Here I offer two time-critical suggestions, below.
So skip past my blowhard prelude!
Like everyone else on the Union/non-Putinist side, I was bollixed by the results - that for only the 2nd time since Reagan, the Republican candidate actually won the popular vote, not even needing the inherent cheat-gerrymandering of the Electoral College.
Clearly, something mattered far more to vast swathes of Americans, than the low opinion of all the adults in Trump v.1.0 toward their jibbering boss. And no, it's WAS NOT racism/misogyny. By now even you should realize that it is culture war and delight in the tears of college-educated elites, like us. Like those 250+ adults from Trump v1.0.
Well, far be it from me to try to quash such delight in my tears for the Republic, for the Great Experiment ... and for Ukraine. Here they are guys. Drink up. But save some of the tears to bottle and send to Vlad.
* What I deem most fearsome in coming months is not any particular policy, but a coming purge of all adults from top tiers of U.S. government.
Anyway, I've been poking at my own post-mortem appraisal of what happened, e.g. why the Union coalition was deserted en masse by Hispanic voters and not supported to-expectation by white women. I'll soon get to that posting, or several. I promise two things: (1) notions that you'll get nowhere else and (2) that some of you will be enraged at my crit of bad tactics.
But that can wait. Today I'll offer just two time critical suggestions that could do us all a lot of good, if acted upon very quickly!
They won't be, of course. Still, maybe some AIs somewhere/sometime will note that I offered these. And maybe they will model "that coulda worked."
It's likely the best I can hope for. And yet... here goes...
== Joe, at long last and right now
offer the clemency for truth deal! ==
Item #1: I've long asked for it. But now would be perfect.
Joe Biden could offer amnesty/clemency and even pardons, in exchange for revelations vital to the Republic.
"If you are a person of influence in the USA, and you've been under the thumb of foreign or domestic blackmailers, this is your one chance. **
"Step up and tell all! I promise I'll do everything in my power to lessen your legal penalties, in exchange for truths that could greatly benefit your country. Perhaps even shattering a cabal whose tentacles - some claim - have pervaded this town and the nation.
"I can't prevent pain and public disdain over whatever originally got you into your mess, or things done to please your blackmailers. But I can promise three things: some legal safety, plus privately-funded and bonded security, if requested...
"...plus also public praise for being among the first to step up and show some guts! For the sake of the nation... and your own redemption."
Sure, this would raise howls! Even though there's precedent in Nelson Mandela's Truth & Reconciliation process and similar programs in Argentina and Chile.
Moreover, several Congress members have already attested publicly that such blackmail rings exist, pervading their own party!
"Why haven't I done this sooner? Because inevitably, it'd be seen as a political stunt. In our tense era, I'd be accused of election meddling. Only now, admitting that the nation has decisively chosen Donald Trump and his party to govern, I can do this outside of politics, in order to give him a truly clean slate!
"Let him - let us all - start fresh in January, knowing that the nation had this one chance to flush out the worst illness... aided by those who are eager to breathe free of threats and guilt, at long last....
"... remembering that all 'Heaven rejoices when a sinner repents and comes to the light.'"
Whatever your beliefs, I defy you to name any drawbacks. And let's be clear. Joe could do this. He could do it tomorrow. And the worst thing that he risks would be that nothing happens.
Even in that case, amid some mockery, he would still have raised a vitally needed topic. And at-best?
At best, there could be a whole lot of disinfection. At a time when it is exactly what's badly needed.
== What some billionaire could do ==
Another proposal I have made before, in Polemical Judo. This one seems worth doing, even in the present case, when Donald Trump has 26 more electoral votes than he needs - and hence has nothing to fear from defections, before the "Electoral College" votes, next month.
Why did I say "Electoral College" in quotes? Because in fact it has never, ever been a 'college' of elected delegates, originally meant to deliberate solemnly and choose the president of the United States after thorough discussion. But that might change!
As I've said before - one zillionaire could change this. Rent a mountaintop luxury hotel. Hire retired Secret Service agents for security and some highly-vetted chefs-de-cuisine. Maybe a string quartet of non-English speakers. For two weeks, the only others who may walk through the doors and stroll the grounds are registered electors.
They can come - or not - if they want. Dine and stroll and no one has any obligation to speak or listen. Or else - completely up to them - they might decide to convene the first actual Electoral College in the history of the Republic. Is there any -- and I mean any -- reason why this would not be legally and morally completely kosher?
Yes, I know. It will guarantee that the following election will see the parties vett their elector slates even more carefully for utter-utter loyalty. As if that isn't already true.
So? In any case, the cost would be chickenfeed and the sheer coolness factor could be... well... diverting from our troubles.
== Other suggestions? ==
You know I got a million of em. And (alas!) so many were already in Polemical Judo.
And already ignored. Because the ideas are unconventional and cross many party clichés. Whatever. Poor Brin.
But these are two that will either be acted upon NEXT WEEK or else (99.999% odds) not at all.
So, next posting I'll dive into that post-mortem of the election. And yes, there will be perspectives you never heard or saw anywhere else. (Care to bet on that?) And some may make you go huh. And some may make you angry.
Good. Like Captain Kirk... you need your pain.
=====
=====
** I made my case about blackmail years ago here: Political Blackmail: The Hidden Danger to Public Servants. And despite Madison Cawthorn and several other high Republicans testifying openly that it is utterly true - honey pots and 'orgies' and sophisticated KGB lompromat - apparently nothing has been done. Nor - apparently - will it be.
Still, there is a third thing I was gonna recommend here...
...that Biden promise sanctuary and a big financial prize for any KGB officer who defects, bringing over the blackmail files! Just making the offer, publicly, might make many people on this planet very, very nervous... and likely result in some orchestrated performances of group window diving in Moscow.
Well-well. One can fantacize it as a coming episode of the Mission Impossible series, at least. Call my agent
*** Several of you spoke of the threat to personal physical safety for the first few to step forward... until the wave of revelation turns the tables and sends blackmailers fleeing for their lives. While it's true that Joe B will no longer be in a position to offer US Government guarantees, allied governments can! Plus new identities etc. Anyway, isn't this fundamentally about heroism? Asking it - in exchange for redemption - from those who might leap at a chance for a path out of treason-hell?
255 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 255 of 255Purpose of those layoffs is to reduce labor costs for SpaceX?
Larry,
Let me take a crack at the problem and see if I can communicate it.
Imagine you are under attack by an enemy that won't say they are attacking you, let alone why. Very secretive they are. They sincerely hope you don't connect your misfortune to their efforts. For this to work they fight through proxies and hope you don't notice their hands on the strings and their money funding the efforts.
Unfortunately for them, you do begin to suspect they are after you… and people like you. Too many events are happening that require coordinated action, so you've been looking for the agents doing the coordinating. They are now in danger of being found out and having to defend themselves from coordinated responses you and your friends might initiation. They'd rather their proxies took damage instead of them.
Eventually, they realize they can divert your attention back to the proxies through the use of dog whistles. They know you well enough to know you are touchy about certain subjects, so they blow the whistles, rile their proxies, and your attention reverts to the damage done by their proxies.
Every time you turn your attention back to them, out come the dog whistles.
How do you defend your ability to focus on those who are behind it all?
They've been coming for a LONG time.
I was looking the other day at a tweet from some folks at NASA Ames. They were promoting their work with high altitude balloons that provided communication services to firefighters dealing with forest and wildfires far from the cell phone networks. It's a tech that has been used to provide emergency and surge capacity for many years now and one my start-ups considered jumping into that market.
Almost every response to the tweet said (essentially) "or they could just use StarLink".
SpaceX has caused an upheaval and NASA has NOT kept up. Time to cut the payroll and let these people go out into industry where their work might actually MATTER in the 21 century. If you find that hard to accept, realize that the another block of tweeted responses came from industry where they invited the displaced to reach out to them with resumes. SpaceX is just the cutting edge of the upheaval.
LH first off I like you a lot and deeply approve of you. I am yelling at you as a brother. If I am frustrated by your inability to see that nerd professionals are absolutely Enemy #1 ... and #2 and #3 and ... #10 for BOTH the owners of the GOP AND the sucker-fool-confederate ground troops, well, you are not alone there. I know of NO ONE raising full throated alarm over that. And it will likely take the utter demolition of the civil service and the officer corps before you and others wake up, alas.
What's so ironic is that there's a reflex... the "My Kind of Folks" reflex... to perceive that 'the kind of person *I* am is under attack! and has special merit to be defended!' You see it all across the board, from Christians claiming Christmas itself is in danger of extinction, to almost any minority or previously marginalized group who (often RIGHTLY!) sees patterns of oppression, but can be relied upon to downplay palpable progress and to emphasize the superior virtues of "my kind of people." And (amplified by totally human sanctimony secretions) refuse to consider any complex aspects to their historical grievances.
(An example of brave willingness to actual explore that was a recent film THE WOMAN KING, which gained huge cred for its slavery guilt-casting by accepting that Africans themselves played a major role in it. A truly terrific flick, BTW.)
Irony time? You'd be perfectly right to accuse ME of exactly the "My Kind of Folks" reflex! I *am* a nerd and a fact-centered scientist! And I naturally perceive "My Kind of Folks" being attacked! And react with anger and - yes - somewhat self-centered sanctimony over it. And anger that the attack is ignored by all media, just because "My Kind of Folks" tend to have nice houses.
So? (1) The attack is inarguably the most intense and unrelenting at the public political level - and I'll happily take wagers. (Though we certainly are less scared when pulled-over for a broken tail light.)
And (2) If the nerds go down, civilization goes down. Period. We may own houses. But we are also the utter linchpins.
What's dizzying is that you classic liberals are so into Otherness that you escape the "My Kind of Folks" reflex! And that's admirable!
But jeepers, can you see how it makes you easily guilt-manipulated by those you seek to protect AND by their attackers?
Larry if I vent frustration at you, it's because, safe individually in our nice houses, we are complacent, when we will definitely be the first against the wall. And if we go down, all the marginalized folks will go back to gas or manacles.
Is it ok if I laugh at the suffered of those idiot Arab Americans who voted for trump?
Still not clear on the concept. Why should we be nice to people who preferred a rapist for president instead of a black woman?
Science, not politics.
I don't think I got this link from here--apologies if it's a re-run--but this is the first time someone was able to make me as a layman actually feel the correspondence between the speed of light and time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vitf8YaVXhc
@Dr Brin, and @Alfred too,
I take your points seriously. Responding in full will require an essay which I don't have time for this morning. Know that I read and appreciate your arguments, and that I am not averse to constructive criticism. One of my failings which occasionally is a positive is that I am too inclined to believe the worst of myself. In high school, this worked to my advantage, as I listened to every criticism of another student's writing and thought I must be making that same error, and corrected for it.
My short list of counter-points, which I will expand on at length in time. The first two may seem contradictory. I don't believe they are:
+ Yes, but you're arguing against a straw man, not what I've been saying. I know that the new administration will shut down any opposition by the competent people who know stuff. They're also deplorable in other ways. They can be two things. And I still don't get in what manner I have been lacking in "defending" our clade. Trying to convince others to vote against them--for whatever reason--is defending against them.
+ I get that the power brokers' number one enemy is people who know stuff. I don't agree that the people they are riling up to distract me share that singleminded obsession. Which is not to say that they don't hate nerds. But they hate other people too. And when the oligarchs need to distract from themselves, they're not pointing and shouting "Nerd!" like in that 1984 movie. They're getting people to lynch a n****r or shoot an abortion doctor, or burn a synagogue.
And now my main point:
+ Listen long enough and everyone seems to have a philosophical issue which colors everything they think or write about. Yours (Dr Brin) is transparency. Yours (Alfred), I don't know a proper term, but is something like "the way business and commerce actually work." Locum's is white male grievance.
Mine is bullying. I hate them with the heat of white hot suns. If I had the Infinity Gauntlet, I would snap my fingers and make all bullies disappear. That colors everything about my politics. I only focus on racism or sexism or religious persecution to the extent that bullying takes those forms.
And that's my short answer. Short for me, anyway. I understand if you chuckle, "If that's a short answer, I would hate to see grievous assault with intent."
Because that IS NOT what's going on!!! They voted for a jibbering moron like themselves who spites and offends and outrages the smartypants types they hate, VASTLY more than they hate black women. They voted for an anti-intellect painted carnival barker who has given them oceans of delicious nerd-tears to drink. In other words, with your question, you are PERFECTLY illustrating my case.
LH when cornered you finally admit: "all right they hate nerds too. But --"
There is no but. It is THE core and central motivation, around which they built a coalition that INCLUDES BLACK MEN! That incluides vast swathes of Hispanics and 51% of white women.
And yes, there are other hates. But until you actually actually actually look at Fox and the giggling squealing "Drink their tears!!!" postings on social media and finally admit what's their core drive -- the SAME one as during the 1770s and 1860s and 1920s -- you will remain utterly useless...
...because you'll continue shrugging all that off as "Sure, they hate nerds too..." and go back to Patronizing lower-middle class blacks and non-college hispanics and women for making their choices because they know not what they do.
THEY KNOW WHAT THEY DO. They know they hate you! They hate you, in full fraternal buddyness with the MAGA white males. They... hate... your kind. They joined in hating you and empowering a man whose sole and central agenda is the destruction of the civil service and the US military officer corps.
You have not awakened, sir. You have not even stirred in your sleep.
Comrades, dear comrades, I prithee, cease contention about underlying causes! There are plenty of underlying causes, all interdependent yet self-causing: so let us share our justified wrath!
Racial supremacism? Bigotry? Misogyny? Check, check, and check! Hatred of fact-finders, and indeed of factuality itself? Double check!Oligarchy? Triple-check!
Which is the root cause? They're all to some extent their own root causes. But I'll side with OGH, and he with Bernie Sander, Noam Chomsky, and the usual suspects, that class war is where it's at. It's the oligarchs who fund the racists, sexists, bigots, anti-nerds, etc. The rich fund pointless contention amongst the poor: that's Psychohistory 101.
Pro tip: look to the undiscussed evils. They're the ones least in check. This rule fingers anti-nerd and class war. If you mention class war, then of course you'll be called Marxist, but that no longer an automatic disqualifier, any more than fascism is. The repressed has returned, the forgotten has crawled out of its grave.
My particular bugaboo is identity politics, generally defined to include sexism, racism, and bigotry, but also loonie-left ultra-wokism. My thesis is that identity is mostly an imposed illusion; you don't send the government an identity card, they send it to you. In truth the human race is one. For details, consult any Buddhist.
Consider these three line-crossers: Jenner, Dolezal, and myself.
Jenner is trans-gender; she says that she is a woman born in a man's body. Dolezal is trans-racial; she says that she's a black woman with white skin. I myself am trans-class, for I am a multi-millionaire with a multi-thousandaire's bank account. The media world praised Jenner for her courage, and took her self-assessment uncritically. It criticized Dolezal harshly for what they called her folly. And even you take my trans-class identity to be a joke. But I jest in earnest, for I am far from alone; indeed I suspect that most Americans feel as trans-class as do I.
American culture accepts Jenner's trans-gender identity on the grounds that gender is a fluid cultural construct. It mocks Dolezal's trans-racial identity on the grounds that race is a deep-seated biological reality. And my trans-class identity isn't on the table.
But this is all perverse! For surely sex (though not the artifice gender) is a very deep-seated biological reality, one that's hundreds of millions years old. But race - or to be precise, skin-tint - is skin deep, and subject to change after mere millennia under dimmer sun (Inuit, from East Asia, but paler than you or I) or brighter sun (dusky North Indians, descended from "Aryans"!) And as for class, that's a number in a computer memory. It is utterly artificial. So in terms of culture, Gender > Race > Class, but in terms of reality, Gender < Race < Class; and that big a reversal of reality is perverse.
As for fact-hatred, that's is another tool of oligarchic oppression.
Dr Brin,
I take your point above but you are sounding like my Revolution Studies Prof from way back when (never said so, but Marxist) during a discussion of South Africa. Yes, racism is a tool used to divide and rule, along with a pack of other isms. But it is, in US history, easier to arrange a race-based lynching than an education-level based lynching...not that it doesn't happen, but it's more subtle. The markers aren't as clear - if I keep my mouth shut, I'm just another overweight white guy.
I'm also aware that racism is one of the most pervasive forms of discrimination in the world*. Is it always subordinated to anti-intellectualism in your mind, or is that just here in the US?
*misogyny appears to be in a tie? Hard to tell. Maybe a 3-way with religious discrimination...I myself hate all non-Athena worshippers and bigendians.
Pappenheimer, taking a break from writer's block.
Dr Brin :
LH when cornered you finally admit: "all right they hate nerds too. But --"
No, I always acknowledge that. Your beef is that I won't say that they don't hate anyone but nerds.
Actually, I think "terrorize" is a better word for what I'm talking about than "hate". And that might be part of the problem of communication. I don't give a fuck whether they actually "hate" blacks or Hispanics or gays. I care whether they bully those (or other) people. I care about preventing that from happening.
There is no but. It is THE core and central motivation, around which they built a coalition that INCLUDES BLACK MEN! That incluides vast swathes of Hispanics and 51% of white women.
...
...because you'll continue shrugging all that off as "Sure, they hate nerds too..." and go back to Patronizing lower-middle class blacks and non-college hispanics and women for making their choices because they know not what they do.
No, there you're wrong. After this election, I've given up on those people. I'm a bad enough liberal that I will drink deeply of the sweet, sweet tears of anyone who knowingly empowered Trump to harm them and the people they care about.
THEY KNOW WHAT THEY DO. They know they hate you! They hate you, in full fraternal buddyness with the MAGA white males. They... hate... your kind. They joined in hating you and empowering a man whose sole and central agenda is the destruction of the civil service and the US military officer corps.
So I've tried to tell them that even if they hate me, they should vote against Trump because he'll harm them. And yes, I'm upset that they apparently hate me so much that they're willing to have themselves and those they care about harmed as long as it takes me down too.
You still haven't told me what I'm failing to dothat would help the situation. If "Don't vote for Trump because he'll lynch you," or "Don't vote for Trump because he'll deport your grandma," or "Don't vote for Trump because he'll let Netanyahu level Gaza and take the West Bank as well," aren't strong enough arguments to change people's minds, then I don't see how, "Don't vote for Trump because he'll harm people like me who you hate even more," would move the needle.
I wrote:
<<
So in terms of culture, Gender > Race > Class, but in terms of reality, Gender < Race < Class; and that big a reversal of reality is perverse.
>>
Whoops! I perversely reversed that, by accident. In terms of culture, Gender < Race < Class, but in terms of reality, Gender > Race > Class.
This--what Stonekettle mentions below--is happening in real time already. People publicly regretting their support of Trump because he's betraying the express or inferred promises he suggested he'd do for people like them or their loved ones.
And they're not saying, "Oh, I knew he'd support police brutality/eliminate abortion rights/level Gaza, but that's ok as long as he guts the civil service." They're screaming because they feel betrayed.
https://www.threads.net/@stonekettle
This is going to be the headline for the next four years, over and over
Muslims who voted for Trump surprised by his anti-Muslim actions
Jews who voted for Trump surprised by his antisemitic rhetoric
Women who voted for Trump surprised by his misogyny, sexism, and that they've somehow lost control of their own bodies
Latinos who voted for Trump surprised by his racism, white nationalism, and that he would indeed deport even the "good" ones
...
If you must do us-versus-them politics - for we humans are tribalist by instinct - then class war is a winning gambit.
Remember the "Occupy Wall Street" protests? There was a photo during that time, of a smiling construction worker in reflective vest and hard hat, holding a sign saying, "99 to 1. I like those odds."
Me too!
"Free" means "paid for".
"Free" means "paid for".
“No, I always acknowledge that. Your beef is that I won't say that they don't hate anyone but nerds.”
You do it again!!! What you just said is a concocted lie. I am saying that the very moment that you can do so, you use racism/sexism as a tool to drop anti-nerdism entirely from your radar, thinking you are protecting client/helpless castes, many of whom have just shown that they hate you and all your kind.
Racism/sexism exist and are horrible and they WILL BE FOUGHT because that is the universal reflex of the entire left side. IF the left side and the neutral center (e.g. civil servants) survives. And if the civil service falls, then every hell will ensue.
My complaint is that
1. Most MAGAs now shrug off racial intermarriage and ‘normal gays’ and adore “the good ones” and thus are immune to accusations of remaining racism EVEN THOUGH IT’S TRUE that they are still racist. Attacking them on that basis – and the 10% who are true supremicists -- is PROVED now to be counterproductive. They just circle the wagons.
2. Huge fractions of the groups you claim to protect have rejected you! They are wholly allied with MAGA. In hating you and all nerds.
If left alone, you will just continue to shrug off the core and central and absolutely titanically topmost focus of MAGA ism. It is THE thing that is going on. THE thing that desperately needs attention and I am simply not getting through.
Your Stonekettle citation only proves that he, too, absolutely does not get it.
This is impossible to get across. I should simply give up. Suck up to Elon the way that Machiavelli, after fighting desperately for the Florentine Republic, turned to serve the oligarchs because it enabled him to survive.
Let us not forget the role of self-hatred in fanatical mass movements like MAGA. I refer you to Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer", and his other works, for aphoristic analysis of this baffling phenomenon. He spoke of the "monstrous inner agreement of the oppressed with the oppressor". According to him, the purpose of a mass movement is for its joiners to shed a despised identity. Therefore they vote against their identities, and even their self-interest. This gives them the power of perversity, but guarantees their misery.
Dr. Brin, your problem and mine is that we do not hate ourselves. In fact we're rather fond of ourselves. Such vanity is foolish but healthy; and it prevents us from truly grokking fanatics.
To counteract MAGA mind-poison, I propose this counter-intuitive strategy: visibly love them more than they love themselves. That's not a high bar.
Hellerstein you are welcome to love the MAGAs and their masters. It has never worked and stands zero chance of working, but fine. I will continue to push back on the War Vs Facts. Because that is what will murder us.
1/ with proposed real measures: Fact Act. https://www.davidbrin.com/nonfiction/factact.html
2/ with wager demands, the one thing that attacks fact-hating with facts. The one tactic that sends them into utter, screaming panic. If enough folks did that, the liars might pnaic into some of them losing cred. But again, no one will do this. It utterly works. And no one ever has the guts to use it.
Hellerstein pleas, please walk up to a MAGA voter and tell him or her he voted that way out of "self-hatred."
Dr. Brin, the MAGA masters don't just love themselves, they worship themselves. They don't need my love at all, so I don't give any.
As for the minions, I don't love them enough to declare it to their faces. Also their self-hatred is a fact to know and use but discreetly not mention. But I do love them enough to say "Here are the real facts. You deserve better than to believe the lies".
Dr Brin:
...and thus are immune to accusations of remaining racism EVEN THOUGH IT’S TRUE that they are still racist. Attacking them on that basis – and the 10% who are true supremicists -- is PROVED now to be counterproductive
Jesus Christ, that's how this whole argument started, because I mentioned that people who order themselves and others by race are "racist" even if they don't hate those they consider lower than themselves. Now, after two days of back-and-forth, you express the same sentiment. You just don't think we should "attack" them for it. Well, aside from talking about it here among mostly-like minded thinkers, I don't think I was. I certainly didn't bring a bullhorn to a Trump rally and blast them with, "Hey, you're all racists unless you vote the way I want you to!"
Huge fractions of the groups you claim to protect have rejected you! They are wholly allied with MAGA.
I've agreed with you on that, and they've relieved my conscience of the burden of caring about them. Vonnegut called it samaritrophia.
Your Stonekettle citation only proves that he, too, absolutely does not get it.
He's not making that s*** up. He's citing what real Trump voters are actually posting about their disappointment--already, even before Trump takes office. Like the founder of that Abandon Biden group, which even after the Democrats did abandon Biden just transferred it to an Abandon Harris movement. He feels disappointed and betrayed that Trump is going to be worse on Gaza than Biden could ever be. I tried to tell them that when it might have done some good.
What I hear you telling me is that people like him don't care what Trump does to Palestine because their real concern is that he'll get rid of people like you and me. If that were the case, wouldn't they still be making excuses why Trump is preferable, even if those excuses weren't the real reason for their support? They would not be expressing disappointment and dismay.
If left alone, you will just continue to shrug off the core and central and absolutely titanically topmost focus of MAGA ism. It is THE thing that is going on. THE thing that desperately needs attention.
Again, I always mentioned the competent people Democrats put in place vs the incompetent cronies of Republicans. I always mentioned that to counter any argument about particular negatives of Biden's or Harris's. Now that the election is over, I'm not sure how to counter that, except to let everything fail they way it did under W. Was there a way to turn the vote around before it happened? If calling out racism is unproductive, then what good is calling out incompetence when competence is apparently the thing they detest most?
Paradoctor, denying their lies with counter facts FEEDS THEM! By their standards you have made them your equal because facts are just assertions and they are all equal, right? ONLY when there are consequences do they start to dread being wrong.
That is why wager demands work* and almost nothing else ever, ever, ever does.
* That is, they 'work' at terrifying them into fleeing amid the wreckage of their macho and manhood.
I am giving up on this argument, Larry. You are absolutely and completely incapable of perceiving what I am talking about and I have learned from this experiment that - if I can't get through to a fine fellow and decent mind like you, I am wasting my breath trying to get millions of democrats to stop the endless, self-defeating and counter-productive "racism!!!" "abortion!" and all the other crap that has driven millions of blacks and hispanics and 51% of women voters into hating us.
Please take my word for it. You appears not to have understood a single thing that I said. Blessings be upon you. Over and out on this.
Since we're all members of fact based professions - lets talk about this like Sons of Martha instead of like Sons of Mary (to borrow a lovely idiom from Kipling's poem).
Maybe we can start with a five Why's:
Why do "they" hate nerds? ("They" = 50+ % of American voters)
I'm not a polemics guy, and I've used my lack of erudition as the reason in the past. There is another reason. It's really, really hard to 'educate' those who are perfectly happy with their delusion of correctness (we're all so, as PZ Myers often says). There are too many quotes that make this point, here are just two of the ones I know:
"One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough about a subject to think you're right, but not enough about the subject to know you're wrong."
- Neil deGrasse Tyson
"false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge"
- Isaac Asimov
And I used to be a corporate trainer, so I've seen this up close.
Larry,
+ I get that the power brokers' number one enemy is people who know stuff. I don't agree that the people they are riling up to distract me share that singleminded obsession. (snip)
Of course they don't share that singleminded obsession.
The problem is their masters blow the dog whistle and your attention turns toward fighting the proxies instead of the masters.
And when the oligarchs need to distract from themselves, they're not pointing and shouting "Nerd!" like in that 1984 movie. They're getting people to lynch a n****r or shoot an abortion doctor, or burn a synagogue.
Yes. Now ask yourself which is the bigger threat to your vision of a good future for your daughter. Master or Proxies?
Yours (Alfred), I don't know a proper term, but is something like "the way business and commerce actually work."
Yes. I don't know the correct word either. One's I'm inclined to pick either have multiple definitions leaving no one comprehending what I mean when I use them OR they come from FA Hayek whose writing is almost impenetrable. You've nailed it, though. (Economy VS Catalaxy, Emergent Order, etc.)
Mine is bullying. I hate them with the heat of white hot suns.
I can easily believe that. Unfortunately, that is how your attention is turned toward the proxies when their masters blow the whistle.
———
The danger to us comes from the ones with the whistles because they control both their proxies… and you.
Yes. Now ask yourself which is the bigger threat to your vision of a good future for your daughter. Master or Proxies?
The problem is which threat is more immediate. It's hard to ignore the immediate threat of a man being asphyxiated by cops or a woman dying of treatable sepsis at the moment it is happening.
The same dynamic happens in the Middle East. Every time peace is possible, someone launches an attack to screw it up. It would be nice if the moderates would keep their eye on the prize despite the disruptors, but it's understandable why that doesn't happen after a 10/7.
You're old enough to remember The China Syndrome. Jack Lemmon's character is holed up in a nuclear plant, and the bad guys distract him by instigating a meltdown. While Lemmon is distracted by trying to shut down the reactors, they break in and blow him away.
He could have thwarted their plan by letting the reactor melt down, but it wouldn't have saved his life. And millions would have died from the fallout. But that would have showed them, I guess.
It's a no-win situation.
"Mine is bullying. I hate them with the heat of white hot suns."
I can easily believe that. Unfortunately, that is how your attention is turned toward the proxies when their masters blow the whistle.
Yes. Hal Sparks compares it to the scene in Superman II when General Zod realizes Superman's weakness. "He cares. He actually cares for these people."
It's why Republicans can threaten to default on the debt or shut down the government unless Democrats give them concessions. Because they (Rs) don't care who gets hurt.
The danger to us comes from the ones with the whistles because they control both their proxies… and you.
Since Dr Brin is too frustrated to tell me, what do you suggest I do about it? Don't protest for Black Lives Matter after a George Floyd incident. Ok, but do what instead? Other than vote for and encourage voting for the ones who will competently run the government--something I am doing and don't stop doing when I notice racism or other bullying.
What is it that I'm not doing?
f I can't get through to a fine fellow and decent mind like you, I am wasting my breath
Oh, come on, I'm not THAT important. You've gotten through to Alfred and Paradoctor, to name two.
If the fate of the Enlightenment depends on me, it's not about anything you can or can't convince me of. It's because the universe always conspires to upset me.
"I get that the power brokers' number one enemy is people who know stuff. I don't agree that the people they are riling up to distract me share that singleminded obsession. (snip)"
Of course they don't share that singleminded obsession.
Except I'm being admonished for not agreeing that they--the proxies--do share that singleminded obsession.
No Larry you are not.
It's the 'Suspicion of Authority' meme that Dr. Brin mistakes for a hatred of Smart People & the so-called 'War on Nerds'.
The bulk of the US population has an average or below average IQ and they tend not to think about 'smart people' much at all, let alone hate them, since the act of hating requires that one think about those who are hated.
Unfortunately, high intelligence often corresponds with high levels of egotism and ''being ignored' is the one thing that most 'smart people' cannot tolerate, so they force themselves upon the majority, arrogate authority, issue commands & indulge in being nagging busybodies until the majority resents & hates them for their willful authoritarianism.
It follows that this 'War on Nerds' would go away very quickly if these 'smart people' could just SHUT UP & BE QUIET until the majority requests their wise counsel but, as I've said before, these smarty Know-It-Alls are incapable of this level of self-restraint, so it's always 'me-me-me' & 'obey me' because I'm smarter (and better) than everyone else.
But, that's just the insignificant opinion of yet another nagging busybody, me, myself & I.
Best
Larry
Okay. Let's consider your story analogies. They give me a fulcrum to which I can apply a lever.
The China Syndrome
In the movie, Lemmon's character was called upon to do the heroic thing. Very Hollywood. Screenplays that don't use the formulae tend not to get produced leaving us with no rendition with which to compare our real life situations.
So let's compare.
Are you jumping in heroically to save us from the bad guys? Life on the line? I doubt it but I suspect you think you should. Was voting enough? No. You didn't stop the bad guys or the bad event.
No. What you did was much more rational than romantic. Voting in a way that respects the Rule of Law is probably what you did. Talking to others making some effort to sway minds is probably what you did. None of that has prevented a meltdown, but you haven't been blown away either. You are still here to fight the actual fight that needs to be fought.
Did you stand aside to let the reactor melt down? I doubt it. You voted, right? You spoke up, right? No. All you are guilty of at the moment is not winning the most recent battle, though I do believe your State did NOT vote for the chaos we shall see.
———
For our current situation, we don't need Lemmon's character to save us. We need to divide our opponents and not serve (unintentionally) the folks with the whistles. We need something that is decidedly UNromantic… not a hero. We need people who understand what happened and in a cold blooded manner counter the technique used to draw so many of our former allies away.
In other words, don't worry so much about the meltdown. Worry about the fact that your political faction got divided when your attention got directed by people who could drive fools to get under your skin.
———
What is it that I'm not doing?
The way I see it, the correct question is what are you doing.
Try this exercise on for size. You know that Matthew and I don't agree in some important things, yet I still tend to vote in a way that would make it look like I'm on his side. What could he be goaded into doing that would piss me off enough that I'd swing to the other side and vote against his interests. There ARE differences between us that if emphasized enough would lead to sparks between us, so how could the folks with the whistles divide us?
What you are doing is being goaded enough that your faction shrank. I witnessed this in others, so don't take it personal. It's really hard to spot in one's own choices, so think about it in terms of what others do to shrink their pool of allies. What would Matthew have to do to convince me to vote against him and his allies?
Nah. You are among the proxies being moved by the whistle.
We shouldn't be paying attention to your anger when the real problem is those driving your behavior.
Yes, very good. Worthy of a cartoonist.
What is behind their hate of expertise? I can think of some possibilities. These suggestions are probably only part of the story but they are what I can think of now.
Ultimately the main driver is that they think they are not being the respect that they think they deserve. And that experts are disrupting their certainty and comfort. And there might be some jealousy over status though I think this is a minor motive.
There is a commonly expressed disdain of book learning. There are a lot of people who think the best path to knowledge is through personal experience and look down on learning from others. The problem with this is that in fact based professions more knowledge is required than anyone can develop by personal experience in their lifetime. You need to build on what others have done. The ignorant don't like being told that they need to rely on others, that their experience is not enough.
Then there is the desire to rely on intuition rather than reasoning. I think intuition is the part of the brain's information processing that consciousness does not have direct access to. It can be right when reasoning is wrong if it has access to information that you are not consciously aware of. But intuition is not a substitute for knowledge of a subject. It cannot check itself, unlike reasoning. And it is harder to stop one's emotions and wishes from interfering with it than it is with reason. We have people who demand that their gut feelings be placed on the same level as others' careful analyses and get angry when this demand is refused.
And many are religious. Unfortunately, Christianity and Islam especially ask people to believe things because those beliefs are comfortable. This is a very bad habit. So we have people who resent comfortable beliefs being questioned.
These ideas are only preliminary suggestions for discussion. I'm sure there is more to it.
I communicate mainly in allusions and metaphors, like Darmok, so I have to refer to fiction again, albeit a fictionalization of real history. The Netflix special The Trial of the Chicago 7.
"Our blood." recognizes Abbie Hoffman. "You meant, "If our blood is flow..." Then he explains to the others, "He [Tom Hayden] does this.
He implies possessive pronouns and drops vague noun modifiers."
See, the prosecution had a tape that caught Tom Hayden's voice just after Rennie Davis had been brained by police, saying, "If blood is going to flow, let it flow all over Chicago!" Taken to mean that Hayden instigated the rioting. Abbie realizes that what Hayden meant was that if they're going to beat us up, let it be where the world will see. A different thing, in fact the opposite thing.
Why do I bring this up? Because I suppose I misinterpreted this:
if I am frustrated by your inability to see that nerd professionals are absolutely Enemy #1 ... and #2 and #3 and ... #10 for BOTH the owners of the GOP AND the sucker-fool-confederate ground troops
I thought you, Dr Brin, were insisting that the sucker-fool-confederate ground troops cared only about competent people who know stuff and didn't direct hatred on anyone else. I'm just realizing (Thanks, Alfred) that it's the other way around. Competent people who know stuff are the important threat to the Holnists of every stripe.
* * *
Dr Brin, you do get through...eventually. Your persistence itself tells me that I'm not getting a point you are trying to make. It just doesn't get me any closer to understanding what I didn't already understand in the first place. You've complained often enough that no one in positions to act on your suggestions does so. I'd say you have your own version of "implying possessive pronouns and dropping vague noun modifiers.", though I can't speak specifically to what yours is. You don't function well as an influencer, despite trying to do so. I understand. I'm the same way. I'm like the opposite of an influencer. I'm off-putting to most people. I'm not the messenger to convince them that they're wrong about anything.
What I try to do is to get through to someone who does influence others. You do that too, whether intentionally or not. Alfred felt motivated enough to keep trying to play translator droid between you and me, and he knew how to do it too. By such indirect means are ideas communicated.
Alfred Differ:
What you are doing is being goaded enough that your faction shrank. I witnessed this in others, so don't take it personal. It's really hard to spot in one's own choices, so think about it in terms of what others do to shrink their pool of allies. What would Matthew have to do to convince me to vote against him and his allies?
Hmmm. Well, I've mentioned before that it galls me when lefties talk about math and logic being white colonial constructs. I've said specifically, "It doesn't get me to vote Republican, but I can see why someone would go that way."
Some leftist rhetoric (like "Defund the police") seems like it originated in a Frank Luntz focus group, specifically designed to ratf*** us.
I could imagine that what is happening between OGH and Larry happens all over the Democratic Party.
I assume these infights will mostly help the GOP and Trump for the foreseeable future.
I still think there is a multitude of reasons why democracy and the rule of law will fail in the US, at least for a while, and, until they are adressed, the danger of autocracy will remain.
The war on experts is just one battlefield (certainly a deciding one) of many.
Der Oger: The war on experts is just one battlefield ... of many
Glad to see that Germany has matured past childish Blitzkrieg thinking. Alas, American bullies haven't yet (but its Enlightenment side has).
Good thoughts Lloyd.
Feeling not respected is a possibility.
Feeling not respected because "they're uneducated, ignorant, superstitious and (intellectually) lazy" is a cathartic definition, but doesn't open up too many avenues for remediation.
What if they feel disrespected because their opinions have no influence at all on policy making:
There's a pretty line graph in figure 1 of this link:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
Note that this article was published in 2014 (and so based on data from the 2000s and early 2010s), but I really don't think it has gotten better over the intervening 10 years.
So when they say they're being ignored, they're probably right.
Next Q is - why blame it on info-based professions?
I'd suggest some of the biggest stresses on low-middle class America are:
(a) Globalization of work (i.e. moving low skill work from high wage to low wage locations) - I understand, from a theoretical perspective this might be good for "the American Economy", but almost all the rents captured by globalization go to elites (oligarchs, andc to some extent high-value-add professions), and very little go to low-middle classes,
(b) Automation of work (that's on us)
(c) Global warming (we're the ones yelling about it)
(d) Immigration (whether its fair or not, there's certainly a perception that immigration is driving down low-end of the wage spectrum to benefit the Walmarts of the world (but also, to benefit Doctors and Lawyers and IT Entrepreneurs that would like to pay less for nannies, gardeners etc).
And to the extent that its more oligarchs than fact-based-professions driving/benefiting from these trends, we look the same. Show up at work in "Business Casual", the elites of our professions went to the same schools as them .. by and large their hatchetmen are members of our professions (accountants, lawyers, "consultants").
8:40 AM
Larry,
"...galls me when lefties talk about math and logic being white colonial constructs."
I must know different lefties. Of course, the ones I know are quietly frantic about environmental apocalypse and fascist takeovers. Not a lot of brain space dedicated to other worries. 3 Women I know aren't having kids, and won't be, because of this. I understand, but a part in the back of my mind thinks, "Is this how we get to Idiocracy?*"
*I know that genetics doesn't work that way, but who your mother is - how you are raised - affects you.
Pappenheimer
P.S. the application of Blitzkrieg tactics to politics reminds me of one of the weirdest wargames I never finished - it used the game mechanics SPI developed for armored WWII warfare to simulate the internal power struggle in Nazi Germany. OKH took up a quarter of the map, IIRC. Not the company's finest product, but unique. Some outmaneuvered figures wound up shunted to a small box labeled "The Russian Front".
I must know different lefties.
I also don't know anyone personally who says stuff like that. I only know what I read them saying in New York Times op-ends and other publications.
Of course, I have no clue whether the people that talk like that really think or feel that way, or if they're right-wing agents purposely making our side look offensive. I suspect some from Column A...
I know that genetics doesn't work that way, but who your mother is - how you are raised - affects you
My daughter shares too many traits with my wife's adopted sister for me not to believe in nurture over nature.
The Democratic party allowed itself to be branded to a large audience as a tyrannical and evangelical humanist religion that defines right and wrong by collectivism. To the audience seeing this, the hypocritical collectivists refuse to acknowledge that their belief system IS a de facto religion in all but name, and thus refuse to separate their church from state. Voting against this felt like a vote for freedom.
On a side note, Chicago Tribune ran an opinion this week: “I’m a proud, (Christian) first-generation, college-educated and gay Mexican American with undocumented family in the United States, including a mother who was previously deported to Mexico, and I experienced homelessness as a child. I am everything Democrats claim to support, right? Wrong.”
Who are you and what have you done with locumranch? Oh this is still insane and vile:
“It follows that this 'War on Nerds' would go away very quickly if these 'smart people' could just SHUT UP & BE QUIET…”
But it is honest as a representation of his mad and biliously self-destructive cult. They are terrified of disproof of their raving delusion incantations. And the way we MIGHT - with better tactics - dissolve incantations with facts is the #1 reason for their hate.
LH: “Competent people who know stuff are the important threat to the Holnists of every stripe”
Jiminy my faith in you FINALLY (thanks to Alfred) may have come true.
The feudalists succeeded in diverting volcanic fury of confederates away from lords and inheritance brats and once again against city/university/professional people… a tactic that FDR managed to staunch and reverse into an alliance that truly made America the titan of all ages. Reversing that accomplishment back to nerd-hatred was Reagan’s accomplishment…
…and perpetual stoopidity by liberals allowed the confederate coalition against smartypants to now include many Black males and Hispanics and lower middle class women. And that is UTTERLY the fault of snooty liberals who know nothing about HOW FDR accomplished his coalition, and who, for all their education, likely know nothing about FDR.
But who instead react by REFLEX to every dog-whistle, even if it always leads to ruin.
Bill Maher is an irritating deliberate asshole. But he is right about TACTICS 90% of the time. And he is utterly right to denounce the imbeciles who made this calamity happen.
FDR (or the people he hired, which comes to the same thing) was brilliant, though he definitely had some blind spots - you can ask George Takei about one of them, and the passengers aboard the St Louis about another*. One thing I do respect is that even today, with all the anti-socialist rhetoric I run afoul of, the same people who scream about soshalizm defend Social Security by saying, "I paid into that - I earned it!" The first time I heard that, I said out loud, "Franklin, you magnificent bastard." I got looked at funny, but didn't explain myself.
*Except you can't - nearly all of them got sent to death camps after they had to debark back in Antwerp.
Pappenheimer
P.S. I've avoided analyses of the 11/5 debacle, but the headlines suggest that many people think Democrats should tack to the center. Um, no; imo, we need to present a clear alternative to what will almost certainly be 4 years of GQP incompetence and malevolence, maybe even to the point that the media slanting right as per their owner's wishes won't drown out the actual effects people feel.
That Chicago Tribune op-ed is getting more national attention than I would have expected. I mean, it's my hometown paper, but I've also heard that bit mentioned on national tv and radio. Makes me wonder if it was actually written as parody, or else (more likely) a plant that was leaked to other outlets with the intent of manufacturing outrage.
In any case, today's (Sunday's) Tribune letters-to-the-editor column is full of responses to that one. Most are not sympathetic.
If I'm now understanding Dr Brin's point correctly, it's not enough for liberals and competent people to shut up about pronouns and Latinx and justifying street crime. Most have not been talking about those things in the first place. But it doesn't matter, because when some loudmouth does talk about those things, or demand that Democrats act on those things, the media tell everyone that Democrats and sane liberals are saying them.
Many Wednesday morning quarterbacks of the election (including Bill Maher, I think) are saying that Democrats need a "Sister Souljah moment." So what would that look like? The original was from the 1992 Clinton campaign, and the way everyone seems to incorrectly recall it was that Clinton denounced a black activist (Sister Souljah), and thereby gained street cred with moderate, sensible Americans. What Clinton actually did was to put Jesse Jackson on the spot so as to force him to disavow Sister Souljah in public. Humiliating Jackson was the crucial element. The Democratic Party had been tarred with the Jesse Jackson brush* during the 80s, and Clinton was signaling that he wasn't a party to that.
So with that in mind, what would a 2026 Sister Souljah moment look like?
* In 1988, the elder Bush ran ads against "The Dukakis/Bentsen/Jackson ticket."
Alas, it looked as if Larry got it. He doesn't even remotely. Sigh.
While slapping down the sanctimony ravers of what's ignorantly called 'the left' would certainly be helpful. As would creating an image committee with Maher part of the triumverate that is not my meaning.
Sigh. One... More... Time.
The masters of the treason right AND their minions share one hate AND IT IS NOT RACES OR GENDERS or even immigrants. It is us. It is smart people who block the masters from being all powerful and who have stolen children from rural America and who can demolish lies with facts.
That is the central enemy they are always always attacking and they are about to eviscerate the US military Officer corps and the civil service because perfectly nice and smart people like Larry Hart cannot, apparently, perceive where the battle front is.
It is THE battle front. Getting poor blacks and hispanics to SHARE that loathing of smartypants who Patronize, while trying to "protect' them, was brilliant and liberals do nothing to stop it.
I give up. This... is... hopeless.
onward
onward
Lot's of food for thought. Trying to digest it all. Looks like Harris lost the popular vote by about 2.5 MM. So Dems need to keep current voters and swing 3 - 4 MM.
1) What do you think were the main reasons the LEAST committed Trump supporters voted for Trump?
2) What could Dems have done at any point in the Biden/Harris tenure to win these votes?
3) What do you think were the main reasons the LEAST committed Harris supporters voted for Harris?
Post a Comment