Saturday, August 26, 2023

Putin's real plan

 "The ideology of Putinism is quite eclectic; in it, respect for the Soviet lies side by side with feudal ethics, Lenin sharing a bed with Tsarist Russia and Russian Orthodox Christianity."

 -- Vladimir Sorokin, author of Day of the Oprichnikjust after the beginning of the Russo-Ukraine War.


Things are going badly for poor Vlad Putin. What had been viewed by all as the "second greatest armed force in the world" is now the second-best in Ukraine

Moreover, Putin's nightmare -- (he rants about the 1917 Soldier's Rebellion endlessly) -- is that fed-up RF troops might leave their death-trap trenches and turn toward Moscow, leaving his remaining loyal forces to be the 'second best army in Russia.' 

That fear was presaged eerily when Yevgeny Prigozhin's Wagner Group swiftly took Rostov and sped toward the Kremlin, halted only by fancy negotiations and Putin vowing total forgiveness. Vows that only a special kind of stupidity would believe, as we've seen in Prigozhin's recent demise.

Meanwhile, we now see almost daily events inside Russian territory that reveal both homegrown resistance and savvy Ukrainian special ops, increasingly operating with virtual impunity, adding one more factor to VP's dread of battlefield reversals and plummeting RF troop morale.

Let me be clear. I have great respect for Russian people and culture. My grandfather fought at the Battle of Mukden and carried a spear in the Moscow Opera. We were beautifully hosted (with nifty awards) by the Russian national science fiction convention, some years back. Indeed, my story "The Logs" is a tribute to that folk's legendary endurance in the face of oppression, gulags and all kinds of suffering. One fond hope -  by millions of us on the outside - is that Russia will at last arrive upon an era of sanity, freedom, prosperity and peace...

...after departing Ukraine. And taking all the landmines with them.


         == But one thing has to stop ==

Still, I must tell you that there can be no forgiving the clade of 5000 'ex' commissars, who spent their formative years chanting Leninist catechisms five times daily, while plotting against America and the West from the bowels of the KGB... 

...who then, starting in 1991, simply switched a few symbols - from hammer-sickles to orthodox crosses. They re-labeled the KGB and then resumed exactly the same plotting, the same methods, with the same agents, from the same buildings...

... with just one palpable difference. From 1917 to 1991, their top aim had been to lure-in the U.S. left... and they failed utterly. (The most anti-communist force in American life was always the AFL-CIO; wager me on that!) 

But by flipping a few symbols - erecting statues to the monstrous Nicholas II, for example - and applying copious blackmail, those 'former' commissars, now-mafiosi, proceeded rapidly to take over almost the entire American right.

The same guys, plotting the same plots, with the same agents and methods, from the same buildings... are suddenly the darlings of Fox and Trump and MAGA and the world plutocrat oligarchy. Go figure.

Oh, it didn't happen without help. Horrendously corrupt and treasonous help! See below for several reasons why our own oligarchs have every motive to do whatever Vlad asks.

Yet, it depresses me that there's no concerted effort to reach out to at least some U.S. conservatives with this irony. That the 'ex' commissars they are now fox-talked into loving are the very same guys whom they used to fear and loathe! Now with a little slapped-on paint. Hey, it's even still red!


    == If only our own leaders heeded advice ==

Old Vlad's mind-set might be best understood by reading Vladimir Sorokin's short sci fi dystopia novel Day of the Oprichnik. A warning to us that almost everyone in the West ignores, even after the Ukraine invasion... but that has become the Grand Plan manual for a would-be czar.

Just after Putin launched his supposedly 'three day special military operation,' Sorokin wrote a volcanically erudite denunciation in the Guardian

"If you listen to Putin’s speech announcing a “special operation”, America and NATO are mentioned more than Ukraine. Let us also recall his recent “ultimatum” to NATO. As such, his goal isn’t Ukraine, but western civilization, the hatred for which he lapped up in the black milk he drank from the KGB’s teat.

"Who’s to blame? Us. Russians. And we’ll now have to bear this guilt until Putin’s regime collapses. For it surely will collapse and the attack on a free Ukraine is the beginning of the end."

Alas, our own leaders, while they are mostly the Good Guys now, are also dunces at the use of eviscerating polemic. (One reason that I wrote Polemical Judo, an apparently futile effort to offer fresh tactics.) There are so many polemics that might penetrate effectively, even through Putin's media-controlling Irony Curtain. 

Alas, originality is not in the playing hand of the goodguys, nowadays.

That lack could wind up ruining us all.

And hence, let me conclude by reiterating a few important points.


       == Understand the devil that you face ==

The younger Putin at least saw himself as part of a movement to end millennia of wretched rule by kings and feudal lords. Lenin and Stalin were not just utterly mistaken, but ruthlessly rationalized so many horrors. Still, at least the younger Putin envisioned himself as part of some kind of utopian project. 

His later version aims only to become the futurist Ivan-the-Terrible portrayed in Sorokin's novel. And, like so many other boringly banal/predictable tyrants, he rationalizes that we, in the Enlightenment Experiment, haven't the guts to stand up for humanity's future. 

Oh, there's a lot more going on in Putin's skull than fear of "color revolutions" for democracy! You can see signs everywhere - in the absurd-kitsch Romanov escutcheons always visible behind him. In his imperial airs and russo-mysticism. And especially in his repeated rants about the 'calamity of 1917,' the last time that fed-up Russian soldiers rebelled and marched on Moscow.  

I mentioned his fetish of erecting statues all over Russia to Czars like Nicholas II, the last bearer of such symbols and an implied godly Right to Rule. The same microcephalic/brutal Nicholas II who, with his idiot Kaiser cousin, plunged a till-then hopeful 20th Century into unprecedented pits of utter hell.

I find it stunning that no one out there deems any of that interesting, let-alone fantastically-telling! That a formerly fervent communist who called the collapse of the USSR "history's greatest tragedy" would then - along with 500 or so fellow "ex" commissars - use czarist imagery and a relabeled-but-unaltered KGB (and Cheney-clan backing) to rebuild the Boyar Pyramid and romanticize the very forces of crazed, blood-aristocratism that his former idols executed, a century ago. 

And all that without anyone even murmuring the word "hypocrite!"

The fact that no one in the west calls this out... not even trying to use any of it to slap-awake those few MAGAs who retain some residual neural activity... is an astonishing case of historical blindness by our side's punditry caste. And polemical insipidity.

164 comments:

Paradoctor said...

People don't accuse tyrants of hypocrisy for about the same reason that they don't accuse prostitutes of promiscuity. Those aren't accusations: they're job descriptions.

Lorraine said...

In Day of the Opritchnik, His Majesty is portrayed as quite the "cuck."

scidata said...

I recently saw a pic of Queen Victoria with her grandson, the future Kaiser, on her knee. What a mad house monarchies are.

Dirtnapninja said...

Plummeting troop morale? The Russians are adding 20,000 *volunteers* a month to their military.

The USA, having decided its former recruit base is too deplorable cant even fill its peacetime recruiting quotas.

And the Ukrainians have literal press gangs roaming the streets.

They have suffered 10's of thousands of casualties in this stupid counteroffensive where they have learned the hard way that the USA and NATO honestly havent a clue about the modern realities of war, pushing Ukraine over and over again to try and replicate desert storm against an enemy with drones, spy satellites, glide bombs, rapidly scatterable mines and precision guided munitions.

Carolyn Meinel said...

Thank you, David. I believe the reality you just explained so well is being understood by increasing numbers of people around the world.

Alan Brooks said...

Dirtnapninja is back,
tanned, rested, and ready, after a summer in St. Petersburg.

Unknown said...

"...saw a pic of Queen Victoria with her grandson, the future Kaiser, on her knee."

It's not just the royal families - iirc, Adm. Canaris, head of the Abwehr during much of WWII, had a mistress whose sister was married to the head of MI5. Europe's inner borders have generally been more porous than we Amis envision, particularly among the upper classes.

Pappenheimer

P.S. Was originally skeptical of Prigozhin's death, and he still might have pulled off a successful retirement sub rosa, but it seems likely that he is now an ex-parrot. Minus the beautiful plumage.

Alfred Differ said...

Paradoctor, (from last thread)

For what value of N are all humans Nth cousins?

Heh. It's at least six because 23-n-me informs me that I have scads of cousins at that level. I look at the genomic overlap for some of them occasionally and barely find any among the tracked markers.

On a serious note, though, I hold this opinion based on two beliefs.

1. Y-Chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve were alive back when the human population could be counted as a few million even if you counted the other hominids. If you combine that with the migrations we think occurred afterward, my most distant (in terms of N) cousins are in Africa (their lineages never left), while everyone who did leave has a lower N value.

2. If a group of humans (A) invents an idea (X), pretty much every other group of humans (~A) can learn it. That suggests the minds we host inside our complex brains are fundamentally similar. This fact would have been hotly debated through history, but I'm solidly in the camp that we are TOO similar for any of those crap ideas to be supported by unbiased science.

———

I say tut-tut!

Ha! I prefer a world of mutts because hybrids are some of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

Sure… there are some monsters, but they won't reproduce often enough to win the long game. There are still Nazi's in the world, but look at how they are doing in all the dogfights.

—————

Anyone else arguing for 'educated women' as an explanation,

For the last couple of centuries, wealth has been piling up faster than women could reproduce babies to consume it. In the last century, the rate at which wealth has been piling up accelerated leaving mountains of capital hanging around. In a world where relative incomes have all grown a lot and capital is accumulating, it doesn't cost as much to do things that were once considered "too expensive" or "too idealistic".

Among the ideas currently being funded… because why the hell not… is educating women, minorities, and pretty much everyone. We are also choosing to feed most everyone… because why the hell not… we are massively wealthy compared to our ancestors of several generations ago.

There is an argument for lower fertility rates being connected to the higher costs of having children, but that doesn't square with the rate at which our communities are becoming wealthy. We are f@#$ing rich compared to our typical ancestor of a thousand years ago! SO RICH that we are plowing the capital into people's brains as human capital and sending them out into the markets to make even MORE money.

Educated women DO need time to become educated, so production of babies gets in the way. At least a bit. That's backward, though, from saying educated women choose to have fewer babies. It's not the education causing it. They are choosing… because they can. We've been busy (all of us) liberating them. And ourselves.

Alfred Differ said...

scidata (from last thread)

Is there some immunity…

The short answer is No and Larry already covered that. I want to add one quibble, though.

Presidents don't have Rights.*
The people elected as President do.

Presidents have Powers described in the Constitution and through case law.
The people elected as President have Powers Reserved To The People. (Check out amendment #9.)

In general, a President exercising a power not granted to the office is vulnerable to impeachment and removal if in office and criminal and civil penalties once out of office.

———

In the Georgia cases, our President has no authority to determine outcomes. Georgia HAS state-level elected officials with those responsibilities. At a minimum, the President was usurping power, but Georgia state law might not address that option well. (It would have applied to Lincoln, right?) What they've charged is pretty close, though. RICO and Fraud cover the usurpation.

———

* Many Americans are fast and loose with the distinction between Rights and Powers. The Courts generally aren't. You'll see this play out in the coming weeks because Trump doesn't currently have Presidential Powers.

Paradoctor said...

Differ:
Mitochondrial Eve is estimated at 155,000 years ago. Estimating 20 years per generation gives 7750 generations. Round that up to 8000, and that'll do for N. We are all at most 8000th cousins.

If we date from the population bottleneck of the Toba supervolcano eruption: that was 74,000 years ago, or about 3700 generations. Round up to 4000, and that'll do even better. We are all at most 4000th cousins.

duncan cairncross said...

Paradoctor

I'm not at all sure I have seen any actual data about
"the population bottleneck of the Toba supervolcano eruption"

Hominids had spread over most of the world by then

Do you have any links to any data?

reason said...

I don't know that calling out "Hypocrite" will work with our enemies - they seem to enjoy being hypocrites. The GOP is the party of hypocrisy. It is who they are. You can't be ruthless violent "Christians" without being hypocrites.

Larry Hart said...

reason:

I don't know that calling out "Hypocrite" will work with our enemies - they seem to enjoy being hypocrites. The GOP is the party of hypocrisy.


You are correct that shaming the hypocrites won't stop them from doing what they do. The point is to peel off secondary supporters by revealing just who it is they are supporting.

Separate from that, calling out hypocrisy is itself an act of resistance. It is a way of asserting that two plus to is in fact four, not whatever the party says it is. Or maybe a way of saying, "Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining."

scidata said...

"plunged a till-then hopeful 20th Century into unprecedented pits of utter hell"

Solvay Conference to Ypres in just over three years.
Belgian eyes are wistful to this day.

Larry Hart said...

I said:

... "Don't piss on me and tell me it's raining."


Maybe it's just me, or maybe this is one of those "There are two kinds of people in the world..." things. I find it greatly insulting to being treated as a mark by a con man. I realize that many rank and file Republicans are willing participants in the con that the party is pulling. I'm not one of those.

Alan Brooks said...

Didn’t know potassium argon dating is so precise. The Toba eruption:
73,880 yrs ago, plus or minus 320.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

I find it stunning that no one out there deems any of that interesting, let-alone fantastically-telling! That a formerly fervent communist who called the collapse of the USSR "history's greatest tragedy" would then - along with 500 or so fellow "ex" commissars - use czarist imagery and a relabeled-but-unaltered KGB (and Cheney-clan backing) to rebuild the Boyar Pyramid and romanticize the very forces of crazed, blood-aristocratism that his former idols executed, a century ago.


I'm not surprised by any of that. Because it seems like the same phenomenon as the GQP segueing from decades of defending "democracy" against the communist menace to advocating authoritarian rule as superior to democracy. They are for whatever ostensible principle leads to them gaining or holding power. Same with Putin.


The fact that no one in the west calls this out... not even trying to use any of it to slap-awake those few MAGAs who retain some residual neural activity... is an astonishing case of historical blindness by our side's punditry caste. And polemical insipidity.


I don't see there being a failure to point this out. I think the pundits are simply tempered by the knowledge that, as I said above, none of this is surprising. MAGATs themselves wouldn't see any hypocrisy in opposing a godless regime favoring labor over capital, but supporting a Christian warrior favoring white supremacy and rigid gender roles over wokeness.

Paradoctor said...

In 2000 the parties switched colors. Now the D's are the Blues, and the R's are the Reds. I wasn't consulted on this, but in retrospect it makes sense. So don't hesitate to call the Republicans "Reds".

In a related move, I recommend that the Reds and the Blues trade Abraham Lincoln and Andrew Jackson. Let the Reds call Jackson theirs, and the Blues claim Lincoln. A win-win.

I also recommend that we swap comparing people to Hitler to comparing them to Stalin or Mao. Much the same crimes, just a bit fresher.

David Brin said...

The ‘wealth piling up faster than babies’ effect would be more effective if more smoothly distributed, But some factors take TIME, like infrastructure and spreading education to those babies.

The ‘wealth piling up faster than babies’ effect is the biggest reason why THE EXPANSE – a TV series I love – was unrealistic (beside the fact that Ceres has plenty of water.) No way with asteroid mining & robotics that there’d be that much poverty.


--- The most consistently gorgeous hybrids I’be seen ate Dutch-Indonesian women… OMG


While Biden-Pelosi accomplished a lot, I am pissed over what they didn’t do. There are adjustments to rules that’d protect us from Trumps and from Congress maniacs. I’ve mentioned giving every member one subpoena. And trashing the Office of Legal Counsel ruling that Presidents can’t be sued/prosecuted, changing it to “SLOW legal process.” Where a president may only be asked to spend 10 hrs/week on legal matters/. At least justice would move.

Alfred Differ said...

Paradoctor,

4000 is an upper bound. Work back along your ancestral tree and you'll find some of your cousins met and had offspring that led to you. That's enough to reset N along that branch.

It wasn't until about 1824 that there were a billion people in the world, so a simple tree graph can't work as our ancestral trees. There would be a billion nodes at the far edge in only 30 generations while our genetic Adam and Eve go much farther back.

One generation along the maternal line averages 23.2 years, so 30 generations ago was 1327 AD. The estimated human population back then was between 360 and 432 million. Black Plague wiped out many of their offspring in the next century.

Cousins have been reproducing… especially in communities that were somewhat isolated.

———

Our genetic Adam and Eve are as far back as they are because some of our lines didn't leave Africa. Ever. To include them we have to set N very high unless we are one of them. Most of us aren't. If someone in your line did leave you have billions of relatively close cousins, but not so close that it's worth fretting about inbreeding.

Alfred Differ said...

would be more effective if more smoothly distributed

I agree, but I'm leery of dictating outcomes. Instead, I'll side with you on flat, fair, open markets. That will work with sufficient time… and we are already well underway.

…most consistently gorgeous hybrids I’ve seen are Dutch-Indonesian women…

Heh. Yep.

The concept extends to mental hybrids too. Immigrants arriving here bring their old culture, but their kids wind up learning part of ours. It's quite a challenge for them to hybridize the norms, but those who do can be quite astonishing to those of us who are at least partially described as sapiosexual.

Alfred Differ said...

Duncan,

I've seen papers discussing a Toba bottleneck for populations outside Africa. They are from many years ago so it is possible the science has moved on and around them, but I do remember the hypothesis. It went like this…

Modern Humans left Africa by sea along the southern coast of Arabia and then over to the subcontinent. They lived there for some time without leaping to Australia because(?) sea levels/weather or whatever weren't conducive. At some point Toba goes kaboom and kills them off.

After Toba another group leaves Africa by sea and is the lineage that makes it to Australia.


The primary point about this hypothesis is that SOME of the first wave might have survived, but we'd find essentially no evidence (yet) because they lived along a coast that got submerged with the ice melt. If none of them survived into our modern genome, we might not realize it happened at all.

So, this hypothesis is mostly about a possibility that COULD have occurred. We'd need lots and lots of DNA from a variety of people to check for a tiny minority of African lines diverging from other African lines before Toba and them compare them to those from after.


My suspicion is the science has moved on. We HAVE lots of DNA samples from people now. Lots! Toba would have killed a lot of people along southern Asia, but whether it created a bottleneck would depend on whether other migration route through the Levant got used and on how many of them moved into Central Asia. Both of those options lead to similar outcomes, but one involves travel through high mountains during an Ice Age.

Larry Hart said...

Alfred Differ:

We are f@#$ing rich compared to our typical ancestor of a thousand years ago! SO RICH that we are plowing the capital into people's brains as human capital and sending them out into the markets to make even MORE money.


You have a ...compelling way of modeling humanity. Almost psychohistorical. I know you disdain the idea that humanity can be modeled as in Asimov's books, but certain aspects such as how wealth production leads to capital accumulation which in turn reinforces the wealth production might be modelable without predicting specific events--especially over a galactic civilization of quintillions.

I'd love to see a conversation on economics between you and Paul Krugman.

scidata said...

FWIW I submit that it's not crucial to model trillions of humans, millions should be adequate. What is crucial is to model feedback and recursion accurately. Not a simple task, especially for big A.I. devs who see everything in terms of vast GPU farms that do training instead of thinking.

In the 1990s, I watched ABC's "This Week", always hoping to see George Will and Paul Krugman go at it over psychohistory (they're both Asimov fans).

David Brin said...

--- The most consistently gorgeous hybrids I’ve seen ARE Dutch-Indonesian women… OMG "ate" happened because 't' is next to 'r'. I blame QWERTY.

David Brin said...

Alred avg MALE generation times are generaly longer. My grandfather fught in the Russo Japan war of 1905... we are pretty sure which side he was on.Could help explain why we seem more apelike.

Keith D. Halperin said...

@ Various: re: hypocrisy/hypocrites: DISCLAIMER: I’m not a student Russian history, nor an expert in human behavior. That being said, the Russian “olies” seem to me to display perfectly rational behavior- for centuries I believe Russians (and their subject peoples) “knew” that at any time- there could be someone ready to “do” them, “get” them, or “off” them- for any or no reason in particular, so it makes extreme sense to “kiss the hand you cannot sever”. I suspect there were very few “true believers” among the olies during end-Soviet times, so it made sense to watch which way the wind blew and to follow it accordingly. I believe that if the West were able to reach out to the most powerful olies and guarantee/increase their wealth and safety, they would quickly become as pro-West as could be wanted, remembering that “loyalty = cash-flow”. It’s hard-core true believers on any side you have to worry about- they’re difficult to convince, and often the more you try- the more they dig in their heels, e.g., many typical MAGA voters.
.................................................................

@Alfred (previous thread) re: “people who REALLY believe in the truth they know will put their money up” and the people who are REALLY smart will put up other people’s money in such a way is that if it’s profitable: everyone makes money, and if not” they don’t lose much, if anything. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2014/07/11/the-fastest-growing-part-of-finance-is-investing-other-peoples-money/
@Various (previous thread); re: population:
Until the Industrial revolution, human population grew very slowly: ~1300 years to double from 0 CE- 1300 CE.

Also:
Very long range global population scenarios to 2300 and the implications of sustained low fertility
Stuart Basten, Wolfgang Lutz, Sergei Scherbov, © 2013 Stuart Basten, Wolfgang Lutz, & Sergei Scherbov
Demographic Research: Volume 28, Article 39
http://www.demographic-research.org 1155
Conclusions:
“We suggest the dominant two-child norm may not necessarily be the end point of transition as sizeable human populations exist where the voluntarily chosen ideal family size is heavily concentrated on just one child per woman with TFRs as low as 0.6-0.8. We have demonstrated the significant long term implications of possible sustained low fertility levels by producing the first global population projections into the twenty second and twenty-third centuries based on a broader range of alternative fertility levels. A global move to the fertility levels seen in a number of Chinese urban centres (around 0.75) over the coming 40 years would result in a peaking of global population before 2050 and a decline to only 3.6 billion in 2100 and 150 million people by 2200. But even the more realistic range of long term fertility levels of 1.5-1.75 (higher than it has been in much of Europe for the past decades) would lead to declines in global population size of 2.6-5.6 billion by 2200 and even 0.9-3.2 billion by 2300. Therefore, even under conditions of further substantial increases in life expectancy, world population size would decline significantly if the world, in the longer run, followed the examples of Europe and East Asia.

Keith D. Halperin said...

Continued...

Based on Global Footprint’s information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_ecological_footprint), our world’s 2016 bio capacity is 12.2G ha (global hectares). Currently, nations can have a very high 0.9 Human Development Index (HDI, consistent with Japan, Southern Europe) score at an ecological footprint of ~4 ha (about half the U.S’s), leading to a prosperous sustainable population of ~3 G at current global biocapacity.
This is consistent with a sustainable population based on ~4kWe/person for a similar HDI (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MFJi-l8ckts/WcPOeP8RtuI/AAAAAAAAiBg/du1Zdt3G9vAi1y4rbCyVLBuGBKsin4hxACEwYBhgL/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2017-09-21%2Bat%2B8.05.50%2BPM.png) and *13.2 TWe energy consumption in 2019 (Final consumption – Key World Energy Statistics 2021 – Analysis - IEA)

MY CONCLUSION:
It’s possible and highly desirable to create a sustainable and prosperous human population of 2-4G people over the next 200 years WITHOUT G-deaths.

* We’ll need to TRIPLE this if we want to provide 4kWe/person for the likely peak world population of ~10G.

Robert said...

The most consistently gorgeous hybrids I’ve seen ARE Dutch-Indonesian women

You've clearly never met my nieces! ;-)

Compassionate, smart, gorgeous, courageous… I'm a lucky chap.

Grandnieces look to be growing up the same, too.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

OMG "ate" happened because 't' is next to 'r'.


Truth is, the eye tends to see what it expects to see. I hadn't even noticed until you said something.

Lorraine said...

Surely the most beautiful mixed parentage is Peruvian and Vietnamese.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin (redux) in the main post:

trying to use any of it to slap-awake those few MAGAs who retain some residual neural activity...


In the good old days, circa 1974, there were lines that good Americans of either party would not cross. Nixon losing support of congressional Republicans is a good example. John Edwards was an example on the Democratic side. Clinton was reviled by the right in part because he didn't slink away in shame after the Lewinski scandal broke the way he was "supposed to".

In 2016, the Republican Party was "supposed to" refuse to back a clown like Trump, and therefore Hillary was a shoo-in for the presidency. That was when the GQP went through denial/anger/bargaining/acceptance and realized that they had a stark choice--a Republican president to appoint Federalist Society judges and sign Republican legislation, or a feminist, "socialist" whom they've detested for thirty years. One by one, they decided that there was no line they would not cross to have the former instead of the latter. There was no line Trump could cross that would prevent them from choosing him over Hillary or make them ashamed of having done so, or make them sorry they did so. Character means nothing to them. Only results are important.

Unknown said...

Lorraine, Dr. Brin -

My vote is Anglo-Indian, but I'm hesitant to trumpet my opinion as there is a lot of not so good history involved in that genetic mix.

Then again, it might have just been the saris.

Pappenheimer

P.S. I don't think the the GQP is going to lean back when Trumps becomes a null factor. They want crazy, lib-owning racist and there will always be someone ready to assume the mantle and "tell it like it is", whether it's actually like that or not; and the GOP can't win without the GQP.

Larry Hart said...

Who are you gonna believe? Dirtnap, or your lying eyes?

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/08/26/isw-russian-troops-fight-near-robotyne-without-rotation-or-reinforcement/

...
Many of the Russian servicemen fighting near Robotyne have been on the frontline since the start of the Ukrainian counteroffensive, and these units struggle with a shortage of frontline reinforcements, ISW said, citing the Russian milblogger.

“This claim supports ISW’s assessment that Russian forces fighting in the western Zaporizhzhia Oblast area have been defending against Ukrainian attacks since the start of the counteroffensive without rotation or significant reinforcement,” the Institute concluded.

Larry Hart said...

Pappenheimer:

They want crazy, lib-owning racist and there will always be someone ready to assume the mantle and "tell it like it is",


True, but there aren't so many replacements who can inspire an army of thousands of Brownshirts and millions of willing cult members.

The Mule's government continued briefly after his death too, but the Foundation was able to break away and recover.

David Brin said...

Almost none of the new armored brigades in the AFU have been sent into battle yet, because sending therm into minefields would be crazy. And even Russian anti-air missiles are too good to fly in air support against.Right now we have 80% an ongoing artillery duel. When counter battery fire and destroyed logistics render RF artilleryusefless, then the mine clearing can hit full speed, and then... tanks.

Oger said...

Some fun homework for you, Dr. Brin (and others):
1) Look up the House of Oldenburg, including their family ties to different royal houses in Europe.
2) Research their current most prominent members, what their political positions are and which major European City they visited to pay hommage to an extinct branch of the house and signaled that they would Like to take the throne again.

Enjoy yourself!

David Brin said...

cheap cardboard drones in Ukraine
https://cdrsalamander.substack.com/p/the-spanish-civil-war-in-ukraine
Where they are perfect is multiple back and forth resupply to isolated outposts. But get enough of them and they can swarm air defenses.

Alfred Differ said...

David,

…MALE generation times are generally longer…

Agreed. Right near 30 years.

My goal was to argue for a reduction in N for how distant our most distant cousins are. Every distant cousin reproducing with another resets N for their descendants, so I picked the maternal lines in the graph because they'll have more frequent nodes. Add paternal nodes and you get the same argument just a little slower.


QWERTY

I was guessing you were responding from your phone. QWERTY on a tiny touch screen is a recipe for embarrassment. 8)


Larry,

Almost psychohistorical.

I'm paraphrasing McCloskey when I do that. Mostly. Toss in a bit of the community response to Piketty and that is the other sizable piece.

The problem with every prediction model in economics is they assume money doesn't actually talk to other money to change a course of action. The dollars in your wallet obviously can't do that, but the capital in your head most certainly can.

———

You don't have to backup far in history to find a time when it really made no sense to educate the peasants. There wasn't enough wealth in the world. Even if our feudal masters were angelic, there wasn't enough to make the investment make sense to the people involved.

For less than angelic masters, they had to deal with their neighboring prince going to war to take their lands and thus the rents that would have bought those educations. Teaching and training peasants for war (Welsh and English longbows, etc) made some sense, but logic, rhetoric, and the other subjects were irrelevant.

Yet… given a chance… some parents educate their children. Given a bit of surplus income (wealth's raw stock) they do it anyway. Social betterment attempts? Probably, but it doesn't matter. They prove the point Hayek typically drove at and McCloskey re-enforced. Given a chance to use our property for what each of us believes is in our best interests… we do. We might as individuals be proven wrong over time, but in that variety we explore the solution space of outcomes. Collectively, we search all the possibilities. THAT'S how we tripped across the Enlightenment.


As long as we don't get in the way of ourselves, this same method is our best chance of getting out of every seemingly intractable problem we face. We've proven its effectiveness.

Alan Brooks said...

Winning the war, to me, means inflicting sufficient casualties on Russia that it can’t invade another country. How can Ukraine Win-win, with China backing Russia?

Larry Hart said...

Alan Brooks:

How can Ukraine Win-win, with China backing Russia?


NATO and the EU are backing Ukraine. And China has its own problems, including the fact that Ukraine use to be its biggest food supplier.

Lorraine said...

Interesting article dropped on TPM today, The Rise of the Global Oligarchs, tl;dr seems to be that mutual blackmail is what props up the whole structure.

Der Oger said...

How can Ukraine Win-win, with China backing Russia?

China may aid Russia, but not to a full extent and by extorting Russia at the same time. Maybe they don't wan#t to really commit themselves on the eve of another war in the pacific.

Other than that:

By inflicting enough casualties and loss of resources that it causes enough repercussions in Russia to weaken the power structure; by regaining their territory; by securing international aid for reconstruction (possibly paid by post-war taxes and tariffs on Russian resources and products, and, very maybe, by reparations), by gaining NATO and EU membership post-war, and by forging a stronger national identity (which might have already happened). Oh, and by getting rid of corrupt oligarchs; Zelenskii has proposed a law that would equal corruption in war times with high treason (up to ten years for the former, 15 to life for the latter).

Alan Brooks said...

What is winning today? In old times, the king would plant a flag in the enemy’s last fortress, and such would the end of that particular war.
But seventy yrs after the Armistice, we still have a division in Korea; and it matters, as dirtbagninja is right about recruitment going down.
I do think Ukraine can take back Crimea, yet the far eastern Ukrainian territories are in Russia’s backyard/frontyard,
Russia will still have agents there. The Chinese can give Russia missiles to lob into eastern Ukraine.
At any rate my standards are low—a slice of bread is preferable to none at all.
If Ukraine can gain Crimea and send Russian troops to the GPS, the Great Pushkin Seminar in the sky, it is goodunov.

Tony Fisk said...

The 82nd is currently deployed striking south of Robotyne. They're the ones with the challenger 2s (all 25), although they've left them home for now.

That number, 25, highlights why tje Abrams are taking a while: they've got to be built.

ISW just published a good thread against US dissatisfaction on Ukraine progress and strategy.

Worth noting that, once the high area around Robotyne is secured, Ukraine artillery is in range of tbe only mainland rail link connecting Zaphorizia/Kherson/Crimea with Russia.

Unknown said...

Alan,

Even in ancient times, most wars weren't fought to the finish. A siege or battle would be won, boundaries would change and somebody would get to claim Kadesh (or Alsace or Silesia, if you want to be more modern), and the winner gets a triumph or a stele. Keeping armies in the field was hella expensive. That's why people like Alexander III of Macedon and Temujin stand out; they dedicated their lives to that sh*t. In a way, the state of ancient war was iirc more inclusive - unless kingdoms actually had a peace treaty between them, raids and minor attacks were the normal state of affairs. Part of that was because of the prevalence of armed "non-state actors" who might be hired by one side or another, but who might be just having a rumble on their own.

Pappenheimer

Unknown said...

For Ukraine, surviving as an independent nation IS winning. In a way, they've already won. Any Russian "victory" at this point, even if, say, Trump wins in 2024 and stops all aid, while managing to stop all European aid, is just levels of Pyrrus-envy.


Pappenheimer

Alfred Differ said...

China benefits from witnessing modern weapons, methods, and training efforts in action. That's worth spending a bit of money supporting one side to prolong things.

Proxy wars are about lots of things far from the surface of obvious motivations.

Dirtnapninja said...

@Brin

"Almost none of the new armored brigades in the AFU have been sent into battle yet, because sending therm into minefields would be crazy. And even Russian anti-air missiles are too good to fly in air support against.Right now we have 80% an ongoing artillery duel. When counter battery fire and destroyed logistics render RF artilleryusefless, then the mine clearing can hit full speed, and then... tanks."

Thats not going to happen.

Here is what is going to happen. The washington paymasters are displeased that their obsolete tactics arent working on a real enemy. Therefore they will order their vassal to do a complete mobilisation of manpower. Every male with pubic hair will be drafted, given a rifle and sent to do what they have referred to as "meat assaults". Large numbers of women will be drafted too.

What is a meat assault? Well, you send in assault units to take a trench. The Russians, as per doctrine, withdraw from CQC. Then you rotate in the conscripts to hold the trench. The old guys and the 15 year olds.

This is deliberate.

Why? The Russians will shell the conscripts, kill most of them, but this renders the trench unusable for the Russians.

Rinse and repeat.

They will draft from the areas most likely to be overrun by the Russians first, then flatten those areas with scorched earth.

Tony Fisk said...

Dirty nappy chappie be projecting. Yes, lad, we did notice how Wagner used its prison battalions.

In my more cynical moments, I do wonder how much the pace of Western arms supplies is governed by the wish to see how this or that toy performs in the theatre.

Alan Brooks said...

“For Ukraine surviving as an independent nation IS winning.”

Yes, and Crimea might be won back. But Crimea is not contiguous with Russia. To hazard a guess, Russia would insist eventually on land in the east to save face—and a DMZ.
Naturally, everyone here knows wars don’t end permanently with a king raising his standard. It’s very common to say that WW1 did not end in 1918—it ended in ‘45.
And everyone here knows that the motivations for proxy wars are very complicated: including officers getting medals, etc.

Alan Brooks said...

...Ukraine can broadcast its Maximum goal: getting all of Ukrainian territory returned;
however letting the world know its Minimum goal—that it would settle for less than Everything—is tipping its hand.
But you all know this.

Alfred Differ said...

Alan,

Some of us argue that WWI didn't end until '91.

I just view it all as a giant European civil war. They were going at each other for centuries.

Alan Brooks said...

Different actors after ‘45–-the old empires broke down. But sure you could consider all of Europe’s wars, from BCE, as being one long war.
You could go so far as to write how all of the wars everywhere in the world have always been One War.

Larry Hart said...

Alfred Differ:

I just view it all as a giant European civil war. They were going at each other for centuries.


I can't find the exact quote at the moment, but Vonnegut's Bluebeard has a flashback conversation to the 1930s in which a veteran explains to the young Rabo Karabekian how Europeans just can't wait for it to become legal for them to kill each other again. He continues with "There, I've just spoiled Europe for you." The speaker's point was that unlike those barbaric Europeans, Americans had no taste for foreign wars. The author's point--in the late 1980s--was how inconceivable such an attitude seemed now.

Alan Brooks:

But sure you could consider all of Europe’s wars, from BCE, as being one long war.


After the conflict in Bosnia ended, I remember pundits noting that Europe was at peace for the first time in some God-knows-how-many years.


You could go so far as to write how all of the wars everywhere in the world have always been One War.


Let's not go nuts.

Lorraine said...

What really spoiled Europe for me was the sudden enhanced visibility of anti-immigration sentiment in Europe in the alt-right era. There were some other contributing factors, like reading blog posts about the intense level of anti-Roma bigotry seemingly throughout Europe. I'm still a left-of-liberal progressive, but the Europe envy part of that is largely evaporated at this point. Seems the America I want to help build has no existing model to copy from and must be built utterly from scratch.

Tony Fisk said...

As David has pointed out, portraying immigrants as threatening invasive hordes out for your jobs and daughters (although seldom your sons), is a great way to rile up the right wing sentiments.

Not just Europe, either. Australia's One Nation got its launch based on the reaction to the Mabo decision (waddya mean, native Australians owned terra incognito!?)

Larry Hart said...

Lorraine:

Seems the America I want to help build has no existing model to copy from and must be built utterly from scratch.


California?

DP said...

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/russia-ukraine-crisis-complicates-american-white-evangelicals-love-putin-n1290442

Why white evangelical Christians are Putin's biggest American fan base

At this year’s Conservative Political Action Conference, which wrapped up over the weekend, Lauren Witzke, a GOP candidate for the Senate in Delaware, said: “Here’s the deal. Russia is a Christian nationalist nation. They’re actually Russian Orthodox. ... I identify more with Putin’s Christian values than I do with Joe Biden.”

This isn’t an uncommon stance among some Republicans and white American evangelicals today, who have previously admired Putin because of the alignment of their beliefs with his about homosexuality, authoritarianism and fealty to former President Donald Trump. Many believe Putin’s nationalism, coupled with their Christian belief, is the way America should be.

But whether or not American evangelicals try to distance themselves from Putin in this current news cycle, they have long gravitated toward the Russian president for his hardline stance against Muslims and, most importantly, his anti-LGBTQ agenda. Putin’s rhetoric about the nation, the family and the church (in this instance, the Russian Orthodox Church), has captivated many and spurred them to embrace similar kinds of political action here in America. Consider all of the anti-gay and anti-transgender laws that are cropping up in states like Texas and Florida. These laws are part of a constellation of family-focused conservative religious ideals also embraced by Putin and other Eastern European leaders who have clung to a hard line against any so-called “anti-family” ideology.
For members of the religious right, alliances with these leaders present a new frontier in their hope to achieve a theocracy in America. According to journalist Sarah Posner, those on the religious right see Eastern European countries that embrace the Orthodox Church and its family values as the way forward. Because of these interactions between Eastern Europe authoritarian leadership and religious and political leadership of the GOP in America, clampdowns in the U.S. on abortion rights, trans children’s rights and gay rights are therefore all coming back full force on the state level. We can’t of course forget that Trump’s consistent and solid support of Putin is also a significant factor.

Robert said...

California?

As a model? Funding prisons more than schools. Agriculture dependent on illegal immigrant labour. Developers stymieing attempts to build sustainably in ways that don't encourage wildfires. Serious water issues. Rural areas (like most in your country) lean strongly MAGA.

It beats Texas, but California has problems too.

Robert said...

These laws are part of a constellation of family-focused conservative religious ideals also embraced by Putin and other Eastern European leaders who have clung to a hard line against any so-called “anti-family” ideology.

Just noting that "anti-family" really means "anti-patriarchal-family", as they use the term. Their definition of "family" is one led by a man with a woman doing the housework and raising the kids who are obedient because they'll get the shit beaten out of them if they disobey.

DP said...

Lorraine - the Euros are already paying Libyan warlords to drown refugees in the Med.

Won't be long before we pay the cartels to do the same to climate refugees in the Sonora.

reason said...

DP - re theocracy - it is however a sham theocracy. That is, the power is invested in the top of the religious hierarchy. All they get is some repressive legislation and a ceremonial role. And they have to put up with a deep corruption of their religious principles.

reason said...

Oops sorry - ... the power is NOT invested in the top of the religious hierarchy.

GMT -5 8032 said...

My wife is a Japanese-European hybrid and she is ineffably beautiful. I've known her since she was 19; we became a couple when she was 37 (I never though that a woman as beautiful as her could be interested in geek like me).

Dirtnapninja said...

@Tony

"Dirty nappy chappie be projecting. Yes, lad, we did notice how Wagner used its prison battalions"

No, Wagner did the opposite. They used the penal battalions to assault positions, then sent in regulars to hold those positions.

What Ukraine is doing, is using its conscripts as artillery bait, to induce the Russians to shell the trench and destroy it. The conscripts get chewed up but the trench is destroyed and the elite assault formations are preserved.

Larry Hart said...

GMT -5 8032:

I never though[t] that a woman as beautiful as her could be interested in geek like me


Dude, you're singing my song.


Larry Hart said...

dirtnapninja:

They used the penal battalions to assault positions, then sent in regulars to hold those positions.


You have a different definition of "hold" than I'm used to.

jim said...

LOL
Still trying to channel the Episiarch??
Still trying to deny reality until it conforms to your imagination?

"What had been viewed by all as the "second greatest armed force in the world" is now the second-best in Ukraine. "

ROTFLMAO
YEP

Sooner or later reality will get past the lies your buddies in the national security state have been spewing.

Paradoctor said...

reason:

The does-God-exist debate has three, not two, positions: theists, atheists, and theocrats. The first says that God is everywhere; the second says that God is nowhere; and the third says that God is some places but not others.

The first two agree that God exists everywhere equally; that is, everywhere or nowhere. I call that position "Equipresence". The third affirms "Varipresence": that God is present in some places but not in others. Equipresence implies that God needs no defense, as there is no border between God and not-God; varipresence implies that there is such a border, which needs constant patrolling by well-armed tax-paid troops controlled by theocrats.

Theocrats tend to believe in holy lands (and all other lands are unholy) and blessed texts (and all other texts are unblessed) and godly people (and all other people are ungodly). But those interiors are infinitely larger than those exteriors. Therefore the gods of theocrats are infinitely smaller than their not-gods. In particular they are atheistic about every other theocrat's gods.

Paradoctor said...

Theocrats try to make religion better, but instead they make politics worse.

Paradoctor said...

Oops, two posts ago, that should be:
<<
... But those interiors are infinitely smaller than those exteriors.
>>

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

Theocrats try to make religion better, but instead they make politics worse.


I'd put it the other way around. They try to make politics "better"--from the point of view of religion--but end up making religion worse by shoehorning it into politics.

Tony Fisk said...

Oh, I see what chappie means. From ISW:

"The #Russian military command continues to expend relatively elite Russian airborne forces by deploying these troops to defend vulnerable positions against #Ukrainian counteroffensives.

Geolocated footage published on August 27 indicates that elements of the Russian 76th Guards Air Assault (VDV) Division have been deployed to reinforce Russian positions near #Robotyne likely from the Kreminna area in Luhansk Oblast." http://isw.pub/UkrWar082823

Paradoctor said...

LH:
I was paraphrasing a rocker, talking about Christian Rock; 'you're trying to make Christianity better, but you're making music worse."

locumranch said...

By identifying Putin as an apostate of both communism & utopianism, our fine host reveals the potential source of his intense hatred for Putin.

And, no, it's probably not either Putin's ruthless nature or his neo-feudalistic leanings that generate such intensity, but the existence of Putin's apostasy, as apostasy is one of the few unforgivable crimes in the eyes of the believer.

Our Dr. Brin makes no bones about this as, first & foremost, he identifies as a utopian who argues for the perfectibility of man. His other forays into equalism & anti-fascism also seem to be quite compatible with communism, especially when he waxes poetic about classism, wealth confiscation & income redistribution.

That said, our host's take on the Ukrainian-Russian Conflict tends to read more like a prayer (and/or invocation) than a recitation of fact, as there is literally no way that Ukraine can triumph over Russia without the unending combined resources of an increasingly reluctant NATO.

Such evidence-free boosterism has become the hallmark of our western leadershit caste in decline, as the west continues to reject observable reality in preference of its faith-based pursuit of what shoulda, oughta & is supposta be.


Best

Paradoctor said...

The position of NATO and the USA in the Ukrainian-Russian conflict is of armorer and paymaster in a proxy war. This is a proven technique for defeating a nuclear power. It is safe, efficient, and relatively cheap. Note the USA in Vietnam, the USSR in Afghanistan, and the USA in Afghanistan. (Graveyard of empires! Will they never learn?)

And yes, Tony Fisk, proxy wars are test-grounds and publicity for the latest death-toys.

David Brin said...

DP I disagree about the order and priority of MAGAs’ reasons to love Putin. The ones you mention are surface rationalizations. They love him because… they are TOLD to by the leaders of their cult, many of them Putin blackmailed… and because it is one more way to drive the long hair smartypants types nuts. ALL the MAGA cultists at the bottom care about is ‘owning’ smart folks.
Robert, your list: “It beats Texas, but California has problems too.” Contains several complete or partial untruths. And omissions - like leading the world into almost every technology and/or policy that might save it.
Oh and where do you think the farm workers come from? Or for? For the jobs. Mostly not Mexicans anymore but still, those workers send home BILLIONS in remittances that support whole villages back home. Ever enter that into consideration? Or that every year democrats pass new rules for farm labor, leading the nation? (Though yeah, it’s still a bummer: what are you asking for, robots?)
If the Almond groves move elsewhere… and avocados… then we’ll have water for a decade.
DP said...
Lorraine – ‘the Euros are already paying Libyan warlords to drown refugees in the Med.”

A great tragedy of our time is that our Post-Vietnam sensibilities and memories of banana republic marine abuses now prevent us from doing a damn thing to save the people of Haiti, Nicaragua, Venezuela etc from their monsters. There are ways to do it without repeating the crimes of Allende and Moussedegh (1950s Iran). And the hell that is Libya is a mess inherited from Italy, so Italy should go in and fix it.


Dirtnap at least makes assertions that can eventually be fact-checked. Not one of his assertions here has ever seemed even remotely plausible… and most are obvious idiocies. But like everyone in his cult, he will never, ever step up with $$$ wager stakes. Also… my info comes from a wide variety of diverse sources that include groups that the neo-feudalists detest… waging all-out war vs ALL fact using professions, from science and teaching, medicine and law and civil service to the heroes of the FBI/Intel/Military officer corps who won the Cold War and the War on terror.

Example, the story that Ukrainians are using peach-fuzz boys as lures for RF artillery??? That is implausible. 1-because Zelensky makes a big deal of the offensive being sparing of AFU manpower and there are NO signs of that happening. And 2- there is no need for such a ‘lure.’ If RF artillerists don’t fire upon mine-clearing teams, the minefields will be cleared and they’ll soon be screwed.
And if they do fire on them, they expose themselves to devastating counter-battery fights that (according to reports) RF artillerists are losing, badly.

But we will see, possibly soon.

OTOH “Jim” is just a troll without even assertions. Just (small) dick-waving.

As for locum, he’s in a trough, alas. There’s no eloquence this time to his insane drool. Every sentence is an outright maniacal delusion. Well… every one I skimmed.

David Brin said...

Paradoc the unseen thing going on in Ukraine is the almost certain presence of THOUSANDS of instrument-carrying observers from US/NATO on one side and China on the other. This is a war of rapidly evolving weapons and doctrines of which NATO has proved not only superior, but also learning heaps. I had been wondering why Putin doesn’t make a special effort to target those observers. Sure they are likely hard to find. But now I squint and see… maybe… the PRC ordered Shoiju to leave observer teams alone. Because what they are learning about modern war is more important than their "ally/"

Paradoctor said...

Why the authoritarian hatred of fact-based professions?

Because reality has a liberal bias, and truth is against them. Therefore they hate truth and reality as such. They are not only anti-semitic; they are also anti-semANtic. They are against words having meanings.

Plato said that the wise have no choice but to become virtuous. If not then they will lose their wisdom. I reply that in return, the virtuous have no choice but to become wise; for if not then they will lose their virtue.

scidata said...

A totem pole that was carved in 1860 and stolen* in 1929 was displayed in a Scottish museum all this time. It is finally being given back to the Nisga'a people it belongs to. These poles are how the Nisg'a record their history.

The Nisga'a might carve a new totem pole to fill the void now left in the Edinburgh gallery, telling the shared history of the Nisga'a and the Scots. So grievance need not be petty and endless.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/28/totem-pole-begins-rematriation-from-edinburgh-to-nisgaa-nation-in-canada

* In fairness, the full story involves some deeper hokery pokery.

David Brin said...

"Because reality has a liberal bias"

Don't confuse the confederate mobs with their plantation lord oligarch masters. The latter wage war vs all fact professions for one reason. power. The existence of a very large, effective, resilient knowledge caste that can confidently verify facts and apply them via neutral rule-of-law is a HUGE obstacle to the re-establishment of wealth and inheritance-based feudalism.

That 'boffin' caste must be humbled and taught its place, lest it grow and grow as ever more brilliant daughters and sons of mere workers or peons get to actually compete on a fair playing field with scions of the rich.

Paradoctor said...

Everyone lies to a crook, so they become fools. That, I think, explains the oligarch clade. Fools lie to themselves, so they become crooks. That, I think, explains the confederate mobs. The crooks and the fools meet in the middle, so you cannot tell which is which. That, I think, explains Trumpism.

Paradoctor said...

About anti-semanticism: once a guy walked up to Gabby Giffords and asked her, "What is government if words have no meaning?" Later he answered his question by shooting her.

Fortunately she survived, and went on to recover her ability to speak by means of music. So by beauty she recovered meaning. Deconstruct _that!_

locumranch said...

From communism to capitalism, intellectualism to anti-intellectualism, elitism to anti-elitism and establishmentarianism to anti-establishmentarianism, it's quite telling how each & every irreconcilable position eventually qualifies as antisemitism:

These are also known as ideas and/or delusions of reference and, in layman's terms, they signify that you are cuckoo for cocoa puffs.


Best

Alfred Differ said...

Larry,

Americans had no taste for foreign wars

I used to believe that when I was a kid. As an adult I saw things a little different. We had no taste for foreign wars… which did not serve our interests.

Most of Europe's wars qualified. They still do… except when there is a risk that someone will run the table from Normandy to Moscow.

1. The first time our nation witnessed that risk involved Napoleon. It made little sense for the US to join any of the coalitions as a fly speck for him to swat. This was especially true since most of them couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

2. The second time involved WWI when Russia collapsed. Britain and France could have sued for peace and given away colony-states as part of a treaty. Some of their holdings were too close to us making the next fight between them all that much closer. We didn't have much choice at that point but to oppose the one nation willing to use subs to sink our merchant vessels.

3. The third time involved WWII and much the same situation. It could easily be arguing that WWII was a continuation of The Great War with a pause for everyone to collect their breath. This time Russia obviously didn't want to fight until Germany had been bloodied a lot. Didn't work out.

4. The fourth time involved the Cold War with Russia/USSR being the ones possibly running the table. From our perspective it's really the same problem no matter who runs that empire. We need northern Europe divided to remain unchallenged. The inhabitants make it pretty easy for us to accomplish that IF they are not fighting each other.

———

I argue that by the time #3 was over, we'd learned that we really couldn't stay out anymore. OUR interests are best served when Europe is not slaughtering its people.

Add on to that lesson the fact that we are actually a nation of barbarians who ARE willing to get violent (for OUR reasons!) and you've got a recipe for empire.

duncan cairncross said...

Alfred
WW2 Started when Germany attacked Poland from the West and Russia attacked Poland from the East
Russia started as an ally of the Nazis!!
It was only when Germany attacked them that they changed sides

Alan Brooks said...

There may’ve been nearly 300,000 Russian casualties. Estimate conceivably 50-100k injured being redeployed at some time in the future.
No matter what happens, c 200,000 will not be available to invade another nation.

Alan Brooks said...

...Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for HIS country
—Patton

Tony Fisk said...

UAF claims are currently 262,000 Russian casualties.
On present trends, it's likely to hit 300,000 by the end of October.*
Josef only gave up on Finland after 400,000.

Bloody waste.

*Ukrainian casualty figures are not released but are not thought to be as high.
Still horrendous.

Darrell E said...

Jens Notroff (don't know him) tweeted, . . . err, X'd, a bon mot that is exceedingly appropriate for our time.

"Conversation
Jens Notroff
@jens2go
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who prevent history from being taught intend to repeat it."

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

Why the authoritarian hatred of fact-based professions?

Because reality has a liberal bias, and truth is against them. Therefore they hate truth and reality as such.


Wasn't that the entire theme of 1984?

Paradoctor said...

LH: Yes.
My head-canon is that in the 1984 world, the three powers will inevitably collapse of their own stupidity and delusions, and then the disputed territories that the three had been fighting over will stage their Renaissance.

Larry Hart said...

Alfred Differ:

"Americans had no taste for foreign wars"

I used to believe that when I was a kid. As an adult I saw things a little different. We had no taste for foreign wars… which did not serve our interests.


I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

First of all, WWII changed everything in this regard, causing us to think of ourselves as the world's policeman. So I don't think examples of conflicts after 1941 work as counterexamples to Vonnegut's character, who was speaking in the 20s or 30s.

Maybe more to the point, though, Americans had always been willing (sometimes reluctantly) to roll up our sleeves and get a necessary job done--"We won't come back 'till it's over over there."--but once the conflict was settled, we'd be done with it. The view that Vonnegut's character was expressing was that Europeans were always looking forward to the next war. That their default condition was war, interrupted by brief respites of peace, whereas America's (pre-WWII) was peace with some necessary interludes of war.

David Brin said...

“Russia started as an ally of the Nazis!!”
And when Moscow issued orders for all Communists to be nice to Hitler, that was the moment when the Communist Party in the US… saps who had been swallowing a lot of the “I have seen the future and it works” prop… went into steep decline and never recovered. OPPENHEIMER refers to this briefly… in fact way TOO briefly. It merited a couple more sentences for context.

-Ukraine-
As I said before: This is a tech-shift war. Air Power utterly dominated in Iraq. It plays a lame support role in Ukraine because even the RF has excellent anti-air missiles. Likewise tanks. Infantry can deal with the vast mine fields but largely with help of superb demining tech.. which is vulnerable (as are infantry) to artillery and drones.

SO the tech of this war is artillery and drones. Neither side can produce the massive volumes of shells, and hence mass bombardments are petering out, down to. a dull (horrific) roar. So what matters is counter-battery war. And from what I have seen, NATO-aided AFU counterbattery tech and tactics are shredding their RF counterparts. In fact, the AFU’s advances are at least 50% to draw in RF batteries to be destroyed.

And yes, that is vaguely (warped) a version of one thing dirtnapper said. I pay attention for the occasional even-slightly pertinent comment, even by dopes. Alas, It has been many months for poor, jibber-frothing locumranch.

But the big deal is drones. This last week (esp yesterday) the AFU revealed tech & tactics that are pounding RF rear bases. My best guess is that they’ll take out some major electrical nexus to warn Russians they might be the ones to freeze, this winter. I posit that NATO may have asked AFU not to target the immensely vulnerable oil industry. For now.

David Brin said...

"Americans had always been willing (sometimes reluctantly) to roll up our sleeves and get a necessary job done"

Alas, a tragedy of our time is that liberal sentiments prevent us from doing what we should, at minimum in Haiti and likely elsewhere... rescusing populations from mafias and monsters.

In part, we don't know how to do that and ensure it's not seen as a repetition of Marines and Gunboats thuggery from other generations.

David Brin said...

Pskov is just 35 or so km from the Lithuanian (NATO border. meaning 1- the drone strikes probably were NATO observed and 2- RF forces will be pulled further back from that border, where Vlad had meant to make saber-rattling sounds.

Alfred Differ said...

Duncan,

Germany and 'Russia' had a geopolitical goal in common before the start of WWII. Poland got carved up between Prussia, Austria, and Russia a few generations earlier, so they were returning to that state without sending an invitation to Austria (anschluss-ed already) this last time.

It's not easy to pay attention to geopolitical objectives in the heat of present moments, but anyone who did would have known that alliance was an in-the-moment convenience. There was no way Germany wasn't going to war with Russia eventually... and no way Russia could sit idle with a strong opponent on their western border. Stalin just made a (huge!) mistake regarding timing.

Alfred Differ said...

Larry,

...causing us to think of ourselves as the world's policeman...

Some of us quickly. Some more of us later.

I think "world's policeman" is actually a euphemism. What we did (not being even remotely humble here) is recognize that the world's empires had been shattered... so they were ours to take. The Soviets disagreed and tried to stop us, but ultimately they failed.

That doesn't mean we came around to being willing to fight in foreign wars. It means we expanded our idea of Manifest Destiny somewhat. All the rest of it is rationalization.

Policeman? Sure. Why not. Wars get in the way of markets.
Aide to former enemies? Sure. They were effectively vassal states by then.

After WWII, the US had achieved all of it's primary geopolitical goals. Only one remained... which was to keep the world politically divided so no one could effectively challenge us at sea.

Russia pushes its borders back in all directions so opponents have to fight all the way and potentially face General Winter on the battlefield. (e.g. Napoleon) We pushed our border (the one to which we can project power) to everyone else's border who has a sea coast, so all that remains is to ensure they don't team up much. Look at what happened to the UK and France during the Suez Crisis for a demonstration of this.

Dirtnapninja said...

@brin

"Paradoc the unseen thing going on in Ukraine is the almost certain presence of THOUSANDS of instrument-carrying observers from US/NATO on one side and China on the other. This is a war of rapidly evolving weapons and doctrines of which NATO has proved not only superior, but also learning heaps. I had been wondering why Putin doesn’t make a special effort to target those observers. Sure they are likely hard to find. But now I squint and see… maybe… the PRC ordered Shoiju to leave observer teams alone. Because what they are learning about modern war is more important than their "ally/""

NATO has NOT proven superior, nor have they adapted as fully as Russia has. NATO is still clinging to the iraq wars, forcing Ukraine to try and replicate its obsolete doctrine in the face of game changing technologies. You yourself still dont fully comprehend the changes..you are still thinking that the mines will be cleared, a break through will happen and the tanks will roll.

No..they wont.

Both sides went into this war with expectations, both sides were wrong. Ukraine is the graveyard of expectations.

The fact is, Russia has fully adapted its ECM, fully embraced integrated ISR and drone warfare and reoriented its military from is old deep operations combined arms approach to the something very different, while NATO is still trying to force Ukraine to wage its brand of mechanised war based on principles from an earlier era.

We saw how well this worked in the opening days of the counteroffensive. They thought Russia was just a bigger Iraq. They were wrong. And all those fancy wunderwaffen were no more effective in their role than the less expensive russian and soviet gear was.

To paraphrase something I read today...Western observers do not seem open to the possibility that the accuracy of modern ranged fires (be it Lancet drones, guided artillery shells, or GMLRS rockets) combined with the density of ISR systems may simply make it impossible to conduct sweeping mobile operations, except in very specific circumstances. When the enemy has the capacity to surveil staging areas, strike rear area infrastructure with cruise missiles and drones, precisely saturate approach lines with artillery fire, and soak the earth in mines, how exactly can it be possible to maneuver?

Thing is, the Ukrainian generals actually understand this much better than their NATO 'advisors' do.

The big arrows will only happen after one side is exhausted..like two boxers jabbing until one side wobbles, then come the haymakers. And Russia has the advantages here.

David Brin said...

In my review of THE SEAPARATION by C Priest, I show how the Brits saved the world by sending a forlorn expedition to help the doomed Greeks in Spring of 41, thus delaying the Nazis striking the USSR for 6 vital weeks.

David Brin said...

If Dirtnapper were a known entity I would demand escrowed wager stakes over each and every one of his raving, counterfactual assertions. As-is, we can only see, perhaps soon.

Alan Brooks said...

Dirtbagger,
Whatever the outcome, Russia won’t be able to invade another nation for a long long time.

Alan Brooks said...

...it comes down to personnel, not so much territory. Everytime a Russian in Ukraine is ‘taken out of the equation’, it takes 17 or 18 years to grow a new one to be molded into cannon fodder. Just say Russia has suffered the loss of 200,000 irreplaceable personnel.
What if the war continues for yrs until a half-million Russian deaths are recorded, plus injured & missing. Not good then; not good in the history books.

duncan cairncross said...

Hi Alan Brooks

Russia already has a shortage of young men and a surplus of young women - their neighbour (China) has a shortage of of young women and a surplus of young men

And the Chinese men are less likely to be alcoholics - and probably better off financially

gregory byshenk said...

Alan Brooks said...
...it comes down to personnel, not so much territory. Everytime a Russian in Ukraine is ‘taken out of the equation’, it takes 17 or 18 years to grow a new one [...]

But of course the same holds for Ukraine. And even granting better training and equipment, the Ukrainian military was (presumably still is, more or less) something less than one-third the size of the Russian military.

Just say Russia has suffered the loss of 200,000 irreplaceable personnel.

I suppose we can "just say" pretty much anything; so far as I know there are no accurate figures on casualties on either side.

What if the war continues for yrs until a half-million Russian deaths are recorded, plus injured & missing. Not good then; not good in the history books

I don't see how this can happen. Even with continued military and economic support at current levels (something that I don't think can be maintained "for years"), the Ukrainian military will also be effectively wiped out by that point (unless we assume some magical casualty figures on the Ukrainian side).

FWIW, I am not saying anything more about the nature of the war here - only that it doesn't make sense to look at the losses on only one side while ignoring those on the other.

Alan Brooks said...

None of us are clairvoyants, we cannot predict anything at all about the war. But, remember: it’s not only about Russia and Ukraine, the nearby states will be a factor. We don’t know what those countries will do.
And to ‘win’ the war (though wars are not won anymore) Ukraine ‘only’ has to survive, even as a rump-Ukraine. For Russia to ‘win’ the war, the spirit of Ukraine has to be crushed by Russia—with merciless Hitlerite scorched-earth harshness.

Tim H. said...

A chilling essay:
https://apnews.com/article/election-2024-conservatives-trump-heritage-857eb794e505f1c6710eb03fd5b58981
The usual suspects have "Drumph!'s" plans made for him if he's reelected.

Alan Brooks said...

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/trump-says-hed-have-no-choice-but-to-lock-up-political-opponents-if-he-wins-in-2024/

Robert said...

Oh and where do you think the farm workers come from? Or for? For the jobs. Mostly not Mexicans anymore but still, those workers send home BILLIONS in remittances that support whole villages back home. Ever enter that into consideration? Or that every year democrats pass new rules for farm labor, leading the nation? (Though yeah, it’s still a bummer: what are you asking for, robots?)

Are those workers legal now? I was under the impression that many aren't, which gives their employers greater power over them. (Or is "undocumented the preferred term?) The list below is typical of what my cursory internet research found.

Approximately 75% of California’s farmworkers are undocumented.
National Labor Relations Laws (NLRA) do not apply to farmworkers.
Farmworkers are exempt from many Fair Labor Standards Act (FSLA) protections, including most minimum wage and hour guarantees, overtime pay, and mandatory breaks for rest and meals.
Most farmworkers are excluded from federal minimum wage laws and other labor protections, including overtime pay for working more than 40 hours per week.
Farmworkers are not protected from retaliation when engaged in labor organizing, according to federal law.
Farmworkers are not entitled to receive attorney fees under the Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act.
Approximately 78% of farmworkers lack a high school diploma or equivalent.
Only 21% have a diploma or GED, and just over 1% have a college degree.
Around 30% of households with farmworker income fall below the poverty line, and 73% earn less than 200% of poverty (a threshold used in many public assistance programs).
The majority of hired farmworkers in California (84%) were born in Mexico.


Source:

https://lacooperativa.org/31-california-farmworker-facts-you-should-know/

Not certain how to square your claim that they are "mostly not Mexicans anymore" with their claim that 84% were born in Mexico. This University of California blog post also concurs that most are Mexican.

https://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/blog/post/?id=2805

Remittances are huge, true. We have the same thing with our migrant workers: they come here to make money for the family back home. Filipinos do the same thing, even when settled in professional jobs. Sending remittances doesn't mean they aren't being exploited, though, and it doesn't excuse that exploitation.

I'm currently involved in policy discussions about food prices in Canada. It's not our farmers and farm workers who are getting rich off record food prices; indeed, their share of the supermarket price has been dropping steadily. Like you, we've seen consolidation in the middlemen in the food chain, such that free market competition isn't really working anymore. (Too few players, something I don't recall Smith addressing in The Wealth of Nations.)

https://www.epi.org/blog/how-much-would-it-cost-consumers-to-give-farmworkers-a-significant-raise-a-40-increase-in-pay-would-cost-just-25-per-household/

Robert said...

The speaker's point was that unlike those barbaric Europeans, Americans had no taste for foreign wars.

The speaker clearly didn't know much history. Quoting from the most-decorated marine general in America:

I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.


https://archive.org/details/WarIsARacket

Larry Hart said...

Robert:

"The speaker's point was that unlike those barbaric Europeans, Americans had no taste for foreign wars."

The speaker clearly didn't know much history. Quoting from the most-decorated marine general in America:


He meant man on the street Americans. Not necessarily the military itself.

Larry Hart said...

Time again for the end of the six consecutive months with less-than-seven letters in their (English) names, and the start of the six consecutive months with seven-or-more letters.

#Sad

locumranch said...

Since I've already specified how antisemitism (and the elimination thereof) appears to be the only unifying point between our host's many irreconcilable political positions, can anyone tell me how provoking a Nato Sino-Russian War will advance this agenda?

In order to defeat this abstract enemy, are progressives really willing to subject the world to nuclear conflagration?

Apparently so, if they are insane enough to insist that Putin, Drumpf & everyone else with whom they disagree are antisemitism personified.


Best

David Brin said...

Robert that was Smedley Butler in the 1930s, and it is very dishonest not to make the date of those passages clear.

As for farm workers, life is very rough and urbanites take too much for granted. And there' always a PILE of next reforms to do and then the next, and we need to win the overall struggle to restore reform as a general movement, across the board, through negotiation in good conscious.

I was not mentioning the labor inspectors they have now, or the bathroom breaks or the medical clinics and water requirements... and the remittances... in order to make light of the continuing problems, but to make clear that progress... while gritty and way too slow ... is part of the picture. A part that you were simply ignoring as part of your (alas typical) one sided fulminating.

There are plenty of places for one sided fulminating. Here we mostly aim for "Yes, though also..."

We do have fulminators. Alas, they are too detached from reality. logic or sanity to contribute anything to the discussion.

Tim H. said...

Loco, I suspect that "Drumph!" is an equal opportunity hater, he certainly seems to find the peasants revolting.

scidata said...

I'm not a shareholder or shill, but AUTODESK is one of the good ones*:
https://www.autodesk.com/customer-stories/bridges-to-prosperity

* along with LLNL for physics, NRAO for astronomy, and ESA for spaceflight. Coincidentally (not), they all have deep FORTH roots.

Paradoctor said...

I recognized Smedley Butler, and I knew the time frame.

The tiger does not change his stripes. Ask the people of Central America for details.

Therefore any attempt to do good in the nation's backyard absolutely deserves Vietnam-syndrome suspicion. Consider it a subset of Suspicion of Authority.

That said, many Central American nations are indeed criminally misgoverned.

Alan Brooks said...

“Are progressives really wishing to subject the world to nuclear conflagration?”

?
If Ukraine were to offer to negotiate at this time, Putin would perceive such as From Weakness.
Don’t know what to make of your comment: is your repeated reference to Jews hinting that we ought to adopt the Christian ‘turn the other cheek’? Give in to force? Perhaps that’s not what you’re saying but... what are you saying?
Perhaps you’re such an evolved being that you can see into the future; can see the Apocalypse coming? You’re so far ahead of us, we can’t quite comprehend you?

Robert said...

Robert that was Smedley Butler in the 1930s, and it is very dishonest not to make the date of those passages clear.

David, the dates for those military interventions were right in the quote. "I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested."

Vonnegut's character was, according to Larry, speaking in the 20s or 30s. So I provided a quote from about that time (and a link to the original source). How is that dishonest? Or was using Butler as a source dishonest?

David Brin said...

Robert's posting the Butler quotation without a time reference remains an act of profound dishonesty.

"The tiger does not change his stripes. Ask the people of Central America for details. "

Sorry, that's utter dishonest bullshit, showing you know nothing whatoever about the Post Vietnam officer corps. You might consider actually actually knowing something before posting here the sort of stuff might get eager, ideology-driven nods, elsewhere.

Given the volcanic levels of suffering in places like Haiti and Syria and Libya and Mali and only slightly less in Nicaragua, Venezuela and Honduras... is our current refusal to do anything pretty much just as culpable a sin as sending in the marines, in the 1920s?

Note that a major reformer just won the Guatemala presidency, after fierce Biden admin pressure for fair elections. A Costa Rica style renaissance there would have effect on the US border. A win-win.

And it is failure to look for a win-win that is culpable on the left, almost 5% as much as the mad right. Yes, that bad!

Consider a possibility. "The US - keenly aware of our blemished history with interventions - will offer LOGISTICAL SUPPORT - Transport, supplies, gear, food, aid - but no landed troops - for an international force to help Haiti get on its feet. A UN peacekeeping force composed of units CHOSEN BY HAITI with close supervision by competing interests."

Many things can go wrong. Some peacekeeping forces have turned into gangs of rapists. But calibrating toward SOMETHING is essential.

David Brin said...

I reiterate. Not giving the date contect for that confession implies it was a recent statement by a recent officer about recent events, a level of dishonesty of volcanic level.

Alan Brooks said...

Would really like to know it is Locum is getting at. I mean, he’s no imbecile.
Is his overall message that social progress is a construct, thus material progress is a cul de sac?

Alan Brooks said...

Would like to know What it is he is getting at.

mcsandberg said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Brin said...

Alan B seriously? His subjective view of reality almost never overlaps with demonstrable objective reality, as modeled by iterative use of facts and consistency. Stringing together words well, there is no 'there' there. I find him fascinatingly like a Chat-GPT model whose training set includes zero fact sites and ONLY toxic-masturbatory sources.

David Brin said...

This vid by one of my favorite history podcasters, reveals something of minor-but-wowzer significance - a till now rather unknown (because it was far-fetched and never likely) 'plot' to make the abdicated and exiled former King Edward (Duke of Windsor) a king again... in Germany! Another dodged bullet out of history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJr7a7275ag

Larry Hart said...

Alan Brooks:

Would like to know What it is he is getting at.


From what I skimmed--and I'm not going to do more than that--any resistance to the bullying of Russia or China is tantamount to us foisting a nuclear holocaust on the world.

Paradoctor said...

Dr. Brin:
<<
Given the volcanic levels of suffering in places like Haiti and Syria and Libya and Mali and only slightly less in Nicaragua, Venezuela and Honduras... is our current refusal to do anything pretty much just as culpable a sin as sending in the marines, in the 1920s?
>>
One of the causes of those volcanic levels of suffering is United States intervention. So this nation has both acted badly, and non-acted badly. This is not unusually wicked, but it is morally mediocre. Great nations are often bad neighbors. For details, ask the Vietnamese and the Polish.

<<
Consider a possibility. "The US - keenly aware of our blemished history with interventions - will offer LOGISTICAL SUPPORT - Transport, supplies, gear, food, aid - but no landed troops - for an international force to help Haiti get on its feet. A UN peacekeeping force composed of units CHOSEN BY HAITI with close supervision by competing interests."
>>
That's not bad. But how independent is that international force? How much can the UN defy the will of the USA? If that is not limited then the mad right will object. If it is, then the Haitians will object.

You propose a system that might work, but the devil is in the details, and one of those devilish details is American politics. "Blemished" is a euphemism.

David Brin said...

Don't forget 'Because Brin and you guys see antisemites at all the political extremes, that means you are paranoid obsessives!"

Um I reiterate WITH AN OBVIOUS INSERTION: Y

es, the FAR left CONTAINS fact-allergic, troglodyte-screeching dogmatists who wage war on science and hate the American tradition of steady, pragmatic reform, and who would impose their prescribed morality on you. AND MANY ARE ANTISEMITIC AND WEIRDLY RACIST

But today’s mad ENTIRE right CONSISTS of fact-allergic, troglodyte-screeching dogmatists who wage war on science and hate the American tradition of steady, pragmatic reform, and who would impose their prescribed morality on you. AND MANY ARE ANTISEMITIC AND VARIOUSLY EXPLICITLY OLD-FASHIONED RACIST

There is all the world’s difference between FAR and ENTIRE. As there is between CONTAINS and CONSISTS.

Larry Hart said...


Because Brin and you guys see antisemites at all the political extremes, that means you are paranoid obsessives!"


Don't forget the Tom Lehrer song:

Well, the Protestants hate the Catholics.
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And everybody hates the Jews.

Tim H. said...

@mcsandberg, absent federal oversight, I don't trust corporate governance. Not that they're particularly evil, more keenly aware of expedience.

Paradoctor said...

As for paranoia: the Jews, the African-Americans, the Russians, and many other groups all suffer from a terrible mental affliction, which I call CJP. It stands for Completely Justified Paranoia.

As for anti-semitism being linked to political extremism, that's a side-effect of an ancient strategy of the Jews: hiding behind the skirts of Madame Justice. That way, anyone who wishes to confront the Jews must either 1) confront them in full view of Madame Justice, and some of the Jews are smart lawyers, or 2) go straight through Madame Justice. But attacking Justice requires attacking Reason. Therefore anti-semanticism; the rejection that words have meanings.

Anti-semanticism serves other bigotries. It too is a terrible mental affliction. At this historical moment, anti-semanticism exists in the left, but commands the right.

Alfred Differ said...

mcsandberg,

Being prepared to take office is kinda the point for a delay between vote counting and inauguration. We used to give incoming Presidents until March 4 due to travel requirements... and March 4 being a kinda special day. Not so anymore and that's a good thing.

Trump really should have been prepared to take over in 2017. He had time and didn't use it wisely likely because he doesn't really know how to be an executive of a large organization. If the nation were foolish enough to vote me into that office I'd probably be almost as bad at the transition for the same reason. There is a REASON we are often better off choosing former Governors.

As for Project 2025's objectives, knock yourself out. However, I don't for a moment believe they want to shrink the Leviathan. They want to shrink certain aspects of it as it exists now... so their chosen one can BE Leviathan.

You should read Hobbes to see how the term is getting misused. We don't have Leviathan. We have Bureaucracy. They aren't the same.

duncan cairncross said...

Alfred
The gap between the election and the new guy taking over is one of the biggest weaknesses in the American System

Here and in the UK the losing PM will have the removal van at his/her residence by lunchtime of the day after the election

That is why the opposition party has its "Shadow Cabinet" - so its ready (almost) to start doing its job

David Brin said...

Iam not a huge fan of all aspects of the UK system. But the Shadow Cabinet is a very good idea.

duncan cairncross said...

I am not a huge fan of all aspects of the UK system.

Neither am I!

IMHO the MMP system we have here in NZ is vastly superior - its like a Mk2 version of the Westminster System

Tony Fisk said...

Immediate transfer of power is also a feature of Australia's... lower house.
The Senate votes are more complex and take several weeks to finalise. New members of the upper house are sworn in at a fixed date.

Larry Hart said...

From a newsletter by former Tribune columnist Eric Zorn:

In January 2018, a White House physician noted that Trump weighed 239 pounds, which, not to body-shame the obviously obese would-be tyrant, seemed implausibly low. But whatever. Had he claimed 250 pounds or so at the Fulton County Jail,that would have seemed like merely a generous fudging of the truth in the service of vanity.

But claiming 215 pounds was a flex. It was Trump saying that the truth simply doesn’t matter, and his supporters don’t care how extravagantly and brazenly he lies.

It also makes me wonder why Fulton County simply asks arrestees for their weight rather than having them step on a bathroom scale. If that information is important enough to list, it’s important enough to get right, wouldn’t you think?

Robert said...

I reiterate. Not giving the date contect for that confession implies it was a recent statement by a recent officer about recent events, a level of dishonesty of volcanic level.

If you're referring to the Butler quote I posted, I assumed that the content, about military interventions over a century ago, was sufficient context. 1914. 1909-1912. 1916. None of us were alive then. True, I didn't say "this is a quote from a 1935 pamphlet" (which date is given on the link I provided). No one here has been posting dates for their references.

I'm not a professional writer, so could you (or someone) please explain to this Bear of Very Little Brain how someone reading a first-person statement about events in 1909-1916 (with the dates given) would assume it was by a recent officer about recent events?

You may feel it's irrelevant to modern geopolitics. I'd disagree, given how WWI still affects British attitudes, but that's a separate argument to American attitudes to war in the 1930s — for which the Butler quote from 1935 is, I think, very relevant.

Robert said...

IMHO the MMP system we have here in NZ is vastly superior - its like a Mk2 version of the Westminster System

I'm not a fan of MMP, but it beats FPTP whenever there's more than two parties.

My personal preference is ranked ballot, mostly because I'd rather vote for (or against) a specific individual rather than a party slate. But if I had to choose between MMP and FPTP, I'd pick MMP.

I think a strong argument against FPTP is that, in the interest of strengthening democracy*, my provincial government overruled cities in Ontario who had voted to use a different voting system.

My biggest complaint against Trudeau fils is that he didn't institute electoral reform during his first (majority) term, which was one of his election promises.


*I'm not being sarcastic. That's what they said, actually. On the grounds that it would be unfair to Conservatives to use anything else.

Larry Hart said...

Robert:

but that's a separate argument to American attitudes to war in the 1930s — for which the Butler quote from 1935 is, I think, very relevant.


I don't know how this conversation went off the rails. I'm not sure that the opinion of an armed forces insider represents the attitude of most regular Americans at the time.

Except for Cat's Cradle, Vonnegut's novels rarely have chapter titles or indexes, so this wasn't easy to find, but the below excerpt is what I was talking about.


"I've never prayed before, but I'll pray tonight that you never go to Europe as a soldier. We should never get suckered again into providing meat for the cannons and machine guns they love so much. They could go to war at any time. Look at how big their armies are in the midst of a Great Depression!

"If the cities are still standing when you get to Europe," he said, "and you sit in a cafe for hours sipping coffee or wine or beer, and discussing painting or music or literature, just remember that the Europeans around you, who you think are so much more civilized than Americans, are looking forward to just one thing: the time when it will become legal to kill each other and knock everything down again.
...
"There!" he said, "I've spoiled Europe for you, and you haven't even seen it yet. And maybe I've spoiled art for you too, but I hope not. I don't see how artists can be blamed if their beautiful and usually innocent creations for some reasons just make Europeans unhappier and more bloodthirsty all the time."

That was an ordinary way for a patriotic American to talk back then. It's hard to believe how sick of war we used to be. We used to boast of how small our Army and Navy were, and how little influence generals and admirals had in Washington. We used to call our armaments manufacturers "Merchants of Death."

Can you imagine that?

Alfred Differ said...

Robert,

When I first read your Smedley quoting post I made a similar mistake as our host. I thought you were quoting someone in the recent past. That error got corrected with a jolt when I got to the parts that described actual examples. Obviously the quotes were about a century old. After a bit more I noticed they sounded familiar and came around to the idea that they were Smedley's.

I don't think you were dishonest, but I do think you made a writing mistake. It's useful to realize that many readers skim/gist first and then come back for detail if they feel it is worth it. I was NOT gisting, so I saw the details that clarified things. Still... I went part way down the same path as our host.

------

WAY back when I took English classes, I remember a teacher trying to impress upon me the purpose of the five paragraph essay format for arguments. These things had a lot of structure that I thought was a waste of my time. I've come around to it, though, because over many years I've seen people writing to persuade others and failing to convince them mostly because they couldn't construct the argument. They had a good position and still flopped. That taught me that these formats were similar to the way accountants line up numbers. Not necessary to keep accounts, but incredibly useful for them and their customers. Formats are tools.

What you wrote had everything you needed to make your point, but it's in a format that fails when read by a gister. Most of us skim at some level even if it's just picking off topic sentences, so if you don't USE topic sentences... well... see the problem?

------

I gist a fair amount when reading content posted here. For some that's all I do. For everyone else that's how I start.

Alfred Differ said...

Duncan,

I like the idea of a Shadow Cabinet, but I'm not sure it will work here. We'd actually have to agree on who the opposing leaders are. Can you imagine the GOP doing that right now? Who would round out the opposing Cabinet?

Over here... it also smacks of treason. We are supposed to get behind the winner of an election. Obviously we don't and never did, but there are limits on how much we tolerate opposition... that we've been tearing down in the last ten or twenty years.

I think we could learn a thing or two from those of you with parliamentary systems, though.

locumranch said...

A persecution complex is defined as 'the strong belief or fear (which may or may not be justified) that other people hate you or are trying to harm you'. It's delusional form is highly correlated with schizophrenia & schizoaffective disorders, having been linked to an Ashkenazi-specific DNST3 gene variant that increases expression by 40% among this population.

https://www.haaretz.com/2013-11-26/ty-article/.premium/ashkenazi-gene-increases-schizophrenia/0000017f-e04b-d75c-a7ff-fccfa3e10000

So, when Tom Lehrer sang "And everybody hates the Jews", he sang his PERCEPTION, a darkly humorous one that Larry_H often terms 'kidding on the square', but one associated with the following logical ramifications:

We are liberated to respond in a similarly implacable, merciless & potentially violent fashion to any perceived EXISTENTIAL THREAT if & when we conclude that we are surrounded by implacable, merciless & potentially violent foes who desire our destruction.

Also known as psychosis, this type of irrational thinking is in no way limited to the Ashkenazi, as this is the story arc of every revenge tale ever told. It is a self-propagating VICIOUS CYCLE, being the origin of various intergenerational feuds and blood libels, up to & including the modern Victim Cult variant.

In short, all these EXISTENTIAL THREATS of yours are the combined product of what you perceive & your subsequent response to what you perceive, making all of us the architects of our own personal existential crisis.

This is why our fine host is not necessarily opposed to oligarchy, wealth inequality, elitism, deep statism, nationalism, fascism & racism, but only those which he judges to be a personal existential threat.

Red state, blue state, I hate, you hate...


Best

duncan cairncross said...

Alfred

We are supposed to get behind the winner of an election.

That I believe is one of the problems with an elected President -
A Parliamentary system with the "Prime Minister" being the first amongst equals avoids that issue

The "opposition" are all elected and equal

David Brin said...

Good. At least poor L recovered his linguistic abilities. I was afraid the poor fellow had had a stroke. A second one, since an earlier one may be responsible for the poor sap's delusional percept.

----

Making elected legislators ministers is sheer unbelievable nonsense. OTOH separating a Head of State who could fire a jibbering loony head of government has its points. It's why the 1st thing Hitler did was murder President Hindenberg.

The present US chaos is a relic of back in the last century when constituencies voted more for the person than the party. Alas, long gone.

duncan cairncross said...

Making elected legislators ministers is sheer unbelievable nonsense.

This gets to the core of the problem
MPs or Members of your House are NOT expert "legislators" - they are not experts in that field

Instead they are elected as the "leaders" -
In terms of legislature they should be charged with creating the "Top Line" laws - starting with the "Purpose Statement" - the "regulations" which are then derived from those laws need to be created by the actual "experts" - always in reference to the "Purpose Statement"

In terms of operating the country - the "Executive Branch" - they are not experts in that either - instead they are elected to "Lead" the experts

As such having a "Cabinet" of elected Leaders - with one member as their own Leader (Prime Minister) makes sense

The "Ministers" are the "leaders" for their branches of government - the "experts" report to them

Alfred Differ said...

I think 'executive leaders' should NOT be legislating.
I think 'legislative leaders' should not be in the executive branch either.

I'm also of the opinion that our 'leaders' who encode what we consider 'just laws' (rules of justice) should not be the same people who write the rules for what the government does in an operational sense. Whether it involves building roads, maintaining ports, or operating prisons, I don't want the people deciding operational matters ALSO deciding what part of our system of ethics gets encoded into written law.

Hayek made a distinction like this in one of his last books and I liked it. Not going to happen in the US, though, short of a complete re-write of the Constitution. The world will burn to the ground before that happens.

———

As for 'shadow cabinets', I think every party should have one that voices party positions. Any party too small to muster the effort shouldn't be on the ballot for the office. This goes for Presidents and Governors.

duncan cairncross said...

Alfred

I think 'executive leaders' should NOT be legislating.
I think 'legislative leaders' should not be in the executive branch either.

Disagree completely!!
The ones that design the machine should also have experience in driving the thing!

There is nothing like having to USE the tool to focus your mind on making the tool usable

Tony Fisk said...

One point made by a management course I did a few years ago was that governments are *not* corporations, and shouldn't be run in the same manner. This is, I think, a fundamental problem with the American system.

So, while I was raised on the brilliant, subversive ores mined by 'Yes Minister' (which played upon the flip side of entrenched public servants), I'd agree with Duncan on this.

Maybe it's because we live in countries governed by parliamentary systems and can say "Come on in, the water's fine"?

Imperfect? Certainly! The problems of bureaucratic ossification being one. (Although look where the 'legislation as code' concept is coming from.)

It's telling that the right wing of politics is intent on hollowing out the civil service.

In Australia this is nowhere more obvious than ongoing demolition of the Australian Broadcasting Commission. Fortunately, as David has often noted of gop weeding efforts to date, the roots run deep.

Alan Brooks said...

Locum’s last post clarified (if that is the correct word) things. But it would help if he would expound on his theory of Hebraic Paranoia. This is what I’ve heard from a wide variety of sources, some of who appeared slightly paranoid themselves:

“Jews can’t help it, they, as blacks, are bad seeds, genetically evolved as parasites. Blacks are closer to apes; Jews close to something which can be described as corrosive. Corrosive to humankind, dissolving that which prevents social cohesion from disintegrating altogether. Which is why they control the media.”

A decade ago, I talked to a Russian security malchik by the name of Frolov. He said Russia is fearful because of not only WW2, but also Napoleon’s invasion. He said Russians are too “peasant.”
But he also said America is out to destroy Russia, which goes beyond fear—into paranoia. I told him how America isn’t out to destroy Russia, the US simply doesn’t care about Russia... nations only care about their own selves.

Alfred Differ said...

Mmm... well... I think his concern that America is out to destroy Russia isn't too far off base. It is in our interest to destroy their federation. If it broke up into smaller pieces, though, we'd probably leave them be afterwards. *

Russian paranoia is not entirely unreasonable.
The problem is that they bring some of the Hell upon themselves.

* We don't have to do much to make this happen when they are doing it to themselves. That was happening for the first decade after the end of the Cold War, but they managed to halt it.

gregory byshenk said...

Alfred Differ said...
Mmm... well... I think his concern that America is out to destroy Russia isn't too far off base. It is in our interest to destroy their federation. If it broke up into smaller pieces, though, we'd probably leave them be afterwards. *

"Destroy" may be somewhat too strong a word. But official US policy since the end of the cold war has been to ensure that no other power may be permitted to challenge US world dominance. This does not require destoying other states, but instead ensuring that they are sufficiently weak that they cannot prevent the US from doing whatever it might choose.

We don't have to do much to make this happen when they are doing it to themselves. That was happening for the first decade after the end of the Cold War, but they managed to halt it.

As our host has pointed out before, what the Russians were "doing [...] to themselves" in the 1990s was done with a great deal of assistance (arguably pressure) from the US.

duncan cairncross said...

The Russians are paranoid about invasions from the West

But if you look at History every "Invasion" has actually been a counterattack AFTER the Russians attacked somebody

Invasions from the East however ...... - but that was a long time ago

Larry Hart said...

Alan Brooks, quoting:

"Jews can’t help it, they, as blacks, are bad seeds, genetically evolved as parasites"


Dave Sim once put into perspective the level of arrogant hubris of so-called-Christians who embrace such ideas. That Hitler was saying something akin to, "God made a mistake when He chose the Jews." And furthermore, "It is up to us (Nazis) to correct God's mistake for Him."

Larry Hart said...

Alan Brooks:

But he also said America is out to destroy Russia, which goes beyond fear—into paranoia. I told him how America isn’t out to destroy Russia, the US simply doesn’t care about Russia...


In a way, Russia exhibits the same sense of self-importance that white nationalists do in America. In either case, the group involved is not content to be simply one among equals. Their very identity is wrapped up in their sense of privilege. Insisting that others have rights and protections equivalent to theirs is "destroying" them, from their POV. Refusing to recognize their mastery--refusing to engage in tribute to forestall them using their inherent privilege against us--is (in their thinking) an act of hostile discrimination against them, no different from redlining or lynching. Which is doubly ironic, as they are themselves in favor of redlining and lynching.

Alan Brooks said...

LH,
another anecdote: I called a radio gabshow, and the educated—very quick on the draw—host said there is no Us in the world, only Them versus Us.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/82/Zappa_Them_or_Us.jpg/220px-Zappa_Them_or_Us.jpg

He said patriotism isn’t sufficient, only nationalism. Arguing with his ilk goes nowhere, fast; they think patriotism a la mode is for Caspar Milquetoast.

locumranch said...

(1) Start with a strong belief or fear that other people hate you or are trying to harm you;

(2) Conclude that those who you believe hate or intend to harm you represent an existential threat in order to justify reciprocation;

(3) Reciprocate in kind if only to validate your belief that others hate & intend to harm you;

(4) Rinse & repeat.

It's a logic trap, also literally the US Neocon Strategy in the Ukraine-Russia Conflict, plotted by those who go by the names of Kagan, Nuland, Podhoretz, Kristol, Wolfowitz & Abrams.

And, you wonder why others seem to hate & attempt to harm you, even as you activiely engage in a self-perpetuating persecution complex.

This is basic transactional analysis, people. See 'Games People Play', by Eric Berne, for further details.


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Alan Brooks said...

Maybe not so much hate, as it is indifference; if one hates the Other, the Other definitely exists.
If one is indifferent to the Other, it’s almost as if the Other doesn’t exist—
out of sight, out of mind -> out of mind, out of existence.

‘No person, no problem’
—Stalin

David Brin said...

“Mmm... well... I think his concern that America is out to destroy Russia isn't too far off base. It is in our interest to destroy their federation. If it broke up into smaller pieces, though, we'd probably leave them be afterwards. *

Sorry Alfred. Russian Revanchism is something deeply to be dreaded. Putin’s fury over the dissolution of the Soviet Empire and his grudge vs independent Ukraine will only exponentiate if the RF is further dismantled. And yet we cannot turn our backs on the Moldovans, Georgians, Tatars etc who deserve escape from choke chains. Chechnyans have suffered horribly… and are now taking that out on Ukrainians under Putin’s leash. But of course the biggie is Siberia. And that’s not us.

What might happen is a constitution that gives RF regions much more autonomy. But it’s hard to envision that ever leading to democracy and a society free of the Great Man syndrome… with thousands of nukes.

“ But official US policy since the end of the cold war has been to ensure that no other power may be permitted to challenge US world dominance.”

You are careless sir, with the word “official.” But even if you are right that the US aims to maintain a unipolar pax… the problem is… what? Never in history has there been a time of greater peace and progress and freedom. ALL of history COMBINED does not match the rise of nearly all the world’s people, helped by peaceful trade, education and the extremely low defense budgets that most nations could have for 80 years, under the expensive US umbrella.

It’s kinda hard to argue with the statistical purity of 95% of world children having full bellies and in school. And half of them (in most places) girls.

“But if you look at History every "Invasion" has actually been a counterattack AFTER the Russians attacked somebody”
Well not Napolean’s 1812 stupidity. He coulda said: “Czar get out of Poland and Finland. Head south to the Balkans and Take Constantinople and I will take Greece (where there’s no snow.” Together we can then take Egypt.” It woulda worked and today we’d all be speaking French.

Glad locum's GPT unsapient speech centers are back. Quick skim... you are describing yourself with perfection! But as usual, your sepie 2D mirror perception has nothing at all to do with us, out in the realm of color anc confidence and Up.

Alan Brooks said...

We know for a fact loc won’t be visiting Israel anytime soon.

Larry Hart said...


also literally the US Neocon Strategy in the Ukraine-Russia Conflict,


That's almost the diametric opposite of true. The analogy between Ukraine and Iraq would be if Iran had invaded Iraq in 2003 and we sent Saddam weapons to fend off the invaders without putting any US boots on the ground. That's not neocon strategy. It's a different thing, in fact the opposite thing.

David Brin said...

onward

onward