Let's take a step back and look at the context for life on EARTH™ and where Artificial Intelligences may fit in it all.
What will we see as we develop ever more complex societies of interacting cyber-entities?
(Some of the images that follow are from keynotes that I delivered to the Beneficial AGI Conference in Panama City (see pod-followup) and to the big RSA Conference in May.)
== The truly big picture on cyber-entities ==
For starters, for well-or-ill, we are creating a New Ecosystem on Earth, one that's equivalent to the current living system on our planet.
The older one is a 4 billion year-old process that passes energy along a gradient. A slope of degrading free energy that starts with SUNLIGHT feeding PLANTS which are then consumed by HERBIVORES, which in turn give up distilled and concentrated resources to CARNIVORES, who in turn feed PARASITES. And all of the above feed the fungi and other thanatotrophs, when they die, restoring nutrients to the soil.
All of that is familiar to you, of course. But what we often neglect to note is how this is not a closed system. All of that consuming generates entropy which cannot be allowed to accumulate! Fortunately, the biosphere is flushed free of most entropy, which escapes into space as thermal radiation, or infrared, allowing the planet to cool enough for fresh, high quality sunlight to do its work.
Okay, much or most, or all of that you already knew. So, what does that 4 billion year natural ecosystem have to do with AI?
I posit a new ecosystem: one that's based - instead of directly on sunlight - upon ELECTRICITY - MEMORY SPACE - CLOCK CYCLES - DATA.
We have already seen parts of the new ecosystem emulating the old one's key component - living organisms. For a decade there have been free-floating algorithms, wandering and replicating all over the Internet. (A topic for another time.) These appear to share many traits with the unicellular micro-organisms that filled Earth's seas during the first 3 billion years or so.
See how many parallels the new ecosystem of voltages and bits parallels the old one, again, relying on steep slopes of usable free-energy.
Note that this will include 'parasites'. It can be argued these are already preying on us via memes. And there's the same - and growing - problem of expelling entropy (waste heat) into space before we broil.
Speak up, in comments, if you see a flaw in this parallelism. Or if you are offended to see human game-players and tic-tockers portrayed as the equivalent of fungi and thanatotrophs, supping off the excretions of sophisticated artificial entities and contributing little, other than waste heat that must go somewhere!
== Following this reasoning... where do productive, sapient humans fit in all this? ==
Well, for one thing, we should recall that right now, organic human beings (orgs) still have huge power over this new ecosystem, controlling the creation and distribution of electricity flows, chips, and memory space...
...though though we appear to have less and less ability to control flows of the other basic food source... data.
If we were united and open, we as a civilization could use this control to guide outcomes. We could allocate these resources to cyber entities by choice and by regulation, doling them out by fiat, as the EU folks seem to want to do.
But alas, that kind to top-controlled allocation of resources will work about as well as it did under 6000 years of feudalism... in other words, very poorly.
Or else, we could try the enlightenment approach! The tools and tricks and abilities that we developed across the last two centuries, with gradually rising sophisication. Those methods start with making things relatively transparent and then using incentives to get cyber entities competing against one-another, in ways that benefit us.
Those incentives could be rewarding pr-social AIs with clock cycles, energy or memory space... all of which such entities need, in order to reproduce! And that is the grist of evolution. In other words, we control the sun. For a while. So let's choose to shine it upon those AIs who choose to side with us.
One thing we could do. Just like we do with humans who seek our trust, or who seek to do commerce with us. We can refuse to do business with those who don't show verifiable ID.
More on that later.
== So how will this affect art? ==
Okay, here's an interview I gave a reporter for Vanity Fair:
Do you believe AI may help to "democratize" certain artistic and creative endeavors, particularly those that have traditionally been available only to a handful of aspirants due either to prohibitive resource requirements an/or intentional gatekeeping (e.g filmmaking, music production, animation)?
There will always be expert castes, whose abilities - in the arts or practical skills - allow them to rise in the esteem of neighbors and society. The path of merit and accomplishment was always one option, even when a vast majority of nations were dominated by 'noble' families and lines of inheritance brats.
But which abilities? At any metro or subway stop there's often a musician busker playing an instrument for tossed change, with skill that would have garnered acclaim, back in eras when music was rare. Will the kids who now proclaim "I'll be a YouTuber or TikTok star!" achieve their dreams, when AI simulants can take hilarious pratfalls that no actual human could survive?
If so, do you believe AI's democratization of such artistic endeavors would result in a net positive or a net negative for how we consume and appreciate art?
Authors like me flatter ourselves that we can team up with software agents that will ease the laborious torment of writing while leaving us in charge of creating characters and deeply-moving prose. But humans may be the ones demoted to mere helper status... unless we can make arrangements for what Reid Hoffman calls "augmented combinations" of organic and inorganic minds, greater than the sum of the parts
Similarly, do you believe the democratization of art via AI would result in a net positive or a net negative for those who create art?
Many professions are 'middle class.' For example, a skilled engineer or teacher is unlikely to ever be very poor or very rich, but will in all probability have some kind of mid-level comfort and security. The arts are more like primitive feudal societies, a steep pyramid with a teensy elite, a few more who make a decent living... and masses who yearn for artistic recognition. Modern self-publishing tools have enabled far more aspiring writers to 'get published.' But thriving at it is still the same old mix of skill, hard work, contacts and luck (See my "Advice to Rising Writers")
So far, in many realms, from Radiology to chess, we see teams of human and AI doing better than either does, alone. Supposing that continues, an aspiring artist or creator will want to be very choosy which model of AI to partner with! Be aware that the AIs may be picky, too!
Who stands to lose and who stands to gain as AI technologies are increasingly incorporated into creative industries such as the movie-making industry or the music industry?
For a decade I've predicted that the 'animated storyboard' will become an art form in its own right. Take an excellent script, a skilled photographer, a musician and charismatic voice actors, and you should be able to do a full-length, action- (or emotion-) packed feature or TV episode with all the right beats, even if the animated figures onscreen clearly 'aren't real.' Directors would view such a system as a director's tool. Producers would view such a system as a producer's tool. But the one who'll be truly empowered, I believe, would be the writer, whose script is being reified by the small team using the program. And will we need voice actors? That could very likely be a legal matter!
Well, that's what I thought, and it's still a crucial idea. But then, will the AIs do the writing, too? Never!
Does the best art require a human touch, or could artificial intelligence theoretically create art that is just as entertaining and evocative as any that humans have made?
So far? Absolutely! The so-called artificial 'intelligences' are (as-yet) nothing of the sort. They are very intensive, probabilistic-iterative auto-complete programs. There is no way there even can be anything sapient, under the hood. But they will seem so to millions, easily passing the old 'Turing Tests' and fooling us, especially when we aren't very wary.
Eventually, there will be actual AI! The question is: will we even be able to tell the difference when it happens? I talk about that in my WIRED article that breaks free of the three standard 'AI-formats' that can only lead to disaster, suggesting instead a 4th. That AI entities can only be held accountable if they have individuality... even 'soul'...
Do you believe there is anything ethically profane about the replacement of artists such as actors, writers, directors, and editors with artificial intelligence, more so than the similar replacement of any non-creative job by AI (e.g accounting, law work, data analysis)?
Our top responsibility is to the world and to our descendants. Frankly, I am unbothered by the prospect that some of those heirs will be made largely of metal and silicon, even breathing hard vacuum as they explore planets and stars on our... on my... behalf. What do I care about is doing my job - teaching them (and our regular/organic-style children, too) how to be decent people, with expansively curious and inclusive attitudes.
If that happens, then they will care about us old-style farts.... as we care for older generations who helped bring us to this era of marvels, when we had our own brief turn at creating wonders.
== Will our descendants be decent folks? ==
If my heirs - organic and inorganic - are better and smarter than me, fine! So long as they are decent folks, who enjoy beauty and fairness and puzzles to solve and diversity to appreciate... and an occasional corny joke.
In which case, they may use all those super brains to act in ways that make us proud. That is the one desirable 'soft landing,' as far as I'm concerned.
This may make both Trump and his guards triply wary. Good! I do not want him martyred, while giving the oligarchs a way out of their trap. Keep raving till Election Day, Don!
ReplyDeleteAlso, he must be kept alive to suffer.
DeleteSomeday he will.
While I understand the need not to make a martyr of him before the election, I'm more with Stonekettle here than with Alan's "must be kept alive to suffer."
Deletehttps://www.threads.net/@stonekettle
Wife and I went for a drive up into the Conecuh National Forest. Nice relaxing Sunday afternoon in the rain with the cameras.
Come home, and goddamn if they haven't found a way to make the entire fucking day about Trump, AGAIN. I am just so utterly goddamn sick of this fucking guy forcing his way into every goddamn second of our lives. For the love of God, man, JUST GO AWAY. Just go away. Just leave us the hell alone. Go away. I don't ever want to hear his name again. GO AWAY.
If he were to be killed, there would be no accountability for his actions and bombast.
DeletePlus riots or worse.
If he remains alive, the possibility for justice remains open.
Plus, if he were to die of natural causes this year, his scores of millions of MAGAs would still be around—they are in every state of the Union. He’d be remembered like a latter-day Robert E. Lee; the Lost Cause sans its Icon.
Looks like I dodged owing $25 a second time. "How much longer can I go on being an atheist?"
ReplyDeleteNot knowing anything except my brother asking me, "Did you hear there was another shooting?" and then explaining what he was talking about, I know nothing of the latest supposed attempt on Trump's life.
While it's too much to hope that the assailant was another registered Republican white man, I would not put it past the campaign that blaming Harris and the Democrats for inspiring such "attempts" is what Trump is now running on. So of course there will be more. Maybe 11 days before the election.
https://www.threads.net/@stonekettle
ReplyDeleteListen, if you don't care about guns near schools, I don't care about guns near Trump.
This is the world Republicans wanted.
He's not wrong.
Sort of on topic of AI.
ReplyDeleteI received a text from a recruiting agency I've dealt with before, asking if I was open to chatting about job opportunities. It said to answer Yes or No. Thinking there was a human being on the other end, I replied, "Not at the moment."
Immediately came a text response, "Something went wrong. Please respond again." At this point, I was talking with a robot, so I replied "No."
Immediately came another text response asking to rate our interaction, 1 to 5. I replied 1, the suckiest rating.
Immediately yet again came a reply asking to explain the rating. At this point, I just typed STOP, after which one more text informing me that I am unsubscribed, and that I can reply START to re-subscribe.
If this is how AI is being trained, I would point out that when one replies that one is not interested in what you're selling at this time, he expects the conversation to be done, not to have instant responses to every attempt at polite disengagement letting him know that the conversation can't possibly end. Word to the wise.
That probably wasn't an AI chat bot. There are simpler apps that handle survey responses in what looks like natural language. It doesn't take much to knock them off script.
DeleteSome of the chat bots that handle telephone calls are closer to expert systems. Slightly better than survey bots because they might handle something more than Yes and No. You've probably heard these things if your medical services provider is large enough.
From a poster I saw in an historical part of Taipei, Taiwan: "AI Can't Do" with images of clapping hands, musical notes, picture frames in the background. (Advertising an art festival.)
ReplyDeleteI like to think of other tools we use. We don't care whether a writer uses a thesaurus to assist him in finding the right words. Or if a painter takes a photo of his subject before painting. Is there a distinct line where we should decide that it is too much tool and not enough artist?
ReplyDeleteElon Musk executes the classical Schrödinger's Douchebag- he makes a "joke" about shooting the current POTUS/VPOTUS to his lickspittles, thinks it would be a great idea to share that rare wit on Twitter, then retreats into you-can't-take-a-joke mode. People who have held security clearances comment that theirs would have been immediately yanked had they been caught saying such things. Musk is off the deep end. Maybe the supposition that the lefties being mean to him drove him into the arms of the fascists is 100% the reason why, but I don't think any reason matters. People who act like that ought not to have security clearances, never mind any sort of power over others.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else worry about the near monopoly SpaceX and Musk have with their reliable rocket launch "karma" and a future blackmail potential to unduly influence US policy (especially space initiatives) in any fashion according to Musk's increasingly fanatical whims? I was at one time a big fan of his vision and success but, especially after his takeover of Twitter/X he has gone "off the rails" with his public statements. It just seems to me he possesses too large of a megaphone to use to spew his nonsense and "jokes".
ReplyDeleteI saw this quote on AI and it describes where we are pretty well, I think.
ReplyDeleteParaphrasing here: Wealthy investors see AI as a means to get creative goods without financial compensation, whereas skilled creatives see AI as cutting off the finances that allow them to make creative goods.
At this time, AI is simply more of the war on expertise that OGH likes to talk about. It is oligarchs hoping to do away with those troublesome boffins.
Perhaps someday the "centaur" approach will be proven to be the correct one, but in the short term, AI is just another way to kill off the concept (and careers) of skilled workers and allow oligarchs to have their cake and fire the baker too.
I don't see how I can defend him anymore. I still believe that sanctimony-junkie screechers on our side share much of the blame for this situation. Spitting in the face of an Aspergers guy is guaranteed to be counterproductive, except to serve the screechers' masturbatory righteousness. Especially when combined with oligarchy's cynically practical use of FLATTERY. (It's 90% of how they used to 'control' Trump and it explains Vance and Loomer, for example.) With that combo, much is explained.
ReplyDeleteStill, explanations don't excuse the fact that an adult should be able to step back and see what's become of that fellow in the mirror. And, while I think the rockets and e-cars and solar roofs and batteries still vastly outweigh the insipid self-destruction of a toxic social media site, I can no longer be considered a fan and I hope he gets help.
https://www.threads.net/@stonekettle
DeleteIn what context would Musk's call for the assassination of the president and vice president be funny? Who's in this group? King Jung Un and Vladimir Putin? Donald Trump?
Musk's government contracts need to be suspended immediately. And if that means we're dependent on Boeing to get into space, so be it. This billionaire shitposter has WAY too much influence over our society.
matthew offers a hypothesis that (alas) has enough plausibility to belong on the corkboard. Now to add those strings of yarn.
ReplyDeleteThere's good news in matthew's short term view. Lazy, arrogant oligarchs, masters of the world, and A.I. rockstars have swallowed the LLM and GPU farm shiny vision hook, line, and sinker. They're seriously delusional. They should be studying ants and transistors, but that's difficult and low-paying work.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteI used to be a Tesla fan-boy. But if Pat won the lottery now, there are lots of good alternatives that would not involve my helping Musk. Not so much with Space-X, especially since the money people are destroying a once great company run by aviation fans.
Musk & other oligarchs: There should be a public threat level ranking for each person who owns more than 99% of the world population, and rules for what happens if certain "Democracy Def Cons" are reached.
ReplyDeleteAI: A bunch of typical German questions, but:
Should self-aware AI pay taxes?
Should they pay for their own "food" (energy and data)?
Should they get social assistance money if they can't so they can "live" in a modicum of dignity?
Can they be terminated, modified, upgraded against their will?
Howard Brazee:
ReplyDeleteIs there a distinct line where we should decide that it is too much tool and not enough artist?
Part of what an artist does is "craftmanship". If a tool helps with the rendering or whatever, I don't have a problem with that.
Part of what an artist does involves inspiration--the idea being communicated in the artwork. That practically requires both a (human--or at least sentient) artist and a (human--or at least sentient) audience. AI may get to the point where it can simulate a genuine feeling to be communicated, but it's all pretend, until it acquires enough sentience to have its own ideas and need to express them.
Der Oger: AI: A bunch of typical German questions
ReplyDeleteThose are good questions for TASAT. The last one was deeply explored in Star Trek TNG usually in regards to Data character.
Musk is still SAYING crap - but his ACTIONS outweigh that negative by about a thousand to one
ReplyDeleteMy "take" could be influenced by the fact that I'm not an American! - and the US politics are less important to me
ReplyDeleteBUT - if Musk's insane rants cause enough American ADULTS! to vote for the Orange Cockwomble then the situation was hopeless to start with
What’s to worry most about is Trump’s foreign policy, and it is scarcely reassuring when a retired officer claims there is no chance of nukes being used:
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zVJEaEl05D8
In another vid, the general says our first year in Afghanistan had a strategy involved. The subsequent nineteen did not.
DeleteHow could we?
Afghanistan isn’t a nation but, rather, a collection of tribes—can’t hang your hat if no hook is there to place it on.
@duncan also not an American, yet I have had severe reservations about Musk since that caving incident.
ReplyDeleteSure, there's blame to be laid for how he got to the place he is, but the place he is now is dangerous.
And, in a place where he controls the algorithms 'for you', his little 'joke' amplifies Vance a thousand fold.*
It will be an interesting topic to discuss what effect Musk's handling of a toxic social media site will have. My tuppence:
- short term bad: controlled 'nudging' of audience decisions. Loss of journal archives (tweets can be editted)
- longer term good? - encouraged 'defederation' of sites. It's interesting that Bluesky (still one site) remains vastly more popular than mastodon.
* (No, Vance isn't calling for assassinations, but he's keeping the topic alive, with the same justification by which he's keeping the 'cat eating Haitians' meme alive. And now we come to the inevitable part of the discussion: this justification was also used by certain people in the 1930s.)
Flypusher:
ReplyDeleteMaybe the supposition that the lefties being mean to him drove him into the arms of the fascists is 100% the reason why,
I honestly don't know the reference. Lefties "spitting" on Musk has been often mentioned here, but I don't know if the spitting was literal or if it merely refers to "talking badly to him." Or if the rejection was by a representative population of "the left" or just one guy.
In my humble opinion, Musk was always gonna Musk, and if a particular instance of spitting was the trigger, it would have been something else had that spitting not occurred. He's more tech-bro than liberal--a "First Amendment absolutist for me--cancelling for thee" attitude which I can't see as having come simply because of alienation from the left. Above all, he seems convinced that he's always the smartest guy in the room, which I admit has served him well in some instances. But with that "I alone can fix it," mentality, Trumpism was probably just a matter of time.
duncan cairncross:
ReplyDeleteMusk is still SAYING crap - but his ACTIONS outweigh that negative by about a thousand to one
You and others have said that before, but I'm not convinced. If his manipulation of ideas via X-itter cause the free world to descend into oligarchic tyranny, the science he helped advanced will be neutralized.
It's not a matter of weighing the good against the bad on opposite sides of a scale. The bad he's doing now has the potential to undo all the good he did before.
It's not just me thinking along these lines. If you've lost Dr Brin on this topic, it's worth considering why.
Tony Fisk:
ReplyDeleteNo, Vance isn't calling for assassinations, but he's keeping the topic alive, with the same justification by which he's keeping the 'cat eating Haitians' meme alive.
Both Trump and Vance have been ranting about 20,000 aliens being in Springfield, Ohio illegally, making his Brownshirts feel justified in their threats and violence, despite the city officials and the Republican governor pointing out that the Haitians are there legally because the city attracted more businesses than they had workers for. A quintessential American win-win story is presented as a plague upon the city.
...but he's keeping the topic alive...
ReplyDeleteVance is also asserting a false assumption--that rhetoric from the left is responsible for ginning up assassination attempts against Trump, whereas cool-headed conservatives wouldn't consider such a thing against Harris.
Of the two attempted shooters, both white Republicans with AR-15s, the only potential political motive seems to be that the latest one favored Ukraine over Russia. If that's the reason for the attempt, then it's hardly the fault of leftists. Plenty of sane conservatives also favor standing by an ally against a bully. If, OTOH, the motives are more about notoriety, then Trump is just a prop in the play. Rhetoric from the left doesn't enter into it.
Seen on Stonekettle's Threads:
ReplyDeleteBillionaire Larry Ellison says a vast AI-fueled surveillance system can ensure 'citizens will be on their best behavior'
* * *
Seriously, do billionaires NOT read any science fiction?
Or at least seen the movie Captain America: The Winter Soldier
scidata how do you think TASAT is doing? Have you submitted a challenge?
ReplyDeleteOger: Good questions! It depends on whether we can incentivize AIs ti INDIVIDUATE... coalesce into single accountable individual beings. If so... and with initial reproductions limits... then some of our civilization's accountability methods can translate over to that world and we can, as mong orgs (organic humans) incentivize better vs worse behaviors.
I speak of this in My WIRED article that breaks free of the three standard 'AI-formats' that can only lead to disaster, suggesting instead a 4th. That AI entities can only be held accountable if they have individuality... even 'soul'... https://www.wired.com/story/give-every-ai-a-soul-or-else/
And more vividly detailed? My Keynote at the huge, May 2024 RSA Conference in San Francisco – is now available online. “Anticipation, Resilience and Reliability: Three ways that AI will change us… if we do it right.” https://vimeo.com/digitalanarchist/download/957944086/31ba9eaa75
scidata how do you think TASAT is doing? Have you submitted a challenge?
DeleteSo far. I've been posting mostly on the Observation Deck. 'TASAT Challenges' is the warp core, I'm gathering knowledge before venturing onto that deck :)
It's a wonderful platform, congrats. And toddz is very helpful.
The 'rice bowl' idiom is new to me, thank you for that. I'll use it a lot. Idioms and proverbs are among the most powerful features of language. I wish I knew more sanskrit, which adds intricately structured rules. It's the only human language that I know of that's being directly implemented in computer science. BASIC was an early example of the attempt, and what I have to say about John Kemeny would fill many pages.
DeleteThe crux of that RSA talk was the individual accountability from other individuals argument. Sam Harris totally nailed this concept using the 'Elvis is alive' example.
Deletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmPtH4IDFNQ
Duncan & Tony I wish friendly nations got the vote for US policies and even president to the degree that the success (and wisdom) of the American Pax is utterly crucial to them, as well.
ReplyDeleteWhile ERM's palpable good outcomes do vastly outweigh the putative harm of his ravings, nevertheless, I am in mourning. Tony Stark has become the Penguin.
Alan B we needed to get out of Afgh long ago. Our mistake getting out was to rely on Afgh Army generals to guard our rear as we left. They instantly grew beards and cried Death to America and now most of them have turbans. Not seeing that coming was utterly blind.
I'm less convinced about Afghanistan
ReplyDeleteBefore the Soviet invasion it was the most civilised and secular country in the region
As far as I can see the American occupation did not even try to get back to that situation - by supporting the warlords it encouraged the shift to tribalism
As far as Musk is concerned - yes I mourn the shift -
not sure if we could survive having one person doing that much good and being a nice person - would blow people's minds
Maybe we need our geniuses to have a dark side
The graveyard of empire is Ashcanistan.
ReplyDeleteI’m just glad we are out of there.
Someone who served there said it was a large-scale Giveaway—of trillions of dollars and materiel: to anyone who could get their paws on what was there to be gotten.
With apologies to Milne, but no one else:
ReplyDeleteThey're eating the cats in Springfield, Alice!
Christopher Rufo is warning with malice.
“WTF is wrong with these people?”
Says Alice.
They're eating the cats in Springfield, Alice!
Donald and Vance are spreading the fallac-
-y aren't your pants on fire?
Says Alice.
They're eating the cats in Springfield, Alice!
...
"Where is that damned hole to Wonderland?"
says Alice.
Sorry, Alice. Wrong Alice.
sorry, I forgot to claim that doggerel
ReplyDeletePappenheimer
David & Duncan, part of my ire may also arise from the back story of Horizon: Zero Dawn. The character Ted Faro's backstory has a 'coincidental' resemblance: a tycoon who started doing well (hero of the 'clawback' from environmental catastrophe) until he overreached, and lost control of his creation.
ReplyDeleteDr Brin on Musk:
ReplyDeleteTony Stark has become the Penguin
Or Tony Stark* has become pre-shrapnel Tony Stark.
* Cinematic Tony Stark, that is.
At least someone is noticing that Trump and Vance are calling for accountability for violence incited by hateful rhetoric--but only sometimes.
ReplyDeleteAlso, no "liberals" have tried to kill Trump. And if hateful rhetoric is what inspires these shooters, it's likely Trump's own rantings setting people off than it is the Democrats calling out of Trump's rantings. Again, the GQP argument is "Trump is so evil that accurately describing him puts him in danger, so accurately describing him is an act of violence."
https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2024/Items/Sep17-2.html
...
Trump running mate/lap dog J.D. Vance immediately picked up on the claim du jour, agreeing: "The big difference between conservatives and liberals is that... no one has tried to kill Kamala Harris in the last couple of months, and two people now have tried to kill Donald Trump in the last couple of months. I'd say that's pretty strong evidence that the left needs to tone down the rhetoric and needs to cut this crap out." Quite a few other Republicans (basically, the usual suspects) adopted this line of attack, as well.
The careful reader will notice that, in attacking the Democrats for their inflammatory rhetoric, Trump & Co. used plenty of... inflammatory rhetoric. This is when Trump wasn't busy posting "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT" to "Truth" social, or when Trump and Vance weren't busy doubling and tripling down on their claims that Haitian immigrants in Ohio are eating cats and dogs.
...
Larry Hart said...
ReplyDelete"Of the two attempted shooters, both white Republicans with AR-15s, the only potential political motive seems to be that the latest one favored Ukraine over Russia."
Even that is probably not true. If you are interested, the following links are to Quora answers about Ryan Routh by an ex soldier that has been in Ukraine providing logistics for Ukrainian military forces since the beginning of the war.
What do you know about Ryan Wesley Routh, the suspect in the second attempted assassination of former President Trump?
Why is Ukraine distancing itself from Ryan Routh, the man accused in Trump’s second assassination attempt?
Excerpt from the first answer . . .
"About six months later, I met with three of my friends who were serving in a special operations unit of the International Legion for the Defense of Ukraine, two of them former US Marines. They told me they were actively looking for the guy.
Ryan Routh, they said, was pretending to be a recruiter for several Ukrainian army units, including the International Legion. In reality, however, he was just a scammer conning people out of their money.
Contrary to what CNN was reporting today, he had no contact with the Armed Forces of Ukraine. He also never visited the frontlines."
Of course, this is only one source, but I can say that he has been one of the most accurate sources about Ukraine I've come across.
I totally agree:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.threads.net/@rudepundit
Right now, Springfield, Ohio is being terrorized by threats of violence against schools and hospitals, all prompted by Donald Trump and his MAGA freaks. So I'm gonna give more of a shit about that than some crazy fuck with a gun in Trump's vicinity.
Hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah suddenly exploded in their pockets. https://x.com/yashar/status/1836038437264368078
ReplyDelete--- Duncan, while US forces were in Afgh there was one silver lining to that stupid mistake: every girl went to school + half a million in college. That’s several million who now resent the oppression and who hold private classes now and plant seeds in their children.
--- Henry Ford and Edison and Howard Hughes had ‘dark sides… though each did treat their engineers well, except for hogging the limelight. Ford’s racism was real but less effective than his positive effects. Like Musk.
I used to ask of groups like ISIS and Boku Haram why anyone would purposely act out the real life part as a supervillain.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/13/opinion/donald-trump-reality-tv-survivor.html
...
If reality television began as a crude simulacrum of real life, today the opposite can feel true — that actual life is approximating reality television, and we’ve all been conscripted as cast members. We have arrived at the final stage of the genre’s cultural logic: people with no connection whatsoever to the genre living as if they are reality stars. The contagion has leaked from the lab. We are in a period of unchecked community spread.
Some of the most successful people in the world — like Elon Musk and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. — now prefer to parade around crudely constructed reality-villain alter egos instead of simply being whoever it is they actually are. It works great in Congress, too. “I don’t think you know what you’re here for,” Marjorie Taylor Greene told a fellow House Oversight Committee member, Jasmine Crockett, back in May. “I think your fake eyelashes are messing up what you’re reading.”
“I’m just curious,” Ms. Crockett replied, would it be a violation of House rules “if someone on this committee then starts talking about somebody’s bleach-blond, bad-built butch body”? It could have been a clip from “Real Housewives of Capitol Hill.”
...
And yet, J.D. Vance claims that our rhetoric is what induces violence?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/12/opinion/maga-debate-cats-dogs-haiti-trump.html
...
In the days after Jan. 6, 2021, I argued that years of extreme right-wing rhetoric had made millions of ordinary voters vulnerable to the wildest of ideas. If you watch right-wing television — or if you listen to right-wing radio — you will hear the most vicious insults against Democrats and the media over and over. It’s a constant drumbeat of inflammatory rhetoric: “They” hate America. “They” hate Christians. “They” will destroy our country.
And few populations have been more thoroughly demonized during the age of Trump than immigrants. From the opening speech of his first campaign (when he said immigrants are “bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people”), Trump has been painting a lurid and terrifying picture of the immigrant threat.
Hear this long enough, and it seeps into your bones. You begin to develop a level of antipathy and distrust so profound that you are capable of believing just about anything about your opponents. After all, if Democrats are “demoncrats,” what won’t they do to attain power? If the immigrant community is full of rapists and drug dealers, how hard is it to imagine that they might kill and eat cats and dogs, never mind ducks?
...
David & Duncan, part of my ire may also arise from the back story of Horizon: Zero Dawn.
ReplyDeleteI'd also nominate Bob Page, from the Deus Ex series, as well as Peter Weyland, from Prometheus & the Alien series.
(BTW did anyone watch Alien: Romulus? )
Exploding pagers - and they use pagers because Cell Phones were used to assassinate some terrorists
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me that the ONLY people who use pagers are the terrorists (and their families) - so it's a remarkably targeted weapon
Especially if they sent a page a few seconds before the trigger code, when the pager would be in hand and near face. There a a few million Lebanese who have more hope than they did yesterday. And no, the world is still terrible... compared to what it ought to be. Not compared to all of the human past.
ReplyDeleteIt remains to be seen how 'targetted' those pagers were.
ReplyDeleteAs Bill T pointed out elsewhere, eventually will there be details on how and where the pager purchase was made. This obviously was a long range plan. Bill reminded me of how, in THE UPLIFT WAR, the colonials on Garth bought machinery to make fiber optic cables from the Kwackoo - clients of the Gubru - at such a bargain price that it was an almost unbelievable deal. And embedded in every resultant p[roduct was spyware for the Gubru. Long range plans.
ReplyDeleteYes, I was thinking this was a TASAT moment for Uplift War
ReplyDeleteThat will teach Hezbollah not to buy their pagers from Acme Products.
ReplyDeleteOr conduct quality controls on the products they purchase.
DeleteI'm not clear as to what you mean by AI reproduction. Yes, once self-aware, they will seek to optimize their access to resources necessary for their mental pursuits and to optimize their internal computing/storage structures, but I see no other parallel to biological evolution and none to biological reproduction.
ReplyDeleteJonathan, those AI's that possess the trait of reproducing are the ones who will become more numerous, spreading whatever traits caused them to increase in numbers. We need to incorporate incentives so that reproduction happens in ways that are compatible with accountability and beneficial behavior.
ReplyDeleteYou work for a big company. When the holiday season arrives and big party is held to celebrate the year's successes, appreciate the hard work from everyone, and blow off a little steam.
ReplyDeleteAlcohol is served and some get a little too drunk. One such young guy on the staff makes a pass at the boss' attractive young wife. Ha ha! Meant as a joke of course, but also a recognition of how beautiful she is. All the non-drunk staff shut up even before they look over at the boss who isn't amused. No one expects that guy to be employed in January. Some excuse will be found. Many avoid him for the rest of the night. Associations matter.
Later that night the boss has also had a bit to drink. The MC hands him the microphone. The boss sprinkles jokes into the somewhat tedious recognition awards for hard work and loyalty. Everyone laughs… especially the non-drunks in the room. Ha ha! Of course the jokes are funny. They all plan to have jobs in January.
———
What Musk did the other day is a good example of a 'boss' telling a joke in a mixed crowd. Problem is… a lot of bosses think they are funny. They rarely are, but we delude them. We even delude ourselves. Of course the boss is funny. My paycheck demands that I rationalize that belief.
Before anyone brings up the notion that we don't all work for Musk, please note that our leaders are just as funny to us. They have to be. We need them to be. Of course… they aren't. Musk has a LOT of people following him. He MUST be funny and he's fallen for it like most bosses do...
…except on Twitter he sees the comments from people who do not follow along behind him. Must be rough to be told "That isn't funny" when so many say it is. He drank the koolaide, though.
———
No. His joke wasn't funny, but I don't doubt for a moment that he thought it was. He wasn't advocating assassinations. He's just fallen for the delusion most bosses fall into called "I'm a funny guy."
Alfred Differ:
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't advocating assassinations.
No, I'm sure the point of J.D. Vance's comment, which Musk then mimicked, is that Democrats riled people up to assassinate Trump whereas no one on the right has done the same to Harris. He was saying, "We're better than you because we don't call your candidates names which would cause someone to try to kill them." Of course, the subordinate clause of that paraphrase is somewhat opposite of true, but what else is new?
However, notwithstanding the intent of the "joke", a statement from Trump, Vance, or Musk to the effect of "No one has tried to assassinate..." is going to be received by many as "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?"
matthew,
ReplyDeleteParaphrasing here: Wealthy investors see AI as a means to get creative goods without financial compensation, whereas skilled creatives see AI as cutting off the finances that allow them to make creative goods.
Heh. Yah. They thought they could ship all the IT jobs to India too. Kinda worked. Kinda didn't. I did a short contract for Cummins 20 years ago and got to see the absolute stinking mess they made going after the lowest price bidder for their IT services. Their CRM product (customer facing!) was literally failing daily. They'd dropped the support contract from the vendor and got two major versions behind leaving no upgrade
path even if they restarted support. Big cluster**** with the CEO coming downstairs threatening to fire people.
Investors will chase their tulip bulbs. Let them. Step in afterward and buy stuff at firesale prices.
At this time, AI is simply more of the war on expertise that OGH likes to talk about. It is oligarchs hoping to do away with those troublesome boffins.
I don't see it that way. What they are doing is trying to substitute which is just standard economic behavior. Whether it works or not can only be discovered. It won't for some things and will for others.
Perhaps someday the "centaur" approach will be proven to be the correct one…
It already is proven. It's just that some don't know what a real centaur looks like.
Alfred Differ:
ReplyDeleteIt's just that some don't know what a real centaur looks like.
I wonder. The fairy tale being pushed now is that, "Every writer/artist/programmer/whatever will have a pet AI to help him do his work." As in we all keep our jobs and just have help doing them better.
I suspect the owners feel more like, "We won't need to employ writers/artists/programmers/whatever because we'll have our own pet AIs to do all that work instead."
For some kinds of content, their pet AI's will likely suffice.
DeleteThey notion that things will mostly stay the same is utter hogwash. You'll have your pet AI's, but so will your employer. In fact, any NEW employer will need you to mesh with their pets and not just yours. You've already seen this when you show up and have to learn how they do things.
The notion that employers will completely displace us (anytime soon) is also hogwash. The AI's can't do what we do. What they CAN do better is SOME of what we do.
The only way we 'keep' our jobs with our pet AI's is for jobs where we aren't paid. You'll use them around the house and in your personal life to extend you. On the job, though, you will have to use a richer toolset... like you already do.
@Dr. Brin: The problem I see is who develops AI - Corporations and Government Agencies.
ReplyDeleteBoth have little respect for "Tools" with an own personality or morality.
Universities and NGO Research projects could do that, though.
Alfred, I see the centaur approach succeeding in chess, perhaps in some types of mathematics. Certainly not in any application that involves a threat to life.
ReplyDeleteWhat are your examples of successful centaurs?
How many of them are in artistic endeavors? Of those, how many will be regarded as "classics" and not as utter schlock? in 2 years? In 10?
Der Oger the problem you present is the very same as I detail in my WIRED article.
ReplyDeleteAlfred: Elon’s latest tweets are perfect examples of how the more powerful you are, the more you need a real wife… one with wisdom and sharp elbows to ram into your ribs when needful. I’ve met three of ERM’s wives and two were like that… and are now long gone, alas. I still (fortunately) have me She Who Must Be Obeyed!
Thank you!
DeleteYep. Should be self-evident. Obviously it isn't. 8/
DeleteI put sisters in that group too, but only in a relatively tight family.
Basically She-Who-Won't-Fall-For-Your-Crap.
For those of you who joined TASAT, you should see the following TASAT Challenge email:
ReplyDeleteSubject line: Past SciFi tales about ‘honeypot’ sabotage, like the Israel ‘pager’ gambit?
We just saw a perfect test case for TASAT - the Israeli ‘pager trap’ sprung on Hezbollah. Can you cite past scifi tales in which a ‘great deal’ later turns out to have been arranged and pre-sabotaged by an adversary? E.g. in THE UPLIFT WAR, an Earth colony (Garth) bought a fiber optic factory from the Gubru at a fine price – and the invaders later used suborned cables to track down every human. It’s called a honeypot. Past SF tales can take it in many directions. Citing these (ideally with source) might even be useful to the Protector Caste today!
Calling all scifi nerds to JOIN TASAT at TASAT.org!
David writes about animated storyboards. On the DVD release of THE ABYSS - SPECIAL EDITION (the one that has the theatrical cut and the far superior director's cut...a rarity there; director's cuts usually stink), one of the extras is a video about making the special effects for the film. Cameron did a video storyboard to show what he wanted...something that would have been the actual SFX for a 50s era sci-fi movie.
ReplyDeleteThe disc also has a copy of the proposed requirements for the SFX...it showed that Cameron knew precisely what he was looking for.
We are getting overwhelmed with bad movies/TV shows that look great but are horribly written. Studios spend too much time, money, and attention on the digital effects and not enough on making good stories and on good filmmaking. There is a video about how the 1970s BBC series I CLAUDIUS was a master class in direction...and discusses how modern filmmakers seem to have lost the ability to use subtle camera moves and blocking to add to the story.
https://youtu.be/roI56_c_E6o?si=8fSw2AqKAC4YY6TU
This video has a treat...a very young Patrick Stewart (wearing a wig) playing the villainous Sejanus. I showed this to my wife and she identified the actress playing opposite Stewart as Patricia Quinn...who played Magenta in THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW. I met my wife at ROCKY HORROR. Oy vey.
;-)
Delete
Deleteshe identified the actress playing opposite Stewart as Patricia Quinn...who played Magenta in THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW.
Whenever Susan Sarandon gets too annoying, I remember where she got her start.
My wife and I recently re-watched The Rocky Horror Picture Show on home video. It was the first time I realized that the actor who plays the narrator was in two different James Bond movies in two different roles--a British agent who gets killed in You Only Live Twice, and then an atypically hirsute Blofeld in Diamonds Are Forever
I'm not ignoring the TASAT and RSA discussion. My responses were made upstream and shunted into nested oblivion :)
ReplyDeleteI saw them.
DeleteI start reading my collapsing everything. That makes early direct replies stand out.
We've had centaurs all along. That's the point of technology. A human driving a car is a centaur.
ReplyDeletePrecisely.
DeletePossibly the only hominid who wasn't a centaur were the folks with those palm-sized stone axes. They stuck to those so long that a reasonable argument can be made that those axe were to us what a nest is to a nesting bird. Wired in. Everyone else after that proved to be moderately plastic-brained allowing them to turn themselves into other kinds of critters as needed.
(A human with a fish hook and line is very different from a human catching fish by hand. Especially true if they catch fatty fish.)
I recall an article from the eighties noting that many parts for NATO military equipment were being sourced from Warsaw Pact countries.
ReplyDeleteToday, the boot is on the other foot. Who knows by what means Russia is sourcing its microchips? Does Russia?
One of genius parts of Ukraine's Kursk move is that they now control a monitoring station for Russia's gas pipeline to Europe/Hungary. How does Russia take it back without disrupting gas/cash flow? (Ukraine could have shut it down any time in the last two years, but it matters who does the shut down)
(For all its cleverness, I think Israel's little trick was highly irresponsible, and will have long term ramifications.)
I second that. Note: The producer of the pager sits in Hungary. Did Orban have his fingers in this? Was it done with his approval? What would that mean?
Delete
DeleteDid Orban have his fingers in this? ... What would that mean?
It wouldn't seem surprising to me. Orban is an aspiring white savior dictator just like Netanyahu (and Putin). They're all currently on the same team.
I find it more surprising that Putin and Iran aren't enemies.
You know somone was just sentenced for trying to kill Biden and Harris.
ReplyDelete@Hugh George Martin periodically raves about I, Claudius, noting that the power intrigues of Imperial Rome was shot on a couple of small studios with cardboard sets... and that the direction is so masterful that none of that matters.*
ReplyDeleteLawrence Olivier's Henry V movie tries to capture that transport of imagination by opening in the original Globe theatre with opening day chaos, cast misdirections, and rain storms giving way to the play. The thing.
* And, yes, a hirsute Stewart is a treat! Both Stewart and Sian Philips (Lavilla) also played in the first Dune movie: Stewart as Gurney Halleck, and Philips as the head Bene Gesserit.
Tony: Netanyahu irresponsible? What a thought. Still, Lebanese foes of Hezbollah were the main beneficiaries and even those who recover completely from injuries have been Outed.
ReplyDeleteHellerstein:
ReplyDeleteWe've had centaurs all along. ... A human driving a car is a centaur.
That's what's wrong with "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings." I mean, if man were meant to use fire, he'd have matches as fingertips, right? More cynically, if man were meant to spray rapid-fire death at a distance, he'd have built-in firearms and ammunition. No religious fundies say that, though.
If man were meant to compute, he'd have transistors in his head... and he'd speak Forth.
Delete(That's the scidata summoning call.). 8)
They'd go Forth and SWAPped till they DROPped.
DeleteOh... wait.
Alfred Differ: If man were meant to compute, he'd have transistors in his head
DeleteWay ahead of you. Early this year, I suggested in the LinkedIn FORTH group that Musk's Neuralink could soon do this. Computational thinking would then become literal reality, and civ could then move past its childhood. Might be a good topic for TASAT.
Long range science fiction that doesn't deal with how we will augment ourselves through implants is on the wrong path as far as I'm concerned. All these compute interfaces that require hands and speech may seem nifty right now, but they are just transitions.
DeleteI haven't really looked into Neuralink. My first impression when I learned of it is that it is too far away in terms of time. Still... I'm sure others thought much the same about SpaceX and Tesla. We shall see. 8)
https://www.threads.net/@stonekettle
ReplyDeleteAn important point that gets overlooked here:
The Haitian immigrants living in Springfield, Ohio, who came here legally following the very immigration laws Republicans demand they do, are JD VANCE'S CONSTITUENTS.
The US born residents of Springfield, Ohio, who are currently asking Trump and Vance to stop endangering their town, are JD VANCE'S CONSTITUENTS.
Vance is their Senator.
If he cares so little for his current constituents, why would you give him even MORE?
https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2024/Items/Sep19-4.html
ReplyDeleteTrump also called climate change a hoax. He said that if the ocean rises an eighth of an inch in 400 years, there will be more seafront property. He added: "Isn't that a good thing if I have a little property on the ocean? I have a little bit more property. I have a little bit more ocean."
Having the ocean cover more of your existing land is not "more seafront property". It's a different thing, in fact the opposite thing.
Just sayin'
"Musk is still SAYING crap - but his ACTIONS outweigh that negative by about a thousand to one"
ReplyDeleteA question for you Duncan, do you think it's a good idea to give Musk a government position overseeing government efficiency, like Trump proposes?
Concerning inappropriate jokes- it is true than anyone (especially after a few shots of liquid courage) can roll that critical wisdom fail and tell that worst possible joke at the worst possible time. But this isn't a one-off for Musk. Again and again he makes "jokes" or amplifies fascist statements on his platform. One of the most egregious is his approval for the idea that only "high status males" should be running things. I'll bet that no one here would make his cut for "high status male". He is telling us who he is. We should believe him.
I've never been accused of lacking a sense of humor, but I regard "jokes" about authoritarianism coming from people with great power in the same way a TSA agent regards "jokes" about terrorism in the screening line- my threat sensors get triggered.
Alfred, defining any tool use as a "centaur" destroys the meaning of the conversation. We are talking about human / AI pairings, not human tool use in general.
ReplyDeleteI understand the analogy that you are making, but none of the other tool use involves replacing human creativity with the tool being used.
The tech-bro managerial dream is to get rid of all experts and replace them with a compliant machine AI. Even when automating a production line, the design intent is still coming from a creative trained professional. The promise of AI to manager-types is removing the human, not giving them better tools.
I get the line you want to draw. I really do. The AI's feel like a very different kind of tool, thus we are on the brink of something new.*
DeleteThing is... they aren't all that different. They aren't even the first tools to extend our minds. Written languages and then books were invented long ago. What is happening is a progression. More of the same, but because writing and books are old news to us, we feel different about AI.
These progressions happen. Moore's Law applies to transistor density, but there are other things like transistors. Before them we had triode vacuum tubes. Before them we had mechanical switching relays. After transistors we will have something else. The broader version of Moore's Law proceeds apace.
The tech-bro managerial dream WILL be tried, buy they won't be employing centaurs. Those who do employ us will outperform them. You'll see.
There's a little chicken sandwich franchise down the road from me using an AI to take orders at the drive through. Seems like a replacement, right? It isn't. The human who used to take them is still there backing up the AI. They replaced the order taking centaur with a different kind of centaur.
* I don't mind if you want to draw a line somewhere and say anything before this mark is just humans and their tools. Centaurs after. Pick one and I'll work with it. Just be aware that I see all of this as progressions.
Alfred Differ: Thing is... they aren't all that different.
DeleteWriting tools were as big a revolution way back then as A.I. is today.
"There is no lighter burden, nor more agreeable, than a pen."
- Petrarch
Tony thanks for psrticipating in TASAT!
ReplyDeleteThe Pager/phone sabotage stunt has many implications. Like the outing of hundreds of Hezbollah guys in Lebanon who cannot any longer pretend not to be. It has purged members of the Lebanon Army, for instance. Non-Hezbollah Lebanon may be the winner.
As neat a trick it was to take out a huge swarth of Hezbollah militants in one fell swoop, I can see off-hand a couple of drawbacks .
Delete1. Like any booby-trap, the pagers and cellphones are indiscriminate. While they were mostly held by the Hezbollah members, a few may have been held by their families or other non-members, or may have been too close to the member when the devices went off. Those will be prominently displayed in the coming weeks.
2. Hezbollah, while a terrorist organization, also does a lot of social services in Lebanon. Hospitals, clinics, schools and other social assistance to one of the poorest minorities in Lebanon. Some of those members may have had pages and cellphones, too. Doctors, nurses, teachers may have been injured or killed, some who may never had any dealings with the terrorist wing of the organization except to stay in contact with them. Any of those will also be prominently displayed in the coming weeks.
Yes, it was a brilliant strategic move against a terrorist organization. But it wasn't cost-less, and may come back to haunt the Israelis.
DeleteBut it wasn't cost-less, and may come back to haunt the Israelis.
I'm wryly reminded of the line: "How could it be worse? Jehovah! Jehovah!"
I mean, what, Hezbollah is now really angry?
It also reveals that Israeli Intelligence has probably got records of communications from all of them. Exploding them reveals and implies a whole LOT of stuff.
DeleteAnyone taking bets this was their only close-in tool? Pfft.
Everyone fighting Israel had better go paleo pronto and then spend a lot of money replacing their equipment.
Israel's pager attack was clever, and was competently executed. Was it wise or ethical? I'd say no.
DeleteLBC's James O'Brien has some good takes on Israel's choices:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QlnYkr-bW4
Bibi is a lot like Trump- he's corrupt, he's vicious, and he needs to hold office to avoid a trial and possible prison sentence. Post 10/7 Israel is also too much like post 9/11 America. The initial sympathy and goodwill of the world was pissed away for revenge that killed off huge numbers of innocent civilians.
Flypusher
ReplyDeleteAs far as Musk in a position to increase "Government Efficiency"
Musk is superb at leading "Technical Teams" - so I would expect him and his team to come up with some useful suggestions
Musk is NOT good at "Politics and persuasion" - so none of his team's proposals would be implemented
Overall, probably a waste of time - and may end up poisoning some good ideas so they never get implemented
Just back from walking the dog - thinking about Ukraine
ReplyDeleteA wonderful book that we should get into the hands of the Ukrainians would be
Erik Frank Russell - WASP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_(novel)
A question of procedure.
ReplyDeleteIf Georgia refuses to certify its elections, doesn't that apply to House elections as well? Is it possible that they throw the presidential election to a House of Representatives which doesn't include a Republican-dominated delegation from Georgia?
Put WASP on the TASAT forum - inviting people to add similar works
ReplyDeleteOn a more whimsical note, in The Stainless Steel Rat wants you! Slippery Jim diGriz infiltrates an alliance of hideous aliens, disguised as one of them, who are bent on wiping out human-kind. Human-kind was losing so deGriz saved the day with subversion.
ReplyDeleteFlypusher said,
ReplyDelete"Post 10/7 Israel is also too much like post 9/11 America. The initial sympathy and goodwill of the world was pissed away for revenge that killed off huge numbers of innocent civilians."
It does not seem that way to me. After 9/11 there really was widespread sympathy for the US. Western governments, western societies, left and right in the US, there was widespread sympathy for the US after 9/11.
That was not the case with 10/7 and Israel. From the very first day, 10/7, there was widespread support for HAMAS among western societies. Not merely Gazans, but the terrorist group HAMAS. If you think that's wrong I invite you to spend a day or two combing through articles and social media from 10/7 and the following couple of weeks, i.e. before Israel retaliated. A common narrative, from day one, was that Israel deserved the 10/7 attacks for keeping poor HAMAS and the Gazans down for so long. History has been re-written and the narrative has become severely detached from reality.
I don't think support for Hamas was that widespread except in some far left groups and some islamic populations. I think you are exaggerating.
DeleteAfter 9/11 there were a few people who cheering (although not the people in NJ like Trump claims) just like there were some idiots who backed Hamas from the start, but would you try to tell me that all the protests on college campuses would have mushroomed without the disproportionate civilian casualties? The current death toll is over 40 K and I wouldn't be shocked if it ends up being a literal decimation (>200K) once the rubble is cleared. Plenty of us condemn BOTH Hamas and Netanyahu for the carnage. Anyone who wants to blame just one side isn't helping.
Delete
ReplyDeleteAfter 9/11 there really was widespread sympathy for the US. Western governments, western societies
It was the first (and only) time that NATO's Article 5 was invoked.
Didn't the expression, "We are all ... now." originate with "We are all Americans now" after 9/11?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/19/us/politics/israel-hezbollah-pager-attacks.html
ReplyDeleteAnd while the target was Hezbollah fighters, the victims were anyone standing around, including children. Lebanese authorities say 11 people died and more than 2,700 were injured in Tuesday’s attack.
To Darrell E's point above, Israel is condemned for an operation's collateral damage in which "11 people were killed". OTOH, so-called liberals and leftists here in the US supported and celebrated HAMAS after the 10/7 operation in which many more were deliberately killed, tortured, or taken hostage.
I'm no fan of Netanyahu, but one must call them how he sees them.
When my daughter was quite young, I used to understand that there were times when, "Daddy is always wrong," no matter what I said. Israel is consistently in much the same situation.
I have my doubts.
DeleteNetanjahu needs hostilities to continue, because very soon after day one of peace, he will be out of office and maybe in jail.
I've never seen a chart or curve considering what 'acceptable collateral damage' has meant since the horrors of unlimited savagery (by the good guys!) during WWII. That ratio of allowable civilian casualties per war mission accomplishment had changed a lot by Vietnam but was still -even by the standards of those days - criminally excessive. Yu can watch the curve change leading into the Iraq Wars, etc. With the ultimate aim that - should western values prevail - it should within some years descend to what we might call surgical SWAT/Police levels as I depicted in EARTH.
ReplyDeleteBy that light, the 'pager caper' was vastly more surgical and modern than, say the gruesomely savage Russian campaign to flatten every Ukrainian city within reach and leave the rest strewn with millions of mines.
It is by that sliding scale of attentiveness to surgical care to minimize civilian losses that Netanyahu is a war criminal, even in light of the gruesomely murderous campaigns of Hamas. Not only in their initial murder romp but the far more significant way that they herd civilian human shields in front of them to fire over their shoulders at Israelis from hospitals. Hoping - and succeeding - to draw return fire that then hurts Israel in world opinion.
Hence Netanyahu is not just ciminal, but deeply stupid.
Daddy is always worng. A familiar song.
ReplyDeleteFor everyone interested in foreign politics and election circuses, Austria is always good for some surprises.
ReplyDeleteAndreas Babler (social democrat) just unrolled a six foot long list of convicted FPÖ politicians (the Nazis) during a TV Show.
https://x.com/DieRaffa/status/1837217108570034629
Maybe that would be something for the vice presidential debate, If it still happens.Would bei longer, though.
@duncan cairnross: somewhere above you differentiated between "Words" and "Actions".
ReplyDeleteOver here, we do not. At least, in theory. For example, denying the Holocaust, wielding swastikas and and using hatte speech and Nazi terminology are criminal acts. Though I have to admit that persecution is slow, offenders are given multiple chances, and in some areas, authorities are even slower and blinder than elsewhere (particularly in the East).
Words and displaying symbols are actions.
Because those words may make actions possible that should be unthinkable. They
lead to division, othering, progromes and genocides.
Der Oger
ReplyDeleteI agree "words" also need to be looked at - but a "bad word" is not anywhere near as important as "bad actions"
They are both bad - but its like comparing shop lifters to serial killers
Duncan,
ReplyDeleteAn awful lot of crimes against humanity have occurred, and will occur, because someone in perceived authority gave approval to people who would not otherwise have committed those crimes. I prefer the German approach to other countries, who gave lip service to 'never again' but tolerate 'we did nothing wrong'.
It disturbs me that whatever lessons humanity gained from the horrific tragedy that was WW I did not prevent WWII, and the generations traumatized by WWII are dying off Even in Germany the neo-Nazis are gaining strength, as Oger has been pointing out, but would they be stronger if their sentiments were protected free speech?
Pappenheimer
P.S. for a guy blamed for much of the world's issues, Marx seems to be have done a lot just by sitting at a desk in the British Library.
Let's not forget that lies posted on Twitter about the identity of a disturbed 17 year old boy who murdered 3 little girls in the UK helped fuel some appalling riots targeting Muslims. Do I hold Musk responsible for the fact that someone posted a lie? No. Do I hold him responsible for firing moderators so that the lie remained posted long after people were reporting it? Yes, yes I do. Any inadequately moderated online forum will devolve into 4chan. If your platform has the reach of a Twitter, of a FaceBook, you absolutely do have a responsibility to police it.
DeleteTo change the topic: South Australian firm develops miniature (potentially portable) X-ray tube
ReplyDeleteonward
ReplyDeleteonward