Friday, August 20, 2021

Woke Media vs Bill Maher. A tiff that only serves the KGB-confederates.

First, a reminder to all Californians... to vote. Mail that ballot in! I assume, since you are visiting Contrary Brin, that you're sane enough to vote: "No." 


Only now, since I've gone several weeks without posting anything provovcative or controversial, let's see what a storm I can provoke.


== Bill Maher, sellout or standard bearer for the Roosevelteans? ==


Well, it's an ecological niche that only Bill Maher occupies, alas. 


While I like and enjoy many of the late-night liberal show hosts - especially fellow sci fi nerd Stephen Colbert, who gave me a cap! - I do wish more of them will draw lines in the sand and admit: 


"Yes, there does exist some crazy among the good guys, too. And that crazy sometimes hurts the cause of justice and progress, more than it helps." 


Before you scream in outrage and/or wander off in disgust, let me reiterate what you see here frequently, that our greatest danger is from an insane and treasonous Mad Right - a risen Confederate lunacy - that is waging open war - at the behest of oligarchs, mafiosi and Kremlin agents - against not only justice and tolerance but vs. every single modern fact-using profession. That last aspect gets underplayed in liberal media, but it is the core hate-and vendetta of the oligarchy. Especially Fox News.


Having said that, I assert also that you would be nuts not to grudgingly admit that our side has some flaws, including a passl of real nut jobs and bullies. With this major distinction!


* Yes, the FAR left CONTAINS some fact-allergic, troglodyte-screeching dogmatists who wage war on science and hate the American tradition of steady, pragmatic reform, and who would impose their prescribed morality and symbol-fetishes on you. 

 

* But today’s ENTIRE mad right CONSISTS of fact-allergic, troglodyte-screeching dogmatists who wage war on science and hate the American tradition of steady, pragmatic reform, and who would impose their prescribed morality and symbol-fetishes on you.   

 

There is all the world’s difference between FAR and ENTIRE.  As there is between CONTAINS and CONSISTS. 


So sure. We must spend 99% of our current attention reinforcing humanity's sole hope - a rationally-tolerant and self-critically improving enlightenment experiment, fighting for its very survival against Putin-Murdoch and their hirelings! 


And yet, our Union side of this desperate latest phase of the 250 year American Civil War is harmed by the far-fewer but still horrible nut-job bullies on our own side. Splitters who helped make today's demographically-challenged GOP the force that it is and remains. 


== More voices needed ==


I must cite especially, Maher's recent riff about "cultural appropriation," a far-left guilt trip fetish that has no redeeming qualities. It's not an exaggeration or conflation of something good... it's just simple, flat out insanity.

Oh, I'll grant that original sources should be credited and acknowledged! Like Greece always leading the parade of nations at the Olympics. 


Sure. If any Hawaiians show up at a surfing competition, they oughta get - in perpetuity(!) - the right to go first! And first-pick naming rights on anything in the entire universe that's discovered by mighty observatories now using the one, great and unambiguously miraculous gift of Poli'Ahu, the crystal clear skies on Mauna Kea. 


And if there's a Black musician or Jew in a Jazz band, they get to choose the order of their instrument solo.... fine. And for the record, real theft, like native lands, should get major redress! But that's not the purpose of "cultural appropriation!" Which is sanctimoniously chemical. 


Elsewhere I discuss the worst addiction and most harmful one in the modern age... self-righteous indignation and sanctimony, which poisons every political extreme, especially the extreme that has completely taken over the U.S. mad Right... 


...but that also fluxes across elements of a farthest-left that - while wholly justified to impatiently demand progress - rejects any notion that they are beneficiaries of generations of vigorous but pragmatic reformers who had (and needed) much thicker skins and suffered far worse indignities in order to open doors for today's "trigger-warning" activists.


The indignity of proclaiming that one is fragile - dealt crippling wounds by the slightest error of wording - is one that Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman and Robert Smalls and Mohandas Gandhi and Rosa Parks and MLK and Eldridge Cleaver and Malcolm X would have found puzzling, if not bizarre, even pathetic.


 The dissing and shit-hurling at ALLIES (as some will hereupon hurl at me) is less-surprising (read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia) but just as impractical, unhelpful and spectacularly self-indulgent.


== Loudness doesn't make you the leader of liberalism ==


In an article - The Specter of Illiberal Anti-Racism - by Nathan Gardels, Noema Magazine considers work by a person who takes this counter-argument farther than I would.  Into Bill Maher territory. But this passage is one to share:

"Fortunately, sober voices with irreproachable anti-racist credentials such as Barack Obama — “anti-anti-racists” in Torpey’s phrase — are calling out the extremists. Torpey cites Obama saying in 2019 that “This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically ‘woke’ and all that stuff … you should get over that quickly. … The world is messy; there are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws.” Obama, notes. Torpey, went on to say that “among certain young people, and this is accelerated by social media, there is this sense sometimes of: ‘The way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people, and that’s enough.’ … That’s not activism. That’s not bringing about change. If all you’re doing is casting stones, you’re probably not going to get that far."


On Bill Maher's show, he talked about "progressophobia", a term he claimed Steven Pinker coined to describe "a brain disorder which strikes far-liberals and makes them incapable of recognizing progress." Not a new observation for anyone who has spent time here. 


The punch line: "It's like situational blindness, only the thing that you can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War."


And yes, so much as mentioning Maher’s name makes me eeeeevil!  This despite the fact that he (and I!) have done more for progress in any month than most of those fuming at me right now have, across their entire lives. 


Alas that he and Barack Obama - along with Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and AOC (see below) - seem to be among the last voices for the most effective reform movement the US ever saw… Rooseveltism, that finally got progress in gear after beating back the oligarchs, invigorating labor unions, crushing fascist monsters and beginning a long, long, too-long grinding climb out of Jim Crow and the chasms that seem built-into human nature. 


Refusing to see how powerful that coalition was has led the left to make a series of mistakes that drove working whites into the arms of confederates, leading to Reaganism and our long slide. 


== Polling Americans ==


The Pew Research Center, which does some of the country’s best polls, classifies all Americans as being in one of nine different political groups. The categories range from “core conservatives” on the right to “solid liberals” on the left, with a mix of more complicated groups in the middle. While I am suspicious of many categorization attempts, this one makes a hugely important point, that on average most US racial minorities -- blacks, hispanics etc -- tend to be liberal of course, but also highly skeptical of the most-woke or leftish component.


"Much of the recent political energy in the Democratic Party has come from solid liberals. They are active on social media and in protest movements like the anti-Trump resistance. They played major roles in the presidential campaigns of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, as well as the rise of “The Squad,” the six proudly progressive House members who include Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.


"All six of those House members, notably, are people of color, as are many prominent progressive activists. That has fed a perception among some Democrats that the party’s left flank is disproportionately Black, Hispanic and Asian American.


"But the opposite is true, as the Pew data makes clear.


"Black, Hispanic and Asian American voters are to the right of white Democrats on many issues. Many voters of color are skeptical of immigration and free trade. They favor border security, as well as some abortion restrictions. They are worried about crime and oppose cuts to police funding. They are religious."


This is not to undermine "solid" liberals devotion to wokedness. You be you! And we'll get nowhere without conscience-prodding! 


And yes, as an old fart I know I must adapt to shifts in vocabulary and get more woke in some ways!  My kids, in their 20s, make sure of that!


Still, the fact that the very minorities that PC foks call clients sometimes sniff dubiously does help explain some electoral disappointments. And if you want these groups to be fully mobilized in 2022, it might be best NOT to assume all folks of color are clones of the most-visible activists. 


We need to be flexible enough to negotiate our coalition's best tactics...


...as I tried to point out in Polemical Judo.


== Oh, one last point about AOC ==


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is rightfully hailed as one of the savviest politicians of a new generation. But many of her fans don't know the half of it. 


Look more carefully! She is playing her role as a left-ish gadfly working with Liz and Bernie to keep the DP's Overton window from conceding too much. But she is not at all like the rest of her 'squad' in many ways. She very clearly wants Joe Biden to succeed, for example. And, like Bernie, her goal is re-establishment of the Greatest Generation's Rooseveltean social contract.


Watch what'll happen in 2022, when some of you will start trawling around for excuses to denounce Biden as "corporatist" ruled by Democrat-lite sellouts, as you go prepping to sit on your hands or otherwise betray us... the way the left betrayed us in 1980, in 1994, in 2000, in 2010 and 2016. 


Just watch how AOC and Stacey Abrams and Jamie Harrison and Bernie will come after you. With a stick.



177 comments:

Daniel Duffy said...

In addition to Maher, I'd also like to recommend Saagar and Krystal of Breaking Points.

Here is there take on census demographic trends that are favoring the Dems - and how the Dems have failed to capitalize on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR3UkxKX2Hc

Daniel Duffy said...

P.S. Saagar and Krystal also provide the best analysis of the collapse in Afghanistan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qbxqq-7Dv4

gregory byshenk said...

David wrote:
The punch line: "It's like situational blindness, only the thing that you can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War."

So, who exactly, actually believes this? I suggest no one at all, which is why people call BS on this kind of "punch line".

I happen to know a lot of extreme liberals (and even actual leftists!), and this is not their position. Instead, they note that every time there is some small amount of progress, the majority of people stop and say: "now everything is ok!".

Slavery was ended and (white) people said "huzzah". But one hundred years later, Black Americans continued to be discriminated against, often with the full force of law, and in many places with considerable extra-legal force. Then the Civil Rights Act was passed, and (white) people said: "huzzah, now we are all equal". But fifty years later, Black Americans still suffered discrimination in housing, employment, education, criminal justice, and so on.

Women were granted the right to vote in 1920, yet it took until 1963 for legal(!) discrimination in pay to be forbidden, and 1974 for legal discrimination in lending to finally be prohibited. Along with a string of other issues, women continue to face discrimination in employment and other areas.

What is worse is that, since the 1960s, every attempt to address - sometimes even to talk about this problem - is condemned as "extreme" or "radical" by moderates, while the voices in favour of white mail supremacy grow louder and more widespread. Not to mention that almost half of the voters voted for an openly racist president - supposedly because an old white moderate man was "too radical".

From what I see and hear, the complaint is not that nothing has changed since the Civil War, but that over a century and half far too little has changed - and not all recent changes have been for the better.

 Ashley said...

Well said, mostly*. Bravo for supporting sanity.

*It's probably because I'm British, but I find it hard to get my head around what appears to me to be the need to not only state a position, but to denigrate the opposition.

It's probably down to what I think of as loudness. After all, the British are noted for our quiet understatement.

Native American said...

Congrats, David.

You are became, now totally, bag of scum for political garbage ONLY.

Reading your posts -- pointless.

I'll give it some more chances to check this place out. Because of other people writing here.
While packing my nose with tampons to not feel stench of you.
But hardly that'll be often.


Well, I'll give this freebie, still.


"""And, like Bernie, her goal is re-establishment of the Greatest Generation's Rooseveltean social contract."""

You really are nothing but old fart.
21st century. Third Millenium beginning. Just behind your window.

But what you propose? Threaded by moles ideas of "social contract"???
Isn't that bona fide conservative? And ANTI-progressive?

Instead of proposing to give to each of us FOR FREE things like:
Pill of Youth,
personal AI secretary/doctor/lawyer/etc,
Free ticket to the Moon/Mars,
With Robo-factory to produce anything needed for sustaining life there,
as well as here.

You propose to me place in ever same socialistic getto, for the sake of pushing YOUR ideals. On me and everyone around. Argh?!!

Robert said...

And in one of my Reich-Wing newsletters, they are blaming Biden for signing a deal with the Taliban last year…

(Because, apparently, Biden was president in February 2020…)

Treebeard said...

I want to be the first at this blog to praise Mr. Biden for making the right decision in Afghanistan. I also want to be the first to congratulate the men of the Taliban for their great victory, for defending their faith, honor, lands and way of life against imperial progressivism, for defeating and humiliating the entire imperial system of NGOs, technocrats and cultural engineers who attempted to transform Afghanistan into a subservient copy of the imperial core. The fact that men armed with little more than rifles, faith, honor and a desire to defend their way of life and homeland were able to defeat this empire should be a great inspiration to other people around the world (including the imperial heartlands). They’ve struck a huge strategic blow that will begin the rollback of the liberal Potemkin empire from Eurasia—we may look back on this as the moment when the liberal age ended and a new Eurasia-centric age began. Congratulations on your great victory, men of the Taliban!

David Brin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Brin said...

Unlike most actinic screechers, "Native American" appears to have actually spent the time to lightly skin a couple of sentences in the main posting for material to howl at. I worked much harder, trying to find some overlap between his (actually hilarious!) fulminations and anything I actually said and there were none. But how ALIVE he must have felt, while typing out such volcanic fury!

Felt great, didn't it? You're welcome fellah.

Now go forth and accomplish 10% as much good, across your entire life, as I do in any month of mine.

David Brin said...

Frankly, I expected more flames than this. The only one deserving an answer is Greg B who, alas, whirled in circles desperately concocting an incantation that boils down to "Of COURSE we know things are less bad! But by saying we DON'T know that, it means YOU non-screeching liberals are telling us to shut up and accept it was enough!"

That is an utter, utter lie. You know it is a lie. You said the lie knowingly.

But thanks for proving my point. Any attempt to discuss TACTICS with you lot is perceived automatically as an assault upon our shared goals.

And we do share the same goals. It is legitimate for an agile movement to argue over TACTICS to achieve those shared goals. Indeed argument over TACTICS should be allowed and welcome within our coalition... but it is utterly hated by the woke police, who demand that ONLY their tactics - including the bullying of allies - are permissible. ANY argument over tactics is perceived as an asault vs the very goals themselves.

You said 'almost half of Americans voted for a racist... yes... and "almost" is a powerful word. The MAJORITY did NOT want Trump! But like in 1980, 1994, 2000, 2010, it is demonstrable that prissy huffiness at the far left betrayed us yet again in 2016, allowing the confederate MINORITY to take Washington DC... an accomplishment which the 1860s Confederacy never achieved, because guys like Fredick Douglass knew enough to support flawed allies like Lincoln.

Again, it is an UTTER LIE to yell that we want you to sit down and shut up and accept past victories as sufficient. It is a lie. It is a complete lier. It is a total and knowingly deliberate lie. Moreover you know it is a lie.

Your vigor to push the next phase of the great American inclusiveness project forward and correct past inclompletions and injustices is WELCOME and we share the goal. FAR more liberal middle class whites show up at BLM rallies than any other group.

Vigor is not the same thing as pissing in the faces of your allies.
Stop... doing... that. Maher's riffs about woke police say that and ONLY that. Stop... pissing... in the faces of allies.

If you don't want 2022 to repeat 1980, 1994, 2000, 2010 and 2016.

Pappenheimer said...

it is concerning that a large number of Americans are foreseeing the end of human society, and that a large chunk of those Americans are looking forwards to (rapture, governmental collapse, whatever), AND that many of THOSE Americans are actively enabling that future.

I've met some liberals who also foresee the end of civilization, and are mainly depressed. On off days I'm one of them.

As for the Afghans, congratulating the Taliban - as Treebeard and some GQPers are doing - devalues the many Afghans who have lived under Taliban rule and are not clamoring for its return. The urban/rural divide is in full force - imagine if the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation Force had overrun the Oregon State capitol and were happily waiting for the journalists to get bored and leave so they could get down to the business of burning witches.

scidata said...

Native American: bag of scum for political garbage

Not sure of the linguistic heritage...
Shoshone? Cherokee? Gopnik?

David Brin said...

Treebeard wasn'tremotely interesting or worth answering. Just a cranky toddler tantrum. Take a nap.

Robert said...

old white moderate man was "too radical"

I thought that was why Sanders wasn't chosen as a candidate? Because by non-American standards he's only a little left-wing…

I find the last graph on this page interesting:
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020

I find it interesting that, over the last decade, Canada's federal elections show a significant shift to the right. UK elections show both a polarization and linearization over the last decade. Germany's likewise show a shift to the right, as do Ireland's.

Larry Hart said...

Pappenheimer:

I've met some liberals who also foresee the end of civilization, and are mainly depressed. On off days I'm one of them.


Likewise. I have largely structured my expectations to enjoy life to its fullest before the new congress is seated in January 2023, because then America as I know it may surely be dead.

Larry Hart said...

Pappenheimer:

As for the Afghans, congratulating the Taliban - as Treebeard and some GQPers are doing - devalues the many Afghans who have lived under Taliban rule and are not clamoring for its return


Treebeard makes sense in his own way--he adores the Pashtun and religious fanaticism, so of course, he's happy about a Taliban victory. The GQP, OTOH, are insane. They hate anything Islamic with a passion and they love the US military. But they can throw all of that aside just because the Taliban gave President Biden a black eye for them.

The Republican Party should be branded a treasonous terrorist organization.

David Brin said...

Worse... they love the military... till any topic comes up under which the US military officer corps disagrees over facts. At which point the officer corps is all made up of "political officers who got promoted by manipulating procurements.

Ankle-biting gnats unworthy to polish the shoes of the men and women who won the Cold War and the War on Terror.

Treebeard said...

This adulation of the US military is pretty comical to me, given their consistent record of failure. Has there ever been an organization that got such a poor return on investment, produced bigger boondoggles and spread more chaos in the world? As for the “War on Terror”, given the billions of dollars worth of weapons and equipment the USA just left for the Taliban (like ISIS before them), the USA surely qualifies as the world's largest state sponsor of terrorism. If the US military is serious about winning its War on Terror, I guess they need to attack themselves. Which apparently they're seriously considering—bombing weapons they left behind. Talk about a win-win for the arms industry! That’s the group you should really be admiring, not the bungling military—they've never lost a war!

TCB said...

Ya know, after Antarctica and Siberia, Afghanistan is arguably one of the top three logistical nightmare regions on the planet for any foreign force to invade and hold. Even the Soviets couldn't do it as long as we did. Gotta be impressed by that.

And it occurs to me that it must have been a pretty decent place before the Mongols and the Muslims got to it. To say nothing of the Soviets. And the Saudis. And... unfortunately... the Americans.

There are probably a whole clutch of reasons why the post-WWII occupations of Germany and Japan produced sane democracies while the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan did not... but I cannot help thinking that it had something to do with US liberals running the occupations of (part of) Germany and Japan, and conservatives running the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

For me, the canonical example is American tanks arriving in Baghdad in 2003 and immediately guarding the oil ministry; while at the same time, museums and arms depots were left to be looted. I'll come right out and say it: Roosevelt sent US soldiers to liberate oppressed people, restore democracy, and return stolen property. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney sent US soldiers to substitute new oppressors under counterfeit democracy and steal property. (By the time Barack Obama inherited these occupations, it's hard to see what he could do to lift the initial curse. But renouncing the temptation to lean on drone warfare might have helped a little). And we see the results, in Germany, Japan, Iraq and Afghanistan. The honest occupations produced allies. The dishonest ones, after all this time, are still powder kegs.

GMT -8 said...

I am outraged by the Taliban victory. I am also outraged by the horrible planning and mismanagement of the US withdrawal. I listened to news on PBS and NBC. I heard one retired LTC complain that it was (allow me to paraphrase) military malpractice to time our withdrawal to take place during the "fighting season" in Afghanistan. It was military malpractice to close down the Bagram air base without warning to the Afghan military.

These decisions were not made by President Biden. He gave an order and he expected for it to be carried out competently. It wasn't. But, as the chief executive, he shares the blame. That is what sux about being the chief executive; you get the blame when your subordinates f@#$ things up.

There is always the risk of a disconnect between what people know at the lowest level...the people actually doing the work, and what the people know at the very top. I will probably get details wrong on this story, so I apologize; I am relying on memories of a book I read 20 years ago. It was an excellent book about the mistakes made by the Reagan administration after the Soviet shootdown of KAL Flight 007. The President and senior administration officials thought that it was a deliberate attack on a civilian jetliner. But, there was an Air Force officer who knew otherwise. He risked his career and told his superiors why he thought that the Soviets made a mistake; that they thought the jetliner was an American RC-135. He put together a brilliant briefing that won over his commanding officer. In turn, the commanding officer won over his superiors. Up the chain of command it went...each higher level explaining it to the next higher level. Problem is, these higher ranking officers did not know the information as well as the original officer...HE is the one who should have been briefing everyone. By the time the President and the cabinet got briefed, it was by senior military leaders who did not know the material very well and made a less than ideal presentation. This is an example of how leaders can be failed by their subordinates.

David Brin said...

Fizzing drivel from a stunningly dishonorable ingrate-ent.

For all its faults, the US military and the American Pax in general had three effects above all others, vastly outweighing Vietnam and the Bush Wars.

1- A general world peace for 75 years that - multiplied by population - has been VASTLY... by two orders - greater than any other the world ever knew. Despite headlines, 95% of living humans have never witnessed a city burn or the tramping boots of an invading army, or anything like it. Anyone who does not pause and blink to realize what an anomaly and accomplishment that is -- like 95% of all children having full bellies and school books -- is a historical ignoramus and imbecile.

2- The same protective umbrella, that we spent huge amounts maintaining, allowed most of the world's nations to spend levels on defence that were 1/10th normal amounts historically. Aside sums syphoned by cheaters, that still left vast amounts invested in infrastructure and development, an "aid program" even more powerful than #3...

3- ... a world trade system based on counter-mercantilist patterns in which the "empire" and its citizens bought 20 trillions$ in crap we never needed, funding the development of a cascade of nations from former WWII enemies to China.

Vietnam and Afgh were sad errors made by pompous fools, but were mere blips by comparison. Terrible mistakes! Empires commit them. But our ratio is the best and the people of the world know it.

And anyone cheering a return to abuse of women over there isn't just a sneering-sad incel... but a very deserving one.

duncan cairncross said...

Correlation is not Causation

A general world peace for 75 years that - multiplied by population - has been VASTLY... by two orders - greater than any other the world ever knew.

YES the two are correlated

Did one cause the other?

If you look at the history of warfare

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

Then the trend was going that way long before the USA became a superpower

The 20th century (despite the two world wars) was more peaceful than the 19th century - which was more peaceful than the 18th century - which in turn was more peaceful than the 17th century

The USA was "in charge" when that happened - but was it responsible??

David Brin said...

Duncan what an utterly bizarre assertion. The 'peaceful' Periods before WWI and WWII were intense times of furious preparation for war. And the 19th century 'hiatus' is a racist illusion that left out the Taiping Rebellion, the worst violence the world saw until WWII. The proof of causation is in the other two factors I listed. For the last 75 years most nations felt secure enough not only not to fight but not to PREPARE to fight.

Pappenheimer said...

TCB:
You are right about Afghanistan being a prettier place at one time - from a paper I found online:

"a large part of ancient Afghanistan was covered with forests. However, today, deforestation is occurring at an alarming rate, and currently, only about 2% of Afghanistan is covered with forests....environmental experts recommend that 15 percent of a country like Afghanistan should be forested in order to prevent topsoil erosion and sustain good air quality."

This is a problem for many Central Asian nations, and Afghanistan's deforestation even worse than Nepal's, which has about 30% of its forest left. It's possible that the Taliban will encourage reforestation, fight soil erosion, limit the cutting of trees for firewood, and begin to rein in the goat herds....

It's about as likely as the ANA staging a comeback, I suspect.

duncan cairncross said...

Hi Dr Brin

I hear what you are saying - but the people who analyse the numbers disagree - they look at the data and see a continual downward trend in violence

The last 75 years look like a continuation of an existing trend

When I was growing up there were certain things that I believed were definitely true and one of them was the consistency of human behavior - we are just cavemen with better barbers

Pinker's "Better Angels of Our Nature
And his later books showed that that "certainty" was "wrong"

So is Pinker and all the data wrong? - are we still cavemen with better haircuts?

Or is the reduction of violence and warfare correct?

And if the reduction of violence is correct - is THAT responsible for the last 75 years

Or (as is more likely) is it a "bit of both"

gregory byshenk said...

David wrote:
Frankly, I expected more flames than this. The only one deserving an answer is Greg B who, alas, whirled in circles desperately concocting an incantation that boils down to "Of COURSE we know things are less bad! But by saying we DON'T know that, it means YOU non-screeching liberals are telling us to shut up and accept it was enough!"

That is an utter, utter lie. You know it is a lie. You said the lie knowingly.


I note that you don't try to claim that the "punchline" is actually true. Which suggests that you know that it is - as you say - "a lie".

The thing is, there is something like it that is true. Those activist 25-year-olds of today don't really understand what things were like in 1965, and mostly don't really grasp how much has changed in the last fifty years. How could they? They didn't experience it. But to turn that into "the thing that you can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War" is plainly false and just an attempt to belittle their legitimate concerns.

Is it true that all "moderates" have done nothing? No. But it is certainly closer to true than the claim that students "can't see [...] that [their] dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War".

But thanks for proving my point. Any attempt to discuss TACTICS with you lot is perceived automatically as an assault upon our shared goals.

Note that what I objected to was not "tactics" or "shared goals", but the false and dismissive claim you highlighted - which was plainly not about "tactics". I think that a reasonable response would be to say: "yes, I can see that this claim was over the top; lets accept that and instead focus about tactics".

And we do share the same goals. It is legitimate for an agile movement to argue over TACTICS to achieve those shared goals. Indeed argument over TACTICS should be allowed and welcome within our coalition... but it is utterly hated by the woke police, who demand that ONLY their tactics - including the bullying of allies - are permissible. ANY argument over tactics is perceived as an asault vs the very goals themselves.

And this, I think, is overstated. Yes, some moderates share the same goals as progressives. But there are also many who -- so far as anyone can see -- do not. When one cannot get agreement by Democratic senators that everyone should be able to vote, then there is something not good going on.

You said 'almost half of Americans voted for a racist... yes... and "almost" is a powerful word. The MAJORITY did NOT want Trump! But like in 1980, 1994, 2000, 2010, it is demonstrable that prissy huffiness at the far left betrayed us yet again in 2016, allowing the confederate MINORITY to take Washington DC... an accomplishment which the 1860s Confederacy never achieved, because guys like Fredick Douglass knew enough to support flawed allies like Lincoln.

I think when you refer to "prissy huffiness at the far left" you give away more than you intend. This implies that half of Americans think that this "prissy huffiness" is enough to outweigh a candidate that was more overtly racist and sexist than any candidate since Wallace in 1968. This is not a sign of progress, at least in my view.

Continued...

gregory byshenk said...

... continued.

Again, it is an UTTER LIE to yell that we want you to sit down and shut up and accept past victories as sufficient. It is a lie. It is a complete lier. It is a total and knowingly deliberate lie. Moreover you know it is a lie.

Do you want progressives to "sit down and shut up"? No. I do not believe that you do. But it is true (I think) that this sort of "you don't know how good you have it" statement is almost always deployed with a conclusion (explicit or implicit) of "just accept it!" And that is why I objected so strongly to the statement I quoted.

Vigor is not the same thing as pissing in the faces of your allies.
Stop... doing... that. Maher's riffs about woke police say that and ONLY that. Stop... pissing... in the faces of allies.


For those on the left, statements like Maher's feel like him "pissing in the[ir] faces". Why is it that the progressives should be told never to annoy moderates, while also being told that they should just accept lies and abuse from moderates?

Disagree about tactics as you wish. Point out where woke leftists get things wrong. But belittling them with absurd lies is no way to build alliances.

Paradoctor said...

"Native American" unwittingly exemplifies this Murphy-esque law:

Any sufficiently bad-faith snark is indistinguishable from a sincere rant by the opposite extreme.

This is a combination of Poe's Law and the Horseshoe Theory, and it is phrased like Clarke's Law, if you set snark = technology and rant = magic.

Paradoctor said...

Brin: Duncan is echoing Pinker, whose optimism I would love to believe, but which you debunk.

Larry Hart said...

Treebeard:

This adulation of the US military is pretty comical to me, given their consistent record of failure.


You're just pissed about the beating they gave your Wagnerian sociopaths in 1945.

Paradoctor said...

Brin: you write
<< 95% of living humans have never witnessed a city burn or the tramping boots of an invading army, or anything like it.>>
Not personally, but by audiovisual media. Perhaps that's not enough. Perhaps the Smell-o-Vision sets of the future will contain a vial of cadaverine.

Jon S. said...

I submit that in part, this peaceful period was due to the major powers of the era becoming so fascinated with the overwhelming power of nuclear weapons that this was where the majority of preparation went. Fortunately for the world, these are weapons so horrific that the only case in which they might be purposefully used would be one in which one party both desired dominion over whatever might be left of the world, and believed that they would survive as a nation to take said dominion.

When I served, it was during nominal "peace"time, so I'm ineligible for any VA benefits aside from a military funeral, but I spent my time at HQ SAC/XOXPC, Force Timing & Deconfliction. Our entire purpose was to maintain the US nuclear force at a high state of readiness, such that neither of the other major nuclear powers of the time might believe they could survive attacking us. It was pretty awful, and I still have the occasional nightmare about screwing it up, but it worked - the USSR collapsed, and the Chinese reached the point where even if they could destroy the US they wouldn't (it would ruin their economy at best, as they'd lose their biggest customers).

So yeah, I'm not here for any nonsense about how the US military is nothing but blunderers who can't get anything right. Hell, I still think we might have gotten in and out of Afghanistan and left it better than when we got there, had W not gotten lost in what the objective was supposed to be and opened another front in an unrelated place for obscure reasons (because that always works out so well historically, don't it?).

Paradoctor said...

Maher's a mess. He's often right, and often wrong. For instance he's anti-vax.

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

"95% of living humans have never witnessed a city burn or the tramping boots of an invading army, or anything like it."

Not personally, but by audiovisual media. Perhaps that's not enough. Perhaps the Smell-o-Vision sets of the future will contain a vial of cadaverine.


I'd say the difference between fiction and a direct threat to one's own life and home is more to the point than which senses are invoked.

The_Wokeness said...


It's a systems problem. Cause, like, when you start learning about systems, everything is sexist, everything is racist, everything is homophobic -- and we meaning everything.

Your tech, your values, your math and your science: It's all a hateful sexist racist eurocentric monument to genocide, patriarchy and white supremacy.

We're gonna tear it all down until we reach year zero.

Der Oger said...

There are probably a whole clutch of reasons why the post-WWII occupations of Germany and Japan produced sane democracies while the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan did not... but I cannot help thinking that it had something to do with US liberals running the occupations of (part of) Germany and Japan, and conservatives running the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I won't speak on Japan, and on partisan occupations. As you stated, there are a number of reasons which may have made a difference:

Time. It is useless to change a political system if you do not allow the people to change with it, accepting it, and giving way to a generation that sees the new situation as normal. When we restarted, we were pretty authoritarian, and many politicians of the early era were quite tied to the Nazi era. Former dissidents and and victims of the Nazis were not welcomed back warmly (see Fritz Bauer, for example, or how long it took until other resistance fighters than Stauffenberg/the Kreisau Circle were recognized not as traitors, but as heroes.)

It took several events to take place - the Spiegel Affair, the Ausschwitz Trials, the Shah visit, the Terror of the seventies, the Wackersdorf riots, to name a few.

In other words, don't aim to change the political system; aim to change the culture of a population. Afghanistan had 20 years*. We have had 76, and we have still vestiges of right-wing authoritarianism left.

The Frame: One mistake I assume that had been made was to not put enough pressure on the Afghans to create a constitution that allows for a liberal, secular, defensible democracy. With all that entails: Separation of Powers, Safeguards against populism, corruption and sedition, banning religion from schools and public offices, human rights. And then use this frame as a sort of a wall to guide the next generations into what we wanted them to be. It should not have been named "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan".

Guilt and responsibility: The Afghans as a whole did not commit atrocities to the extent we did. The bad feelings about having been evil incarnate once, and having been defeated because of it, are absent in their society. Their moral bankruptcy was solely confined on their leaders, not on the majority of the population.

Everyone Who Remembers Is Dead: Already mentioned above, Afghanistan had a better past. It could have become the Switzerland of Asia, a liberal democracy on it's own hadn't Mohammed Zadir Shah not been disposed, or the Russians not invaded. (Just imagine what it would look like today if the old King or his heirs had carried on with the reforms. It wasn't on the hippie trail for nothing.) They did not have the personnel to keep the country running. Many of our bureaucrats, judges, policemen, teachers, physicians and diplomats just took off the swastika pins and hid their copy of Mein Kampf, and returned to work.(On a side note, I recently discovered that the abolishment of the death penalty in the Basic Law was also supported by the right - to spare former Nazis the worst should they be tried. Most got away anyway or with mild verdicts, though.)

*Though I'll admit that I have a small hope that the taste of freedom in the younger generation - who knew nothing about the Taliban regime - might ignite and empower the resistance.

Der Oger said...

@Larry Hart
You're just pissed about the beating they gave your Wagnerian sociopaths in 1945.

Yeah, whenever I read something from him, I cannot help but imagining a Reichsbürger stepping up on a soapbox to speak to his subjects.

Don Gisselbeck said...

If only we could get the Taliban addicted to skiing. (Full disclosure, I've skied with this coupla and mounted some of their skis.) https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://skifederation.af/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ski_afghanistan.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjK4umJz8XyAhUROH0KHW_ABMYQFnoECDUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw133z5ziH-ftfEFg_YkDozZ&cshid=1629669293565

Don Gisselbeck said...

It is very annoying that we leftists are constantly told to be careful of the delicate feefees of MAGAloons, but the instructions are never reciprocal.

duncan cairncross said...

The problem is that if you believe that we (humans) have made no progress then its difficult to keep the pressure on to make MORE progress

A large segment on the left appears to believe that we are NOT making progress - this makes them a BARRIER to progress

As an engineer working on improving the manufacturing process this is very familiar

When you make an improvement on the assembly line it takes about a month before everybody thinks "we have always done it that way" - even the team that put the improvements in place!

When budget time comes the attitude is "why give you some funds when there has not been significant improvements"

We did make MASSIVE improvements - doubling output per worker in seven years

But it felt like no progress!

Pinker is one of the ones who recognizes that we HAVE made a difference and that the sensible thing to do is to continue to fight at making things better

Robert said...

Those activist 25-year-olds of today don't really understand what things were like in 1965, and mostly don't really grasp how much has changed in the last fifty years. How could they? They didn't experience it.

That seems to be a failure mode of our brains — if we don't experience it, it isn't really real. (With the exception of children, who at certain ages accept everything they're told as real.)

I don't think it's a coincidence that we got Reaganism, supply-side economics, neoconservatism, repeal of Glass-Steagall, etc as the generation that personally experienced the Depression lost influence and died out.

Jane Jacobs discusses this (in more detail and with better reasoning) in her book Dark Age Ahead.

NoOne said...

@Daniel Duffy: You mentioned Krystal and Saagar. I really like The Realignment podcast (https://the-realignment.simplecast.com/ hosted by Marshall Kosloff and Saagar Enjeti) and think it's the best conservative (and millennial) podcast out there. And the treatment of the Afghanistan pullout is fantastic. They had retired General Dan Bolger on and the discussion is superb.

David Brin said...

Sorry. We had house guests. lively discussion.

1) “The problem is that if you believe that we (humans) have made no progress then its difficult to keep the pressure on to make MORE progress…”

Yes. But many on the left take exactly the attitude that admitting past progress DOES reduce pressure to do more.

VASTLY better is to say “liberalism” wrought more justice and productivity and happiness than all other systems combined… SO BUY MORE BECAUSE IT WORKS. The fact that that is not the central sales pitch is proof that the left is insane.

2). I have seldom seen a person writhe so desperately to claim “I never said that” then double down on exactly that thing, as Greg Byshenk has done with his (I repeat) utter, utter lie that those who question woke-bully tactics are telling them to not be active or vigorous. It is a lie. It is a total lie and wriggling and writhing doesn’t change that.

Yes, Maher exaggerated with "the thing that you can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War”… So? he’s a comedian. But in fact that is EXACTLY how many PC cops feel! I know many of them. I have kids in college and I spent decades at universities and EXACTLY that meme is rife.

And yes, it is legitimate to criticize sanctimony junkies for the insane TACTIC of pissing in the faces of allies. That is a bad tactic that defeats us as we are on the verge of defeating a raging insane confederacy that TOGETHER WE OUTNUMBER.

David Brin said...

3. “And this, I think, is overstated. Yes, some moderates share the same goals as progressives. But there are also many who -- so far as anyone can see -- do not.”

Again, you are massively, massively delusional or lying. You so badly need to answer the challenges I offer here:
http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2019/08/five-devastating-rebuttals-to-use-with.html

If we were to accomplish just the BASIC list of things all democrats share as goals, lefties would then be standing upon a vastly improved landscape with more voter empowerment, better-off kids, cleaner environment, more police accountability and a myriad other things that would then put them in a position to ask - with more power- for more. The fact that this is not blatantly obvious is a certain litmus of effective insanity.

Greg B. Go through that list and TELL US NOW which of the things on the basic list large numbers ofg moderate liberals oppose. Come on man, stand up and look the list in the eye and tell us that much! Instead of repeating Kremlin generated lies meant to split and wreck our coalition.

Larry Hart said...

Der Oger:

"You're just pissed about the beating they gave your Wagnerian sociopaths in 1945."

Yeah, whenever I read something from him, I cannot help but imagining a Reichsbürger stepping up on a soapbox to speak to his subjects


Treebeard has often expressed admiration for the religious fanaticism of Wagnerian fantasists, while I have a particular loathing for Nazis which goes beyond mere dislike of the right in general. In any case, I'm glad you don't take my anti-Nazi comments as offensive to a modern day German.

* * *

Dr Brin:

Yes, Maher exaggerated with "the thing that you can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War”… So? he’s a comedian. But in fact that is EXACTLY how many PC cops feel! I know many of them. I have kids in college and I spent decades at universities and EXACTLY that meme is rife.


Paradoctor:

Maher's a mess. He's often right, and often wrong. For instance he's anti-vax.


I have been an enthusiastic fan of Maher's, but he does have his moments where I'm left going WTF? His rehabilitation tours for Kellyanne Conway and Anne Coulter for example. And his call for civility in the "I'm glad he's dead" comments when Rush Limbaugh died (after he made his own "I'm glad he's dead" monologue for David Koch). And the time he had (I'm pretty sure it was) Judge Judy on the show doing something like a half-hour informercial for Bloomberg as a presidential candidate was just...weird.

He's particularly annoying on the vaccination thing, because he seems to be incredibly frustrated that there are still restrictions on his live shows. Strictly speaking, he's not anti-vax, but he thinks that once someone is vaccinated, they should not wear masks or take any further precautions. Before the latest re-surge in California, he actually berated vaccinated people who continued to wear masks in any circumstances as "not following the science."

On the dorm vs antebellum south thing, though, I think I'm the one who first posted that line of his on this blog, and I'm in complete agreement with him. My daughter's generation has it so good that they don't know how good they have it. I don't mean that as a bad thing, or as a dig at the youngsters. I just want them to have enough appreciation of that fact that they use their powers for good rather than feeling "oppressed" by the smallest of obstacles. If they don't save America, no one will.

David Brin said...

Don Gisselbeck said...
"It is very annoying that we leftists are constantly told to be careful of the delicate feefees of MAGAloons, but the instructions are never reciprocal."

Please back this up by showing when any moderate liberal ever said that. Have you ever seen ANYONE eviscerate MAGAheads more thoroughly than I do?

Dig it, man. Making everything about 'feelings' is playing their game. It helps them "own the libs." Trigger-warnings andf all that bullshit makes us look tender and so precious and reactive. Not at all like Union soldiers who marched ahead through mud and dysintery and bullets to defeat the same vile enemy 'cause.'

Don Gisselbeck said...

Hillary Clinton's loss was blamed on "basket of deplorables" by an NPR commentator just a few days ago. The latest episode of The Nomiki Show was an extensive discussion of how respectfully we should treat science deniers. What I react to is the lack of reciprocity. A scientist saying something stupid about automobiles to a MAGAloon auto mechanic certainly wouldn't get any reapect.

TCB said...

Dr. Brin, it's not moderate liberals like you who tell leftists "to be careful of the delicate feefees of MAGAloons, but the instructions are never reciprocal." And in fairness to Don Gisselbeck, he *did not specify moderate leftists here*.

Major swaths of the corporate media do in fact play this game, including a lot of allegedly liberal media. I say allegedly because, I mean, come on... look at the hawks at NYT who helped the Bush crew sell the Iraq invasion... look at NPR, even, giving air time to people like John Bolton even now, to flap his mustache about what a mistake it is to pull out of Afghanistan... and I sure didn't hear Michael Moore get equal time to rebut Bolton, even though Michael Moore was right all along and the conservatives were wrong the whole time.

The major media, at this point, ought to be denouncing Trump as a traitor as with one voice... and his inner circle, and his followers who invaded the halls of Congress. But no.

I went into this new year assuming that we would know by the end of summer whether the Republic could be saved without a hot civil war. The signs are very, very bad. The GOP/Manchin/Sinema axis have indeed stalled most of the Democratic/democratic agenda. The FBI and Justice still look to be dragging their feet and letting fascists thumb their noses at rule of law. The climate is in free fall. Nuclear war is not inconceivable. At this point the only good news is, ironically, bad news: bad news, that covid is still killing lots of Americans. Good news, that it is killing a lot of conservative nutjobs who refused vaccines. Perhaps that will change some election results in the years to come. And perhaps we still have time to make good decisions, over the objections of the fascists.

John Brown's body lies a'mouldering in the grave.

gregory byshenk said...

David wrote
Yes, Maher exaggerated with "the thing that you can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War”… So? he’s a comedian. But in fact that is EXACTLY how many PC cops feel! I know many of them. I have kids in college and I spent decades at universities and EXACTLY that meme is rife.

David, you cannot have it both ways. It cannot be both that it is an "exaggeration" and just a joke, and that it is actually ("EXACTLY") true.

As for "the BASIC list of things all democrats share as goals", you do not even mention the point that I made: if the Democrats cannot all agree that voting rights are important enough to protect, then I say there is a problem. Do you disagree? In addition, there are a number of things on your list
of basic goals that all Democrats plainly do not agree with - at least not sufficiently to support with enabling legislation. Note that "yes, but only with bipartisan support" means "no", given the makeup of the current Republican party. That is lip service, not actual support.

TCB said...

Adding to my previous comment, one area where we are ALL told to "be careful of the delicate feefees of the MAGAloons" is religion. The new American fascism is a marriage of corporate money, white supremacy, and (mostly Evangelical) RELIGION.

Sure, you can have tyranny without religion (lookin' at you, China) but in most of the world the authoritarians are waving one ancient religious text or another, and their views are accorded knee-jerk privilege. Diderot was right: kings, priests, entrails.

Robert said...

We did make MASSIVE improvements - doubling output per worker in seven years

Which, quite naturally, led to workers wages increasing by a similar amount…


But it felt like no progress!

Perchance because the rewards of that increase in output were captured by some other entity in the organization?

Robert said...

Good news, that it is killing a lot of conservative nutjobs who refused vaccines. Perhaps that will change some election results in the years to come.

As I understand it, your electoral map is redistricted every decade after a census? And you've just had a census? If so, even massive die-off is unlikely to change things quickly enough.

Also, your system already allows underpopulated areas undue influence in the Senate so unless you entirely depopulate the red states the sole surviving voter will vote republican as they always do…

Robert said...

Hillary Clinton's loss was blamed on "basket of deplorables" by an NPR commentator just a few days ago. The latest episode of The Nomiki Show was an extensive discussion of how respectfully we should treat science deniers.

A decade after 9/11 the head of Homeland f^&%&% Security was publicly blaming lax Canadian border controls for allowing the hijackers into America (as were several senators). She was reported straight, with no one apparently fact-checking her.

None of the hijackers entered America from Canada.

Once a slur has entered the public narrative, it seems nearly impossible to eradicate.

Larry Hart said...

TCB:

Dr. Brin, it's not moderate liberals like you who tell leftists "to be careful of the delicate feefees of MAGAloons, but the instructions are never reciprocal." And in fairness to Don Gisselbeck, he *did not specify moderate leftists here*.

Major swaths of the corporate media do in fact play this game, including a lot of allegedly liberal media.


I'll second this one ("third" really since Don Gisselbeck went first). We liberals don't hear the admonishment to be respectful of MAGAts' feelings from other liberals, but from the mainstream media and mainstream politicians at large. How many tv news interviews with red-hatted Trump voters in roadside diners do we need to sit through? How many times do we have to be told that "You have to be running for something, not just against something," and "You can't insult your way to victory," is the reason why Trump insulted his way to victory by running against liberals?


I say allegedly because, I mean, come on... look at the hawks at NYT who helped the Bush crew sell the Iraq invasion... look at NPR, even, giving air time to people like John Bolton even now, to flap his mustache about what a mistake it is to pull out of Afghanistan... and I sure didn't hear Michael Moore get equal time to rebut Bolton, even though Michael Moore was right all along and the conservatives were wrong the whole time.


The "liberal media" is a holdover myth from the days of Walter Kronkite, back when television and newspaper news divisions were rated on the quality of their reporting rather than on the market share of ad revenue they brought in. Today, there are two types* of major media--right wing and corporate**. If you think CNN or MSNBC are "liberal", just remember where Glenn Beck got his start, or where Joe Scarborough still is, or where Phil Donohue was fired for opposing the Iraq war. The mainstream outlets are driven not by any ideology so much as the will of their corporate masters.

* Channeling The Blues Brothers, "We have both kinds. Country and western!"

** No doubt on account of (Karl Rove? Grover Norquist?)'s un-ironic observation that "Liberal journalists are journalists first and liberals second. Conservative journalists are conservatives first and journalists second."

David Brin said...

am done with Greg B. The following "Have you stopped beating your wife? " utter bullshit Takes the cake:

": if the Democrats cannot all agree that voting rights are important enough to protect, then I say there is a problem."

You utterly dishonest person! That sentence so fizzes with everything that is ruinous about you as an "ally" that I now realize we have no hope. You WILL do what you have always done.

Come back when you realize how insanely unjust that sentence was and when you are willing to do the one thing I asked.... go through my list of shared goals and tell us which ones moderate "DNC democrats" (underJaime Harrison and Stacey Abrams) oppose. You... are... an incredible liar.

Larry Hart said...

Robert:

Also, your system already allows underpopulated areas undue influence in the Senate so unless you entirely depopulate the red states the sole surviving voter will vote republican as they always do…


I actually think you're right.

But it is worth considering that in the age of plentiful vaccines, COVID is not killing people by purely random chance. Republicans in red states are self-selecting for death. So it is not inconceivable that (say) Alabama goes Democratic because Republicans are willingly Rapturing themselves*. Texas and Florida even more so.

* It occurs to me belatedly that, long before COVID, we were talking about an increase in "deaths of despair" among aging rural white men. In that context, deaths due to mask-denial and vaccine-denial may not be as ironic as it first seems. It might be a method by which the victims commit a form of suicide, while getting one last lick in at the libs (and taking some of us with them). Anti-vax as suicide bombing.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

am done with Greg B. The following "Have you stopped beating your wife? " utter bullshit Takes the cake:

": if the Democrats cannot all agree that voting rights are important enough to protect, then I say there is a problem."


I'm not sure he's saying what you think he's saying.

I think you're reading, "Since Democrats won't pass voting rights legislation, they're no better than Republicans, so I won't vote for Democrats."

He might be saying something more like, "Unless Democrats really decide to protect voting rights, we've already lost the battle for the future."


That sentence so fizzes with everything that is ruinous about you as an "ally" that I now realize we have no hope. You WILL do what you have always done.


This seems to be a reaction to my first interpretation (above). Under the second interpretation, he's agreeing with your pessimistic assessment that we have no hope--not causing that assessment to come true.

I have to say I'm seeing signs that make me agree with that second assessment. For example, your own California Democrats seem complacent enough about the upcoming recall election that California might soon be run by a clone of DeSantis/Abbott. And if anything untoward were to happen to 150-year-old Dianne Feinstein, there goes the Senate. And yet, Dems seem to be taking the "Why should I bother to vote? They're all the same anyway," attitude.

Laurence said...

I also want to be the first to congratulate the men of the Taliban for their great victory, for defending their faith, honor, lands and way of life against imperial progressivism, for defeating and humiliating the entire imperial system of NGOs, technocrats and cultural engineers who attempted to transform Afghanistan into a subservient copy of the imperial core.

Men armed and trained by Pakistan, imposing a Saudi-derived version of Islam on the people of Afganistan, propped up by foreign benfactors you mean? The Taliban aren't proof that foreigners can't conquer Afghanistan, they are proof that they can

Native American said...

D.Brin


Don't be so full of yourself.
I just scimmed it enough for my eyes to catch some keywords.
Well, more like for my nose to feel same stench.

Kinestesis, you know.

Your (dis)intellectual outbutsts keep staying without merit.
While, at the same time. Some other people here. Can produce some healthy brain byproducts.

Like this
" A scientist saying something stupid about automobiles to a MAGAloon auto mechanic certainly wouldn't get any reapect. "

Yes. Exactly!

That "scente-ists" cannot explain even basic shit about their own stuff, way too often.
Trying to blurr it with "smart" wording, while demostrating attitude "believe me, I'm scente-ist", way too often.
Being just an empty acadenia buffons, way too often.

Cauliflouver is nothing but cabbidge... with colledge education. Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain



D.Cairncross

Doubling in a terms of biology -- it's just nothing. It means you barely survuved.
Ordinary strategy is to make 1000x, billions times more.
And we are... biological creatures still.


Paradoctor

Go to the proper doctor to check your sense of smell. Because your nose fails you with false-positives and false-negatives as well.


L.Harm
"un-ironic observation that "Liberal journalists are journalists first and liberals second. Conservative journalists are conservatives first and journalists second.""

That's just an example of Objectivation Bias.
Means, we tend to treat OURSELF only as ones with inner thoughts and motives,
while other people as just a puppets which destined to do same things again and again, just because they created that way.

scidata said...

I've harped enough on scientist stooges who don't RESIGN, refreshing to see one who does:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/david-fisman-resignation-covid-science-table-ontario-1.6149961

David Brin said...

In pure rebuttal of the aggressively self-named Native American's accusation that I "scimmed" (sic), I slogged past the fizzinf pyrotechtic lying and craziness of the first half to reach the 2nd half of (his?) screed, which at least contained some assertions that weren't utter masturbation. And probably the reason the spam filter passed (him?) through.

Alas, I don't see that posting here. Did (he?) comment on a previous posting? After the "onward" I seldom go back.

Larry Hart said...

@Sergei,

It was a conservative mouthpiece himself who made that statement about conservative and liberal journalists. And he was saying it as a good thing about conservatives.

You probably didn't get all that from the news coverage in your country. The kerosene television is not a very efficient device.

Robert said...

Note for Americans: David Fisman is an epidemiologist who's been consistently right about pandemic projections. He was one of the first Ontario Science Table members to break the implicit bargain they make and talk directly to the public rather than letting politicians and political appointees interpret the scientific results to the public.

The more I look at pandemic policies and results, the more I wish people actuall read Adam Smith:

“The interest of [businessmen] is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ... ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined ... with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men ... who have generally an interest to deceive and even oppress the public”

David Brin said...

Ah, there he is. I apologize... for my initial impression that the 2nd hald was cogent. Upon closer reading, I see that it is insane turtles all the way down.

N.A lives on some weird planet where the world's top scientists DON'T compete with each other avidly to get on PBS shows and podcasts eagerly explaining to the layman every concept at the farthest fringe of discovery, including black holes and bangs and stringsand multiverses. That silly plaint is more than enough to discredit (him?)

LH thanks for trying hard to see the best possible interpretation of GB's face-pissing at allies. It doesn't wash, alas. ALL dems know that the GQP cheats and that hurts - if nothing else - there chance to hold and enhance power. All of them want to end gerrymandering (except state assembly members in Maryland and Illinois who think they need it, and Obama is arm-twisting them hard. Even from a cynical perspective, all dems want end to voter suppression. And nearly all denounce Supply Side insanitl and want it to end, so funds are freed for more rooseveltean things.

FIND ME the dems who don't. Now. Show it now, Greg.

Are Manchen and Sinema problems? Yes they are. Are lefties fools for failing to grasp that WE HAVE DEMOCRATIC SERNATORS FROM WEST VIGINIA AND ARIZONA AND GEORGIA. And finding out how that miracle happened... and working with them to keep it... might be worth some calm discussion of agile and varied tactics, instead of screeching at them. Iassure you that AOC and Bernie and Liz and Joe are TALKING to Manchin and trying to strategize maneuvers with them.

But no, the only effect these fools allow to happen, from making Jaime Harrison DNC chair and Stacey Abrams top political tactician of the Democratic Party and Manchin enabling Schumer to appoint every committee chair in the Senate so a dozen needed investigations can go forward... the only thing they've changed is a FEW of them have adapted to drop the "DNC" from their howling rants.

Larry Hart said...

Republican bans of common sense anti-COVID measures are undermining respect for the rule of law. When forced between following the law and survival, people are learning (correctly in my view) to apply the law as selectively as necessary. That's probably a cultural change which is not easy to turn back from.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/23/opinion/covid-masks-students.html

Meanwhile, Tennessee’s two largest school districts — Metro Nashville Public Schools and Shelby County Schools — continue to enforce their mask mandates in defiance of the governor’s executive order, and Nashville’s district attorney, Glenn Funk, has said that he “will not prosecute school officials or teachers for keeping children safe.” Some Tennessee pastors are encouraging other districts to defy the ban, too: “I’m well aware of what we are asking,” the Rev. Lillian Lammers told The Tennessean’s Brett Kelman. “There were many times in the Bible where Jesus broke the law in order to feed people or care for people, as a way of teaching others that sometimes the law can get in the way of doing what is right.”

That message of civil disobedience seems to be resonating across the South.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

All of them [Democrats] want to end gerrymandering (except state assembly members in Maryland and Illinois who think they need it,


Well, as an Illinois Democrat, I do want to end gerrymandering, but not by unilateral disarmament. I think it actually helps our case to have a few Dem-gerrymandered states for Republicans to complain about, so we can say "We'll admit it's a bad way to govern and stop doing it in our 2 states as soon as you do so in yours." If, as you like to recommend, we make gerrymandering into a purely-Republican crime, their attitude will be, "Fine with us."

The difference between the parties is not that one party never abuses power, but that one party is amenable to eliminating forms of abuse if everybody has to eliminate them, whereas the other party sees abuse of power as part of their essential identity.

scidata said...

Robert: talk directly to the public rather than letting politicians and political appointees interpret the scientific results to the public

Here I stand. I can do no other.

Where would we be if even just a few more scientists spoke up?
Instead of just modelling new scarves every day, I wish she'd grabbed the mic during that bizarre 'almost like a cleaning' moment and blurted out, "That's absolutely insane, you brain-wormed bag of swamp gas. I'm outta here. SCIENCE! [mic drop]"

David Brin said...

Scarf lady has paid for her cowardice.

LH when CA ended gerrymandering DP control went UP! We tried that 'trade" approach and it failed. Cheating should be blatantly a Republican trait.

gregory byshenk said...

You are free to ignore me, David, but I don't see this as a "beating your wife" question. It seems to me a basic logical problem: either the statement that what students "can't see is that your dorm in 2021 is better than the south before the Civil War" is "EXACTLY" true, or it is an "exaggeration" for comic effect - but it cannot be both. If it is exactly correct, then it is not an exaggeration, and vice versa.

For what it's worth, I have no objection to your "list". I think that it is something that most progressives would happily support. But that isn't the issue, here. The issue is that combination of taking cheap shots at progressives and then saying: "hey, aren't we all on the same side?" If moderates want to build bridges with progressives, then this is the sort of thing that should be avoided. (To reiterate: criticism is reasonable, but this sort of 'progressives are stupid' comment is decidedly unhelpful, if the goal is building alliances.)

Treebeard said...

Speaking of civil disobedience, I’ve begun my own small civil disobedience campaign here in my town. When I go to stores I simply ignore the signs out front saying “masks required”, because it’s clear to me that masks are not about a virus, against which they are next to useless, but about ritual obedience. I’ve noticed that about 20% of people are doing the same. So far there have been no consequences.

It’s hilarious living in such a farcical society, where a large fraction of the population disbelieves and actively resists the propaganda of its elites. There’s something stone age about it, like when the taboos and curses of the ruling shamans no longer produce the desired effects, and their spell is soon broken. I wonder if this is how things felt in the late USSR, maybe around the time they withdrew from Afghanistan (which to be fair they at least did in a dignified and orderly fashion), when a senile, out of touch ruling class went through the rituals of authority while their actual authority, which is metaphysical, evaporated. In any case, I’m enjoying exercising my autonomy and right to rebel against authoritarians and their bogus magic in the great American tradition.

David Brin said...

Treebeard's position is not surprising since

1- he is a rude jerk

2- his respect for the property rights of store-owners is a farce and as hypocritical as all else.

3- But above all, he illustrates that romantics like confederates, monarchists, Nazis and Stalinists are obsessed with symbolism... as I related in dissecting their obsession with controlling naval ship names. It is symbolism all the way down.

To us the very idea that some symbolic compromise with public health measures would MIND WARP people into being obedient drones is an assertion of such blithering craziness that it's hard to believe we're members of the same species!

Seriously man... maybe YOU have such a fragile sense of your own freedom. I don't. No one else here does. It's like Christians proclaiming that ONLY their fear of divine punishment stops them from rampages of rape and murder...

...what a deeply disturbing revelation about themselves. Entirely consistent with their treason, though.

--

GB you are not even worth my time. You are doing EXACTLY what the mad right does. To deny climate change they'll pick on ONE exaggeration and rail that it discredits the whole thing.

BET ME NOW that I can't counter with one hundred woke-exaggerations for every one by Maher that you rail about. EVERY damned 'trigger warning" bullying on campus is just like Treebeard screaming "a mask will make me a freedom-hating zombie."

God save us from you symbolism fetishists.

Meanwhile you have not answered a single one of my PRACTICAL REFORM CHALLENGES about shared goals at http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2019/08/five-devastating-rebuttals-to-use-with.html

And there is a reason you haven't. It is because it will prove that you PC police are the aggressors pissing in the faces of the allies you need, in order to get anything done.

STop... pissing... in... the... faces... of... your... allies. It is stoopid. "DNC Democrats" are not your enemies. You could work with them. You are EXACTLY like Orwell describes the left always being, in HOMAGE TO CATALONIA. And you will betray us again, in 2022.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

Scarf lady has paid for her cowardice.


I'm sure I'm supposed to know, but the scarf reference is going over my head. A hint, please?


LH when CA ended gerrymandering DP control went UP! We tried that 'trade" approach and it failed. Cheating should be blatantly a Republican trait.


And if Illinois ever does eliminate gerrymandering, I'll try to console myself with that knowledge. But in the meantime, I want the Republicans to have something to complain about, so that their complaints about Illinois are in such visible contrast to their complete acceptance of the practice in so many other states. I want to be able to say, "Hey, we brought the issue to the supreme court, and we lost. So what can we do?"

Larry Hart said...

Treebeard:

When I go to stores I simply ignore the signs out front saying “masks required”, because it’s clear to me that masks are not about a virus, against which they are next to useless, but about ritual obedience. I’ve noticed that about 20% of people are doing the same. So far there have been no consequences.

Masks are more about preventing you from spreading COVID to others than it is about keeping the mask-wearer from getting the disease. It's no surprise that you don't give a crap about others.

There are no consequences because the reasonable people won't yet resort to threats or violence against your kind. Only you Holnists will threaten or physically attack people for taking proper precautions which have become a symbol of non-Republican identity. You'd better hope to your Teutonic gods that that doesn't change in the near future, because we're learning to hate you for your "keep COVID alive" idiocy.

If masks are useless against spread of disease, then I wonder why I have only had a single, mild cold in the entire period since March 2020, whereas I used to get one cold or flu just about every month. The thing is, I intend to keep up the handwashing regimen and maybe even wear masks in crowds even after COVID is gone, because those things work so well against contagious diseases in general.

But hey, knock yourself out (of the gene pool), because I am all out of fucks to give if you and your fellow assholes get hospitalized or die.

Alan Brooks said...

And Trump said that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan to “keep terrorists out of Russia.”
Which is like saying that the Nazis invaded Poland to keep Polish terrorists out of Germany. Can you imagine if any other president had made a statement such as that? The Teflon Donald can say what he wants and get away with it.

Daniel Duffy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TCB said...

By the way, if Native American is actually a member of any First Nation, I am a 1962 Studebaker Avanti.

Larry Hart said...

So southerners are driven in a fit of "That's all I can stands. I can't stands no more!" to defy their insane leaders in order to protect their lives and their childrens' lives. And Treebeard equates this with a tantrum against common sense measures meant to protect others from him, because true patriotism means defying the authorities (unless those authorities are Nazis, in which case you vill obey, und you will like it!

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/23/opinion/covid-masks-students.html

Look at a map of the worst Covid hot spots around the country, and you will see that the region getting most pummeled by this virus is, not coincidentally, the same one that is governed primarily by Republicans. Those supermajorities are why there has always been plenty of perfidy to go around down here, but this time the Republicans in charge have gone too far. People have finally stopped waiting for their leaders to lead and are taking matters into their own hands.

Our lives and our children’s lives are on the line.

duncan cairncross said...

Robert

I agree 100% about the workers (and engineers) not sharing the bounty of their own work

But in my experience when people work for a company they identify with that company and they work to improve that company
(This does not apply to the senior managers and executives - they only work for themselves)
So when they did not see the improvements it was NOT related to their own individual gain

David Brin said...

Of course there's a 4th aspect to Treebeard's flouncy declaration he plans to go pant heavily on neighbors in stores where the proprietors exercised their right to restrict entry based on clothing and behavior... that 4th aspect is the ent's pathetic pretense at COURAGE!

Un in the face of what consequences? The only imbeciles screaming and using physical violence are his fellow rightist nut jobs. Some courage, getting nasty at neighbors, knowing they'll be the adults and turn away.

Such parents he must have had.

Tim H. said...

Something to bear in mind about masks, while they may be crap at stopping a virus, they're great at slowing and stopping the water droplets that the virus hitches a ride with*. Reduces the chances of one of those droplets impacting mucous membranes and it's viruses colonizing another body. Seems to work well against influenza and colds also.

*Like a chicane in motor racing.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

Of course there's a 4th aspect to Treebeard's flouncy declaration he plans to go pant heavily on neighbors in stores where the proprietors exercised their right to restrict entry based on clothing and behavior...


The thing is, business owners aren't just acting "woke" for the thrill of it. Mask mandates and vaccination requirements for employees are an attempt to let customers know that the business is an acceptably safe place for them to patronize. When treasonous Republican governors forbid such measures, or when assholes like Treebeard flagrantly violate them, they create a situation where reasonable customers will stay away.


that 4th aspect is the ent's pathetic pretense at COURAGE!

Un in the face of what consequences? The only imbeciles screaming and using physical violence are his fellow rightist nut jobs. Some courage, getting nasty at neighbors, knowing they'll be the adults and turn away.


That was my point above as well. At the moment the only ones who risk violence or death are the ones in favor of masks and vaccines. That might not be a permanent condition, though. Those who follow the recommendations to try to contain the pandemic only to see their best efforts undone by nonsense-spouting cultists are getting increasingly angry. You wouldn't like us when we're angry.

Tim H:

Something to bear in mind about masks, while they may be crap at stopping a virus, they're great at slowing and stopping the water droplets that the virus hitches a ride with. Reduces the chances of one of those droplets impacting mucous membranes and it's viruses colonizing another body. Seems to work well against influenza and colds also.


I hold that truth to be self-evident, based on personal experience. Measures taken to reduce exposure to COVID have also prevented exposure to other contagions. Attempts to argue that such measures are ineffective are arguing against observed reality. Like those old proofs that bumblebees can't really fly.

TCB said...

“The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences.” - Winston Churchill

When the consequences do come, come they will, to the brim and overflowing.

Paradoctor said...

Larry Hart:
No shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service. But suppose some wooden-headed ent walks in without shoes, shirt, or mask? What recourse does the proprietor have? Can he call the cops? May he and some volunteer customers eject the plague rat from the premises?

About "Native American": my nose tells me that he isn't First Nations, he's a Nativist. But my nose may be wrong, due to the pong wafting off his word salad.

gregory byshenk said...

David, please read what I am actually writing. I have responded to your list of shared goals - and said that it is good and something that (I think) the vast majority of progressives would agree with.

Think of this as about "tactics", if you will. Leaving Maher himself aside - and also any presumably unreachable loonies - you seem to want to encourage progressives to join with "moderate liberals" to support those "shared goals". Do you think that it helps or hurts in achieving this end to be abusive and dismissive toward progressives?

GMT -8 said...

Dr. Brin wrote: "LH when CA ended gerrymandering DP control went UP! We tried that 'trade" approach and it failed. Cheating should be blatantly a Republican trait."

That reminded me of this story from ProPublica from 2011.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-democrats-fooled-californias-redistricting-commission

I don't live in CA so I don't know how much of that report is true. But I will be visiting this fall.

Native American said...

TCB


Of course, of course. Because that thing you call tribalism.
And never allowed it to rise to anything resembling Sovereign State of the (respective) Nation.
So now you laugh at it, gleefully "See. See. How insufferable those N.A. is... they don't have thier Nation even. What a lowlife.". Arrgh!



D. Cairncross


"I agree 100% about the workers (and engineers) not sharing the bounty of their own work"

Yes. Because they trade it for a safety of being paid in any case.
If they'd be willing to take part of the risk, they'd be not workers, but partners.
But, go find such worker.



G.Byshenk


You are fooling yourself that people who gone all-out political,
can be swayed with something so prim and proper as old good beardy greeks invention - logic.
Tertium Non Datur, naah, meh didn't hear bout it.

Go learn logic of emotions. And this blog can be a good learning material.



L.Harm


"I wonder why I have only had a single, mild cold in the entire period since March 2020, whereas I used to get one cold or flu just about every month."

Yes, go ask yourself - why I was so s... carefree? About my own health.
For all my life till this year.
Tribal bechavior? Nobody wearing masks - so do I. Everybody wearing masks - so do I.
Do I have own mind and voltion? Dunno. What for?


And.
Go to Google and ask about Objectivation Bias.
I'll help you. That is line "google.com" you must type into that place in your brawser where gibberish words intermangled with many "." and "/" reside. And push Enter.
And then type-in "objectivation bias" into that new place that will appear.
And push Enter again.

Or you are using kerosene internet where that Wonder of Nowadays not accessible?
You have my condolences, then.



D.Brn

"N.A lives on some weird planet where the world's top scientists DON'T compete"


Yes. They do not compete.
Because they are either in one train of this or that discipline, or universitu, or laboratory. Accomplices so to say.
Or they are residents of different branches. With own sinecuras.
But all the time eating from common pot of rich state and private funding.
So, only idiots would compete. On public. Anmd they are not idiots.


But. Who was talking about top scientists? Who reside in their Ivory Towers. And have no need to talk to the public.

That was said about majority of "scente-ists".
About thar who only aspairing to be.
Trying to rub some fame and honor of "being scente-ist".
Or even some false/pseudo-scientists.
Some pundits trying to pose as knowledgible "listen to me, I know science".
Do You Really Trying to say that nothing like this exist in This Exactly Mundane World
Then that is U A one who reside in your own miraclous la-la-land. Alongside with pinky elephants and other mythical creatures.

Robert said...

(This does not apply to the senior managers and executives - they only work for themselves)
So when they did not see the improvements it was NOT related to their own individual gain


You said it took seven years. You're ignoring two key points:

1) There is a lot more churn at upper management than down below. So each individual manager likely only saw a small part of the gain in a position before moving on, and their baseline is what productivity was when they started their position — they get no credit (or reward) for what happens before or after their time in the position, only the improvement while they hold it*.

2) The horizon for most publicly-traded companies is the next quarter (when posted results affect stock prices, and upper management bonuses). "Long-range" planning is a year or two out.**



*And in my experience, that's often caused by the chap who previously held the position (or blind luck). A skill many upper engineering managers have is identifying a department that has made improvements and taking it over just as those improvements show results, thereby getting the credit for them.

**It is fashionable to decry elected officials and their constant focus on the next election, but elected officials have a longer horizon than most businessmen, who are supposedly models for government.

Robert said...

When I go to stores I simply ignore the signs out front saying “masks required”, because it’s clear to me that masks are not about a virus, against which they are next to useless, but about ritual obedience. I’ve noticed that about 20% of people are doing the same. So far there have been no consequences.

Um, how do you know? Given that the benefit of masks is mostly other people, unless you're keeping tabs on everyone and tracking infections for everyone who visited those stores you have no idea what the consequences are.

Or maybe you mean consequences to you personally? Like getting punched because someone disagrees with you? Or having a demonstration with bullhorns threatening violence around your favourite patio because the protesters disagree with the owner's decision to require vaccines and masks for workers and customers? Those consequences are happening only to people taking precautions, because your side is the one that has decided it has a right to bully people into subservience.

Robert said...

I hold that truth to be self-evident, based on personal experience. Measures taken to reduce exposure to COVID have also prevented exposure to other contagions. Attempts to argue that such measures are ineffective are arguing against observed reality. Like those old proofs that bumblebees can't really fly.

Just a nit-pick, but that proof that bumblebees can't fly was done using the principles of aviation as understood at the time, and actually done as a proof that those principles were incomplete and there was more to discover. I find it frustrating that science at its finest — testing the limits of existing knowledge and discovering new frontiers — keeps being used as a jab against smarty-pants professors who know less than they think they do.

Robert said...

The crazies aren't confined to America, unfortunately.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/08/23/they-scream-at-me-the-staff-and-our-diners-for-hours-owner-jen-agg-calls-out-the-city-province-for-not-halting-anti-vaccine-protests-at-her-restaurants.html

I'm certain treebeard and his ilk are proud of acting like this, imagining that they are heroically saving themselves from tyranny.

Interestingly, the same folk who get upset about wearing a small square of cloth are absolutely willing to enforce clothing restrictions against women. It's not about logic, it's about control — their control — and they're willing to use violence — implicit or explicit — to get their way.

Dennis M Davidson said...

@Larry Hart
Scarf Lady Explained

Dr. Deborah Birx was the White House coronavirus response coordinator under Trump. When Trump held his coronavirus press conferences usually Dr. Birx was in attendance and sometimes spoke to the press. She wore a different scarf every day. People noticed. Hence, the moniker “scarf lady”.

There’s more, of course. Dr. Birx was attacked for compromising her scientific principles when she repeatedly failed to explicitly challenge Trump’s nonsense regarding various covid cures (bleach, hydroxychloroquine, etc).

BTW, Dr. Birx has had a long career as a leading HIV/AIDS researcher. Her best work was leading PEPFAR, the United State’s global effort to bring HIV/AIDS meds to millions of people. Appointed by Bush she continued her work under Obama.

Jon S. said...

"Seems to work well against influenza and colds also."

My roommate decided that he could go to the store without a mask, as we're all fully vaccinated. Now he's in the process of recovering from a rather severe head cold, and rethinking his stance.

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

No shoes, no shirt, no mask, no service. But suppose some wooden-headed ent walks in without shoes, shirt, or mask? What recourse does the proprietor have? Can he call the cops? May he and some volunteer customers eject the plague rat from the premises?


Yes, the problem is that the authorities have plenty of will to eject dirty hippies, but in some locations, the cops would be on the side of the anti-vaxxer. Not here in Chicago, I can tell you.

And yes, some school boards are already doing the end-run around Abbott and DeathSantis by making masks part of the school dress code.


About "Native American": my nose tells me that he isn't First Nations, he's a Nativist. But my nose may be wrong, due to the pong wafting off his word salad.


It's pretty darn obvious that English isn't his first language. Plus, I've got one of the simplest names in the world, and he can't even get that right. Like one of my old managers named Bob who had a form letter taped up to his office door. The letter was addressed to "Ob (LastName)". He had scribbled on the letter, "How do you misspell Bob?"

Robert said...

Not directly on topic, but I imagine you'll be saying something about Afghanistan, and the author is a Marine veteran running for the US Senate in Missouri, home of our very worst Republican senator. It all seemed to be very much up your alley.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/served-afghanistan-us-marine-twice-100000389.html


Bob Pfeiffer

GMT -8 said...

I understand the arguments of people who are skeptical of the vaccines and don't want to wear masks. However, I wear masks when they are required and I received the Moderna vaccine in April.

I've gone beyond that. Yesterday I joined a clinical study for the RSV (respiratory syncytial virus) vaccine. Since it is a double blind study, I don't know if I got the vaccine or the placebo. But at 1:20 am I woke up and had a bad case of chills...very similar to the ones I had after my second dose of the Moderna vaccine. So either I got the actual vaccine, or my imagination is giving me one hell of a placebo effect.

So be kind when you go after me for being a conservative voice here.

In a previous thread, someone asked how my contrarian views were tolerated by my local Republican party. I found out 10 days ago, not too well. It seems I've been banished by the local party. It seems that word has gone out that I am not to be hired by any Ohio government agency. Why? I really don't know. I was a Kasich supporter so it is ironic that it is the Kasich people still serving in the DeWine administration who are blackballing me.

Such is life. I will no longer go to party events (which is pretty much the way the things were between 1994 and 2018). Instead I will spend that time with my family and friends.

Larry Hart said...

Sergei:


Yes, go ask yourself - why I was so s... carefree? About my own health.
For all my life till this year.
Tribal bechavior? Nobody wearing masks - so do I. Everybody wearing masks - so do I.
Do I have own mind and voltion? Dunno. What for?


To notice that washing hands and wearing masks actually works.


That is line "google.com" you must type into that place in your brawser where gibberish words intermangled with many "." and "/" reside. And push Enter.


I don't have to type anything in to see gibberish words and symbols are "intermangled". I see them right here.


And then type-in "objectivation bias" into that new place that will appear.


It's not that I misunderstand the term. It's just that you're accusing me of dehumanizing conservative journalists by claiming they're conservatives first and journalists second. But the one who said that--I think it was Grover Norquist, but it might have been Karl Rove instead--was a conservative mouthpiece. And he was praising conservatives, not burying them.


Or you are using kerosene internet where that Wonder of Nowadays not accessible?


I'll help you. Go to google.com and type in "Lyrics 'kerosene record player'"

https://www.lyricsfreak.com/f/frank+zappa/a+little+green+rosetta_20056729.html

Now you see, some places in the Third World it might be difficult to dance to this because
The kerosene record player is not a very efficient device... And a lot of times they run out of, They run out of spunk right in the middle of the chorus...

Larry Hart said...

Robert:

Just a nit-pick, but that proof that bumblebees can't fly was done using the principles of aviation as understood at the time, and actually done as a proof that those principles were incomplete and there was more to discover.


Sorry if that's a pet peeve. I actually thought the bumblebee thing might have been an apocryphal tale. As a metaphor, it served the point I was making, which is "There's no point trying to prove something that can be easily observed to be untrue."


Interestingly, the same folk who get upset about wearing a small square of cloth are absolutely willing to enforce clothing restrictions against women. It's not about logic, it's about control — their control — and they're willing to use violence — implicit or explicit — to get their way.


What would be funny if not so hurtful is that the same people who want to force women to cover up more at the beach also insist that women wearing burqas must dress more provocatively.

Paradoctor said...

When a pro-covid wooden-head refuses protection, in the form of a proven vaccine and an article of face clothing, then though the wooden-head thinks that it is standing tall for freedom, it is really kow-towing to a virus.

Likewise, when a wooden-head says that taking the vaccine is volunteering for a medical experiment, it usually fails to add that catching the virus is also volunteering for a medical experiment. So are you in the vaccine-exposure experiment or the virus-exposure experiment? Volunteer for one experiment or the other; delta removes any third option.

What are the long-term effects of vaccine exposure? Or virus exposure? We don't know yet, covid is still new to us, that's why the two experiments. Results so far: virus exposure can lead, in the long run, to brain fog, lung damage, and heart damage. Vaccine exposure can lead, in the long run, to not getting covid.

Treebeard said...

For the record, here are my official public policy recommendation on covid, based on an advanced multifactor empirical analysis and the input of numerous highly credentialed experts, including squirrels, cats and birds:

Anyone who is highly vulnerable/worried about covid should a) stay home and b) get vaccinated if they wish to. Everyone else can go about their lives as usual. People in the first group can join them whenever they want. I.e. the default is normality, vulnerable people can take extra precautions if they choose to, and no coercion, protesting or bullying is necessary. If you need to go out but you’re afraid of getting covid, wear 5 masks, a hazmat suit or whatever makes you feel safe. Above all, get a healthy lifestyle, spend time outdoors, exercise, eat healthy, smile and don’t stress out about covid, Trump, the Taliban or whatever other memes are parasitizing your brain so your immune system stays strong. Don’t be like our friend paradoctor here calling people “plague rats”, or one of those morbidly obese people on TV with covid saying “I should have got the vaccine”. Also, it may be helpful to remember “memento mori”, realize that the mortality rate of all life is 100%, the world is not under our control, and try to find a little humility.

/End of official recommendations.

Bob Neinast said...

I'd like to challenge a bit the idea that masks only protect other people, not the wearer. (Take this info with as large of a dose of salt as needed--I am no expert, and don't even play one on TV.) From what I understand, the size of the viral load can make a big difference in whether we get sick, or how sick we get (particularly after being vaccinated). And where the original CoVid could transmit with 10 viruses, the delta does so with 1000.

When it gets to your nose (for instance), your body detects them. With a viral load of 10, the body can ramp up quickly enough to repel it. But with 1000, it starts out behind the curve and there is a battle for supremacy before the body throws its full resources behind the attack. (I suspect this is what is happening with the breakthrough cases.)

However, while wearing a mask, even if the mesh isn't theoretically small enough to keep out all the viruses, it can reduce the viral load (just by having some of the virus getting caught on the threads) that makes it through to you. And then your body has a chance to catch up a lot sooner (as per the previous paragraph).

As I said, take with a grain/block of salt.

David Brin said...

GMT I am overjoyed when we see conservatives like you, as signs that the species of sane ones is not entirely extinct. (CT and AZ draw half their power from coils around the spinning in Buckley’s and Goldwater’s graves.)

The Blogger spam filter can be too good. I hate having to dive into the swill can to rescue postings like “Native American’s” which - while hysterical and weird and frantic and barely comprehensible, still fall short of my generous culling bar, which is largely resevred for rug-shitters.

Still I see nothing there that merits actually answering. He is clearly an agent in the mad right’s all-out war against all fact-users in the West and his real name is likely Ivan.

As for the ent’s latest sanctimony-drenched ‘recommendations”… get bent you traitor-jerk. Exercise your right to shit in the city drinking water reservoir.

-
Dr. Birx had a time-honored career and may deserve better than how jistory is treating her. Still, she chose the fraught path of standing next to mad power hoping to "moderate" it. Those who make that choice should seek advice from historians.

-
Nothing better proves that N.A. knows nothing about science or scientists except that he's volcanic with envy, than following my: "N.A lives on some weird planet where the world's top scientists DON'T compete"

With "Yes. They do not compete.
Because they are either in one train of this or that discipline, or universitu, or laboratory. Accomplices so to say.
Or they are residents of different branches. With own sinecuras.
But all the time eating from common pot of rich state and private funding.
So, only idiots would compete. On public. Anmd they are not idiots."

No they aren't idiot. You are.

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

Likewise, when a wooden-head says that taking the vaccine is volunteering for a medical experiment, it usually fails to add that catching the virus is also volunteering for a medical experiment.


Not to mention that the experiment has already been run over a period of months with several million willing participants. The results are in. The vaccines are hardly untested any more.

David Brin said...

gregory byshenk said...David, please read what I am actually writing. I have responded to your list of shared goals - and said that it is good and something that (I think) the vast majority of progressives would agree with.
Think of this as about "tactics", if you will. Leaving Maher himself aside - and also any presumably unreachable loonies - you seem to want to encourage progressives to join with "moderate liberals" to support those "shared goals". Do you think that it helps or hurts in achieving this end to be abusive and dismissive toward progressives?

Fine to all of that except the utterly pathetic and counterfactual claim that it is moderates, focused on pragmatic incrementalism, who have the time and interest to flame at progressives, who spend nearly ALL their time fulminating. No, you don't get to do that role reversal distraction-declaration. I am REGULARLY and PERSONALLY knifed by far-leftie woke-police who desperately seek justifications for reflexively hating a successful ortho straight white male.

I love it when they accuse me of under-representing minorities in my novels, when my first major protagonist was half-African/ half Native American with a severe brain dysfunction, at a time when Ursula LeGuin was barely done having white male prots. A trend I continued all through the 80s and 90s.

"Oh, yeah?" One then segued without paus. "Well what about autistic and non-orthos specturm people!"

Um, EXISTENCE has FIVE varoed autistic characters... and a blurb from Temple Grandin.

I cite all that - and could go on all day - not to preen but to say the attacks are relentless and flood every university campus in America... and give Hannity etc TONS of material to proclaim "See THAT bullshit? Well that represents ALL liberals!" It does FAR more harm than good.

Like screwing us out of Al Franken, who was almost alone in being able to use judo and was likely at the top of Putin's hit list.

We had to endure 80 years of shit from rednecks saying "Just on account of we talk slower, with more "sir" and "ma'am," that means we-uns is far nicer and more moral than you filthy city folks!" Despite Red America (except Utah) being VASTLY more steeped in every turpitude...

...and THAT is EXACTLY what the worst PC police do to their allies, every single day and we are %%$$! SICK of it!

You want to help the farther left? Then help it to break the sick habit of pissing in the faces of allies.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

Nothing better proves that N.A. knows nothing about science or scientists except that he's volcanic with envy, than following my: "N.A lives on some weird planet where the world's top scientists DON'T compete"...


I gather that "scente-ists" is some kind of pun in Russian, but I'm still trying to figure out what it means. Once might have been a simple misspelling, but three times is enemy action.

Larry Hart said...

GMT -5:

In a previous thread, someone asked how my contrarian views were tolerated by my local Republican party. I found out 10 days ago, not too well. It seems I've been banished by the local party. It seems that word has gone out that I am not to be hired by any Ohio government agency. Why? I really don't know.


I think that was me who asked something like "How's that working for you?" when you mentioned questioning some irrational assertions which are now de rigueur to be a Republican in good standing. Point being, you were holding yourself up as an example of why we should not think of all Republicans as being like that, but what you've proven by example is that any Republicans who aren't like that don't get to continue to influence the party for very long. I wonder if you'd consider coming over to the good side, where you've got more friends.

duncan cairncross said...

Robert

In my decades of experience improving manufacturing performance I have not seen a SINGLE good idea or improvement come from the senior management!!

Not ONE!

I do admit I have seen a number of bloody awful ideas coming from the executives and I have spent a fail amount of time trying to stop them

About half of the good ideas come from the shop floor - the other half from the engineers

Robert said...

virus exposure can lead, in the long run, to brain fog, lung damage, and heart damage

Well, the virus targets epithelial cells, which are found in damn-near every organ.

Quoting Charlie Stross here:

"Unsurprising: COVID19 binds ACE2, so plugs into the renin-angiotensin system which modulates blood pressure and lipid storage/obesity regulation. Type II diabetes as a side-effect would be totally peachy, but ... as I said, unsurprising."

"See: The S1 protein of SARS-CoV-2 crosses the blood-brain barrier in mice ( Nat Neurosci. 2021 Mar;24(3):368-378).

But it doesn't really need to cross the blood/brain barrier to fuck up your brain: it disrupts epithelial linings including those of blood vessels, including the mesh of capilliaries which provide perfusion to the brain. Lots of microvascular accidents -- mini-strokes -- do the damage: they trigger an inflammatory response in the immune tissues already present in the brain. (A bit more here.)"

David Brin said...

Well, those companies that retain their original engineering basis... but for every SpaceX there's Kodad, Xerox, Sears...

Moderates gave in to progressives again. Oooh those evil moderates!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2021/08/24/house-democrats-budget-infrastructure/

And this. Oh such eeevil DNC sellouts!
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/24/1030746011/house-passes-john-lewis-voting-rights-act

Robert said...

In my decades of experience improving manufacturing performance I have not seen a SINGLE good idea or improvement come from the senior management!!

And in your decades of experience, who generally gets the credit (and rewards) associated with good ideas?

Robert said...

I'd like to challenge a bit the idea that masks only protect other people, not the wearer.

Not only, but epidemiologically the more significant effect is that you greatly reduce viruses you are spreading to others.

Which is why anti-maskers doing the equivalent of waving their fists in the air and claiming it is everyone else's problem if the fist just happens to hit a nose.

This "not hurting others" mentality is why mask-wearing wasn't an issue in China. My Beijing niece can't understand why people over here won't wear masks because she sees it as them actively trying to hurt other people. (And I'm beginning to think she's right.)

duncan cairncross said...

"And in your decades of experience, who generally gets the credit (and rewards) associated with good ideas?"

Any credit goes to the executives

Any issues get blamed on the engineers

Executives are ALWAYS "me firsters"

Its the way the system works - two engineers - one concentrates on getting the job done the other one concentrates on being promoted
Who gets promoted??

At engineer level most people are "task focused"
- at middle manager level the majority are "task focused"
- at senior manager level a minority are "task focused"
- at executive level almost nobody is "task focused" - they are all "me focused"

gregory byshenk said...

David wrote
Fine to all of that except the utterly pathetic and counterfactual claim that it is moderates, focused on pragmatic incrementalism, who have the time and interest to flame at progressives...

Please note that what I commented on was exactly such a case: you quoting Maher's "flame at progressives".

Again, think of this as about tactics. Take everything you wrote in your last response to me as given. Then what? What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to attract progressives to your position or drive them away?

Yes, many (most?) college students are immature (certainly compared to their professors and such), lack the life experience of their elders, and in many ways ignorant (that's why they are studying, after all). But if you want them to join you, is saying "you are all idiots" (as Maher does) likely to be effective?

That is perhaps the biggest issue with your approving citation of Maher. Maher is just interested in attention, and waging war with "crazy progressives" serves that goal. From what you have repeatedly said, you have a very different goal. Thus, at least in my view, you should not join Maher's game.

TruePath said...

Quick note re: Hawaiians. It's not at all clear what the majority of native Hawaiians favor re: observatories. When I last looked only result that could be called a survey existed (though a bit old) and it showed a significant majority didn't want to stop the projects (and the jobs etc.. which came with them).

But that was before the peak and minds may have changed.

However, either way actually respecting native Hawaiians means not trying to shove them into a traditional box with medicine men and other religious rituals. That's no more true of most Hawaiians than the pope wandering around in his crazy outfits represents most Europeans. Of course traditions often have strong roots but it really irks me when people decide which side is the native Hawaiian side by only counting the views of people who fit a particular stereotype.

Alfred Differ said...

Duncan,

The only good idea I saw come from senior management (just once) was to eliminate the budget of a particular project that was going nowhere, existed to satisfy a lawyerly issue, and was sucking talent away from actual good ideas.

Just once... it was the brilliant thing to do.

Yah. I know that doesn't count toward what we were all discussing, but I was impressed. Just once. 8)

Alfred Differ said...

Robert,

My Beijing niece can't understand why people over here won't wear masks because she sees it as them actively trying to hurt other people.

We have a heck of a time even getting guys to wash their hands when leaving a restroom. It's a wonder our doctors do it before surgery. 8)

Native American said...

Paradoctor


"he's a Nativist. But my nose may be wrong"


For at least, you admitting possibility of mistake from your side.
That's why I'm still here. Because some of people here have healthy reactions, not only all-out political slur.

Congrats, for keeping (somewhat) healthy mind in this crazy times.



D.Cairncross


I'll give you one example.
When Steve Jobs had come to his first cumputer-assembling facility and asked "How do you account all that small details we need?"

"We order em in bulk orders. And then throwing in that big boxes for everyone to grab some".

"Not good" - he said, and ordered to make full-throught system of marking and controlling. One of the first such system.

So... short answer is - maybe you was not on that level to phatome what top decision makers strategic overview are about?



L.Harm (that's shortcut for Little Harm)



"It's pretty darn obvious that English isn't his first language."

Yes, Captain Obvious. English is not Native Americans First Language.

They was not born to say "Hao!" and call each other "Big Bull" or something.


"To notice that washing hands and wearing masks actually works."

So, why you was not wearing mask before all that CoVi? I dare to ask.

What, you need Highest Order command, to be cautious and conciderate about your own health?
Or that's just "mokey see, mokey do" thing?


"It's not that I misunderstand the term. It's just that you're accusing me of dehumanizing conservative journalists by claiming they're conservatives first and journalists second. But the one who said that--I think it was Grover Norquist, but it might have been Karl Rove instead--was a conservative mouthpiece. And he was praising conservatives, not burying them."


And?
What YOUR conclusion from all that "it was Grover Norquist, but it might have been Karl Rove" (VERY precise stating of facts... for a wannabe-seen-as-fact-user, I must admit to m,yself)?
Am I phatomed YOUR reaction on that words somehow not correctly?

And what your objections to my statement - that your reaction is just an examle of Objectivation Bias?
Do you know what "bias" is at all?


"but what you've proven by example is that any Republicans who aren't like that don't get to continue to influence the party for very long."

Believe it or not.
With Dems it's all the same.
Tribadism.


"I'll help you. Go to google.com and type in "Lyrics 'kerosene record player'""

That's another side of that same problem. Too much dependence/reliance on that nifty services. Instead of "been there, seen that".
Borrowed knowledge/erudition is not yours. And overuse of it makes you blind to your own mistakes and errors.



D.Brn


"No they aren't idiot. You are."


That's quite un-idiotic of you. <-- SARCASM!!!
To answer to elaborately presented argument with childish "no, you are fool".

I could be outraged, if my quiet observations of your bechavior would not suggest me that that's your usual reaction. To anything that is not your own words.

TCB said...

If the 'moderates' cave in the end and help the democratic Democrats preserve the Republic, then fine! If 'moderates' like Manchin and Sinema end up tanking the Biden-Democratic programs and handing the government back to the fascists, do we have to keep calling them 'moderates'?

That word smells of propaganda to me anyway, who decided we'd use it? It's a sneaky bit of both-sides language that helps paint progressives as "just as extreme" as the far right GOP.

Petain wasn't a moderate, he was a Vichy collaborationist.

Ayman Hossam Fadel said...

I've been voting Green Party wherever possible in USA elections since 2000. Not wishing to repeat the discussion here, I would ask that those who criticize people for not choosing to support the Democratic Party put some significant fraction of that effort into supporting Ranked Choice Voting/Instant Runoff Voting or some similar voting mechanism reforms which do allow people to vote their conscience and avoid unwanted consequences.

In the state of Georgia in the United States, a relatively new organization called Better Ballot Georgia is working towards such reforms.

https://www.betterballotgeorgia.org/

Ayman Hossam Fadel said...

And a national organization promoting election reform in USA is https://www.fairvote.org/

Robert said...

We have a heck of a time even getting guys to wash their hands when leaving a restroom.

Putting the sinks outside the restroom so it's obvious who doesn't was has been tried, and had some positive effect.

David Brin said...

I grow tired of Greg's endless predictability and obsession with doubling down on doing exactly the very thing I complained about.

"But if you want them to join you, is saying "you are all idiots" (as Maher does) likely to be effective?"

Again, I look you in the eye andd say bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, and bullshit.

It is not endlessly attacking when a tiny minority of moderates dares to stand up in the face of relentless antagonism and bullying and say "STOP pissing in the faces of your allies!" That is not aggression becuase it is a RESPONSE to a tsunami of unmerited and venomous attacks that never cease and that cannot be placated. Again I demand a CASH wager as to whether I can't point to a hundred aggressions or destructions of coalition by far-flakes for every time one of us stands to say STOP THAT!

I have been clear endlessly. I admire AOC/Bernie/Liz and the majority of lefty allies in this cause of saving the Enlightenment. They don't do the things I described. But they are scared to stand up to their fringe of bilious haters. They know they'll be booed, just as Trump was at that rally, for saying "take the vaccine."

I DEFY you RIGHT NOW to show me where I or Maher said "they're all idiots." You lie, as usual. You lie, you lie, you lie.

And I have history to back me up. Campus style leftists betrayed us in 1980, 94, 2000, 2010 and 2016, when a bit of effort might have prevented calamity. But that would have left them in the awkward position we see today.... of actually negotiating incremental and incomplete steps forward that'd MERELY leave everyone better off the following year to ask for more. And at minimum could have prevented Supply Side rapes of the nation.

You WILL do it again, next year, Greg. Why don't you just avow to it, proudly, the way Ayman Hossam Fadel just did?

---
You are welcome here, AHF, and indeed I have fought for preferential or Rank Choice balloting for decades and am glad to see it finally getting some traction! In places where that happens, or in very deep blue or red areas where your vote makes no difference, go ahead and organize for a new party.

But Nader and Stein did not withdraw from Florida. And that fact blatantly gave victory to Bush and then Trump.

That simple fact consigns them to hell and I mean that literally. Because of that, they were traitors who harmed us all terribly.


---
True Path, I never meant that all native Hawaiians are animist spirit worshippers. But MANY of the anti astronomy activists claim "holy ground" as their justification for sanctimony war against science and their own interests.

And it is perfectly legitimate to point out that "gods" perform miracles and Poli'Ahu has performed just one, over and over again, almost every night at her mountaintop. A miracle that all the world acknowledges and appreciates and is thankful for.

And it's pretty darned arrogant to ignore such a blatant message from your goddess.

---


David Brin said...

“Yes, Captain Obvious. English is not Native Americans First Language.”
Oh puh-leez? And notice he did not actually answer Paradoctor’s direct question.

In fact, your grammatical errors have a certain Slavic quality to them. They do make you hard to understand, but we try.

But your Objectivation Bias stuff is just fizzing nonsense.

“Believe it or not.
With Dems it's all the same.
Tribadism.”

You know nothing. You are just hurling stuff. If your life depended on it, you could not describe Democrats accurately

Or scientists. You clearly know no scientists or science or how science works.

Larry Hart said...

"Native" "American" :

"To notice that washing hands and wearing masks actually works."

So, why you was not wearing mask before all that CoVi? I dare to ask.


Because the idea never crossed my mind?


What, you need Highest Order command, to be cautious and conciderate about your own health?
Or that's just "mokey see, mokey do" thing?


Not a "command", but sometimes a suggestion or an example gets one thinking of something new.

For example, why didn't you ever post on this blog before a few days ago?


What YOUR conclusion from all that "it was Grover Norquist, but it might have been Karl Rove" (VERY precise stating of facts... for a wannabe-seen-as-fact-user, I must admit to m,yself)?
Am I phatomed YOUR reaction on that words somehow not correctly?


If you mean, "Do I not understand what you are saying?", then you are right that you do not understand what I am saying. I also don't understand what you are saying. The key word in your question--"phatomed"--isn't a word, which makes the question you're asking impenetrable except by context.


And what your objections to my statement - that your reaction is just an examle of Objectivation Bias?
Do you know what "bias" is at all?


Those two arch conservatives say a lot of things that sound alike, so no, I don't remember exactly who I was referring to. That doesn't invalidate the point, that a conservative praised conservative journalists by asserting that their first loyalty is to conservatism rather than journalism. You think that makes me biased because I took him at his word? If conservatives think that it's a good thing that conservative journalists are propagandists, then it hardly matters whether they really are or not. Their value system is showing.

Paradoctor said...

Native American accidentally made a funny: "Tribadism".
Google says:
<<
trib·a·dism /ˈtribəˌdizəm/
A form of sexual activity between women in which the genitals are stimulated by being rubbed against one another.
>>

According to an online English-Russian translator, 'scente-ist' means 'fragrant mist'. Maybe N.A. has a thing about smelling.

I take it back about N.A. being a Nativist. Not even the alt-right has such bad grammar and spelling.

David Brin said...

Could Ivan -- I mean "Native American" - mean OBJECTIVISM? The cult of masturbatory self-congratulation incantationd founded by Ayn Rand?

TCB said...

Wait wait wait HAHAHAHAHHAHH

"Believe it or not.
With Dems it's all the same.
Tribadism."

Maybe I should have read Native American's comment more closely.

HAAAHAHAHHAHH

Have you looked up what tribadism means?

hohoho oh my god

I wish Democratic politics was like that.

hahahh

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

Could Ivan -- I mean "Native American" - mean OBJECTIVISM? The cult of masturbatory self-congratulation incantationd founded by Ayn Rand?


Heh. But no, I don't think so. Occam's Razor says that by "objectivation bias", he meant simply that I was "objectifying" conservative journalists by perceiving them negatively as being propagandists for conservativism rather than true journalists.

But it wasn't me doing the perceiving. It was a conservative mouthpiece, who was proud of the fact that, unlike liberal journalists, conservative journalists dance with the ones who brung 'em.

scidata said...

We're getting perilously close to rekindling the 'bot' debates. Bots can be augmentations to a human being, allowing them to greatly increase their daily verbiage, especially when they aren't fluent in English. The result is a torrent of brash, ill-conceived, flamey noise, intended to provoke or troll. The botmaster's cognitive effort need only be brought to bear when a fish gets hooked, making the whole sewery mess appear to be real. This lends weight to my improved Turing Test (double-bind challenge) because human belief is a weak measure of the unseen intelligence in the next room. Not to put too fine a point on it, we're easily duped.

Paradoctor said...

scidata:
Is there intelligent life on planet Earth? I'm skeptical. The question is undecidable by us, for we lack the necessary objectivity to assess ourselves accurately. To say that bots are intelligent, because they can fool us, assumes the conclusion. I say that doubting human intelligence is the most intelligent option.

Mike Barry said...

All this Roosha Roosha Roosha BS is just a buncha BS, and everybody g.d. well knows it.

Native American said...



L.Hart


"Because the idea never crossed my mind?"


Thank you for being honest.
Only... why you denigrate other people, while that "never crossed my mind" could be with them too, if that is not because of Objectivation Bias, ah? (I'm very interested in your honest answer to this question too) That they just MUST know and understand SAME thing, SAME time as you. While it was problematic even to you, to fathom such simple thing like "wearing mask saves lifes".

And what we can say about MORE complex things. Not so easy to grasp, ah?


"Heh. But no, I don't think so. Occam's Razor says that by "objectivation bias", he meant simply that I was "objectifying" conservative journalists by perceiving them negatively as being propagandists for conservativism rather than true journalists."

Bias | Definition of Bias by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com
Bias definition is - an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice.


List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org

Objectification

In social philosophy, objectification is the act of treating a person, or sometimes an animal,[1] as an object or a thing. It is part of dehumanization, the act of disavowing the humanity of others.



Oh, I need to ask you to give me a pardon here. Can I?

When I last checked Google gave me some pretty simple and easy to apply definition of "objectivation bias" or something.

But see, how many biases do exist (check that list, its lengthy, try to find at least some of that biases in yourself).


That definition was about:

we tend to make excuses to our own bechavior/misdeeds, because we see our inner motivation,

while toward other people we are most strict judges - if they did/said something we don't like, that's because they are evil to the core... not that they have had their reasons, did that under influence of strong emotions, in context we do not know, do not understand, etc.


"That doesn't invalidate the point, that a conservative praised conservative journalists by asserting that their first loyalty is to conservatism rather than journalism."

Well. "Loyalty" it's by definition something your give your First and Foremost Pledge, isn't it?
Second (Third, Fifth, Fiffty-secong,eh?) Loyalty looks oxymoronic, isn't it?
From Merriam-Webster "LOYALTY implies a faithfulness that is steadfast in the face of *ANY* temptation to renounce, desert, or betray."

And... I do not know what definition they (ot you) used for "journalism".
What if that is some derogatory meaning, like "yellow journalism"?


"You think that makes me biased because I took him at his word? If conservatives think that it's a good thing that conservative journalists are propagandists, then it hardly matters whether they really are or not. Their value system is showing."

That is YOUR words "conservative journalists are propagandists". Your judgment.
Isn't it safe to state even here - that THIS your judgment is BIASED, eh?
By definition.
If one said something like "Their value system is showing" in negative (or positive) sense - that is demonstration of bias.

Or not?
How'd you name it?




TCB


"Have you looked up what tribadism means?"


I'm glad that you spotted and have fun of my innicent word-play.




Ayman Hossam Fadel


...supporting Ranked Choice Voting/Instant Runoff Voting or some similar voting mechanism...


I do not want to discourage you.
Only calmly warn.
That all ideas of voting reforms breaking off when meeting Harsh Reality and strict judgment of Science - the more complex voting system, the more cheatholes, backdoors and exploits they have.

Native American said...

.




Paradoctor


I say that doubting human intelligence is the most intelligent option.


That must be crafted in big gold letters.

"I know only that that I know nothing"
Socrates, from Plato's account


I'm glad to meet yet one socratic fellow here.





.

Der Oger said...

That simple fact consigns them to hell and I mean that literally. Because of that, they were traitors who harmed us all terribly.

Have there been any substantial attempts to forge a deal with the Greens or any other third party by the Democratic Party? In both 2000, 2016?

Like in, "You don't participate in presidential elections. We give you cabinet seats, House Seats, state offices, policies etc., but you stay out of the race for the White House."

Also, does the allegation "You are a traitor because you voted for X, not for Y, and therefore you are responsible for Z" really convince "dissidents"? I doubt it. Also, I find it a bit disrespectful, both against potential allies and the principles of democracy.

Also, Jo Jorgenson might have helped Biden win Georgia, Wisconsin and maybe another state or two, so third party voters sometimes also go your way.

Then help it to break the sick habit of pissing in the faces of allies.

I am sure the Afghans, Kurds and anyone else allied with you would applaud.

Paul451 said...

Important information about the 2020 election. Donald Trump was right! Massive electoral fraud. Mainstream media refuses to cover it. Sad.

https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/elections/the-real-steal-electoral-forensics-and-the-2020-election/

Native American said...

Empathy gap

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hot-cold empathy gap is a cognitive bias in which people underestimate the influences of visceral drives on their own attitudes, preferences, and behaviors.[1]

The most important aspect of this idea is that human understanding is "state-dependent". For example, when one is angry, it is difficult to understand what it is like for one to be calm, and vice versa; when one is blindly in love with someone, it is difficult to understand what it is like for one not to be, (or to imagine the possibility of not being blindly in love in the future). Importantly, an inability to minimize one's gap in empathy can lead to negative outcomes in medical settings (e.g., when a doctor needs to accurately diagnose the physical pain of a patient),[2] and in workplace settings (e.g., when an employer needs to assess the need for an employee's bereavement leave).[3]
Hot-cold empathy gaps can be analyzed according to their direction:[2]
Hot-to-cold: People under the influence of visceral factors (hot state) don't fully grasp how much their behavior and preferences are being driven by their current state; they think instead that these short-term goals reflect their general and long-term preferences.
Cold-to-hot: People in a cold state have difficulty picturing themselves in hot states, minimizing the motivational strength of visceral impulses. This leads to unpreparedness when visceral forces inevitably arise.
They can also be classified in regards to their relation with time (past or future) and whether they occur intra- or inter-personally:[2]
intrapersonal prospective: the inability to effectively predict their own future behavior when in a different state. See also projection bias.[4]
intrapersonal retrospective: when people recall or try to understand behaviors that happened in a different state. See retrospective hot-cold empathy gaps.

interpersonal: the attempt to evaluate behaviors or preferences of another person who is in a state different from one's own.

The term hot-cold empathy gap was coined by Carnegie Mellon University psychologist George Loewenstein. Hot-cold empathy gaps are one of Loewenstein's major contributions to behavioral economics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy_gap

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

Is there intelligent life on planet Earth? I'm skeptical. The question is undecidable by us, for we lack the necessary objectivity to assess ourselves accurately.


Heh.

True, I have no idea if other intelligent life exists here on earth. The only such life I can be sure of is myself. "I think, therefore I am intelligent."

See Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions for the tragi-comic inevitable results of someone coming to believe that.

Paradoctor said...

scidata:
How does a double-blind Turing test work? You don't know if it's a bot or a human and you don't know if you're a bot or a human? That's Twilight Zone material!

Native American said...

L.Hart


Thank you. Still, discussion is the best way to refine one's understanding.

Here, that definition I have had on my mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

As you can see that was never meant for accusing you in anything.

Because, that is natural way we as humans built:

while our inner *I* can observe from inside all motives, emotions and experiences,

other people we can assess only from their outer appearance and bechavior.

And use that discoveries for bettering understanding of our own self. By comparation. I'll add.

Native American said...

Paradoctor


"There is a paradox of origin at work here. Truth has true reasons for itself; those true reasons also have true reasons, and so on. But what starts the chain? Or perhaps it goes around in a circle, or a web. But what holds up the web? Something that's not truth? But how reliable would such support be?"


Truth... that A, and not-A. True and false constitutes one.
In and Yan in chinese misticism.

What really opposite to the Truth... it's not Falsehood, but Chaos. Well... that last thing, discussable.

David Brin said...

Whatever "Mike Barry"... I mean Ivan.

So, Ivan, here's my standard (paste-in) offer. Have a reputable attorney write to verify you've escrowed $5000 in wager stakes and we'll put the evidence before a politcally neutral panel of not-notably-partisan retired senior military/intel officers. (A majority were lifelong Republicans.) If you actually believe your treason yammers, you'll do this eagerly, even borrowing or pooling with fellow MAGAs, in order to take MY money! So far, no MAGA or Putin-puppet has ever shown the basic, manly guts to step up with stakes to back up their incantation-blathers, the way our dads and grampas would have. Proving that you are a pack of no-balls blowhards. Oh, and shills for the Kremlin. That too.

David Brin said...

N.A. you are clearly not a troll, but a contrarian argumentative type and thus welcome here. But the sheer volume of your verbiage and lectures… multiplied by their (alas) low value in actual cogency… means that you face another risk… getting skimmed by more-intelligent members and simply shrugged-off.

I recommend making your (alas mostly silly) points with more efficiency and brevity and some culling of the stupid.

Example: “That all ideas of voting reforms breaking off when meeting Harsh Reality and strict judgment of Science - the more complex voting system, the more cheatholes, backdoors and exploits they have.”

Rank Choice has been studied relentlessly and tested all over the world. While computers can be hacked, paper ballots can be audited, which is why Republicans try to avoid them.

“I'm glad to meet yet one socratic fellow here.”

Not Socratic but Platonist. And Plato was one of the prime villains across 2500 years.

——
“Have there been any substantial attempts to forge a deal with the Greens or any other third party by the Democratic Party? In both 2000, 2016?”

There were many rumors of overtures through deniable third parties… and both Gore and Nader would have had reason to deny it. But the simple truth is, Nader… and later Stein… got ego-drenched sugarplum fantasies egged on by sycophants and fans.

Had Nader simply ceded Florida, we’d have had AL FREAKING GORE as president! And sure, Nader would have been rewarded somehow. Even if Gore had been a one term prez, the whole Bush/Cheney thing would not happen, Supply Side rape would have been vetoed and we’d save the planet. And same with Stein & Florida. May they both roast in hell.

“Jo Jorgenson might have helped Biden win Georgia, Wisconsin…”

I didn’t know. And hence the reward Nader and Stein got was infamy.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

N.A. you are clearly not a troll, but a contrarian argumentative type and thus welcome here


Not a troll, I agree, but somewhat of a sealion. I am not going to spend an inordinate amount of time on conversations of this form:

"Republicans are liars"

That's just your bias showing. They think you're the liar.

"They insist that the election was fradulent, even though no evidence of fraud has ever been shown."

That's what you say. Mike Pillow thinks differently, so how do you know you are right and he is wrong?

(rinse, repeat ad infinitum)

Larry Hart said...

Der Oger:

Also, Jo Jorgenson might have helped Biden win Georgia, Wisconsin and maybe another state or two, so third party voters sometimes also go your way.


Sure. The point isn't that third parties always help Republicans. But at least in the US system, voting for a third party tends to be most helpful to the major candidate whom the voter least prefers.

scidata said...

Paradoctor: How does a double-blind Turing test work?

A double-bind dilemma occurs when two mutually exclusive conclusions arrive simultaneously, and neither can be falsified. Humans can handle them*, even at a fairly high level of cognition (not simply by ignoring them). But they cause smoke and fire when given to a so-so AI, as illustrated multiple times in Star Trek TOS.


* and even enjoy them as irony. Christopher Hitchens was always on about this. So appreciation of irony might make a better Turing Test (more objective).

David Brin said...

LH of course that was among the"stupid" things NA said. Damn straight we can tell who is lying! There are things called facts and although science admits none are absolutely perfect, our models of reality are refined, many of them to 99.999999% reliability and predictive success.

Nothing political reaches that level. But verification and refutation are definitely possible when it becomes pertinent to deciding which party is generally trying to benefit America and the Enlightenment experiment and enact sane policies and behave accountably ... vs. which has become a foul sewer of turpitude, treason and spews of fecal lying.

And yes, the difference is now that clear and decisive.

I invite NA to negotiate major wager stakes on that. He will flee like all the other preening, supposedly "macho" non-men.

Robert said...

Not a troll, I agree, but somewhat of a sealion. I am not going to spend an inordinate amount of time on conversations

I've been ignoring, assuming it was the spam filter misbehaving again. IMHO, sea lions are trolls, out to suck time and energy in a display of bad faith "debate". Life is too short to play their games.

Larry Hart said...

Robert:

IMHO, sea lions are trolls, out to suck time and energy in a display of bad faith "debate". Life is too short to play their games.


I agree, but with one exception. The rhetorical question which is supposed to be a "gotcha", but for which there is actually a good answer that exposes the inanity of the argument. Sometimes, that response is worth making.

David Brin said...

I'll go further guys. I (as you know) am known to skim such folks' missives looking for a rare genuine expression of either curiosity or making a cogent point. I will spend a little time on it as a reward for such lapses in the stoopid.

I did it with our latest Ivan. There have been times when it paid off.

TCB said...

The "sea lioning" origin comes to us from this excellent web cartoon, Wondermark, dated September 19th, 2014.

https://wondermark.com/1k62/

Paradoctor said...

David Brin:
You accuse me of Platonism, and Platonism of being villainous. I agree that his Republic was mechanical-tyrannical, and his Laws were Spartan. And it's true that mathematics tends to be Platonic. But I'm a _reformed_ Platonist. I believe in the integers, the rationals, the reals, the complex numbers, and the quaternions, though that's an act of faith, but I've had it with the transfinite cardinals. Engineering applications or it's pointless!

I would like to claim Socratic leanings. "I know only that I know nothing."

But my favorite was Diogenes. Once Plato and friends were visiting the city of Syracuse. They were strolling along a river towards the palace of the tyrant, where awaited food and wine and music. There in the river, up to his knees in the cold water, stood Diogenes, washing cabbages. They asked him why he was washing cabbages; he answered that he needed the money. Plato said, "Poor Diogenes! If only he knew how to flatter the tyrant, then he wouldn't have to wash cabbages!" Diogenes replied, "Poor Plato! If only he knew how to wash cabbages, then he wouldn't have to flatter the tyrant!"


scidata:
Ah, a double-bind Turing test; that is, seeing if the bot can take a joke as well as a human can. Shall we call it the Kirk Test? Irony, paradox, humor, and the seven types of ambiguity do not fit well into binary logic.

From Lewis Carroll's "The Hunting of the Snark":

"The third is its slowness in taking a jest;
Should you happen to venture on one,
It will sigh like a thing that is deeply distressed:
And it always looks grave at a pun."

You know those science-fiction stories about critters whose minds are weird, irrational, and incomprehensible, yet mysteriously fit for their alien environment? That's AI's view of us.

Alfred Differ said...

For the record, I'm inclined to skip content that has an awful lot of whitespace in it. The gaps mess with my gisting technique. Single sentences framed in white say "Read all of me" and I respond with "oh yah? Sez who?"

David Brin said...

Paradoctor I suppose I oughta be nuanced re Plato. He was a vigorous ant-democracy polemicist... but the later phases of Athenian democracy had tumbled into malignant panic mode and murdered Socrates, so... that doesn't excuse but it paliates with some understanding.

And when Platonism returned to Europe in the 1200s it was the brash young reform movement vs Augustinianism, actually a big step forward... till it became the establishment system and was used to crush empiricists.

So yeah. it's complicated. But screw 'im.

Native American said...

L.Hart


""Not a troll, I agree, but somewhat of a sealion. I am not going to spend an inordinate amount of time on conversations of this form:

"Republicans are liars"

That's just your bias showing. They think you're the liar.""


In Logic... general propositions like this "they all liars" is meaningless and lead to tedious paradoxes.
That's all.
But I know that attitude "they all unholy scum, we all white feather angels" damn too good, from all that religious types all around.
Wanna be religious zealot? Wanna trash your mind with poor judgment and refusal to refine own understanding?
That's free country for you.
But in this case I will not be shy to admit that that way you are not constitute a viable oppopnent for me.
And can be only a pillow for my pins.


D.Brin


Rank Choice has been studied relentlessly and tested all over the world. While computers can be hacked, paper ballots can be audited, which is why Republicans try to avoid them.


All that thing called Elections are about Taking Power.
The same as with commercial ads - it's all about forcing you to BUY.
In both this case True Motives every and each time differ from what is said loudly. I thought that basic politological wisdom is self-evident. At least in this community.
So, why you await honest behavior from sides that have such conflicting motivations, I don't know?
Well, you derailed discussion from "voting mechanism reforms" to our mundane "voting fraud" screeching. Why so? Isn't that is manipulation?
Whatever.

Let's analyse it.

Short-term problems: 1) Legitemacy. Any voting system is more veritable if it works for a long time. Traditions and all.
2) Turbulence. Newly constituted system need time for people to learn how to use it correctly.
3) Exploiting. More complex system has more ways to cheat with, or even to block its work.

Long-term: 1) "Cheating" party will adapt to it. By changing their talking points or other approaches. Still, elections are not about counting "whom you likes", but about messages and promices given, isn't it?
2) "Cheating" party will be destroyed. But. Place will be taken by other forces, which would be better adapted for political competition under Ranked Choice voting system.
3) Tradition of "changing rules on the fly" can be established. Where every time losing side will argue that rules of voting need to be revised.


“I'm glad to meet yet one socratic fellow here.”
Not Socratic but Platonist. And Plato was one of the prime villains across 2500 years.

Such extravagant claimes must be elaborated futher.
Cannot be taken as is.
Well, I still have not enough data to blame Paradoctor to be that bad, nasty, p-p-p... platonist.
Let's he say it.


I invite NA to negotiate major wager stakes on that. He will flee like all the other preening, supposedly "macho" non-men.

And... why should I play YOUR games? What for?
Especially when you from get go so eager to decide, in my stead - what I must to bet on?
Isn't that is primitive setup for a "countryside fool" game?
Like when some newbie comes to a town, and becomes easy prey for a thug who proposing him easy-win gambling.

Do you think I am such simpleton?

Do you think it's good for your cause?

Rethorical questions.

My game is of Logic and Analysis.
Why you'd not play by that rules?
What's up? Are you Chicken?

Native American said...

Paradoctor


How does a double-blind Turing test work? You don't know if it's a bot or a human and you don't know if you're a bot or a human? That's Twilight Zone material!

I guess. (if I understand that double-*bind* idea correctly)
It means - if you'll set that tested AI in controversial disposition results should be - it'll squirms and will try to escape such predicaments.


But my favorite was Diogenes.

Seems like we even closer. In our self-identification for at least.
Bite your fellows, yep.


You know those science-fiction stories about critters whose minds are weird, irrational, and incomprehensible, yet mysteriously fit for their alien environment? That's AI's view of us.

Have you read Stanislav Lem's Golem XIV?

Native American said...

D.Brin

I invite NA to negotiate major wager stakes on that.


Damn it, that my curiosity. But.
What exactly stakes do you mean?
And why you think I might be interestred?

I would be more glad to discuss that double-bind AI problem.
Or different and all types of biases that bewitching our mind.
Or some other such things... glimmer of which attract people like me, scidata and paradoctor to come here.

But it seems like it's just pyrite. "Gold of the fools" sparks, still.
So, maybe I am really that simpleton deserving dire punisment.
Who knows.

Paradoctor said...

Here's how to short-circuit Platonism, paradox style:

Some of Plato's Forms are examples of themselves, and some are not. The Form of all forms is a form, but the Form of all tables is not a table. Now consider the Form of all forms, and only those forms, that are not examples of themselves. Call that Russell's Form R. For any Form F, F is an example of R equals F is not an example of F. Is R an example of itself? It is as much as it is not!

David Brin said...

See, this is why I push the wager thing. Because the entire confederate/Putinist/oligarchic putsch dep[ends absolutely upon undermining any sense of factual basis for reality... that assertions can be tested. Fact professions are the principal roadbloacks in the way of re-establishing feudalism.

And hence, they push this insane drivel that N.A. keeps doubling down with... "There is no fact! You and your opponents are just as right! You say it's daytime and your opponent says it's night... how can anyone tell for sure?"

Now trhere are far lefties who do this, too! But thos postmodernist dingbats make up a fringe of the general progressive/science-using, pragmatic enlightenment side of this civil war. OTOH, I assert that nearly ALL Republicans are now so steeped in this dogma of subjectivity and hatred of fact professions, that it now qualifies as a cult.

Thing is, at least Republicans have a glimmer of shame when you or I demand they step up, like men, and back up their blowhard lie-memes with cash. They understand that that is what men do. And it embarrasses them that their refusal exposes them as no-balls cowards.

They flee.

And this proves that "Native American" is nothing of the sort, because most men from that background understand the notion of honor and wagers. I've never known a First Nations person who did not.

Naw, he is either what we've guessed... an agent provocateur doing 'sea-lioning"... or else a non-conservative member of the cult who sincerely is incapable of grasping what honotr or manhood have to do with anything.

Okay fella. Again. Facts exist. There are professions that use them to pierce the shadows of Plato's Cave. And that clearly terrifies you.

Larry Hart said...

Sergei:

"Republicans are liars"

In Logic... general propositions like this "they all liars" is meaningless and lead to tedious paradoxes.


Make it "Most influential Republicans are liars." We observe their behavior and their specific lies every day. I'll cop to there being a handful of exceptions.


But I know that attitude "they all unholy scum, we all white feather angels" damn too good, from all that religious types all around.


That's you reading "we all white feather angels" into it. I never said anything of the sort.


But in this case I will not be shy to admit that that way you are not constitute a viable oppopnent for me.


Good, because you're not worth my time either.

Larry Hart said...

Paradoctor:

Here's how to short-circuit Platonism, paradox style:


Heh. Just realized that your nym plays on "paradox". Whoosh!

The example you gave is probably difficult to parse for someone who hasn't heard it before, but it's a variation on the paradox invoked by ascertaining the True/False value of the statement, "This sentence is a lie."

Larry Hart said...

Too good not to share...

https://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2021/Senate/Maps/Aug27.html#item-7

We begin in San Antonio, TX, home of Louis Tussaud's Palace of Wax. You may have head of Madame Tussaud, who achieved much wealth and fame in the wax museum business. Louis was her great-grandson and did not have, shall we say, quite the same gift for realistic renderings of famous people. People bought tickets 100 years ago, and still buy them today, for purposes of camp and/or irony, so they can laugh at the sculptures, rather than marveling at them.

The San Antonio location, as you might guess, has a Trump figure:

...

Anyhow, Tussaud's has had to remove the Trump sculpture. It's not because he's an alleged tax cheat, or an alleged sexual predator, or due to his having fomented insurrection against the United States, though. No, it's because visitors to the museum kept punching the sculpture, and wax is not really up to the rigors of being used as a punching bag. Undoubtedly, many folks are lamenting that they didn't know to hustle down to San Antonio to get their shots in before it was too late.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

And this proves that "Native American" is nothing of the sort,


I just realized what NA's speech patterns remind me of. The Bizarro character from Superman comics. A mix of bad syntax and saying the opposite of what one means. "Me am so happy me don't want to kill myself." That sort of thing.

David Brin said...

Depends. You are a kind of liar if you frantically cling to denail that the memes you clutch originate from liars and are disprovable lies and hence the very notion of DISPROOF must be denounced.

Or else, reciting "I still believe this pit of liars can be reformed!" (Susan Collins)

If you use that definition, then yeah. All liars, all the way down.

Der Oger said...

There were many rumors of overtures through deniable third parties… and both Gore and Nader would have had reason to deny it. But the simple truth is, Nader… and later Stein… got ego-drenched sugarplum fantasies egged on by sycophants and fans.

Thank you.

My first thought was that minor political parties are more susceptible to turn into cult-like organizations, but then again, you have Trump capering the Republican party.

I think the main problem of these parties is that they never had the chance to mature in government, having to commit realpolitik and gaining flak for it from its base, yet somehow surviving the backlash and continuing, building political capital over time and attracting more and more of the political center. In other words: If you have never a chance of entering government, you can stay at your fundamentalist roots.

Paradoctor said...

Larry Hart:
Specifically, it's Russell's Paradox of the set of all sets, and only those sets, that do not contain themselves. That set contains itself as much as it does not: a liar paradox. Applying this to Platonic forms seems natural, as does:

The watchmen watch all those, and only those, who do not watch themselves. Who watches the watchmen?
Answer: they watch themselves as much as they do not.

So Russell's Paradox afflicts both Platonism and the surveillance state!

Paradoctor said...


scidata:
Would a double-blind double-bind dilemma be when neither you nor the bot know which is the butt of the joke? The Twilight Zone version would be two bots failing at trolling each other.

Native American:
Golem XIV? I read it once; a deep piece; maybe I'll re-read it soon.
Here's some advice. You came in swinging. We don't mind that too much; we're annoying contrarians too; but we demand coherence and concision in our snark. Spell-check helps. (I shall forever treasure your 'Tribadism' typo.) Read and edit several times before hitting Send.

Native American said...

Paradoctor

Some of Plato's Forms are examples of themselves, and some are not.

Thank you. We know/care what Russel's/Barber Paradox are.
Well, at least some of us.

It's more interesting to hear what do you think - is it just lexical, or maybe have some deep roots in our Reality?

Also, I heard that mathematicians claimed it as resolved.

And one more, as math-wise, what do you think about intuitionism?


Golem XIV? I read it once; a deep piece; maybe I'll re-read it soon.

There is his other book. "Summa Technologia".
Well, I do not propose to read it. That is bulky piece of philosophical non-fiction.
Still, it sums up ideas from all his other works.



L.Hart

Make it "Most influential Republicans are liars." We observe their behavior and their specific lies every day. I'll cop to there being a handful of exceptions.

I already answered to this higher. Politics - it's inherently controversial type of activity, activity where True Motives never by noone stated out loud, so why do you try to reduce it to "they are liars, we are great" if not because of strictly partisan reasons?
To thrill up your supporters and to shuddup all questions. Like Reps do.
But I like questions, and do not like being shut.


That's you reading "we all white feather angels" into it. I never said anything of the sort.

But implied, Larry. You implied it. All turtles way down. Your answer to each and every question this far are just that - "because they are liars". While that absolutely anti-logical. Nobody can lie ALL the time.(imagine some Absolute Liar... type who will say "What a rainy day" on a clear sky Sunday - but that is rediculous, because ALL you'd need to make him truth-teller - negation of every his claim)

And I'll add. You are easily allow to yourself to "read into it" that "that showing their values".
But no, nobody should assume that your words mean what they mean? And that your screed showing YOUR values too.


(rinse, repeat ad infinitum)

Yes.
Algorithm of scientific discovery. As well as basicly rational analisys is like this.

1) Find you a problem.
2) Define it and (re)frame it correctly.
3) Try to extract logical implications.
4) Devise and perform experiments to gain more data
repeat ad infinitum

Or, in somewhat more poetic way.

-The road to wisdom?
—Well, it's plain and simple to express: Err and err and err again, but less and less and less. — Piet Hein.




D.Brin

They flee.

And this proves that "Native American" is nothing of the sort, because most men from that background understand the notion of honor and wagers. I've never known a First Nations person who did not.


I'll ignore this dirty accusation.
And will kindly suggest you to (re)watch Back To The Future, Third Part.
Last couple minutes that summs it up, from all three films -- that it's deeply unwise to react on shallow taunts like "what, are you Chicken?!!".

Especially, if that taunts are deeply misplaced.
I'm not Repuglican. But I am not Dem too.
While I think Reps are mindless bonkers. But they mostly harmless.
While, some ideas from Left, while absolutely crazy, also are quite dangerous.

Well, still, I could help you to refine that taunts. As they falling flatly on their face, being too transparent and silly.
As well as keep in check your false-positives rate.

Well, I'm sure, you will not be fond of such generous help at all.
But, that is part of experiment.

Native American said...

D.Brin

They flee.


I just asked clarification questions:
what exactly bet do you want from me?
why do you think that I interested?

You swiftly ignored it.

It seems your algo is too primitive.
And/or too flawed, giving too much false-positives.

Native American said...

D.Brn

And hence, they push this insane drivel that N.A. keeps doubling down with... "There is no fact! You and your opponents are just as right! You say it's daytime and your opponent says it's night... how can anyone tell for sure?"


Oh, I overlooked that.

But that is... that is clear and direct lie.

In ever my post I explicitly reffered to facts (that there is biases, that there is ambiguities in meanings of words, that there is political affiliations and prejudges). And tried to analise my opponents words with Logic.

While my opponent(s?) mustered only that "fact"... that they just feel it that it's true.


Still, I'm still open to discuse it all.



"You say it's daytime and your opponent says it's night... how can anyone tell for sure?"

Well, there is blind people. To whom daylight is as good as night.
There is daltonics. And etc.

That's why we need Logic, Science to collect all veriety of facts and to make correct inferences of em.
And Constant Vigilance and Self-Critique to not fall into pitfall of self-delusion.

Larry Hart said...

Who does this remind you of?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/opinion/alt-right-taliban.html

As the Taliban swept through Afghanistan in August, a Gen Z alt-right group ran a Twitter account devoted to celebrating their progress. Tweets in Pashto juxtaposed two laughing Taliban fighters with pictures meant to represent American effeminacy. Another said, the words auto-translated into English, “Liberalism did not fail in Afghanistan because it was Afghanistan, it failed because it was not true. It failed America, Europe and the world see it.”
...

David Brin said...


Blah blah de blah blah. Writhing and squirming to maintain adesperate stance that he is smarter and can see while all the smart people are blind. It is THE most common mental ailment in America today. It manifests as "both sides-ism" and as declarations that almost all scientists are mindless drones seeking conformity.

Quick skim (ten seconds wasted:

Alas, your 'logic" is used only to neutralize the existence of facts which would demolish almost every stance you take. A blind person can certainly tell night from day, in countless ways.

Any of us here can prove Republicans aren't 'harmless" and would gl;adly test it before panels of the wisest and most meticulous fact people available. Likewise almost any of your subjectivist-cancelation-and-denial-of-all facts incantations. The WAGER STAKES aspect has two functions... (1) to make that effort worth our while, since you would make us go to all the effort of squirm chasing and then vanish. (2) Testing your honor... and clearly you have none. And I stand by that fact proving your monicker is a lie.

David Brin said...

But has anyone else noticed? He is either vetting his comments by better English speakers in that Kremlin basement or else using better grammar-checking programs. Honestly, it's the only reason I skim through samples.

Robert said...

Honestly, I've been skipping the comments. Life is short, and my reading list is long…

Larry Hart said...

Sergei:

so why do you try to reduce it to "they are liars, we are great" if not because of strictly partisan reasons?


I don't claim greatness, nor do I have to. I claim to be greater than Republicans because they are so awful. Which is a very low bar. My cat is preferable to a Republican.


"That's you reading "we all white feather angels" into it. I never said anything of the sort."

But implied, Larry. You implied it. All turtles way down. Your answer to each and every question this far are just that - "because they are liars".


Because they are. Which says nothing about how great (or not) I am.


While that absolutely anti-logical. Nobody can lie ALL the time.(imagine some Absolute Liar... type who will say "What a rainy day" on a clear sky Sunday - but that is rediculous,


Donald Trump.


because ALL you'd need to make him truth-teller - negation of every his claim)


You can pretty much do that with any Republican politician. Or at least understand that when they assert that liberals do something, they mean that they themselves do that thing.


And I'll add. You are easily allow to yourself to "read into it" that "that showing their values".
But no, nobody should assume that your words mean what they mean? And that your screed showing YOUR values too.


Nothing wrong with showing your values. I hope that mine are clear. My point was that the value that they clearly show is that of elevating partisanship over journalistic integrity. It was the value itself that I was disparaging, not the fact that they showed it.

David Brin said...

I did like the Back To The Future referencer, though it actually means the opposite of what he thinks it means. (Cue Inigo Montoya!)



onward

onward

Paradoctor said...

Native American:

Since you asked politely...

My view of the Liar paradox, Russell's paradox, Cantor's paradox, Godel's paradox, and many others, is that they demonstrate that paradox exists, and therefore logic must expand to accommodate paradox values for statements. On beyond binary!

There are many paradox logics; the simplest is Kleenean Logic, which contains three truth values: F = false, T = true, and I = intermediate. Kleenean logic's truth tables are defined by these rules:
X and T = X;
X and F = F;
X and X = X;
X or T = T;
X or F = X;
X or X = X;
not T = F ; not I = I ; not F = T

Kleenean logic is deductively complete; that is there's a finite set of identities that derive all identities in Kleenean logic.

Kleenean logic is also completely self-referential; that is, any set of Kleenean logic variables defined in terms of each other can be consistently assigned values.

Because not I = I, all of the paradoxes have solutions. No need for type theories, transfinite cardinals, or the rest of that fog.

I did my graduate work on 'diamond logic', which is four-valued, contains Kleenean logic as a sublogic, and can be interpreted as an intuitionistic logic, and also as a dialethic logic.


As for if paradox is lexical or relates to reality... Paradox has to do with logic, which is lexical by definition. But when I consider the world around me, I detect no transfinite cardinals, but I have detected plenty of paradoxes. My favorite is the Paradox of the Boundary. Is dawn day or night?

David Brin said...

onward

Unknown said...

So didn't you and some group of like minded people offer a few years ago some reward for victims of political blackmail to come forward and disclose what is happening?