Sunday, January 21, 2007

Designed To Let Us Down... our deliberately frail cell phone system

Dr. Andrew J. Viterbi, an expert on communications theory at USC, spoke up recently in support of one of the concepts I have been pushing. Based upon the obscene situation that we saw during the Hurricane Katrina Crisis, when tens of thousands of victims found themselves cut off from the world, even though they had, in their pockets, sophisticated radio communications devices -- cell phones that betrayed folks the very moment they were needed most. Viterbi commented (and apologies for the embedded self-quotation):

Brin goes on to say that the teachable moment provided by Katrina was lost, and that the cellular industry could make a relatively simple, inexpensive change that would allow cell phones to still function to network survivors in a crisis :

".... almost no attention has been paid to improving the reliability and utility of our cell networks, to assist citizen action during times of emergency. To the best of my knowledge. no high level demand has gone out - from FEMA or any other agency -- for industry to address cell-system problems revealed in the devastation of America 's Gulf Coast. A correction that should be both simple/cheap and useful to implement.

"What do we need? We need ways for citizens to self-organize, both in normal life and (especially) during crises, when normal channels may collapse, or else get taken over by the authorities for their own use. All this might require is a slight change -- or set of additions -- in the programming of the sophisticated little radio communications devices that we all carry in our pockets, nowadays.

"How about a simple back-up mode for text messaging? One that could use packet-switching to bypass the cell towers when they are down, and pass messages from phone to phone -- or peer-to-peer -- at least among phones that are of the same type? (GSM, TDMA, CDMA etc.) All of the needed packet-switching algorithms already exist. Moreover, this would allow a drowning city (or other catastrophe zone) to fill with tens of thousands of little spots of light, supplying information to helpers and reassurance to loved ones, anywhere in the world."


These pushes of mine have not gone completely ignored or unnoticed. As Viterbi's riffs on the topic show, there have been some fascinating and insightful exchanges, discussing how the nation and public might benefit by adding peer-to-peer supplemental capabilities to the present cell system.

Some object that this development could cost millions. But that is not any real obstacle in an industry making hundreds of billions in the US alone. If either the government or the cell companies saw a clear benefit model, it would be trivial to justify the relatively small expense. Certainly far smaller than incorporating web browsers and MP3 players!

The problem is that top-down hierachy mentalities do not easily grasp the potential of flattened networks.... and this despite the clear example of the Internet itself, as a super-empowering, hierarchy-flattening phenomenon.

(Indeed, I believe that there are underlying PSYCHOLOGICAL REASONS that the twin examples of the Internet - and citizen competence on 9/11 - may have prompted an immune reaction against citizen empowerment, on the part of some members of the Paid Protector Castes. But that's another story.)

One more-cogent objection to the notion of augmenting cell phones with Peer-to-Peer capability: it takes a lot more energy to transmit than to receive. Most cell phones are actually very weak transmitters that function poorly without energetic base towers nearby.

The answer to this objection is simple. In order to use P2P effectively in a crisis, when the towers are down, personal cell phones do not have to carry voice. In an emergency, text messages can make a tremendous difference, e.g. in calling for help, or informing loved-ones that you are okay, or in passing crucial information to authorities. Especially since text messages can be transmitted with multiple repetition-redundancy, simple calculations show that pocket transmitters (cell phones) could pass these along at trivial power expenditure.

Obviously, this same answer deals with objections that P2P (peer to peer) does not carry voice well. So?The algorithms for passing along text messages are very little different from classic packet switching for email, on the Internet. Implementation ought to be trivial.

How to explain why this simple augmentation has not been implemented, even though it is clearly in the national and public interest? One theory is that the cell companies may feel threatened by P2P capabilities. Or that they see no way to make money off them. But this needn't be a problem. For one thing, it should be easy for each hand set to track passed-on messages and inform the network, for billing purposes. Or else the P2P system can be turned off, whenever there is a fully functional cell tower nearby! Thus, automatically reverting to P2P only under circumstances when the capability is actually needed!

Moreover, there is an added allure to this approach, one that could help the cell-cos make real money. By developing P2P capability, companies may open the door to a new method for solving their "last mile problem" - or how to extend coverage into dark zones, just beyond reach of their current network of towers. Think. Why not let customers who happen to be at the edge of the coverage area get a small pay-back fee for every text message that they pass through, from people who are just outside the covered zone? The same way people with solar or wind generators can make their meters run backward, feeding power into the grid.

If such customers had a more sophisticated home-cradle unit, they might even be able to pass through voice calls from a nearby dark zone. Reducing their own bill, helping the company, and making our entire communications system more robust.

Indeed, can anyone doubt that someday, somebody will realize there is a business plan in this? An entirely peer-to-peer network, in which, customers home-cradle units make up the bulk of an alternative cell system? But we'll save that futuristic sci fi scenario for another time. What I am talking about, here, is something that could be implemented in just one year, if anyone (like FEMA) were actually serious about fostering a more resilient and robust society. A pretty big "if" - apparently.

The fact that cell phones served the national defense so well on 9/11, yet failed in Katrina, should have been enough to tell us that serious work is needed, work that has been entirely lacking while we let ourselves be distracted on other adventures. I mean, isn't it a no-brainer for Homeland Security and FEMA to support this kind of capability, in the national interest?

After thinking about it, how do YOU feel about the sophisticated little tranceiver radio in your pocket, now that you know that it was designed almost perfectly to let you down, someday, at the very moment that you might need it most?

76 comments:

Doug S. said...

There's one problem that I often see with with peer-to-peer, though. Not every peer can be trusted. How are we going to control, say, spam on this network?

nick t said...

doug, most security problems can probably be handled by a public key infrastructure.

The only real problem I see in the idea of pure-P2P voice calls is latency. Lots of it.

Doug S. said...

Spam is basically like a denial-of-service attack. I suppose you could have some kind of authentication system to filter badly behaved nodes, though?

Latency isn't much of an issue for text messaging, but it might be for voice.

Naum said...

Thank the RIAA and MPAA and congress critter friends that have embarked upon a campaign to see that such devices ARE NOT PRODUCED, or if such functionality is provided, it is HOPELESSLY CRIPPLED to the point that renders the device useless in that regard.

Any commercial P2P usage is bound to bump against these roadblocks.

I've wondered about this too, and as far back as 5 years ago other folks too were pondering and planning about this predicament.

Yes, I realize text messaging doesn't necessarily entail file transfers. But sending low-res (and if network could support high-res) images and support files across P2P networks could make the phones so much more useful but that will never see the light of day if a minority of short sighted beings continue in their control.

Kevin said...

Dr. Brin,
Thank you for another useful suggestion.
I think the social obstacle to this is deeper than your essay suggests.
I am reading an interesting essay by David Ronfeldt. Oops. You were the one who turned me on to that essay. (Another thank you)
In Ronfeldt's terms, the cell phone companies are well-functioning parts of the old order (tribal+hierarchy+market). Their assigned social role is to make money. We trust the market mechanism to ensure that they can only make money by doing something useful (providing cell phone service). They are good at that. (Or as good as quasi-monopolies with too much political clout will ever be)
It is not evil or incompetence or venality for them to not set up the wonderful peer-to-peer system you describe, it is immaturity. And not even their immaturity, but that of the newly emerging tribal+hierarchy+market+network order.
Which is not to deny that their obstruction can be highly frustrating. This is an interesting age to be visionary. Easy to see so much coming over the horizon but so frustrating to see what could be, easily could be, but does not happen not for technological reasons, but social ones.
By the way, does anyone anywhere have such a peer-to-peer system? How about the socially advanced Scandinavians? Or the South Koreans, who have cell phone networks far superior to ours?
Let's elect a pro-technological development president and congress in 2008 who will put the government behind the 21st century infrastructure building the same way that the New Deal helped build physical infrastructure and job skill infrastructure (GI Bill) and Lincoln helped build out the railroad network (Homestead Act), etc.

Kevin said...

Naum said...

Thank the RIAA and MPAA and congress critter friends that have embarked upon a campaign to see that such devices ARE NOT PRODUCED, or if such functionality is provided, it is HOPELESSLY CRIPPLED to the point that renders the device useless in that regard.

The lack of a way to handle "intellectual property" is a stranglehold choking our economy and society. (Reducing our annual growth rate to 2-3% from easily 20-30%.) But it is so imbedded in all societies advanced enough to reach this point that we do not even notice it much of the time or notice that it is all one issue.
We need a way to handle "intellectual property" that promotes both creation and dissemination. Treating it like air (aka piracy) is great for dissemination but undermines creation by failing to reward the work required. And discouraging creation eventually leaves less to disseminate. On the other hand, treating it like physical property (aka copyrights and patents) supports creation but cripples dissemination. And crippling dissemination eventually undermines creation too. For example, multiple pharmaceutical companies doing the same research because each must hide their work from the others, or useful technology purchased by owners of rival technology then hidden.
Right now, the likes of the RIAA and MPAA have well earned our wrath and contempt, but beyond them is a serious issue. One that will grow larger and more fundamental as long as we can outrun the more primitive issues (like Iraq). And one whose solution will involve a social transformation as great as the shift from feudal agriculture to modern industry. Or larger.

Anonymous said...

There are already cellphone handsets with point-to-point capability designed for first responders. I think they use a different cell infrastructure than commercial networks, though.

There have been consumer products with local P2P capability (such as the now-defunct Cybiko).

The trouble with putting P2P into cellphones is that companies would fear the loss of SMS revenue (which is bigger in most of the world than in the US). If it was mandated by law as an emergency-only feature, who would ensure that the system implemented actually worked when it really mattered, especially with the problem of scaling?


It's a nice idea, but maybe a better idea would be to provide emergency battery backup infrastructure, capable of routing text-only messages to special emergency numbers. Perhaps deployed on blimps (after the hurricane has gone)?

Don Quijote said...

Some object that this development could cost millions. But that is not any real obstacle in an industry making hundreds of billions in the US alone. If either the government or the cell companies saw a clear benefit model, it would be trivial to justify the relatively small expense. Certainly far smaller than incorporating web browsers and MP3 players!

MP3 Players and web browsers can easily be sold to the public and are not needed on every phone, the same would not be true for a P2P cell phone.

Not to belabor the obvious, but Corporations are not in the business of producing services or goods, they are in the business of making money.
If you want them to add emergency features to their cell phones, you are going to have it mandated by the State.


As a side note P2P are flat networks, and by definition anti-authoritarian, so why would the most authoritarian sector of our society do anything against it's ethos.

teflonjedi said...

I think this is a very interesting idea?

How does this system provide the knowledge to each of the individual mobile phones as to which way to pass individual messages? I'm not familiar with information network technology to the depth I would need to answer this question myself. I am only thinking of the internet, which knows which way to send messages because of the DNS and routing systems scattered across the system. (Didn't FIDOnet also work this way?) Here, I would only worry that each phone would have to send messages to all surrounding phones, so as to ensure transmission to the destination, and I would foresee a system cascade failure, as one message would keep bouncing through all phones in the network.

But, I'm betting I'm worried all for naught, and the answer to this problem is available out there somewhere...?

Warren said...

Some object that this development could cost millions.

Heh, it could indeed. And how much has Iraq cost so far?

Silly Old Bear said...

It doesn't take a nearby disaster to cripple the system.

I was caught up in the Rita "Let's Evacuate Houston with no real Plan" debacle. We live well over 100 miles inland and did without cell service for many days. Not because the towers were down (it barely rained here) but because everyone evacuating Houston jammed the airwaves, so you couldn't get a signal.

There's no traffic control, and no way to try and get around the problem - you either get a signal or you don't. On the internet you can look for a mirror of a site that is overloaded, at least.

I agree with others, though, that your average provider will not enable or include features that don't add to their bottom line unless it is shoved onto them by the regulators.

SteveO said...

A minor idea to help sell it to the protector-caste:

A P2P text messaging system would be a great way to send out local emergency notices: school closings, disaster instructions, etc.

Of course, it would be nasty if it were used for voter intimidation or manipulation, but I think that could be controlled.

More would be needed, but to sell someone on change, one needs to phrase it in terms of what it will do for them.

David Brin said...

Very cogent summary by Kevin, of the balancing act required in sensible Intellectual Property law. The RIAA vs Open SOurce controversy would be far better solved if we recalled what IP was for.

I have tried to offer ways that the CellCos could benefit (or not be harmed) by a backup P2P text message capability. There are plausible ways that they could charge for such messages. At the opposite extreme, if this ability were federally mandated in the public interest, it could be turned off whenever a useful cell tower is in reach.

teflonjedi raises interesting questions re implementation. I believe that an ad hoc P2P network - say in a Katrina-like emergency - could quickly determine where there were phone that are still in good connection with active cell towers. With these cell phones serving as anchor points, their immediate neighbors in the afflicted areas would map pretty easily on a grid to receive messages from farther in.

SteveO I have tried to sell it to folks in charge. I often consult for defense meetings, I have a popular blog, and I know seven billionaires, and yet, you'd be amazed how little influence that buys me. We are all much farther from "influence" than we like to think.

Doris said...

Remember walkie-talkies? Could some company miniaturize them into a device to be clipped onto the cell phone for emergency service?

Or ... miniature CB radios with emergency channels 9 and 19?


Off-topic wild speculation: Could dark matter consist of trillions of Dyson spheres? ;-)

SpeakerToManagers said...

Preventing spam, at least during an emergency, isn't too hard. First, every message header needs to contain the full P2P path of nodes it has encountered since its origin. Then, make it a federal crime to interfere with emergency service commnunications (it's already a felony in some states), and explicitly define the sending of commercial messages over emergency networks as interference. If the penalty is several years in jail and 10 or 20,000 dollars fine per infraction (per message) for each person convicted, I suspect there wouldn't be very many people willing to chance it.

SpeakerToManagers said...

Off-topic wild speculation: Could dark matter consist of trillions of Dyson spheres? ;-)

I doubt it. There's a good deal of evidence that the structures of dark matter formed before the normal matter galaxies. That doesn't leave either a lot of time, or a lot of places, for intelligent beings to evolve and build Dyson spheres.

ERic said...

I don't think about it. I don't have a cellphone. I'm a technoluddite.

Stefan Jones said...

DB, your power is in your fiction.

I think I've suggested this before: Write a near-future technothriller showing super-cells in action!

* * *

I don't have a cell either. The thought of spending another $40 a month irks me. OTOH, I'm considering one of those cheap-oh pay-as-you-go phones, mostly for use while travelling.

False Data said...

As one of the people concerned about transmit power, I was going to ask if you had a link to the calculations, but to be honest I wouldn't have time to analyze them properly. (That's the problem with being in school--never enough time to do anything educational.) However, the main thing I'd be looking for is to see whether they take into account the routing traffic necessary to sustain the network.

Bottom line, though, is that this is one of those subjects that can trigger endless speculation. If you want to cut through the chaff, the best way might be to turn a bunch of Linux geeks loose on it. Initially, they could start developing the P2P network protocol and routing system, which they could do on any network-equipped computer. The text messaging system from the OLTP project might have some good stuff. Then, they can try it for real with the Green Phone once it becomes available.

On a hunch, I'd guess the largest technical challenge would be keeping the routing traffic each phone must handle under control as the number of phones in the network grows. Accepting the restriction that phones must be stationary for a reasonable amount of time, say 5-10 minutes, before they can participate in the network might help on this score.

David Brin said...

Wow, that Greenphone looks terrific. I do not have much in the way of contacts with the Linux crowd. Wish I did...

...or that I had time to go drum up excitement over there. I hope that someone might act as a bridge and mention-link this concept of P2P-text capability as an "Open" problem for the OS community.

In fact, it would seem to be perfect for them. Why not push for all citizens to have at least a baseline communications capability with the radios that they paid good money to carry around in their pockets?

False Data said...

I don't have a lot of contacts with that community, either. Usually, new projects get started when two or three coders with time--often either fresh out of college or still in it--can dive into it and act as a nucleus. I don't know anyone who currently fits that description. Here are a few possibilities, though.

The first would be a letter or article in Linux Journal. Most of their content is technical, but this idea might interest them, especially considering how excited they seem to be about the Green Phone.

The second is to see if any of Bruce Schneier's readers might be interested in taking up the challenge. They tend to be kind of--ok, almost entirely--on the opposite end of the spectrum from you when it comes to privacy rights vs. the transparent society, but they also tend to have a fairly strong libertarian streak that might find the idea of peer-to-peer messaging over cell networks attractive. The best approach there might be to e-mail Bruce Schneier and ask if he'd be interested in linking to a piece you've written describing the project.

The third, which is a long shot, would be to subscribe to GNU Radio's discussion list and see if there's any interest there. The GNU Radio project is a project to develop a software radio, a radio in which software replaces most of the hardware, so the only thing necessary to turn it from an AM to FM to shortwave to a wide range of other sorts of radios is to download new software into it. I believe they have at least considered GSM. Even if they're not interested, they might know someone who is.

Unfortunately, as I said, I'm stretched so thinly right now ("like too little butter spread over too much bread") that I can't take on any new projects.

False Data said...

OK, I've also sent an e-mail on the off chance any of my friends know anyone--it has a link back to your post--and have posted a blog entry for whatever good it does.

Sigh. I guess that reading assignment's just going to have to get done tomorrow.

David Brin said...

False Data, you take care of yourself and your studies first.

I would be happy to bounce a version of my P2P-textphone idea with some eager, half-influential person in the OS community, perhaps for co-authorship on one of their sites. Perhaps - if it evolved well, it might even find a place as an article on Salon, like my "Why Johnny Can't Code" article.

What I do not have time to do is to whip it into shape right now, on my own. There would be legwork and research involved that I simply cannot do, while facing a dozen deadlines and with even more kid-related duties.

If someone were to start by annotating my screed, applying citokate and supplying grist for the gaps, I would happily discuss the matter further.

Otherwise, this has to be one more bomb that I've tossed out there. Hoping it will roil the waters enough for some good to be done.

Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Blake Stacey said...

I would be happy to bounce a version of my P2P-textphone idea with some eager, half-influential person in the OS community, perhaps for co-authorship on one of their sites. Perhaps — if it evolved well, it might even find a place as an article on Salon, like my "Why Johnny Can't Code" article.

Ouch. Are we ready for that again? The mind boggles and the blood runs cold when one imagines what Slashdotters will make of it.

"David Brin wants to destroy our cell-phone privacy!"

"David Brin loves rotary phones!"

Etc.

Rob Perkins said...

I thought I had a handle on the details of such a thing and had it half-posted here before realizing I probably had a patent on my hands. (Want to collaborate?)

The fact is I can think of at least three different ways to implement your idea, David, and the simplest one is more social than technical: The FCC could permit (or require) CellCos to boost signal strengths on cells which lose contact with neighboring cells in an emergency, while also requiring them to drop all services except basic SMS messaging.

Of course, that would actually require the FCC to be agile in an emergency. And to coordinate with FEMA and DHS in that emergency.

David Brin said...

Rob, it all sounds intriguing.

Why don't we do this. Those of you who would like to form an exploratory committee with Rob, and willing to sign a mutual NDA, speak up here and offer your email to discuss ideas. It's about time this community of wise guys actually spawned some side ventures.

As for rotary phones, well, I have a few. One of them has a separate earpiece, mouthpiece, you know like in those old movies... and a REAL bell!

Shrubageddon said...

Stefan & Eric,

I'm with you....I don't have a cell, either. They're a nuisance I can do without, although I will concede their usefulness in certain emergencies. However, I believe their benefit to society is a net zero effect. They are a source of constant distraction for the majority of the population (just look around and watch all the babbling idiots frying their brains with these things day in and day out). They are as much a hinderance and impediment to productivity, if not more, than they are an enabler, and driving while talking on one (which most people do these days) is ridiculously unsafe, thus causing needless accidents, maiming and death.

I'm reminded of the woman in Florida who ran her car off the road into one of the many lakes and as her car precipitously sank, she dialed 911 and spoke to a 911 Operator. She drowned, in case you were wondering. Instead of getting the hell out of the car, she relied on the cell phone to save her.

So it goes.

Blake Stacey said...

There's a good reason why the plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

RIVIERA BEACH, Fla., Nov. 17 (UPI) — A Florida man has been charged with beating and raping a neighbor in a gated community, threatening to kill her and locking her in her car trunk.

The victim was able to hide her cell phone from her attacker and use it when she was locked in the trunk, police said. Police found the car, freed the victim and arrested Marlin Leach, 35, the Palm Beach Post reported.

"Had she not had the presence of mind to use her cell phone, she could very easily not be alive today," said police spokeswoman Rose Anne Brown.

Doris said...

Since Bill and Melinda Gates are into both technology and philanthropy, how about applying to their foundation for a research and implementation grant for peer-to-peer emergency communication?

Someone with a good technical background in cellphonery would have to write up the proposal.


http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm

David Brin said...

I stand ready to back up this idea - plus many others - with name-appeal and/or visionary prose and/or yeoman service editing solid proposals.

It will be up to others to form teams and do the preliminary legwork, lining up expertise, creating a discussion group - closed or open - and coming up with a plan.

IF - by some miracle - such a group actually gained momentum, there are lots of places to apply for grants. Not only foundations. I live near Qualcomm, for heaven's sake. I have contacts at Defense. Problem is that I have found such places want a lot more detail than I can provide. Visionary logic only goes so far.

If I had only one idea at a time, it might be much better. I'd have fewer. But maybe some would get finished.

Tony Fisk said...

Seem like time to do anything interesting is always at a premium!

Naive question:

what prevents a cell phone packet from being channelled through 902.1 wi-fi networks?
Transmission frequency might be one thing. What else?

Woozle said...

Some brass tacks:

1. I don't know if this qualifies as a "fan site", but maybe it will serve and it is open for discussion (the "Discussion" page provides a crude but flexible forum): http://htyp.org/The_ArchiTECHS

2. Do I have permission to re-post (and ruthlessly edit) your P2P-cellphone idea, so as to facilitate further discussion? (I will certainly give original-author credit and links back to the original writings; I'd offer to mark it as copyrighted and make it read-only, but that would kinda defeat the purpose, I'd think...)

3. Holocene: yes! Please add me to the list. No hurry on working out a demo date, though; I'd like to have some time to read the docs first, and maybe try to do some, ah, documentational paraphrasing...

David Brin said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
David Brin said...

Woozle, thanks for setting up the ArchiTECHS site. I have edited slightly and added some stuff. I could also post some photographs, if it were easy and I knew how.

kewl!
http://htyp.org/The_ArchiTECHS

Please contact me via http://www.davidbrin.com and I will put you on the list to be invited to a Holocene demo

You are welcome to crib & quote and refer to my blog entries as long as you link to the original. Good luck!

David Brin said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Rob Perkins said...

Some of these ideas are certainly prior art.

For example, Microsoft advertises a feature of Vista which is claimed to be useful for building ad-hoc p2p networks. The feature is called "People Near Me".

My suspicion, though, based on a presentation I saw today, is that the People Near Me algorithm is simply "who is on my IP subnet". That's useful for wired or wireless networks in a home, and there is greater utility in a well-designed network, but it might not be the thing we're looking for.

David, I'll certainly sign an NDA with you to explore these ideas. Let's exchange a bit of email.

David Brin said...

social networking is big and a true honeypot idea. It has drawn big buck and scads of work.

In contrast, "attention allocation" has been almost utterly neglected. Indeed, even professionals do not seem to have any grasp of what the two words, placed side by side, might possibly mean.

From your description, it sounds a lot like another stab at social networking. But I'd be happy to see more.

BTW, the patent office DID frind two small pieces of attention allocation prior art that forced us to modify the patent a bit. In contrast, folks at MIT Media, Computer-Human Interface and Google... and other kibbitzers for years... have found virtually none.

Oh, but here's the intriguing thing. Why does a statement (or assertion) like the one I just made, provoke so little CURIOSITY from bright folks and (in contrast) so much anger?

Indeed, not the assertive kind of anger that propels citokate, provoking some savvy fellow to put in real work to disprove the claim. But rather, the sullen kind that makes smartass aftar smartass mutter and growl and wander away, shaking his head and murmering "there's nothing there, there's nothing there, there CAN'T be anything there, there just can't be,..."

Even if the odds are 10:1 that I'm the deluded one, isn't it symptomatic that there's so little curiosity? Well, I'd a thought so.

TwinBeam said...

Topic related link - PacketHop.

802.11b uses 'un-regulated' (actually lightly regulated) frequencies. Maybe base a cheap device for P2P texting around that, despite the relatively short range.

802.11b base stations could forward messages from nearby P2P Texting (P2PT) units over the internet, so that normally service is pretty decent. Encourage rapid creation of a "backbone" of such internet-connected base stations, by having mobile units "pay" the base station by displaying one new bitmap a minute from the base station.

If one is isolated, so that there's no known route to a base station, the P2PT would simply exchange messages with nearby P2PT units, hoping that one of them will eventually wander into contact with an active route. All messages would expire 24 hours after origination, whether they make it or not.


Off-topic - I found this editorial thought-provoking - "Don't you know your Left from your Right?" - asking why liberals supported a fascist (Sadaam) and remain opposed to helping Iraqi democracy against the various fascist insurgent factions.

reason said...

Twinbeam -
both the article, and the views of liberals of this issue are much more nuanced than your description of the issue.
I think I could summarise the issue this way, liberals care not just about the end result, but also the means by which it is obtained.

Tony Fisk said...

Twinbeam: as you say, where does wifi fit into this?

David, most people find it really, really hard to grasp an abstract concept. They need a concrete example before the light dawns. Even then, they may not be able to step back and apply that example more generally (it seems, from my observations, to be a big difference between people with scientific and engineering backgrounds. Oh the joys of applying concrete examples to concrete skulls! But, enough of my teaching methods...)

I must confess I've been scratching my head over what you've actually patented. With 'attention allocation', though, you seem to be finding words that convey the idea. Is it to do with our senses (vision in particular) focussing on only one or two things at any given time, and presenting the information of the 'holocene chat' session in a way that accomodates that focus?

That is, of course, one big problem with online conversations: hearing, our traditional communication medium, is much more diffuse than sight.

What were those 'minor prior arts' you unearthed?

reason said...

Of course the applies doubly when the end result is uncertain.

Hawker Hurricane USN(ret) said...

Twinbeam...
I don't know, why did those liberals like Ronald Reagan, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney support Saddam?
http://www.awolbush.com/rumsfeld_saddam.jpg
Picture of the liberal Donald Rumsfeld meeting Saddam at the bequest of liberal Ronald Reagan.

Patrick said...

David and Rob
I'd be willing to NDA to discuss, add me to any list.

kulervo@yahoo.com

TwinBeam said...

Reason: certainly the article is more nuanced than my few lines of summary - but I think I accurately stated the author's core message. He's a liberal/leftist who thinks far too many liberals are simply wrong regarding Iraq.

Hawker - Note that I said the article was "thought-provoking" - not "on target".

As it happens, I don't agree with the author's conclusion that we need to keep messing around in Iraq, nor that the invasion was justified.

Knee-jerk opposition of the Right, as you displayed, is my own answer to the question the article's author raised - allowing the neo-con Right to set the agenda for the Left.

HawkerH said...

TB:
The answer to the question "Why did Liberals support Saddam?" is "They didn't. Why do NeoCons lie about who Liberals support?"

Taking Saddam out of power was a good thing. How we went about it was wrong. We had more important things to do with our treasure, soldier's blood, and time. To point this out isn't liberal (unless Pat Bucanan is a liberal now).

My "Knee jerk reaction" to the phrase "Why did liberals do (blank)" is to find out what liberals actually DID. Since in this particular case, I already knew what they had done, I just called up a little of the hypocracy of the right with thier claim of "Why did Liberals support Saddam".

David Brin said...

Woozle, thanks for setting up the ArchiTECHS page at:
http://htyp.org/The_ArchiTECHS

I had a whack at revising some of it. I have some pictures I might upload, if I knew how.

Tony, I will try to revise page one of the holocene site, by adding the following paragraph:

As our devices and connections grow more powerful, human beings suffer from the “firehose effect” - attempting to drink a torrent with the one thing that is fundamentally limited human attention. This problem is not new! In real life, our brains and minds developed many subtle techniques for dividing and allocating attention in order to pick-and-choose, prioritize and get the “gist” of the myriad data sources that surround us. Unfortunately, very little of this power - to prioritize and allocate attention - has ever been emulated in the world online.

The minor prior art: AFTER I had been circulating these ideas for years, a guy at IBM patented a method for adjusting ALLOCATION OF COMPUTATIONAL RESOURCES according to how far away from the observer, in virtual space, other users are. This was a very flawed claim, as it has only to do with allocating very specific, computer centered division of computing, e.g. level of rendering. He might have (and I have) claimed a wide range of REPRESENTATIONAL and VISUAL and SEMANTIC traits as variables affected by distance...

...or by orientation, time, reputation or aspects of semantic content. As is, he left all of that to me.

You and Patrick are welcome to write to me via http://www.davidbrin.com and get on our list for the next demo. We no longer (since the patent) require NDAs. Indeed, we like people spreading the memes around. In this case, a patent has made us much more open. We do not even mind OS experiments and hope that OS versions will flower. We just deserve a right to benefit, if IBM or MS or Google run with these ideas. In any event, we have now prevented THEM from patenting it all.

Hawker, you need to read that WONDERFUL article by Nick Cohen with a European perspective. Our American “left” is pallid and pathetic. Liberals vastly dominate over true lefties here. And liberals are capable of hating BOTH Saddam and Bush.

In Europe it is the other way around. Their left is as powerful and overwhelmingly dogmatic as the right is (both here and there). I’ve lived in both London and Paris for extended periods. Enemies are all that matters to zero-sum thinkers. And the rare positive-sum thinker like Cohen is quickly abjured and purged from the movement.

Truly, I believe Western Civilization is in trouble. The only truly large scale and powerful institution that I know of, that is still dominated by its moderate and modernist, positive sum forces is the Democratic Party of the United States. And they are all chasing after a bunch of $%#$$@#* senators. God help us.

HawkerH said...

David
Re-read the 'wonderful' article. It still reads like a neocon apolegetic. I didn't oppose the war because I'm anti-Bush or pro-Saddam, I opposed it because it was a waste of time, resources, and blood... something you once said about the difference between 'elective surgery and life saving surgery' I believe? Taking Saddam out of power was something that Needed To Be Done (Someday), but should have waited until we had nothing better to do with our military. Now our troops are tied up in Iraq, when they could be finishing the job in Afghanistan, or helping out in Somalia, or dealing with natural disasters, or preparing/preventing the next big terror attack.

Memory is a funny thing. I'm remembering a conversation I had with a fellow sailor in January of 2003. I was sure that Saddam had no WMD, he was sure that Saddam had them... and he said "When Saddam gasses our troops, I'm going to find you and laugh in your face." My response? "If Saddam gasses our troops, I'm going to cry for our dead troops."

David Brin said...

Hwker, you are a decent & wise fellow. But I think you are being unfair to Nick Cohen. His article was an appraisal of the sorry state of the left in Europe, and their countless spasmodic idiocies.

It was no defense of George W. Bush. Indeed, the author seems to be struggling to make the same liberal vs leftist distinction that comes easily to many Americans. Recall when he said "American democrats can go and fight Saddam, then return home to fight republicans."

Let us be clear. I utterly despise the neocons for "correcting" the betrayal of 1991 in such a grotesque way, lying and meddling and creating the stupidest war plan in 200 years, pissing in the faces of all our allies, frittering our world goodwill, tossing away our budget, creating 100x as many casualities - on both sides - as were ever necessary, and so on...

Still, I do not apologize for correcting that betrayal. The horror of Joe Lieberman and Hillary Clinton is not that they went along this path part of the way with Bush. The horror is that they did not stand up ans say: "You have no credibility to lead us in this manner. You are incompetents - at best - and we demand our right to follow better men than you, when America does go into battle."

HHurricane said...

David
Because I respect your opinion, I shall pause and reflect and go a-googling for more information.

Perhaps I am being knee-jerk... or perhaps it's because I've never seen any liberal/leftist defend Saddam.

reason said...

David,
the left in Europe is healthier and more diverse than you give it credit for. It is however, much more pacifist than you seem to realise. This tends to make it of course knee-jerk anti-zionist and anti-american, more so than it should be. But don't take it personally. They can still be reasoned with. Remember Joschka Fischer and how he acted when in power.

Michael "Sotek" Ralston said...

Okay, this is late.

I suspect it won't be seen, but oh well, may as well make the post here anywhere.

Okay. On Holocene:

1) Patent - right. When you put it like that, I can't disagree. I just wish you made your view on OS experimentation of Holocene concepts clearer, earlier. That would probably have shortcut most of the patent-based objections.

2) I've signed up for the demo (as you know)... I think that when I looked at it last time, it was the NDA that scared me away. So that too is resolved; I just hope I get some warning of when the demo will be before it takes place, as other things have been distracting of late. (Hence why I didn't reply until now.)

3) I'm still not sure I "get it", but I'm hoping the demo will fix that. I've got a low-level brainstorm fizzing somewhere in the back of my mind on the general aspects of an OS version of Holocene, though, so hopefully when the time comes, I can do useful things.

Woozle said...

Just for reference since this entry is the source of the article, I've reposted the main article (with permission as given above) here.

Dr.B -- let me know if anything isn't right. Still planning to re-post more articles as time permits.

Prester said...

Slashdot has a pointer to one attempt to address the fragile cell-phone system -- http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/03/16/1237201.shtml -- "A portable box, called the Tactical Base Station Router, can serve as a gateway for cellular communications and VoIP network calls. Developed by Alcatel-Lucent, it allows deployment of reliable services in disasters, search and rescue operations, and (as has seen use in recent years) military encounters. 'The TacBSR is available for U.S. government customers only' ..."
Which is very interesting in itself. No bottom-up outside-government-control systems here, by golly.

6star Cellular said...

You must have been worked hard on this info. Thanks for sharing with us.

Regards,
6tar Cellular
Free Source For Free Ringtones

Caterina said...

Hi David, long time.
Love your P2P idea, I'll bring it up next time I'm at m]Motorola. Someone posted the best answer to get your idea rolling- write about it in fiction. The list of things RAH developed in his stories is startling. A good story using your peer to peer concept is a great idea, or a movie. Disaster flicks do seem to be in vogue now!
Hope All is well,
Caterina Pryde

Hank Roberts said...

> the sophisticated little
> tranceiver radio ...

Folks, while waiting for the future, you all can easily become licensed ham radio operators. Have a radio in your pocket that will work now, _and_ work for change.

http://www.arrl.org/

No Morse requirement any more.

There's an emergency ham operators group near you.

They check in with each other on several bands frequently. They probably will show up at your local fire station to get emergency communications going when the power goes out.

Don't just plead for technology to get better.
Get good at what we have now and then demand improvement from experience.

You can do this with a couple of hours' study of the question pool, available online, and an hour or so to take the exam. ARRL will have all you need to begin.

Hank Roberts said...

Oh, and the first news story at ARRL.ORG today?

Yes, the Federal Government really _does_ work actively to screw up ham radio use.

There are three or four broadband- over- powerline systems that don't interfere with ham bands. There's one that egregiously screws up ham radio.

That's the one the FCC has been most eager to approve. Yep, the one that interferes with ham radio.

Go figure.

"Court Finds FCC Violated Administrative Procedure Act in BPL Decision (Apr 25, 2008) -- The US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit today released its decision on the ARRL's Petition for Review of the FCC's Orders adopting rules governing broadband over power line (BPL) systems. The Court agreed with the ARRL on two major points and remanded the rules to the Commission. ..."

Hank Roberts said...

Oh, and the first news story at ARRL.ORG today?

Yes, the Federal Government really _does_ work actively to screw up ham radio use.

There are three or four broadband- over- powerline systems that don't interfere with ham bands. There's one that egregiously screws up ham radio.

That's the one the FCC has been most eager to approve. Yep, the one that interferes with ham radio.

Go figure.

"Court Finds FCC Violated Administrative Procedure Act in BPL Decision (Apr 25, 2008) -- The US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit today released its decision on the ARRL's Petition for Review of the FCC's Orders adopting rules governing broadband over power line (BPL) systems. The Court agreed with the ARRL on two major points and remanded the rules to the Commission. ..."

Anonymous said...

warhammer gold warhammer money warhammer accounts tibia money tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts buy runescape accounts runescape money runescape gold runescape gp runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling cheap rs2 powerleveling runescape equipment buy rs equipment runescape runes cheap rs2 runes runescape logs cheap rs2 logs runescape items buy runescape items runescape quest point rs2 quest point cheap runescape questpoint runescape gold runescape items runescape power leveling runescape money runescape gold buy runescape gold buy runescape money runescape items runescape accounts runescape gp runescape accounts runescape money runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling tibia gold dofus kamas buy dofus kamas wow power leveling wow powerleveling runescape questpoint rs2 questpoint Warcraft PowerLeveling Warcraft Power Leveling World of Warcraft PowerLeveling World of Warcraft Power Leveling Hellgate money Hellgate gold buy runescape logs buy rs2 items cheap runescape items Hellgate London gold Guild Wars Gold buy Guild Wars Gold runescape items rs2 accounts cheap rs2 equipments lotro gold buy lotro gold buy runescape money buy runescape gold buy runescape runes lotro gold buy lotro gold runescape money runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling eve isk eve online isk buy runescape power leveling rs2 power leveling tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts Fiesta Silver Fiesta Gold Scions of Fate Gold Hellgate Palladium Hellgate London Palladium SOF Gold Age Of Conan Gold AOC Gold ArchLord gold tibia money tibia gold runescape accounts runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling buy ArchLord gold DDO Plat Dungeons and Dragons Online Plat

sexy said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,按摩棒,跳蛋,充氣娃娃,情境坊歡愉用品,情趣用品,情人節禮物,情惑用品性易購,A片,視訊聊天室,視訊,視訊聊天,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,聊天室,UT聊天室,免費視訊,視訊交友,免費視訊聊天室

免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,日本A片,免費A片下載,性愛

A片,色情,成人,做愛,情色文學,A片下載,色情遊戲,色情影片,色情聊天室,情色電影,免費視訊,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色,情色視訊,免費成人影片,視訊交友,視訊聊天,視訊聊天室,言情小說,愛情小說,AIO,AV片,A漫,av dvd,聊天室,自拍,情色論壇,視訊美女,AV成人網,色情A片,SEX,成人圖片區

情趣用品,A片,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,色情網站,免費AV,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人網站,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,成人影片,情色網


情趣用品,A片,免費A片,日本A片,A片下載,線上A片,成人電影,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,微風成人區,成人文章,成人影城,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,臺灣情色網,色情,情色電影,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,麗的色遊戲,情色論壇,色情網站,一葉情貼圖片區,做愛,性愛,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,美女交友,做愛影片

av,情趣用品,a片,成人電影,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,aio,av女優,AV,免費A片,日本a片,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,聊天室,美女交友,成人光碟

情趣用品.A片,情色,情色貼圖,色情聊天室,情色視訊,情色文學,色情小說,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,情色電影,色情遊戲,色情網站,聊天室,ut聊天室,豆豆聊天室,美女視訊,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,視訊交友網,免費視訊聊天,免費A片,日本a片,a片下載,線上a片,av女優,av,成人電影,成人,成人貼圖,成人交友,成人圖片,18成人,成人小說,成人圖片區,成人文章,成人影城,成人網站,自拍,尋夢園聊天室

said...

A片,A片,成人網站,成人漫畫,色情,情色網,情色,AV,AV女優,成人影城,成人,色情A片,日本AV,免費成人影片,成人影片,SEX,免費A片,A片下載,免費A片下載,做愛,情色A片,色情影片,H漫,A漫,18成人

a片,色情影片,情色電影,a片,色情,情色網,情色,av,av女優,成人影城,成人,色情a片,日本av,免費成人影片,成人影片,情色a片,sex,免費a片,a片下載,免費a片下載

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣

A片,A片,A片下載,做愛,成人電影,.18成人,日本A片,情色小說,情色電影,成人影城,自拍,情色論壇,成人論壇,情色貼圖,情色,免費A片,成人,成人網站,成人圖片,AV女優,成人光碟,色情,色情影片,免費A片下載,SEX,AV,色情網站,本土自拍,性愛,成人影片,情色文學,成人文章,成人圖片區,成人貼圖

交友,AIO交友愛情館,AIO,成人交友,愛情公寓,做愛影片,做愛,性愛,微風成人區,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人影片,成人,成人貼圖,18成人,成人圖片區,成人圖片,成人影城,成人小說,成人文章,成人網站,成人論壇,情色貼圖,色情貼圖,色情A片,A片,色情小說,情色小說,情色文學,寄情築園小遊戲, 情色A片,色情影片,AV女優,AV,A漫,免費A片,A片下載

Ryan said...

What about dual mode cell phones that have an emergency switch on them to a satellite network to avoid cell tower and landline network congestion?

our said...

搬家 搬家 搬家公司 徵信社 徵信 彩妝造型 新娘秘書 票貼 室內設計 室內設計 徵信 徵信社 外遇 徵信 徵信社 外遇 搬家 搬家 花蓮民宿 花蓮民宿 免費a片 a片 免費av 色情影片 情色 情色網 色情網站 色情 成人網 成人圖片 成人影片 18成人 av av女優 情慾 走光 做愛 sex H漫 免費a片 a片 免費av 色情影片 情色 情色網 色情網站 色情 成人網 成人圖片 成人影片 18成人 av av女優 情慾 走光 做愛 sex H漫 a片 アダルト アダルト アダルトサイト アダルトサイト 離婚 抓姦 外遇蒐證 外遇抓姦 外遇 侵權 仿冒 應收帳款 工商徵信 Shade sail nike shoes 水泵 电动隔膜泵 自吸泵 离心泵 磁力泵 螺杆泵 化工泵 水泵 电动隔膜泵 自吸泵 离心泵 磁力泵 螺杆泵 化工泵 水泵 电动隔膜泵 自吸泵 离心泵 磁力泵 螺杆泵 化工泵 隔膜泵 气动隔膜泵 隔膜泵 气动隔膜泵 隔膜泵 气动隔膜泵 a片 成人網站 成人影片 寵物用品 情趣用品 情趣用品 MBA 在职研究生 在职博士 補習班 花店 花店 補正下着 中古車買賣 貸款 婚紗 婚紗攝影 補習班 留學 情色 情色 百家乐 轮盘 21点 德州扑克 百家乐系统 真人娱乐场 百家乐 足球 德州扑克 电子游戏 英格兰超级联赛 德国甲组联赛 意大利甲组联赛 西班牙甲组联赛 法国甲组联赛欧冠杯 英超 足球比分 足球彩票 体育彩票 即时比分 堆高機 婚禮佈置 宜蘭民宿推薦 寵物用品 情趣用品 情趣用品 坐月子 植牙 牙齒矯正 租屋 催眠 房屋出租 租房子 xo醬 牛軋糖 牛嘎糖 代償 房屋貸款 信用貸款 失眠 減肥 眼鏡 金門高梁酒 變頻洗衣機 票貼 借款 關鍵字廣告 租車 派報 漆彈 減重 高雄花店 學英文 糖尿病 花店 呼吸照護 勞工體檢 安養中心 飾品批發 窈窕 雞腳凍 自行車褲 自行車帽 自行車衣

Anonymous said...

Tomica Minichamps
Mini-Z Kyosho Futaba RCtank Choro-Q Ebbro Tiger I Silyerlit Radiocontrol
Tamiya Tomy Cars Model Tamiya Ebbro Kyosho Mini-Z Tomica .
. .
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Tomica
Tomica
Tomica
Tomica
Minichamps
Minichamps
Minichamps
Minichamps
Minichamps
Mini-Z
Mini-Z
Mini-Z
Mini-Z
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Futaba
Futaba
Futaba
Futaba
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Ebbro
Ebbro
Ebbro
Ebbro
Ebbro
Ebbro


Tomica
MIni-Z
Minichamps
Choro-Q
Kyosho
Tiger I
RC tank
RC bearing
car model
Futaba
Tomica
Minichamps
Tiger I
Tomica
Minichamps
Choro-Q
Mini-Z
Kyosho
Futaba
RC tank
Minichamps
Mini-Z
Tomica
Kyosho
Minichamps
Futaba
Choro-Q
Tomica
Mini-Z
Tomica
Minichamps
Tomica
Mini-Z
Kyosho
Minichamps
RC Tank
RC Tank
Mini-Z
Tomica
Mini-Z
Minichamps
Futaba
Futaba
Tomica
Minichamps
Mini-Z
Futaba
Mini-Z
Futaba
Tomica
Kyosho
Mini-Z
Tomica
MIni-Z
Futaba
Mini-Z
RC Tank
Futaba
Minichamps
Mini-Z
Mini-Z
Futaba
Futaba
RC Tank
RC Tank

Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q
Choro-Q

RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank
RC Tank

Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho
Kyosho

清朝美女 said...

(法新社倫敦四日電) 英國情色大亨芮孟的成人光碟公司昨天說,芮孟日前去世,享壽八十二歲;成人影片這位身價上億的房地a片產開發商,a片曾經在倫敦成人電影色情影片出第一場脫衣舞表演。


av孟的財產估計達色情六億五千萬英鎊(成人網站台幣部落格將近四百億),av女優由於他名下事業大多分a片下載布在倫敦部落格夜生活區蘇活區,因此擁有「蘇活之王」的稱號。
部落格a片

他的成人電影公司「保羅芮孟集團」旗色情下發行多種情色雜誌,包括「Razzle」AV片、「男av性世色情成人」以及「Mayf情色電影air」。


情色電影孟本名傑福瑞情色視訊.安a片下載東尼.奎恩,情色父親為搬運sex承包商成人網站。芮孟十五歲成人影片離開學校,矢言要在表演事業avav名,起先表色情a片演讀心術,a片後來成為巡迴歌舞雜耍表演的製作人。


許多評avdvd論家認為日本av,他把情色表演帶進成人主流社會,一九av女優av女優九年主持破天荒的脫衣舞表演,後來更靠著在蘇活區與倫敦西區開發房地產賺得大筆財成人網站富。
情色

有人形容芮孟是英國的海夫納成人影片,地位等同美國的「花花公子」創辦人海夫納。

pco said...

白蟻
除白蟻
白蟻防治
跳蚤
除跳蚤
跳蚤防治
蛀蟲
除蛀蟲
蛀蟲防治
白蟻
除白蟻
白蟻防治
跳蚤
除跳蚤
跳蚤防治
蛀蟲
除蛀蟲
蛀蟲防治
除蟲
除蟲

Anonymous said...

桃園脫衣視訊聊天室桃園脫衣視訊聊天室桃園脫衣視訊聊天室台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖台灣Kiss色情無碼貼圖美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室美眉共和國 影音視訊聊天室洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺 成人 影城洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺成人論壇洪爺的家 色情影音城洪爺的家 色情影音城洪爺的家 色情影音城洪爺的家 色情影音城洪爺的家 色情影音城洪爺的家 色情影音城洪爺的家 色情影音城aa片免費看微風論壇080哈啦聊天室6k聊天室成人聊天室上班族捷克論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室520視訊聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族 a片a片影片免費情色影片免費a片觀看小弟第貼影片區免費av影片免費h影片試看 H漫 - 卡通美女短片小魔女貼影片免費影片觀賞無碼a片網美女pc交友相簿美女交友-哈啦聊天室中文a片線上試看免費電影下載區免費試看a短片免費卡通aa片觀看女優影片無碼直播免費性感a片試看日本AV女優影音娛樂網日本av女優無碼 dvd辣妹視訊 - 免費聊天室美女交友視訊聊天室 080免費視訊聊天室尋夢園聊天室080苗栗人聊天室a片下載日本免費視訊美女免費視訊聊天中文搜性網後宮電影院 - 免費a片a片下載情色A片下載gogo2sex免費成人影片xvediox 免費a片影片 go2av免費影片伊莉討論區 sex520免費影片gogobox下載論壇ggyy8在線漫畫

yimeier.2008 said...

汽車旅館
消費券優惠
motel
消費券
薇閣
住宿券
廣交會
廣州飯店
廣州
广州
广交会
广州酒店
Canton Fair
Guangzhou Hotel
Guangzhou
広州
広州の交易会
広州のホテル

kevio said...

威創牙醫診所除了提供優質的植牙技術外還提供假牙|矯正|牙周病治療,是值得您信賴的牙醫診所

獅王紋身工作室提供專業的無痛刺青技術,獅王紋身在世界TATTOO大賽中,獲獎無數,獅王紋身給您最時尚的作品。

陳駿逸皮膚科診所提供了治療痘痘的服務,皮膚雷射權威,包括雷射脈衝光除斑等,讓您回復青春蘋果臉。

ck皮件處理棧提供專業洗包包|洗鞋子|各式皮件修理保養疑難雜症都有服務,清洗包包專門店讓您的包包、鞋子、永遠保持最新的況態唷。

杏儒中醫診所提供了糖尿病的治療。

seo大師e王國幫您的網站輕鬆在您的行業裡站上第一頁,e王國的關鍵字行銷是您的好幫手,包括關鍵字自然排序、都能讓您獲得完美的效果,以目前的網路行銷不外乎是關鍵字自然排序為主、而關鍵字行銷seo又是e王國的強項讓e王國幫您征服網海。

海盜 said...

成人網站,av女優,成人網站,a片,成人影片,h漫,成人電影,成人電影,色情,成人影片,免費A片,色情,成人影片,色情,免費A片,微風成人,情色,成人網站,av女優,成人網站,a片,成人影片,h漫,色情,成人電影,色情,成人電影,色情,成人影片,免費A片,成人影片,免費A片,情色,微風成人,成人網站,av女優,成人網站,a片,成人影片,h漫,成人電影,成人電影,色情,成人影片,免費A片,色情,成人影片,色情,免費A片,





微風成人,情色,成人網站,av女優,成人網站,a片,成人影片,h漫,色情,成人電影,色情,成人電影,色情,成人影片,免費A片,成人影片,免費A片,情色,微風成人,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,打卡鐘,跳蛋,持久液,成人網站,成人網站,成人網站,成人網站,色情網站,色情網站,色情網站,色情網站,av女優,av女優,av女優,av女優,色情,色情,色情,色情,h漫,h漫,h漫,h漫,sex,sex,sex,sex,成人影片,成人影片,成人影片,成人影片,成人電影,成人電影,成人電影,成人電影,av女優,a片,a片,a片,a片,成人網站,







成人網站,成人網站,成人網站,成人影片,成人影片,成人影片,成人影片,av女優,av女優,av女優,av女優,色情,色情,色情,色情,h漫,h漫,h漫,h漫,sex,sex,sex,sex,情色,情色,情色,情色,黃金回收,黃金回收,黃金回收,黃金回收,借錢,借錢,借錢,借錢,植牙,植牙,植牙,牙醫,牙醫,牙醫,a片,a片,a片,a片,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,成人網站,成人網站,成人網站,成人網站,成人影片,成人影片,



成人影片

,成人影片,av女優,av女優,av女優,av女優,色情,色情,色情,色情,h漫,h漫,h漫,h漫,sex,sex,sex,sex,情色,情色,情色,情色,黃金,黃金,黃金,黃金,黃金價格,黃金價格,黃金價格,黃金價格,黃金買賣,黃金買賣,黃金買賣,黃金買賣,當舖,當舖,當舖,當舖,鑽石價格,鑽石價格,鑽石價格,鑽石價格,鑽石回收,鑽石回收,鑽石回收,鑽石回收,鑽石買賣,鑽石買賣,鑽石買賣,鑽石買賣,黃金存摺,黃金存摺,黃金存摺,







黃金存摺,辣妹視訊,辣妹視訊,辣妹視訊,辣妹視訊,080視訊聊天室,080視訊聊天室,080視訊聊天室,080視訊聊天室,美女交友,美女交友,美女交友,美女交友,情色視訊,情色視訊,情色視訊,情色視訊,哈啦聊天室,哈啦聊天室,哈啦聊天室,哈啦聊天室,ut聊天室,ut聊天室,ut聊天室,ut聊天室,聊天室,聊天室,聊天室,打卡鐘,火鍋吃到飽,創業加盟,賺錢,吃到飽麻辣鍋

小怡 said...

花蓮租車
花東旅遊
花蓮旅遊
花蓮租車
花蓮租車旅遊網
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮旅行社
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
租車花蓮
花蓮旅行社
花蓮租車
花蓮租車旅遊網
租車旅遊網
花蓮旅遊
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮旅遊景點
花蓮旅遊行程
花蓮租車
租車
花蓮旅遊
花蓮賞鯨泛舟溯溪
花蓮租車資訊
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮旅遊地圖
花蓮黃頁網路電話簿
花蓮入口網
花蓮民宿黃頁
花蓮租車
花東旅遊
花蓮旅遊
花蓮租車
花蓮旅遊
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
租車花蓮
花蓮租車
花蓮包車
花蓮租車旅遊網
花蓮旅遊
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮旅遊景點
花蓮旅遊行程
花蓮租車
租車
花蓮賞鯨泛舟溯溪
花蓮租車資訊
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮租車
花蓮旅遊地圖

元美女 said...

(法新社a倫敦二B十WE四日電) 「情色二零零七成人影片」情趣情色產品大產自二十色情三日起在倫敦的肯辛頓奧林匹亞AV女優展覽館舉行,倫敦人擺脫對性的保守A片態度踴躍參觀,成人影片許多穿成人網站皮衣與塑膠緊身衣的好色之徒擠進這項世界規模最大的成人生活展,估計三天展期可吸引八萬多好奇民眾參觀。

情色電影活動計畫負責人米里根承諾:「要搞浪漫、誘惑人、玩虐待,你渴望的我們都有。」

他說:「時髦的設計與華麗女裝,從吊飾到束腹到真人大小的雕塑,是我們由a片今年展出的數千件產品精選出的一情色部分,參展產品還包括時尚服飾、貼身女用內在美、鞋子、珠寶、玩具、影片、藝術成人電影、圖書及遊戲,更不要說性愛輔具及馬術裝備。成人電影

色情參觀民眾遊覽兩百五十多個攤位,成人網站有性情色電影感服裝、玩具及情色食品,迎合各種品味。

大舞台上AV表演的是美國野蠻搖滾歌手瑪莉蓮曼a片下載森的前妻─av全世界頭牌脫衣舞孃黛塔范提思,這是她今年在英國唯一一場表演。

以一九四零年代色情影片a片格演出的黛塔范提思表演性感的天堂鳥、旋轉木馬及羽扇A片下載等舞蹈。

參展攤位有的推廣情趣用av女優品,有的公開展示人體藝術和人體雕塑,也有情色藝術家工會成員提供建議。

夕阳栖下 said...

百家乐 轮盘 21点 德州扑克 百家乐系统 真人娱乐场 百家乐 足球 德州扑克 电子游戏 英格兰超级联赛 德国甲组联赛 意大利甲组联赛 西班牙甲组联赛 法国甲组联赛欧冠杯 英超 足球比分 足球彩票 体育彩票 即时比分 免費a片 a片 免費av 色情影片 情色 情色網 色情網站 色情 成人網 成人圖片 成人影片 18成人 av av女優 av av女優 情慾 走光 做愛 sex H漫 情色 情趣用品 情色 a片 a片 成人網站 成人影片 情趣用品 情趣用品 アダルト アダルト アダルトサイト アダルトサイト 情趣用品

原子小金剛 said...

(法新社a倫敦二B十WE四日電) 「情色二零零七」情趣產品大產自二十三日起在倫敦的肯色情影片辛頓奧林匹亞展覽館舉行,倫敦成人影片人擺脫對性的保守態度踴躍參觀,許多穿皮衣與塑膠緊身衣的成人電影好色之徒擠進這項世界規模最大的成人生活展,估計三天展期可吸引八萬多好奇民眾參觀。

活動計情色畫負責人米里根承諾:「A片要搞浪漫、誘惑人、玩虐待,你渴望的我們都有。」

他說:「時髦的設計與華麗女裝,從吊飾到束腹到真人大情色電影小的雕塑a片,是我們由今年展出的數千件產品精選av出的一部分,參展產品還包括時尚服飾、貼身女用內在美av女優、鞋子、珠寶、玩具、影片、藝術、圖書及遊戲,更不要說性愛色情輔具及AV女優馬術裝備。」

參觀民眾AV遊覽兩百五十多個攤位,有成人電影性感服裝、A片下載玩具及情色食品,迎色情合各種品味。

大舞台上表演的是美國情色電影野蠻搖滾歌手瑪莉蓮曼森的前妻─全世界頭牌脫衣舞孃黛塔范提思,這是她今年在英國唯一一場表演。

情色成人影片九四零年代風格演出的黛塔范提思表演性感的天堂鳥、旋轉木馬及羽扇等舞蹈。

a片參展攤位成人網站有的推廣情a片下載趣用品,有的公開展示人體藝術成人網站和人體雕塑,也有情色藝術家工會成員提供建議。

Anonymous said...

看房子,買房子,建商自售,自售,台北新成屋,台北豪宅,新成屋,豪宅,美髮儀器,美髮,儀器,髮型,EMBA,MBA,學位,EMBA,專業認證,認證課程,博士學位,DBA,PHD,在職進修,碩士學位,推廣教育,DBA,進修課程,碩士學位,網路廣告,關鍵字廣告,關鍵字,廣告,課程介紹,學分班,文憑,牛樟芝,段木,牛樟菇,日式料理, 台北居酒屋,燒肉,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,台北結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,造型系列,學位,牛樟芝,腦磷脂,磷脂絲胺酸,SEO,婚宴,捷運,學區,美髮,儀器,髮型,牛樟芝,腦磷脂,磷脂絲胺酸,看房子,買房子,建商自售,自售,房子,捷運,學區,台北新成屋,台北豪宅,新成屋,豪宅,學位,碩士學位,進修,在職進修, 課程,教育,學位,證照,mba,文憑,學分班,網路廣告,關鍵字廣告,關鍵字,SEO,关键词,网络广告,关键词广告,SEO,关键词,网络广告,关键词广告,SEO,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,婚宴,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,婚宴,台北住宿,國內訂房,台北HOTEL,台北婚宴,飯店優惠,住宿,訂房,HOTEL,飯店,婚宴,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,台北結婚,婚宴場地,推車飲茶,港式點心,尾牙春酒,居酒屋,燒烤,美髮,儀器,髮型,美髮,儀器,髮型,美髮,儀器,髮型,美髮,儀器,髮型,小套房,小套房,進修,在職進修,留學,證照,MBA,EMBA,留學,MBA,EMBA,留學,進修,在職進修,牛樟芝,段木,牛樟菇,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,住宿,民宿,飯宿,旅遊,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,美容,美髮,整形,造型,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA,住宿,民宿,飯店,旅遊,美容,美髮,整形,造型,設計,室內設計,裝潢,房地產,進修,在職進修,MBA,EMBA