor-fair writer.

Slim Moldie said...

Alan B,

I'm friends with an alcoholic optician who worked at wallmart before retirement. He is a generous and kind soul. The drunkenness when it appears can be off-putting and he gets judged for it. One day I learned he lost his teenage child in a car accident (which didn't involve him.) This tragedy and the onset of the alcoholism also broke his first marriage. Another aspect of the drunkenness is when he gets really wet, the barriers come down and he airs the grievances that are repressed all day. Once while drunk he started reenacting his work situation at wallmart--trying to provide people with glasses. It was unworldly because he played himself as the polite professional employee with the reluctant argumentative penny-pinching customer and then would transition to the repressed version of himself who COULDN'T come out at work, yelling "look at you! You big asshole! Yes sir, the discount rack is over here sir. What's your f-ing problem! These are your god damn EYES here! This is freaking walmart and you're trying to get lower! Why don't you give a f==k about your eyes! I'm sorry sir, we don't have anything below this quality for those lenses...

People are complicated.

Alan Brooks said...

Whoever said people are not complicated. As for Loc, all I’m writing to him—as they say in the ghetto—is:

“You ain’t no Delphic Oreo”

Larry Hart said...

From columnist Eric Zorn's "winning quip" contest (formerly "winning tweet") :

In the U.K. we celebrate Thanksgiving as the day we managed to ship all our paranoid religious fundamentalists off to another continent. — @wildethingy

Lena said...

Alan Brooks,

You wrote, "Dubious behaviour can also include chronic negativity..."
- Please consult "Why Does He Do That: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft.

https://www.amazon.com/Bancrofts-Why-Does-That-Controlling/dp/B0037W1NU4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3O855AWKYP5U3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.FYxGVG_QBwbQIEWnExysCZgKZZ2g9Sh-YeO4jr5INOZVQs69dLyYtaVBoRby0iqv5CayK6HBcK7EgqBAv3LM-xL0m5wXSCEKiRvBZUxp-7rJh9r2w7EYONPue1uC81Y3e9fBdAbdnSriIT1SR7LKmvS83G3yrhz5DCNw26p9VEBrnUVLcMWLCKPenbFuyg-Mp60wxiEUH8psK6_iYQiDeO9uusXxU-tOb6NG5ge25FY.KWA9gg2IYz-gUpmMYk_iq6nvw2LY3eNkq3kkEBLdVgU&dib_tag=se&keywords=why+does+he+do+that&qid=1733409103&sprefix=why+he+%2Caps%2C202&sr=8-2

Paul SB

Tacitus said...

I do sometimes find the discourse on CB contains a high level of what I call "anti-Carnegie particles". As if the actual intent is to lose friends and anti-influence people! But that's just mostly the nature of internet communications in a siloed age.

Flypusher said...

So the current major headline is the apparent targeted killing of the CEO of United Healthcare. Obviously not all the facts are in, but applying Occam’s razor to what is currently known, it could be related to someone being denied coverage for a serious medical condition. Ain’t no one more dangerous than someone with nothing to lose. To paraphrase Chris Rock (on the assumption that this is the motive), I don’t condone what he did but I get why he did it. For profit healthcare was not a good idea.

The only thing that might shock me is that this hasn’t happened sooner. Medical debt is the #1 cause of financial ruin for Americans.

matthew said...

Regarding the CEO killing, the most striking thing to me is the sheer number of people I hear approving of the killing, both online and IRL. All across the political spectrum as well. It is hard to not see the widespread approval as a portent.

Mme. Guillotine is hungry in America, methinks.

Also, we will not see many billionaires without security details going forward. The account I read had detail of an online conference between many heads of security to review after the killing. An attendee pointed out the lack of security.
Incidentally, I wonder how long it will be until the first kidnapping-by-detail in the US? My over/under would be two years. I know it is common in other parts of the world, but jealous / desperate security detail betrayals are not common here. Yet.

Hellerstein said...

We think alike. When I heard of pro-Gaza/Hamas protesters blocking roads and bridges, I said "how to lose friends and not influence people". Calling that "anti-Carnegie particles" is ingenious. Maybe I'll adopt it.

Flypusher said...

The social fabric is fraying. The fact that GoFundMe accounts for the purpose of funding lifesaving medical care even exist in the richest nation in history is an obscenity.

Mme. Guillotine Is notoriously undiscriminating in whose blood she’ll drink. Not keen on an American sequel to the French reign of terror.

Hellerstein said...

Brin:
I recommend this modification to your wagering tactic: make the stakes be one cent. Remember how Romney alienated voters by publicly offering, in a debate, a $10,000 bet? That branded him a clueless tycoon. But anyone can afford one cent; and when they run away, how much more discrediting! "They wouldn't even risk a penny!"

David Brin said...

Hellerstein I understand your proposal, though alas it ruins the whole Wagering Gambit.

(1) I will not go to all the effort of lining up attorneys and adjudication panels without incentive of already-escrowed stakes. The MAGAs – for all their macho hot air – always run away, having wasted my time. In fact, wasting my time is what they are in it for.

(2) The act of escrowing stakes will show the opponent’s confidence and willing belief in the validity of his position.

(3) If they actually believe their side of a particular wager, they should want MY money! MY stakes should be incentive for them to step up, out of pure self-interest. ***Let me re-iterate that point because it is central!***. If they actually believe the crap they spew, they will not be deterred by the stakes, but DRAWN by them!


(4) Romney did the republic horrific harm that day. A very-very rich man apparently trying to bully a merely very rich man. (One who could easily afford $10,000.) Romney hurt us SO badly, by giving people that example to point at when chickening out. As you just did.

(5) If a particular yammerer cannot come up with $5000, then POOL with OTHERS! Confidently step up, backed up by facts, take my money and split up the profits!

(6) They are all about macho, macho, macho. And hence, showing them to be weenie-coward blowhards IS the whole POINT. The fact that not one, ever, ever, ever has had the manly guts and cojones to step up – the way that an actual man would do, in my dad’s generation – and back up his hot air with cash on the bar – and instead writhes and squirms like no-balls locum -- is the core outcome.

And if it were more than just me, doing this, that lesson might actually spread.

WHY don’t others do it? Simple. Liberals may be on the pro-fact side. But they’re also terrified of the slim chance of losing. They don’t have confidence enough in things that are blatantly true. It’s why I have offered lists of assertions that are UTTERLY proved… and if proved show that today’s Right has gone completely loco. And yet, I’ve seen no one out there using the list.

And that’s why we lose.

David Brin said...

Which brings us to Tacitus: Come on Tacitus. What you take as “anti-Carnegie” aggression is something more fundamental. It’s you preaching the modern modern meme that:

“All assertions have equal value and therefore cannot be disproved. And hence, I am free to assert anything I wish. And you demanding proof is a kind of rude bullying.”

Hence, the polite – “Carnegie” – thing to do, among friends, is for each of us to take turns offering our opposing assertions, letting each of us then shrug and smile while muttering ‘you’re delusional, but still my friend.’

While that is clearly an outgrowth of American values of freedom of speech and non-dogmatism, it has been lately mobilized FOR dogmatism and to make freedom of speech gelded and useless at achieving its actual purpose… it’s most important purpose… the spotlighting and eventual elimination of falsehoods.

Please dig it my friend (even though you are blatantly not reading this):

1. This is Contrary Brin. It’s right there in the title. And I’ve made clear that fact-based reciprocal accountability… or at least getting out of m’bation incantations… is what we do here.

2. The things you assert here AREN’T generally factually false, at the sentence level. But they are part of the general apporoach: “if I offer a teensy counter-example, it means YOUR overall Big Facts have been canceled!

You thus relentlessly imply that there are no travesties or red lines that will ever, ever, ever cause you to admit that you must re-evalutate old loyalties, in the face of blatantly insane treason.

3. Moreover, since you never, ever, ever directly address anything that I say, in response to you… but instead always bemoan courtesy and style, it’s pretty clear that I waste my time and you aren’t even ever, ever gonna read the actual sentences I type for their content – like this one that I am typing now.

Do we all here LIKE you? Absolutely! You are also an archetype conservative ‘ostrich’. And pulling hard to try to help you get your head out of the… hole… is only making your dig deeper while calling us rude.

But it is guys like you who could have saved us all, in Wisconsin. You might still. But won't.

David Brin said...

A 7.0 quake is darn big.

Larry Hart said...

matthew:

Mme. Guillotine is hungry in America, methinks.


The billionaire class attempting to subvert democracy have a very significant blind spot. Do they not realize that the whole point of democracy and fair/just rules and courts are what keeps violent revolution at bay?

It's bad enough when they actually aspire to be "a rich man in a poor country," surrounded by cold, hungry, desperate people who see "taking their stuff" as their only means of survival. But to intentionally add to the percentage of the population in that circumstance? The term "critical mass" comes to mind.

Alfred Differ said...

I don’t think that will work. The wager isn’t just about proving someone is a coward. With money on the line, people paying attention often shift how they analyze. If the amount at risk is significant the shift can be dramatic.

Larry Hart said...

@Dr Brin,

I think people don't do the wager/lawyers/escrow thing because it's just not the way normal people think about a bet. It's much more usual to slam a ten or twenty dollar bill on a bar and go, "This says you're full of shit!" No one in that situation says, "Let's call our attorneys, set up an escrow fund with an accountant, identify some judges, ...". That, more than the size of the bet, comes across as elitist--something only someone with plenty of spare time and lawyers and accountants would even think of, let alone do.

And because that is so outside the kinds of things people regularly think about, it also sounds like a mug's game. Like you're leading them into a trap that they can't quite perceive but know that it must be there.

When I took you up on the bet as to whether DJT would survive until Election Day, I was not suspicious of your motives, nor did I think I would lose the bet (much as I wanted to). It was a gentleman's bet. I agreed to donate to your tip jar (and still will if something happens before Jan 20), and I honestly don't care whether you pay or not. The point was to demonstrate how certain I was that the universe would not give us the "win" of his dying prematurely.

But I would not have gone through with the bother of lawyers and escrow accounts and judges, even though I was not suspicious of a trap. Frankly, that takes the fun out of it.

Alfred Differ said...

Heh. I know the feeling too. In the case of the election, however, they’d point out that they didn’t ask us in the first place. They needed it… but horses led to water etc.

matthew said...

Billionaires doing this shit in the most-heavily armed nation in history are remarkably foolish, too. Critical mass + heavily armed = how many bodyguards do you need?

Since the killer in this case was dumb enough to get a drink at Starbucks sans mask, I think we can rule out a professional hit.
Plus the shell casings found at the scene had healthcare-related messages on them.
I think this killing was directly related to the business of the dead CEO.

Flypusher said...

Relevant:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_j9L2ppuANc

I think it also boils down to what you think the primary purpose of money should be. Some people see security and/or an opportunity to help. Others see power and status. While I don’t regard anyone as completely incorruptible, I do believe that there is a spectrum of susceptibility.

Larry Hart said...

My sentiments exactly...

@michellegoldberg.bsky.social‬ :

I can't bring myself to be even a little mad about Biden pardoning Hunter. The values and norms he'd been trying to uphold were obliterated by American voters last month. Why sacrifice your son to a dead god?

Larry Hart said...

Trump already pardoned Sheriff Joe Arpaio and Michael Flynn, plus some war criminals. The notion that President Biden's pardon of Hunter opens some kind of floodgates of permission that wasn't already there is absurd.

locumranch said...

Was in Northern California during this morning's 7.0 earthquake, witnessed the subsequent activation of nationwide US Emergency Alert System by NOAA:

TSUNAMI WARNING FOR OREGON & CALIFORNIA COAST!

San Francisco schools under evacuation orders! Evacuate all coastal areas! Go to higher ground! Flee for your lives! No time to waste!

Then, it's "Oops, never mind, sorry about that & false alarm", our NOAA experts say, as they advise us to faithfully obey all of their future expert judgements 'ad infinitum'.

Yet, we of the general public are not amused by these little progressive authoritarians who continually "Cry Wolf" when the inclination strikes them, which is probably the reason why the Left (Matthew, Flypaper, Robspierre) and the Right (Danton & I) are increasingly on the same page in regard to the Guillotine.

Yet, time flies -- I must absent myself for 4 to 6 wks -- so Good Luck & God Bless.


Best

matthew said...

Dumb-ass idiot doesn't want to believe tsunami warnings? Think of it as evolution in action.

Lena said...

Back in the 1990s, seismologists in China predicted that a huge earthquake was going to devastated the Sichuan region, and evacuated millions of people. After a few months, not much happened, seismically speaking, so a lot of annoyed people went back to their homes, mad at the government.

In 2008 the same seismologists predicted another devastating earthquake in the same area, but the government decided not to evacuate the area. They announced the prediction, but very few people bothered to evacuate, given what happened a decade earlier. Shortly thereafter a mag 6.2 hit, killing 87,000 people.

Sorry about the false alarm ...

Paul SB

Tony Fisk said...

False alarms are worth a few grumbles. I suspect I know which tack loci would have taken if scientists had said 'not to worry'.

Melbourne isn't that prone to earthquakes, although the last tremor (centered in Latrobe Valley about 100km south east, 3 years ago) was an eyebrow quirking 6.0.

Larry Hart said...

The deep state is tricking them into ignoring warnings so they'll be caught flat-footed. We communists all know the secret phrases that tell us when the warnings are real. The others are just crying wolf on purpose.

Hellerstein said...

CBS quake report:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZURGym2BjYI

I second Tony Fisk's 4:12 pm opinion.

Re Paul SB's 3:53 pm post: I seem to recall an SF magazine, perhaps Analog, publishing a story with just this plot.

Tacitus said...

"Please dig it my friend (even though you are blatantly not reading this):" Demonstrably incorrect.
Although I admit, life is busy and I don't always have time to ponder deeply.
David, we have fundamental differences in perspective. We see things in different ways and draw different conclusions based on this.
I regard this as a good thing and have no desired to convert/convince you.
You take a less positive view of ideological diversity!
Anyway, a beer to drink with one of my sons, Packers playing (not well), robots, grandkids, and some unusual adventures await.
Its more engaging than the internet.
Tacitus

Hellerstein said...

I call it "asymmetrical norming".

Unknown said...

You can visit the terraces in Hilo HI where tsunamis in 1960 and 1946 scoured away houses, shops and people. There is a museum to commemorate the dead. In 1960 there were even surfers running down to the shore to catch the wave.
Because of those disasters the areas affected are no longer zoned for building - I spent an afternoon digging up and removing chunks of concrete blocks to make a soccer field safer for my kid's team. And yes, there is an alarm system. I can easier forgive a few false alarms (I experienced none in a 4 year stay on the Big Island) than a lot of dead kids.

Is Loc suggesting this kind of thing is deliberate? What color tinfoil is his hat?

Pappenheimer

Tony Fisk said...

Lucifer's Hammer: Niven and Pournelle's tale of cometary mayhem has a scene where a group of LA surfers head out to catch the *really* big one.

A report of a weird rhythmic tremblor last year was tracked down to a mountain collapsing into a remote Greenland fjord, triggering a 900 foot tsunami that sloshed back and forth between the cliffs for a week or two.

Alfred Differ said...

Heh. Dumb-ass idiot indeed.

That warning probably got triggered by automated code with someone not qualified to be capable of expert judgement pushing a button... maybe. The earthquake was close to the shore and folks up there needed every second they could have to get away if it proved to be true. Expert judgement arrived later with the ending of the alert.

I'm not knocking the button pusher if a human was involved at all. For all I know they are fully trained, but they don't need to be when the seconds could. That's what these early warning systems are for.

I've actually received tremor warnings seconds before they hit my house and that was enough for me to move away from crap that could fall on me. One of the earliest things I did on moving to Southern CA near the coast (Ventura country) was sign up for early tsunami and tremor warnings. Talked over the evac plan with the family too.

Alfred Differ said...

Still happens around here. Tsunami warnings draw fools to the beaches. Severe storm and rogue wave alerts do too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMjbCLCSGCk

First time I saw that video I was thinking that beach road looked awful familiar. Then I read where it had been recorded and caught up with the warnings that told people not to get that close.

Dumb-asses.*

* I've done it too. Once. Hurricane offshore at a Mexican resort. Went for a swim. At Night. This here dumb-ass is lucky to be alive. I didn't even have the 'young male' excuse since I was 31. 8)

Der Oger said...

Mme. Guillotine is hungry in America, methinks.

How Un-American! Mme. Guillotine is a french illegal immigrant! Rather, it is Strange Fruit Tree season.

Sarcasm aside, I rather think assassinated CEOs are more a marketing pitch for paramilitary security service providers, complete with their own intelligence services and policing forces, than a call for revolution.

In time, they will delivery the whole package: personal and object protection, safeguards like transponders in case of abduction (Hello, Snake Plisskin), threats assessment, undercover infiltration of political activist groups, and maybe a black OP here and there to deal with nasty problems like habeas corpus and the dying remains of the rule of law. They will protect high profile targets and a few selected communities, while the rabble outside the walls can eat themselves.

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