Saturday, February 09, 2019

The Pecker solution. Plus debt, growth, and the top excuse offered by Wall Street parasites.

Lots of brief topics on debt and society and politics, this time, and if you make it to the end I promise something deeply thought-provoking for you economics wonks...but first a comment on the Bezos-Pecker imbroglio.

Jeff Bezos brought to life my decadal proposal that someone torch the foundation of all mafia empires - blackmail. I've long held that today's world is only explicable if hundreds, maybe thousands of powerful people are being blackmailed, each thinking he or she is all alone. (It's a top Kremlin tactic, going back to the czars.) I portrayed a gutsy politician shattering the dam (in a started novel) unleashing a flood of confession-revelations that save civilization. But sure, a rocket-building, SF-loving, unafraid zillionaire makes sense.
(The classic line: "You say you have negatives? Great! Print me some glossies please?)

Jeff should follow this fantastic essay with another, urging more of the blackmailed to come forth. As I describe here.

In fact, my old idea of a "Henchman's Prize" might lure out even more. Notice how this path doesn't just mean escape from the blackmailer's clutches. In Jeff's case, it leads to a kind of elevation and redemption. As I point out in an open letter to every new Latin American president who claims to want to end the cycles of graft, one speech - one declaration - could lift the monstrous cloud. Indeed, just a few weeks after I published my appeal to the new president of Mexico, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador hinted at something similar, without providing (alas) details.

Ah well, if no one will listen to me, well then perhaps the world will listen to the richest man in the planet. And yes, we do have (and desperately need) friends in Cloud City.

== Saving civilization from high debt and slow growth? ==

I confess an ulterior motive for praising this cogent article by Tim Morgan. It begins with daunting news -- it's not only in the developed world that prosperity growth has stalled. The fast-rising upper half of the developing world has been the engine of the world economy for 20+ years, but that boiler is apparently cooling. And when you lack growth, then the fast-rising rate of debt - fueling rentier asset bubbles and braking money velocity - becomes more than just a problem. It becomes a poison.
  
(To be clear, the Republican Party raved that Supply Side ("voodoo") tax gifts to the rich would both stimulate growth and reduce public debt. How many times must you prove 100% diametrically wrong before you lose credibility?)

Morgan is not without hope. There are ways to fix this, and they are rooted in what's worked ever-better for 200 years... entrepreneurial enterprise that is kept truly competitive by thoughtful-adaptive regulation that limits inevitable oligarchic cheating, of the sort that Adam Smith denounced and that our parents in the Greatest Generation wisely outlawed. And so we get to my favorite paragraph:

"The good news is that we’re not going into this new era wholly lacking in knowledge. The trick is to understand what that knowledge really is. Keynes teaches us how to manage demand – or can teach us this, so long as we don’t turn him into a cheerleader for ever bigger public spending. Likewise – if we can refrain from caricaturing him as a rabid advocate of unregulated and unscrupulous greed – Adam Smith tells us that competition, freely, fairly and transparently conducted, is the great engine of innovation. More humbly, or perhaps less theoretically, but surely more pertinently, experience tells us that the “mixed economy” of optimised private and public provision works far better than any extreme."

Several members of my blog community have linked to this, asking if I wrote it originally, so consistent is it with my own drums -- the study of Adam Smith and fiscally responsible Keynsianism, along with the spectacular success story of public investment in research, education, health and infrastructure, which can only be denied by the hysterically delusional.

No I didn't ghost write that -- (I lived in Britain for a couple of years, but would never spell "optimised" that way; shudder.) But I do recommend having a look. Tim Morgan continues:

"Going forward, we should anticipate the collapse of the “everything bubble” in asset prices, and should hope that we don’t, this time, go so far into economic denial as to think we can cure this with a purely financial “fix”. I’m fond of saying that “trying to fix an energy-based economy with financial fixes is like trying to cure an ailing pot-plant with a spanner”. We should understand popular concerns, which seem to point unequivocally towards a mixed economy, extensive redistribution and an economic nationalism that needs to be channelled, not simply vilified."
None of this will happen unless the last remaining Knowledge Castes who cling to the mad right finally acknowledge what the scientists, teachers, journalists, civil servants, skilled workers, and almost every fact-using profession - including the maligned "deep state" protectors - all know. That the worldwide mafia-commie-oligarchy axis is no friend of anything we value. They are the Olde Feudal Enemy of every type of freedom and progress. And it will take all of us to achieve what the Greatest Generation did, a whole human lifetime ago.

 Save civilization.

== Again, the greatest judo move Pelosi could pull... ==

While the reform package that will be passed by Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives consists of all good things that will help improve ethics, efficiency and fairness, it's still fairly minor stuff. Democrats should pass rules that really change the dynamic, like permanently giving some power to the minority! 

Why do this, when that minority party is Republican? Because Democrats will be out again, sooner or later, silenced and impotent... unless they set precedents now!

 My top proposal? Give every member of the House one subpoena per term, that can compel anyone to testify for 2 hours before a committee.

Sure, some GOPpers will use such a power to irritate and pursue grudges (virtually the only use to which they put subpoenas and hearings, when they were majority!) So? That means they'll be approving this minority right, institutionalizing it. (Maybe make that vow a necessary part of using their subpoenas.) But other Republican legislators will wait, hoping to use their one subpoena to benefit the home district. And why not? Pulling them away from their caucus is bad?

We've seen how the lack of such a minority power kept Congress from meaningfully exercising any meaningful oversight, when the only grownups (Democrats) had zero power to investigate anything at all. Envision how just 200 hours of such testimony, this last term, would have empowered Dems to apply accountability, even from a minority.

The crux: letting goppers vent blowhard-steam when they are in minority is a small price for letting demmies apply real accountability, when they have their minority turn.

It would also vest individual members with a measure of autonomy that might possibly lift their gaze from pure partisanship. 

It's one of several proposals in my FACT Act.


== The most fundamental lie of Wall Street Parasitism ==

Among the dumbest but most effective religious dogmas is the rationalization that Wall Street parasites provide a ‘valuable service’ in the “creation of liquidity, raising capital for growing businesses and determining proper price levels.” 

These are utter and diametrically-opposite-to-true lies, as shown in this article on the Evonomics site (where Adam Smith would be publishing, today.) But the essay doesn’t go far enough. The whole justification for Wall Street's “proper price arbitrage” excuse is actually insane on a basis of physics and biology… thermodynamics, in particular.

Dig it. All living things exist by creating pools of reduced entropy (their living bodies) by tapping a high quality energy flow to create order inside the body and export more entropy into the environment. Eventually that entropy departs as infrared that flows into space. (Idiotically blocking that outward drainage with greenhouse gas is a related-but-separate topic.) 

Now focus: it is energy GRADIENTS or downhill FLOWS of energy — the steeper the better — that living creatures use, the way differences in height power a water mill, or differences in heat propel a steam engine.

Plants turn the steep gradient of high quality sunlight into carbohydrates. Herbivores take the high concentrations in plant carbs and turn them into more herbivores. That packs-in concentrations carnivores can then access. Health comes when there are only a few such gradients, letting each one be steep enough for the plants-herbivores-carnivores to each thrive.

Oh, but sometimes parasites wedge in and tap these gradients, by sucking sap or blood, in effect making the flow more shallow. Look at a plant or animal afflicted by parasites and tell me it is healthy!  And yes, you are having the "aha!" moment right now. Because that's exactly what “proper-price-seeking” arbitrage or micro-trading of equities does to the “value” of a stock or commodity, making a million nibbles or cuts in order to flatten the slopes! While the parasite (trader/broker/HFT-program) sucks a little value each trade, the company or pension fund loses the gradient or value difference that its life depends upon.

Oh, but the parasites croon “see how the price differences (energy gradients) are flattening? It’s a gooood thing! A goood thing!” 


Surely you've seen how some wasps implant parasite eggs that make the cricket ignore its victimization? These are parasitic wasps. You are the cricket.

Maybe some of you have heard or seen this argument elsewhere… I never have, even though it utterly disproves the “proper price discovery” rationalization of Wall Street parasites. What I’ve described is a “contradiction of capitalism” far more deadly than any described by Marx. It’s why - in the words of Douglas Adams - these guys will be “first against the wall” when the revolution comes.

Oh, do you want to prevent a violent, French-Russian style Revolution? Want an American style generational reform instead? One that re-invigorates a flat-fair-competitive market economy? 

Well then these guys should be First Against The Wall.

== Finally... the China Dilemma ==

This is BY FAR the most important article you can read about China's leadership caste, by an Australian diplomat/journalist of immense insight. Join the site (free) in order to read it.

Follow this with my own insights, which dovetail with Garnaut's, but bring in Chinese PRC mythologies about central planning and AI.

What's missing from both analyses is the context of Xi's uneasy alliance with the other major, anti-western player... the Putinist-Mafia front, the arc that Vladimir Putin has built for a new Warsaw Pact, stretching from Moscow to Crimea, Ankara, Lataika, Beirut, Damascus, Baghdad to Tehran. It is a despotic swathe whose connecting tissue is not ideology -- the Russians are embryonic-czarist, Erdogan is Sunni, Assad is Alawite, and the Muktadists+Ayatollahs are Shiite. What's the connective tissue then?

The Saudis -- did you see Putin's gleeful high-five with Mohammed bin Salman, a few months ago? -- may be genuinely terrified of Iran... though I am starting to doubt it. They have every reason to join Putin. Why?

Because the common thread is an affiliation of mafia clans with wholly-owned national sovereignties. Ideology is not as important as snuffing out the rule of law. And especially a unified-shared loathing of one particular western innovation -- the non-governmental NGO.

In this context, the position of the Chinese clarifies. They share an allied goal of demolishing constitutionalism and rule of law and western confident individualism. 

At the same time, the Chinese do have an ideology and a Confucian sense of order. Moreover, they know that eventually they will have to confront these mafias. Moreover, the West is the source of all good things. It must be bled at a careful rate that keeps us too weak to interfere, but still laying golden eggs.

The Chinese also feel time is on their side. It is not on the side of the Mafias, who know they have this one decade to wreck us, or else all (for them) will be lost.

116 comments:

David Brin said...

A book that might be highly pertinent: 'So You've Been Publicly Shamed"

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594634017/

Larry Hart said...

Treebeard in the previous comments:

Anyway, men need flesh and blood enemies to fight against;


Some men do. You obviously do. It's not a universal truth.

Zepp Jamieson said...

@Larry Hart
If as it's said, average people think about other people, intelligent people consider events, and geniuses consider concepts, might the same be said about what they regard as their adversaries?
In reference to a reply you made last month that I couldn't get to: yes, I do understand why low pressure systems don't produce rain on the Moon.

Zepp Jamieson said...

Sigh.
https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2466621/cosmos-season-2-has-been-delayed-following-neil-degrasse-tyson-allegations

Cosmos Season 2 Has Been Delayed Following Neil deGrasse Tyson Allegations

David Brin said...

"Anyway, men need flesh and blood enemies to fight against;"

Those without prefrontal lobes, alas. If you've got them, then yes, you still have testosterone and adrenaline and need something to oppose. But I am fine with opposing imbeciles who would deny our children both life and the stars.

Treebeard said...

Let's see, we had the war on poverty, the war on crime, the war on drugs, the war on terror, and many others, and we lost them all. Might as well declare war on history, death, time and space and lose them too. Yeah, those wars on abstractions are the work of some real geniuses!

David Brin said...

Lost them all.... utterly delusional bullshit spread by morons. YOUR cult pushed the War on Drugs and Blue America has said enough. Meanwhile crime and poverty and terror are at all time lows numbskull.

locumranch said...


But, we must declare on 'War on Shame' if we would put an end to blackmail because the term 'blackmail' is defined as "the act (or action) of demanding money or another benefit from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising, damaging, incriminating or SHAMEFUL information about them".

And, once we have BANISHED SHAME from this progressive paradise to come, then the great & powerful would be free -- free at last, lordy lordy, free at last -- to grab those pussies, dress in blackface & send those dick pics to their heart's content, as well as lie, steal, rape, cheat & kill, without fear of shame, consequence or retribution.*

Finally, the ramifications on this little 'End to Shame' proposal pales in comparison to this massive autocratic doozy that our host let slip:

Democrats should pass rules that really change the dynamic, like permanently giving some power to the minority!

This song we've heard before, this gift of permanent power to a designated minority, and we called it FEUDALISM.

YEAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss


Best
____
*Google South Park's #ShamelessAmerica for more thoughtful social commentary on this particular topic.

Alfred Differ said...

yana, (from last post)

…we need to convince industrialists to invest, but while this is going on we need to divert the natural portion of people who deeply need to strive against something immediate…

No on two fronts.

1) Convincing the industrialists doesn't work. Believe me. We've tried. They will come along later in Act II of the play. Maybe Act III. They won't need any convincing because the money being made by others will speak to them in ways we cannot.

Very rich people are usually better at taking businesses that already make some money and figuring out how to squeeze a bit more out of them. When they do, the innovations represented by those companies make that Act II-III transition.

Musk isn't an industrialist. Neither is he a bleeding-edge innovator. He's better at it (with respect to space launch) than the rest of us were and FAR better funded. Bezos isn't an industrialist either. Both men grok Act I and II formulae for innovation plays, though.

2) Diverting the rest of us is exactly the wrong thing to do because it prevents Act I. Did long ago inhabitants of Taiwan see the South Pacific as a danger, spread out, and become Polynesians as we know them today? Did their cousins who spread eastward see the Indian Ocean as a danger? Nah. Weather can be a danger, but they probably saw dangers behind them with more clarity than those in front of them.

Act I is always about innovation and the seeking of opportunity. It can be motivated in many, many ways (don't bother trying to catalog them) and most of them fail. We need multiple authors trying to write the plays and then seeking teams to stage them for even a few of them to succeed.

Alfred Differ said...

locumranch,

I'm not convinced you know what Liberty means as distinguished from Selfish Choice.

You can try to convince me otherwise if you like. It's pretty simple and involves a relatively short answer to a short question.

Why is it beneficial to us all to protect someone else's liberty?


[Most people screw this up or see it as Revealed Truth which is almost worse.]

Alfred Differ said...

sigh. compass failure here. Indian ocean is obviously west of Taiwan. 8)

The point is that human migrations can be studied to see what ACTUALLY moves us.
Want the stars? Try to make history rhyme.

porohobot said...

>> Treebeard said...
\\Yana, I think a lot of the gung-ho people would rather fight the social engineers who think they can manipulate humanity arbitrarily toward their pet projects than be pawns in their phony wars.

Well, TB. You are making bullseye yet again.

And... what was Nacism? If not an attempt of social engineering?
What was USSR?
What Pol Pot and Kim Chen Ir were tryed to prove???

\\Might as well declare war on history, death, time and space and lose them too.

Ha-ha! Too bad. RFia already doing it.

And even looking like winning. %P

\\Yeah, those wars on abstractions are the work of some real geniuses!

Yep-yep-yep. "Putin -- the real genius" -- here you agreed with His Highness. %P


Thank you, pal. You are at least half-interesting here. As you can spout at least half-true something. %)



\\Fight space? Are you mad? Where does this mentality come from?
\\Anyway, men need flesh and blood enemies to fight against; fighting an unbeatable abstraction is absurd. In the absence of Klingons, your kind will do fine.

Well. We are in USSR... were fighting ephemeral "world imperialism" fpr a long decades.
So... this one -- NOP.
And biggest problem not in target/goal... but in that (very well known to post-soviets and I presume, not so well for others) imitate the fight MUCH MORE easy then do the Real Thing.


>> David Brin said...
\\I am fine with opposing imbeciles who would deny our children both life and the stars.

Such foul language give only more reason to fight the real persons, not some abstractions. ;)

Vau! You achieved it! You made even Locum sound adequate!
Is it was your goal all way down?!! %)))



>> Alfred Differ said...
\\Very rich people are usually better at taking businesses that already make some money and figuring out how to squeeze a bit more out of them.

Yep. Let's make inhabitants of pressure domes on the Moon... pay for their oxigen some more. %P


\\Musk isn't an industrialist.

Tesla Factories? Repetable Rockets? It was NOT his ideas?
Well... even so, person who not imagined it himself and just grok the expanation -- still are industrialist fer me.
I'd like to find one for my ideas TOO. (if only I'd know how to pull it %((()



\\Act I is always about innovation and the seeking of opportunity. It can be motivated in many, many ways (don't bother trying to catalog them) and most of them fail. We need multiple authors trying to write the plays and then seeking teams to stage them for even a few of them to succeed.

Yep.
We do like to think about oneself as high and mighty, and knowledgable...
But we are don't know and can't grok the real decision space.
(and one who will be able to do so... will be like a gods... to us)

yana said...


previously, Mike Will thought:

"“Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.”
― Marilyn Monroe
"

One of my favorite quotes from all of history:

"Get out of here you dumb motherfucking bitch."

- Billie Holiday

Spoken to Marilyn Monroe, who had barged into Lady Day's dressing room, and as it was uttered Billie was unhitching her shoe which moments later became a projectile. The left one, because it was well known that Billie Holiday kept a razor in her right shoe.

Anonymous said...

>> Alfred Differ said...
\\Why is it beneficial to us all to protect someone else's liberty?

Reciprocity?

Well. I never seen that Locum would engage in discussion.

And it only once more prove his troll nature. Trolls do not need unneeded discussion.
Where they can lose.
Only outraged back-bites. %)))


\\The point is that human migrations can be studied to see what ACTUALLY moves us.
Want the stars? Try to make history rhyme.

Sorry to say. But it's wrong.

It's like from my old readings... is it, to make automobile one's need to learn runners? How one runner better then other?



Well.

\\No I didn't ghost write that -- (I lived in Britain for a couple of years, but would never spell "optimised" that way; shudder.)

I was reading it couple posts ago.
Is it your catch phrase...
or it's... Altzgamer?

Than GO TO NEUROLOGIST ASAP!!!!

Anonymous said...

Oh, but the parasites croon “see how the price differences (energy gradients) are flattening? It’s a gooood thing! A goood thing!”

Yep. That thing called equlibrium. Where everyone of us wanna to come.
Instinctively.
Without understanding (or even WITH) that equilibrium means Death.

yana said...


Alfred Differ thought:

"Musk isn't an industrialist. Neither is he a bleeding-edge innovator. He's better at it (with respect to space launch) than the rest of us were and FAR better funded. Bezos isn't an industrialist either. Both men grok Act I and II formulae for innovation plays, though."

Apologies, those are the exact two i labeled as 'industrialists" but not in the economic sense, merely because they now hold the same place in society which was once occupied by Carnegie, Vanderbilt and Rockefeller, a collective commonly named "industrialists". If there's a better word for a magnate who turns vast wealth from their initial business into seed for an entirely new industry, advise me of that term and i will use it, rather than "industrialist."

Your point #2 seems nebulous and seems to align with what i had said earlier, even though you position it as rebuttal. In no way, do i think that making space exploration seem scary will deter anyone, there is no prevention of 'Act I' around here. It's not "the rest of us" that i'm talking about, not at all. For every Conan, there are 19 Marion librarians.

I'm saying that the whole enterprise will go more smoothly if Conan is out in space rather than left down here, free to try carving out a new Hyperborea for the glory of Crom right here on some patch of Earth. If we send all the smart and reasonable people out to fight space, the hot-heads left behind gain proportion.

David Brin said...

Am I right? I only skimmed. But it seemed he was defending blackmail and accompanying betrayal of all duties in cowardly avoidance of shame. Oy. intermittently I disbelieve this fellow is real.A jokester, mayhaps.

Anonymous said...

I made my mind about this post missive.

And as you can guess. Yeap. WHAT AN UTTER MALACKREL(malarkey) %)))

One cannot be cherry-picking about ecological system.

I have many words against. But will state here only this one exemplar proof.

That well known history of Crime Against Ecosystem, when Chinese declared sparrows "pests" and eliminated them.

Anonymous said...

>> David Brin said...
\\Yes, the trap attractor state of accumulated unaccountable power. Not just because it is unfair. Far more because it always, always, always leads to delusion, stupidity and terrible statecraft.

And only that "accumulated unaccountable power" and welth I add.
Can create some advances. Like build fortreses and bridges, pay Leonardo for his Horse, subsidize living expences for like's of Copernicus or Galileo, send expeditions of Columbus and Magellan, etc, etc...

Well. Of course "delusion, stupidity and terrible statecraft" are also present...
(I could pose futher arguments here... but they are not for auditory capble only of piligrims this, native ams that, arguments... if it need to be explained, it do not need to be explained (tm) (big grin))

porohobot said...

"""We hear a lot about how Xi and his peers blame Gorbachev for the collapse of the Soviet state but actually their grievances go much further back. They blame Kruschev. They blame Kruschev for breaking with Stalin. And they vow that they will never do to Mao what Kruschev did to Stalin.

Now, sixty years on, we’re seeing Xi making his claim to be the true Revolutionary Successor of Mao.

...
“History needs to pushed along its dialectical course,” said Xi, in his speech to mark the party’s 95th birthday in 2015. “History always moves forward and it never waits for all those who hesitate.”

The same logic applies outside the party as within.

“The decadent culture of the capitalist class and feudalistic society must be opposed,” said the authoritative Guangming Daily, expanding on another of Xi’s speeches.

The essence of Maoism and Stalinism is perpetual struggle. This is the antidote to the calcification and putrefaction that has destroyed every previous dynasty, dictatorship and empire. This is why Xi and his Red Successor peers believe that Maoism and Stalinism is still highly relevant today. Not just relevant, but existential."""


Put_in is just puppy in compare and on the strap of Xi. No doubt.

Mike Will said...

@yana
That is indeed a great quote and scene from Billie Holiday (a tragic heroine in every sense). I'll say this in Marilyn Monroe's defense: of all of her stunning measurements, the most impressive was her IQ.

Larry Hart said...

Dr Brin:

Am I right? I only skimmed. But it seemed he was defending blackmail and accompanying betrayal of all duties in cowardly avoidance of shame.


The comic strip "Mr Boffo" occasionally does a gag with the caption "People unclear on the concept". Loc fills that role twice there.

He warns that thwarting blackmail requires that people not be ashamed of their actions, and that once we've "achieved" that state, all is permitted, even the most deplorable of actions. As if the fear of blackmail is what keeps people from acting badly, and without blackmail, all restraints are off.

To that, I would counter that blackmail is a perversion of the shaming process. A true guardian of virtue out to shame someone for a vile act would just get on with making the revelation public, not hold it back as a threat in order to extort private concessions of his own.

The second concept he can't grasp is what you mean by "powers to the minority". To me, it's obvious that you mean there should be certain powers granted to all congresspeople, no matter which party happens to be in the minority at that particular time. To him, though, the status of "minority" is an unchanging fixture. He takes your proposal to grant powers "to the minority" as equivalent to granting permanent superiority to the white minority in South Africa or Rhodesia.

porohobot said...

And. Sigh.

"""The quote is from Stalin’s famous speech at the home of the writer Maxim Gorky in preparation for the first Congress of the Union of Soviet Writers in October 1932. This marked the end of Stalin’s Great Famine and Cultural Revolution"""

THAT IS the level of so called western expert of USSR and China...
they DO so primitive factual ERRORS:

not the end -- THE BEGINNING -- exactly THAT time -- autmn of 1932 it just started %(((,
in USSR there was NO cultural revolution... or, even if count for it... that pappen in times of Civil War... it was done in 20x, NOT 30x.

"""Or, to use the engineering language of the original Man of Steel - Joseph Stalin"""

What a weird phrasing. Stalin NEVER was "man of steel".

But.

"""Importantly, the Communist Party never sought to “persuade” so much as “condition”. By creating a fully enclosed system, controlling all incentives and disincentives, and “breaking” individuals physically, socially and psychologically, they found they could condition the human mind in the same way that Pavlov had learned to condition dogs in a Moscow laboratory a few years earlier."""

At least this insight IS genuine and to the point. ;)

"""This is when Mao’s men first coined the term “brainwashing” - it’s a literal translation of the Maoist term xinao, literally “washing the brain”. Mao himself preferred Stalin’s metallurgical metaphor. He called it “tempering”:"""

That is unknown to USSR. Cannot pose my judgment on it.

Only one remark. "Brainwashing", or more like "zombification"... are popular terms in Russian Discurse.
But it mean something that West do. Not some actual practice inside USSR/RFia.


"""It should be noted here that when Mao was rallying the country in 1942 he did so under the banner of ““patriotism” - because the idea of communism had absolutely no pulling power.

It’s no different today. Xi:

“Among the core values of socialism with Chinese characteristics, the deepest, most basic and most enduring is patriotism. Our modern art and literature needs to take patriotism as its muse, guiding the people to establish and adhere to correct views of history, the nation, the country and culture.

And the old warnings against subversive western liberalism haven’t changed either."""

Someone called Aloizy Shicklgruber applauding to it. %(((

Larry Hart said...

yana:

One of my favorite quotes from all of history:

"Get out of here you dumb motherfucking bitch."

- Billie Holiday


Heh. I'm trying to picture both of those expletives applying to the same individual at the same time.

Larry Hart said...

porohobot:

"""Or, to use the engineering language of the original Man of Steel - Joseph Stalin"""

What a weird phrasing. Stalin NEVER was "man of steel".


Dr Brin is making a pun that Americans understand. "The man of steel" is often used as a descriptor for the comics/tv/movie hero Superman. And the name "Stalin", which predated that particular character, literally refers to something (or someone) made of steel.

porohobot said...

>> Larry Hart said...
\\He warns that thwarting blackmail requires that people not be ashamed of their actions, and that once we've "achieved" that state, all is permitted, even the most deplorable of actions. As if the fear of blackmail is what keeps people from acting badly, and without blackmail, all restraints are off.

I cannot say what Locum thinks.
More than that I have no doubt that he doesn't mean it/doesn't undestand nothing.
Just tossing words as deck of cards...
but sometimes it shows something plausible.

And what he said here... it's that under that "blackmail free" law,
every indecent person will have perfect excuse "I did that becuse I was blackmailed" or something.

Same way as Trunp become loosen of with his indecent "grab the pussy".

YET ONE TIME -- you cannot sway hypocrite with shame, with asking to behaive yourself.
The more you allow to dilute the moral -- the happier hypocrite feel! (well, if you tighten it, it make them happy too %((()


\\ A true guardian of virtue out to shame someone for a vile act would just get on with making the revelation public...

Hypocrites WILL USE it for their benefit just Ok. Thank you. %)


\\The second concept he can't grasp is what you mean by "powers to the minority".

Just tossing words. Without understanding/care of words meanings.
That what hypocrites do all the time. Their favorite game.

That's why I constsntly saying it -- how important to be precise with definitions. ;)

Larry Hart said...

On Virginia, Republicans think we're being hypocritical by urging Northam and Herring to ignore the accusations against them as Trump and Kavanaugh did. They pontificate, "You wanted Republicans disqualified by such accusations, but you don't feel the same when it's your guys being accused."

That attitude conveniently forgets that they won the battle over whether pussy-grabbing or attempted rape in one's background is a disqualifier. Before, the sides were battling over whether or not such a standard applied. Now that we lost the battle, and the decision is that no such standard applies, I see no hypocrisy in playing the hand that has been dealt, not the hand we wish had been dealt. If Republicans had allowed Kavanaugh (or Trump) to have their nominations withdrawn over such accusations, they'd be in a better position to demand that Democrats act accordingly. They didn't, so they aren't.

Anonymous said...

.


...I see no hypocrisy in...


.

locumranch said...


Let's talk a little more about how "permanently giving power to the minority" is a recipe for feudalism & tyranny:

Europeans knew this permanently empowered minority caste as the Aristocracy; Marx knew this permanently empowered minority caste as the Rentier Class; Hindu culture knew this permanently empowered minority caste as the Brahmins; other cultures knew this permanent empowered minority as priests, chiefs, dictators, god-kings, elders & tyrants; and, our fine host refers to the process of a permanently empowered minority as 'failure mode'.

As a way of circumventing this 'permanently empowered minority' failure mode, Western Democracy tried to institute fair & frequent elections as a way of 'sharing power' with the general populace, and the Enlightened West even experienced a brief period of success with this approach but, as we all now know, the western electoral process has been thoroughly captured by a permanently empowered minority of hereditary AF (as in 'Animal Farm') politicians, unelected deep state bureaucrats & self-appointed academic elitists who will NOT yield those 'permanent empowerments' until removed by tumbrels.

Larry_H seems to understand the importance of the shame & shaming process in western culture, including how 'Everything is Permitted' in the absence of either god or shame, but he fails to understand that the shaming process IS blackmail, in & of itself, by definition, rather than a perversion thereof.

And, as far as Alfred's ask about the 'why' of protecting someone else's liberty, this has already been answered well by Porohobot who cites the rule golden of 'reciprocity', a lesson that all those who natter on about "permanently giving power to the minority" have disastrously failed to either learn or understand because...

Empowerments gifted may be taken away, for ever & always: Amen.


Best

Anonymous said...

Asocial troll-imbecile as it is. But what make IT so likeable fot our host... that is the question. %)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Treebeard said...

Poro, I find you half-interesting and half-true also. What I don't understand is how you equate Putin's Russia to the Soviet Union. What abstractions has modern Russia declared war against? What radical universalist utopian ideology are they trying to export to the world? I lived there for a year, and I never ran into anyone who thought like that or saw any red flags waving. The shocking thing about Russia is how normal the people are. And the shocking thing about the modern West, or at least a highly influential faction of its elites who propagandize and socially engineer our society 24/7, is how radical they are. I don't think you understand this, living in Ukraine. We have revolutionaries in control of our culture, busy inverting all our traditions and transorming our society, and who think they have some cosmic right to do the same to the whole world. Places like Russia, who still like some traditional things (e.g. the concept that marriage is for men and women) and have the arsenal to defend them, stand in the way of their radical global project. Compared to these radicals, “strongmen” and “populists” who say no to them and defend their own nations and traditions are hardly a threat.

Jon S. said...

It's starting to get harder to pick the useful, informational nuggets out of the stream of dross that the three bot identities have been filling the conversation with. (I mean, loco's pretty useless too, but at least he only posts under one identity...)

Is there anything to be done about this?

Larry Hart said...

Jon S:

Is there anything to be done about this?


Skip over them. There's no law that says you have to read every post.

David Brin said...

anonymous: Columbus’s voyages were paid for by the looting of Granada and the theft of wealth from Spain’s expelled Jews.

I withdraw "permanently empower the minority," which was inaccurate. My proposal - as any moron (but not imbecile) could see - was: Permanently empower every single representative to issue one subpoena per session, in the interest of the nation or else his or her home district.

Spin that.

David Brin said...

Interesting overlaps. Gavin De Becker, who was hired by Jeff Bezos to investigate the Trump-Pecker-Saudi alliance and conspiracy, also has a book called The Gift of Fear: And Other Survival Signals That Protect Us from Violence. It's less about blackmail than physical intimidation, but certainly is applicable to this ongoing topic.

And Amazon has it top-ranked among its topical books offered at steep discount.

https://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Survival-Signals-Violence/dp/0440226198

Jon S. said...

"Skip over them. There's no law that says you have to read every post."

Problem is, I scroll down past a string of long, rambling, disconnected essays of broken English (and the bot is almost as bad ;) ), and eventually I come to discover that I've missed a cogent post of three or four lines from someone like you or Alfred. It's really getting annoying lately.

Larry Hart said...

@Jon S,

Do a text search for "said..." (with the three dots included). That will take you to the start of the next comment without worrying about what comes in between.

Mike Will said...

Jon S.: "long, rambling, disconnected essays"

Welcome to social media. About as far from CERN as one can get.

Alfred Differ said...

yana,

…those are the exact two i labeled as 'industrialists" but not in the economic sense…

Ah. I think I understand better now. You were going for the same concept I know and I got too hung up on your word choice. I don't have a good, single word for them, though. To me, they are serial entrepreneurs who make good examples for the virtues we call Courage, Prudence, Justice, and Hope. All four of them are necessarily entangled in a good innovation story. The people who are best at it mix in a dash of the other three as well, but I don't know anyone who can actually do that well.

You want barbarians out there? Okay. I can see that too, but I think they are necessary here on the ground as well. The markets must exist in both places and barbarians are most inclined to disobey old-world rules. This disobedience here will be necessary for the markets to be extended. Old Guard winners will be threatened by barbarians on the frontier, thus market rules will be altered at home if no barbarians oppose.

You worry about PREVENTING the barbarians from going out there, though. On that I agree. There are a lot of people who want to perfect 'us' before going out there as if angels are waiting and will judge us upon arrival at a new world. When I was very young, I thought that sounded like a good idea. As I grew up, though, it began to look like reactionary response to the potential changes a space-faring humanity would bring back to Earth. Once I was old enough to start my own family, it sounded more like old story attempts to enforce conformity. Now I just smirk and try to think of a Conan quote to throw at those proponents.

Western markets can handle barbarians. The US is chock full of barbarians. If the rest of humanity doesn't get on with things, we barbarians are going out there to produce the next few 10's of billions of people.

Alfred Differ said...

Permanently empower every single representative...

That's a lot of summons.

That might have to be backed up by a budget enabling the subsidizing of the costs faced by those who are summoned.
I DO think it is better to spread out the power, but I'm wary of the costs this will impose on those of us forced to comply.

Alfred Differ said...

Jon S.

I start by loading the comments page and then rolling up EVERY comment using the collapse link at the top.

Then I open the comments for certain people I fully intend a full response. IF they are referring to other posts I have seen yet, I'll open them up too and work backward. The effect of this is to turn a single list of comments into a multi-branched tree. I have one conversation branch open at a time. With it open, I draft a response. Full responses are written in a word processor. When you see a few responses from me in quick succession, they should refer back to single branches that might have multiple sub-branches.

At the very end, I'll open up comments more broadly and browse/graze. Only at this point do I read sequentially. If I miss something someone else interjected, I recognize that I'm in good company because the others in the conversation did so too. I might respond while grazing too, but those are generally smaller and more spread through the day.

Some people are worth checking in on frequently. Some aren't. We each choose who is on which list. 8)


As for the bot identities, I note that they aren't advocating dissension among us. They aren't advocating hopelessness, indignation rage, or much of anything that sets of alarm bells for me. The person behind them appears to be a little hung up on word definitions and appears not to understand yet the network-like nature of conceptual meanings. That doesn't bother me much, though. I can see some of my younger self in those hang-ups. Maybe my attention management methods are helping me avoid the annoyance you feel, though.

Alfred Differ said...

We have revolutionaries in control of our culture, busy inverting all our traditions and transforming our society, and who think they have some cosmic right to do the same to the whole world.

Wow. Treebeard's definition of our barbaric nature is actually pretty good.
When I argue that the US is full of barbarians, I'm using a definition that is awful close to his.
The difference between us is I don't think it is an elite within the US doing it.
It's most of us and we are far more powerful than our government can ever be.

David Brin said...

Interesting approach Alfred.

By the way, since we got Ilithi Dragon back part-time... and TimWTacitus is at least lurking... whatever happened to Catfish n' Cod?

Duncan Cairncross said...

Permanently empower every single representative.

Dr Brin said subpoena each every year

Maybe one for each representative per term - to be taken when they want

porohobot said...

>> David Brin said...
\\anonymous: Columbus’s voyages were paid for by the looting of Granada and the theft of wealth from Spain’s expelled Jews.

That's exactly my point.
Wouldn't you be so kind, and comprehend all implications yourself, without me going into details and writing lengthy posts with my "broken English"? %P
Wouldn't it be great? %)


>> Treebeard said...
\\Poro, I find you half-interesting and half-true also. What I don't understand is how you equate Putin's Russia to the Soviet Union.

It's easy to answer... but not easy to explain. It's guts feeling, intuition, actual living experience, etc.


\\What abstractions has modern Russia declared war against?

Same as always "against subversive western liberalism". ;)


\\What radical universalist utopian ideology are they trying to export to the world?

Fascists/Nazi/Nationalistic Utopia -- Russian World/Peace (in russian it's one word for both -- "MIR"). Yeah, I know, it's loony. But so was germans under Aloizy. %(((

So they, Put_in first of all, declare their fair right to be loony. Under title "You did allowed it FOR Reich, did Munich Collusion with him, to free his hands to strike ON US. So, you ove US. Big Time."

Doesn't it look familiar? ;) Such attitude.


\\ I lived there for a year, and I never ran into anyone who thought like that or saw any red flags waving. The shocking thing about Russia is how normal the people are.

We, Ukrainians, thought so too. That they are normal. Until. %(((


\\And the shocking thing about the modern West, or at least a highly influential faction of its elites who propagandize and socially engineer our society 24/7, is how radical they are.

I presume you just don't know. Didn't experienced it. What REAL radicalism is. Sigh. %(((
Read about Pol Pot or something.


\\I don't think you understand this, living in Ukraine. We have revolutionaries in control of our culture, busy inverting all our traditions and transorming our society, and who think they have some cosmic right to do the same to the whole world.

They. Vatniks. Constantly mumbling that it's Ukraine NOW derailed by nationalists and revolutionaties.

If only they'd be half-right... at least 10%... 1% right. Big Sigh. %(((


\\ Places like Russia, who still like some traditional things (e.g. the concept that marriage is for men and women) and have the arsenal to defend them, stand in the way of their radical global project. Compared to these radicals, “strongmen” and “populists” who say no to them and defend their own nations and traditions are hardly a threat.

And pack of ICBMs too? Well, it's your choice. How to react on the pointed to yourself gun.
Trying to ignore it, like ostrich -- that's viable reaction too. Especially if you far away, beyond two oceans.

But oceans is not definite border wall with modern war techs.

porohobot said...

>> Alfred Differ said...
//The effect of this is to turn a single list of comments into a multi-branched tree

That thing we, in Russian District of Inet have for years. %P

And not as some losy substitute. But actual multi-branched tree. With colapses. ;)

Well. And yeah. Making quotes for each topic, what makes people here so annoyed, is habit from there too. %(


\\The person behind them appears to be a little hung up on word definitions and appears not to understand yet the network-like nature of conceptual meanings.

Thank you for the kind/considerate words.

But quite contrary, I understand "network-like nature of conceptual meanings".
How it used to make fake notions and propaganda in the hands of vatniks. %P
They teach us ukrainians such things CONSTANTLY. For a last FIVE years.

But you still not feel it enough. Even after Trump.
That is my concern here. If RFia would be effective with stumbling, or even subverting USA... it poses GREAT DANGER for my Ukraine.
And Put_in's missives, fakenews, propaganda are quite effective... what you can see on TB and Locum examples.


\\That doesn't bother me much, though. I can see some of my younger self in those hang-ups.

Well. It's very interesting point to me. Can you give some more details about it? If it'll be not a bother for you, of course.



\\Maybe my attention management methods are helping me avoid the annoyance you feel, though.

Thank you.
Now I see how rightful ams create/twists their nes... (inpenetrable?) information bubbles around oneself. %)


\\As I grew up, though, it began to look like reactionary response to the potential changes a space-faring humanity would bring back to Earth. Once I was old enough to start my own family, it sounded more like old story attempts to enforce conformity.

Excellent insights!

porohobot said...

>> Alfred Differ said...

About that "ego" thing you pointed out.
I gave it some thoughts ziz days. Also listening to excellent suggestion from link in previous post comment -- that it's important to think about opponents POV, even if it looks "outrageously wrong".

First. I tried to think, that all shallow level of thoughts our host showed to me in previous post... it's just a game. He is bored. And trying to have some fun in over-trolling the troll game. And look how it'll respond.

But after thought, I came to conclusion that it do not add up.

Then.

Second thought that I tried -- what if it is real and genuine level of understanding of our host of such complex things as ecology and/or development of agriculture techs.

Well. I asked myself. WHEN I learned such stuff?
Actually, it was at school. And it was new and facultative course. Hardly interesting for too many.
And after that I didn't read pretty much anything about such topics.
Being busy with learning professional stuff, etc.

So. It become crystal clear. That it's quite possible. That intelligent person, with many honorifics, famous for his knak in understanding many different and complex things.
Still.
Could NOT KNOW shit in such things, I dim as the basic of the basiest. Like what is biosphere is, or what stages of development of agriculture, and how they shaped historical development.

And if it's true. That Revelaion of Truth is horrible, horrible, it's just horrible.
It inevitable mean that idiocracy, that like in film "Idiocracy" is not in far future, but just around us. %(
Because, if even educated and conciderate about knowing more person. Still have so gomeric size lacks of knowladge.
What we can wait from so called "policy makers"???

Then it became not so surprising that we have Trump. And his fixation on The Wall.
It's not a scam. He might really, genuinely thinking that Wall will help with human and narcotic trafficking.
And so the same it is with Put_in, and Xi, and Un, etc,etc... %((((
They all seemingly do think that ALL they do is not just right things to do. That It's incredibly smart TO DO. %(((

It's HORRIBLE.

Larry Hart said...

Alfred Differ:

"Permanently empower every single representative..."

... but I'm wary of the costs this will impose on those of us forced to comply.


Is this particular concern all that different from the current state where the majority party (but only the majority party) can issue subpoenas?

Anonymous said...

We have continuos history of the same issue here in Ukraine.

When some political force sits in minority... it screams about how they'll give some *essential* (as they do say) right to the minority when they become majority.

And promptly forget about such promises. %P When become majority.

Larry Hart said...

For those of you (like me) who follow Jim Wright at Stonekettle Station, it's understandable if you stopped checking the site after Thanksgiving when he went two months or so without a new post.

However, since then, he's been on a roll. Five new posts in just the past two weeks or so.

http://www.stonekettle.com/

Larry Hart said...

http://www.stonekettle.com/

This was probably the moment that most people remember.

When Trump tried to take credit for the number of women now serving in congress – much the same way, I guess, as the Titanic disaster took credit for improved maritime safety regulations which required ships to carry enough lifeboats for everybody and slow down when driving blind into an icefield.

This was an astounding moment, especially when female Democrats leaped to their feat en masse and started shouting USA! USA! and forced Trump to acknowledge their presence as more than just a talking point.

You weren’t supposed to do that, Trump said.

Women are doing a lot of things guys like Trump think they aren’t supposed to do.

Better get used it.

Tim Wolter said...

Well, I'm not exactly lurking. I look in on the conversation every few days but like others am finding it harder to be interactive with the higher burden of posts from a few commentators. Now don't get me wrong, if said individuals want to enlighten us on science fiction topics, or the politics and culture of Mexico and the Ukraine, great, we have much to learn. But in my opinion their curious insights on American matters have significantly altered the chaff to wheat ratio. It's like trying to discuss philosophy in a middle school cafeteria.

I've also been damned busy. It is the time pressured finale of the highly compressed FIRST robotics build season. Made worse, far worse than I can express, by the vile weather that has cancelled so many sessions. Also, for reasons that can most likely be attributed to perverse cruelty, the kids have once again decided to ignore coach suggestions and build a robot that nobody else would even consider, one that will be a source of wonder and curiosity at competition. Whether it will be a curious failure or a dark horse contenda' remains to be seen.

Here's a quick YouTube look from a week ago demonstrating proof of concept.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcBIAroRkZg&t=1s

I will try to be around more after the Roboterdammerung comes to a glorious or inglorious conclusion.

TW/Tacitus

porohobot said...

>> Tim Wolter said...
\\But in my opinion their curious insights on American matters have significantly altered the chaff to wheat ratio. It's like trying to discuss philosophy in a middle school cafeteria.

That exactly what pose the MOST problem for me as foreigner to understand.
Qualitative remarks.
Because I don't know nothing about common routine in USA.
Is it good to discuss philosophy in school? Or is it bad?

Thank you in advance.

Mike Will said...

@Time Wolter: Go FIRST. Go Kamen. Go STEM. Go Medical devices.
The best treatment for autism I've ever seen is a Raspberry Pi.

@porohot: American matters often confuse me too, and I'm a Canadian who worked there a lot. My grandfather called them "The Excited States of America". Now I understand.

Mike Will said...

sorry for the typos, my hands ne marche pas today

Tim Wolter said...

Porohobot

It would be an error to rely on my writing style to understand common American expressions and idioms.

TW/Tacitus

TheMadLibrarian said...

I think Duncan is onto something, but I'd take it a step further. Like a motion being heard and seconded, make each subpoena have a 'second', where you are able to convince at least one other person to support your need for one. It may end up being a 'quid pro quo' where people trade upvotes for support at other times, but it may keep frivolous subpoenas (!) from being considered. Important when one or the other party is liable to weaponize them.

TheMadLibrarian said...

Perhaps not frivolous, but nuisance, intended to delay and obfuscate. SMH over the notion that something as serious as a congressional subpoena could be demoted to the level of illegitimately claiming a copyright on YouTube.

David Brin said...

Um. Uh. Clearly the producers - who have meddled in our society to make us better reality-TV for amused-appalled aliens- have upped their bet on Idiocracy.

https://www.aol.com/article/entertainment/2019/02/11/fox-and-friends-host-pete-hegseth-hasnt-washed-his-hands-in-10-years-germs-are-not-a-real-thing/23666798/

Larry Hart said...

@Dr Brin,

If only. Maybe Republicans will follow Hegseth's lead and get sick from diseases they don't believe in.

Like when Republicans threatened to boycott the census in 2010. If only they had followed through on that threat.


David Brin said...

Tim, great stuff re FIRST. Had dinner with Dean Kamen at an XPrize conference. Amazing fellow who has changed the world.

----
Treebeard: “ What I don't understand is how you equate Putin's Russia to the Soviet Union.

Hmmm dunno. Like maybe ‘cause it’s all the same/worst guys from the USSR who are running it today? Using mostly the same methods? Could that be it? Using the same playbook and schemes out of the same buildings?

Oh, but ignore all that because they dropped the hammer-and-sickle pins! And they openly call themselves billionaires. (It’s okay; two out of four of Trump’s secret debriefing meetings (with no US officials present) will be with commie dictators who DO still use hammer-and-sickle pins. The 4th will be with our deepest pals who love us so, the Saudi r’oil house.

This article tracks the way we blew the end of the Cold War, as the worst (by far) U.S. president of the 20th Century – George H. W. Bush – sent over pals who “advised” members of the Yeltsin government how to steal nearly all Soviet state assets and create a new Mafia empire. Those pals then used that base of operation to take over the United States of America.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/how-kleptocracy-came-to-america/580471/

--
porohobot : “Wouldn't you be so kind, and comprehend all implications yourself,”

While I agree with many things that porohobot says, I have warned porohobot to be less-touchy, sensitive and quick-to-anger. And I have suggested that he needs to post ½ as many words.

If this is going to be your normal behavior, then please go find another place that will offend you less.

I am going back to ignoring him through February.

Larry Hart said...

@Dr Brin,

What, only 28 days?

You should try giving up trolls for Lent some year.

porohobot said...

>> David Brin said...
\\George H. W. Bush – sent over pals who “advised” members of the Yeltsin government how to steal nearly all Soviet state assets and create a new Mafia empire.

As always. USA kremlinologists. Who do not know a shit about Hard Facts.

Putin was henchmen under St.Peterburg's major Sobchak.
Stated there by already instituated "russian mafia"/Andropov's KGB,
to support connections with Real Russian Mafia -- criminals, which always was "klasovo blizkie"/near class foot soldiers of regime.

And "assets" was stealed by inflation.

And...

Well, RTFM! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_career_of_Vladimir_Putin


\\While I agree with many things that porohobot says, I have warned porohobot to be less-touchy, sensitive and quick-to-anger.

It's you are who posing factually incorrect arguments here...

"""David Brin said...
anonymous: Columbus’s voyages were paid for by the looting of Granada and the theft of wealth from Spain’s expelled Jews."""

exile of Jews was at 1492.
initial letter from Columbus at 1493.

and... its impossible to fund anything with something that would be achieved only as result of endeavour. So that part about looting is logicaly false.

and... fleet need to be built and supported first hand too. And by whom if not by feudals?

You incorrect with reading my reaction. I'm worse, much-much worse then angry/touchy. I'm amused. %)
Level of your arguments peaking my curiosity.
Well. Check your reaction to Locum. And you'd have ½ of my reaction on your arguments. %)))


>> Larry Hart said...
\\What, only 28 days?
\\You should try giving up trolls for Lent some year.

Calling fullfledged, but disliked government -- mafia.
Calling bona fide capitalistic elite -- commies.

Well. To call sincerily trying to communicate person -- a troll.
That looks at least... successively. "Tomu scho poslidovnii", yep. %)

porohobot said...

SHIT! %(((((

\\exile of Jews was at 1492.
\\initial letter from Columbus at 1493.

my error... you can laugh all you want %(
it was letter with results of expedition.


And though circumstances there was not that simple as "wealth from Spain’s expelled Jews."

THIS MY POINT is totally wrong. And I admitting it clearly.

porohobot said...

Laugh again %(((

"""Queen Isabella's forces had just conquered the Moorish Emirate of Granada"""

Your american school trivia is not my strong point.

Shame on me. %(((

My sincere apologies

David Brin said...

In his site about deep-diving to oceanic trenches Victor Vescovo mentions Startide Rising:
https://fivedeeps.com/home/technology/names/

Kool stuff.

Anonymous said...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_María_(ship)

The other ships of the Columbus expedition were the smaller caravel-type ships Santa Clara; one particular ship sailed for 46 years and was remembered as La Niña ("The Girl"), and La Pinta ("The Painted"). All these ships were second-hand (if not third- or more) and were not intended for exploration.


PS It's not for you, our generous host.
It's in response to Alfred Differ thought "human migrations can be studied to see what ACTUALLY moves us".

Larry Hart said...

porohobot:

Well. To call sincerily trying to communicate person -- a troll.


It's not always about you.

I actually did give up reading trolls for Lent a few years ago, long before you were here.

David Brin said...

Gawd. He just wasted forty lines whining about a non-disagreement.

Dig it. Isabella went into DEBT -- in advance -- to finance both attacking Granada and Columbus. By exiling the Jews she canceled that debt. You disagree (and scream about it) over nothing.

And this is why I am starting to pay no attention to your complaints.

Which is a pity, because sometimes you seem a smart and cogent fellow. Your eastern perspectives are often very interesting!

But your short temper and sense of always-wounded pride... and outpouring of far, far too many words... mean we are starting to lose interest in anything you say

Larry Hart said...

(technically, I gave up "deplorables")

porohobot said...

\\You disagree (and scream about it) over nothing.

I made mistake.
And promptly admitted it.
And I will not ask here to give me a slack and to forget. That is stupid mistake. And now it need to be properly ashamed, so my internal subconscious advocate would not have place for appelation.

My genuine argument was -- do you remember it? -- was about that it's nasty feu-dals that made possible this, and many other impotant civilization advances...
of which you commented only cherry-peeked ones.

I'll admit it YET ONE TIME and as many time as it would be remembered.

I MESSED UP. MADE STUPID MISTAKE. AND LOST.

But it do not make your position more correct. Just shows my low ability to nail your falsehood. %(

And that is. Regular problem. %(( Like with that Climate Change Denial for example.

It's TOO hard to make an argument. Same time scientifically correct... and simple. And persuasive enough. %(((


\\But your short temper and sense of always-wounded pride...

You are judging my attitude wrong here.(is it because of culture differemces?) What a scientist are you? (wondering)
That you do not see it yourself -- that need to be precise with one's understanding?
Be constantly vigilant in pursuing truth and banishing errors.

Mike Will said...

@Dr. Brin re:deep dives

If you ever cross paths with James Cameron (Marianas dive), I know he's an Asimov fan (esp "Fantastic Voyage"). That 1966 sub shrinking scene is one of the most classic in SF. Right up there with the Krell caves from "Forbidden Planet" ten years earlier. I think the daunting scenes needed for "Foundation" have been a major stumbling block in the many failed attempts. Terminus and Trantor alone would cost too much. "Foundation's Triumph" might work as it's largely aboard ships and modest settings.

Larry Hart said...

Mike Will:

Right up there with the Krell caves from "Forbidden Planet"


"The number ten raised almost literally to the power of infinity!"

:)

reason said...

The accusation against Northam (but not Herring) are minor in comparison (technically both Trump, Kavenaugh and Herring h been accused of crimes, all be it difficult to prosecute). What Northam did was probably not even regarded in bad taste at the time in the circles he moved in. He badly messed up his apology though. Republicans never apologise, and that is their worst sin. Arrogance and disrespect.

Larry Hart said...

reason:

Kavenaugh and Herring h been accused of crimes, all be it difficult to prosecute)


You're not talking about Herring, are you? He's the one who admitted to blackface without anyone else even bringing it up.

I think you're talking about the Lt Governor, Fairfax. And yes, the Kavanaugh Standard, having been settled by the Senate, should apply: Believe the accusers, but keep him in office anyway. It's not hypocrisy to live by the rules that you used to oppose, but are now established law.

If anything, getting rid of Fairfax should have a higher bar than refusing to seat Kavanaugh did. Kavanaugh was in a job interview situation, whereas Fairfax is in a "firing for cause" situation.


Republicans never apologise, and that is their worst sin. Arrogance and disrespect.


But it's also a winning strategy for them.

David Brin said...

Instead of chilling out and calming down, all he can do is scream about being offended because we notice his screaming.

Calm the heck DOWN fellah. If you continue having a short fuse, you will be ignored. And that would be sad, because you seem a person with interesting insights.

Assume... "If I am angry right now... maybe I misinterpreted something. Maybe I will wait and respond tomorrow. And complain less. And use fewer words."

Larry Hart said...

Benedict Donald said:

If there is going to be peace and legislation,
There cannot be war and investigation.


It occurs to me belatedly that the House Democrats should take him at his word (yeah, I know, but run with it) and agree to suspend any investigations of Trump and his family as long as the Senate passes and Trump signs any legislation passed by the House. Oh, and that Trump also appoint (and the Senate confirm) judges based upon recommendations from House Democrats. As long as the White House and Senate go along with that agenda, my girlfriend Nancy will be willing to put investigations on hold.

It would never last--which just puts us back at the status quo--but as a "Mike Doonesbury's Summer Daydream" kind of thing, I could see some potential there.

(Maybe offer Trump his $5.7 billion in return for the Senate convicting Kavanaugh in an impeachment trial and replacing him with Merrick Garland)

A.F. Rey said...

You worry about PREVENTING the barbarians from going out there, though.... Now I just smirk and try to think of a Conan quote to throw at those proponents.

I always like to think about Shaw's quote: "...he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature." :)

David Brin said...

Larryhart, tasty idea.

Alfred Differ said...

Mike Will,

The Excited States of America

Heh. That's a good example of why we need to treat y'all nice. We need someone friendly to hold the mirror up so we can see ourselves correctly. I'm far more likely to trust Canada and the UK to do that than anyone else. 8)

I'm going to borrow that phrase now.
It has some possibilities when mixed with a small physics/chemistry metaphor. 8)

Mike Will said...

@Alfred Differ
That's nice, grampa was a beautifully simple and honest man, I miss him greatly. This world could do with a bit of light amplification :)

David Brin said...

Alfred: "We need someone friendly to hold the mirror up so we can see ourselves correctly. I'm far more likely to trust Canada and the UK to do that than anyone else. 8)"

Wait'll you watch the TV series THE HANDMAID'S TALE. Like BattleStar Galactica, it is stunningly illogical, even more so. Nothing in any episode could conceivably happen... nor will it convince anyone to change sides. But it is very well-written/acted on a scene and character level. And it sure does gird folks to want to prevent such shit.

Oh, and Canada is a very busy player in the plot.

Larry Hart said...

Speaking of The Handmaid's Tale, what is "Gilead" a reference to? The name obviously has some meaning as an allusion, but when I look it the word up online, all I get are references to The Handmaid's Tale itself.

TheMadLibrarian said...

Biblically, Gilead is a mountainous region where three of the Tribes of Judah lived. It is also the place where Jacob took his family after marrying 2 sisters (Leah and Rachel), because he was afraid of his double-dealing father-in-law trying to pull a fast one. The family thing didn't take, so Jacob's wife, Rachel, gave Jacob her handmaid so he would at least have children. There is a nice rundown here:
https://www.bustle.com/p/what-does-gilead-mean-in-the-handmaids-tale-the-name-of-the-series-setting-has-biblical-roots-54984

WAN said...

I read the main posts of our host. Sometimes, skimming these comments I feel like I'm back in Heechee Heaven listening to the incoherent rantings of the dead men. Boy did Fred Pohl nail it.

Curious what you think of this idea: basically what if a Democratic candidate just pretended Trump didn't exist and started running a campaign now against Pence. https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1094708774349213702

Sorry for trolling, David. I promise to stay away from the dream couch for awhile :)

Anonymous said...

You like to talk "Enlightenment this, Human Advances that",
but not give it a deeper thought.

Another word. You like Pork, but not very fond of herding swines. %P

But. As we can see. Any humans advances need to be performed by someone.
And for that carefully thought off, planned and performed according to that plan.
With vigour and resolve.


That. What we can see from discussed examples.
Even such trivial (from our standpoint) endeavour as Columbus Journey.
Was needed careful planning in advance and performing extravagant deeds (like that Jews exile you mentioned).

I'll add yet one example. From modern time.
When Musk started to build the Tesla Factory... he hired engineers from Peru for that.
To cut costs and cease the unions, etc.

To cut it short.

To make some real advance one need to dirt his hand. While someone else would like to stay in all white. While looking and judging from the side-lines.

David Brin said...

Huh.

1. Rachel's use of a handmaid is actually obscure, especially since Leah gave Jacob 12 sons! And Rachel later gives him Joseph.

The much bigger handmaid story - that I thought THT would be about - was Sarah giving her handmaid Hagar to Abraham. A MUCH bigger story, taking many paragraphs, in which the handmaid and her son are really interesting characters, driven out by Sarah after she gives birth to Isaac. Hagar and Ishmael (yes, call him Ishmael) are claimed as forebears by the Arabs and given chapters in the Koran.

Bu that may be why Atwood went for the other story. Because Hagar got high billing.

BTW "Call me Ishmael" is to telegraph that the narrator of Moby Dick was the illegitimate sone of a rich man.

Alas, there are so many aspects to THT. Setting aside that there are no elements that are remotely logical or had a remote chance of actually happening (as opposed to the much more mundane and dangerous confederate treason we face today.) The survival of Alaska and Hawaii testifies to the loyalty of the US Navy, not only in sea power but the nukes that counter those of the Gilean Air Force. Which means, of course, that no shipping would leave any west coast ports and likely California and Arizona would be in Mexico.

Why would Gilead want them?

2. WAN clever idea! Retweeted.

Mike Will said...

The stable genius is now issuing EOs on AI. I trust that he has thoroughly weighed the risks and benefits and has carefully plotted out the near term geopolitical implications. After all, these are not issues to be left to neophytes.

porohobot said...

>> Mike Will said...
\\That's nice, grampa was a beautifully simple and honest man, I miss him greatly. This world could do with a bit of light amplification :)

Well. What can I say. Only "I told you". And... my condolences. (sad)

>> WAN said...
\\...back in Heechee Heaven listening to the incoherent rantings of the dead men. Boy did Fred Pohl nail it.

Yeap-y!


>> Alfred Differ said...
\\Heh. That's a good example of why we need to treat y'all nice. We need someone friendly to hold the mirror up so we can see ourselves correctly.

Well. RFia IS such a mirror. But distorted(?) one. Like in Kay/Gerda fairytale...


>> David Brin said...
\\Instead of chilling out and calming down, all he can do is scream about being offended because we notice his screaming.

That's for me?

Well. It's probably cultural differences.(I don't like to think that you are just playing it out for your benefit)

That thing you interpret as "screaming" or "wounded pride". You take hard (self)irony for a "screaming".

My problem. As I see it. It's my inexperiencedness.
That I unable to place decisive argument.
And that makes me sad and appalling... of myself first of all. %(


But my missive remains unchanged.
""That you do not see it yourself -- that need to be precise with one's understanding?
Be constantly vigilant in pursuing truth and banishing errors.""

Alfred Differ said...

Yah. Haven't been able to bring myself to watching The Handmaid's Tale. Some stories just piss me off and I really shouldn't read or watch them. With what I've heard people saying, I decided that was one of them.

Not sure I need it, though. Took a drive with my brother when I was about 19 to visit some pretty places in Utah. I lived in Las Vegas at the time, so they weren't far away. I vividly remember my internal response while we were stopped along the highway at one of those viewpoints where a few cars can park to let people get out, say 'oooh' and 'awww', take a picture, and then drive off again. The area was small, so I could overhear the young Mormon family next to us. After hearing a snippet of how the wife related to her husband, I made a vow I've stuck with all my life NEVER to walk his path. He wasn't abusive and she wasn't unwilling. It's just that he was obviously going to have to make all the decisions for the family. She totally deferred to him. Utterly. No saccharine. Not Stepford-like. She could obviously think, but chose subservience. Struck me as lines straight out of a horror movie. Struck me as slavery.

In hindsight, I can see that I was brought up to prefer something else. She was the opposite. Still gives me the shivers.

Alfred Differ said...

porohobot,

I don't accept RFia as such a mirror.
I accept them as an excellent example of a social model that must be fought across the world until it gives up it's slaves.

Beaten & castrated. No memetic offspring.

There are other examples too and I'm willing to fight them.
The way to do it without destroying the world is to become a space-faring civilization.

porohobot said...

>> Alfred Differ said...

Here. That issues we discussed here. Around Columbus Journey.
It could be a good Model Example for exploration issues.
Indeed, what we see:
it need to be some political decisions to support and fund such endeavours,
need to be some carefuly thought off idea (I mean how Columbus used winds patterns),
technical means, even abundant ones, like that old ships,
etc-etc...

that can be applied to our plans to Conquer the Space. ;)


\\I don't accept RFia as such a mirror.

It's about how THEY are. Not how you are. %(


\\I accept them as an excellent example of a social model that must be fought across the world until it gives up it's slaves.
\\Beaten & castrated. No memetic offspring.

I fully simpathise with you on that.
But that not an easy task.
That need careful planning and thorough understanding of the matters.
Swearing and namecalling ARE NOT enough.

And it will not wear off like small pox or flu... by itself.
We need some strong hightech medicine for it.

progressbot said...

\\The way to do it without destroying the world is to become a space-faring civilization.

And (singular) way to become the space-faring civilization -- to develop Exponential Techs.

Greg Ranzoni said...

Dosen't anyone find it mildly ironic that a lot of people are supporting a blackmailed vitcim who is delveping surveillance techology?

Anonymous said...

Answerd. It's not hypocrisy if it's law.

Larry Hart said...

Alfred Differ:

Yah. Haven't been able to bring myself to watching The Handmaid's Tale. Some stories just piss me off and I really shouldn't read or watch them. With what I've heard people saying, I decided that was one of them.


I was the same with the new Battlestar Galactica. My wife thought it was great, but I couldn't bring myself to watch it.

The advent of the tv Handmaid's Tale, and Man in the High Castle before it moved me to read the books rather than to watch tv versions. And I had only heard of Margaret Atwood's name in relation to The Handmaid's Tale. I never knew how prolific a writer she is. My library has like two freakin' shelves full of her books. More than Ian Flemming. :)

progressbot said...

\\The stable genius is now issuing EOs on AI.

Mundane task. %) We still don't know what our own *intelligence* is.
So it's like trying to forbid Russell's Teapot. %P

Larry Hart said...

Anonymous:

Answerd. It's not hypocrisy if it's law.


Well, if you're talking about what I said, it wasn't exactly that.

When there's a fight over what the rules are going to be, and the result ends up being different--even opposite--of what I wanted them to be or fought for them to be, I can still call for myself or my own side to be treated equally under the (newly-established) rules as our opponents are. It is not hypocritical to demand enforcement of the rules we're all supposed to live by just because I would have made those rules different had I the power to do so.

The ones who confirmed Kavanaugh but insist Fairfax must be impeached are the hypocrites. They're insisting on a different standard for the Democrat than the one they actually applied to the Republican.

Anonymous said...

\\It is not hypocritical to demand enforcement of the rules we're all supposed to live by just because I would have made those rules different had I the power to do so.

You even do not know what you just did. %)

You just destroyed ground under your feets. Needed to fight akin to Trump, Put_in... or Locum.

If you have nothing agains new rules imposed on you... why'd you even start to fight em?

Mike Will said...

We can't wait for NASA forever. If we're going to compete with China, we (Canada) need to get to space right now. Thank you Bezos. Next is Musk. Allons-y.
https://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN1PP2MC-OCABS?_lrsc=8dcbd329-d165-4438-86d3-1494bcc2c84a

BTW This isn't hucksterish asteroid mining - it's basic survival in the 21st century. Troglodytes can't get us to the stars.

Larry Hart said...

Anonymous:

You just destroyed ground under your feets. Needed to fight akin to Trump, Put_in... or Locum.


No, I didn't. :)


If you have nothing agains new rules imposed on you... why'd you even start to fight em?


Dave Sim once said, "Sometimes, jumping on the bandwagon is the best way to demonstrate that the wheels have already fallen off." By accepting the Republican-imposed rules and insisting that everyone (including the Republicans) live by them, we eventually force them to tacitly acknowledge that they don't believe their own arguments or live up to their own supposed ideals.

Anonymous said...

No, I didn't. :)

Denial of Reality. Good to go!

Larry Hart said...

So, "Only the true Messiah would deny His divinity"?

Larry Hart said...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/opinion/bezos-trump-pecker.html

Maybe we should talk about Bezos, because it involves a lot of double entendres and it reads like the next installment in the E.L. James series. Let’s call it: “50 Shades Richer.” Billionaires! Sex! Political intrigue! Allegations of blackmail! And a storybook villain named David Pecker, which is a name worthy of a Charles Dickens character.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that Dickens characters sometimes have names like "Master Bates".

Anonymous said...

Larry Hart said...
So, "Only the true Messiah would deny His divinity"?


It's not about some philosophical paradoxes.
It's about real social dynamics.
Reactionaries, like Putin, like Trump -- do start using techniques that in before was used by revolutionaries.
Successful techniques.

Alfred Differ said...

Porohobot,

\\I don't accept RFia as such a mirror.

It's about how THEY are. Not how you are. %(


Meh. I don’t care. They can hold up a mirror all they like, but I’m not looking at it. I don’t accept their input. I AM willing to accept the input of certain Russian individuals, but not their system of governance.

But that not an easy task.
That need careful planning and thorough understanding of the matters.
Swearing and namecalling ARE NOT enough.


Of course it isn’t easy. Beating them in the 20th century wasn’t either, but that’s exactly what we did.

You worry too much about the careful planning stuff. The US is a nation of about 400 million barbarians. We have people colluding with Russian intelligence and others plotting revenge for the 2016 election. What are we likely to do next? Most likely everything we can imagine because we have no way to prevent such things. The American People don’t plan and coordinate as one unit. We plan and coordinate and finance and act as a zillion smaller units capable of doing things our government can’t possibly do.

When our host uses what appears to be name-calling, he’s actually signaling within the groups pointing to where attention is needed. You probably can’t see that from where you are, but I can. There is an immune system analogy that works well. He’s playing the role of a social T-cell. Those cells send messages to others that act… or not… depending on the strength of the message. Name-calling is useful in giving strength to the message. Considering our hosts’ fluency in both the language and culture, I encourage you to consider the possibility that he knows what he’s doing.

Progressbot,

And (singular) way to become the space-faring civilization -- to develop Exponential Techs.

We are already on a curve that appears exponential. Remember that such curves appear slow and flat at first, but any time series that has statements like “grows 2%/year” qualifies.

Porohobot said...

>> Alfred Differ said...

Thank you Alfred. You are worthy opponent. Here. (hope I'm too)

(reply was lost, so this new one I'll try without heavy quoting)

THEY have ICBMs. So, it's impossible to ignore them. For a sane one.

And it was not you who defeated em. They/we (USSR/RFia) lost because of internal disbalances and mismanagment. I know.
And Putin thinks he know and have fixed all errors. And know how, and free to (mis)use all YOUR strongpoints/vulnerabilities.
Poisonous mix.
And there is China to boot.

Name-calling its Double-Edged sword, no, more like Ring of Power. Makes one feel invulnerable and powerful. But...
Well, who am I to deny him his little "preci... pleasure"? I don't care. As far as it not related to Ukraine.

That T-cell response looks auto-immune. Take for example this post missive -- to kill the "Wall Street parasites".
That "parasites" that made USA that powerful as it is now???


Electronics are on the far side of s-curve already. What's new one?
My concern is. Free markets doesn't care about morality.
So. New tech could be used as weapon and/or mind-control.
And there'd be WW3. That one, after which, as Einstein said "...fourth will be with pebbles".

PS How this my terse style to you? Non-wordy. Could it be maybe better?

Anonymous said...

I remember stating at the outset that the prognosticators were wrong.

http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2016/11/we-are-in-it-all-right-but-figuratively.html

More than two wasted years later the circus is finally leaving town, as I predicted:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-has-uncovered-no-direct-evidence-conspiracy-between-trump-campaign-n970536?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma

Although at least Trump is onboard with regime change for oil. From Iraq to Syria was never enough.

Paul Revile said...

Previous comment removed the name for some reason, sorry.

Larry Hart said...

@Paul Revile,

Are you reading the same article I am?

...

The Senate Intelligence Committee has been conducting the sole bipartisan inquiry. The committee has sifted through some 300,000 documents, investigators tell NBC News, including classified intelligence shedding light on how the Russians communicated about their covert operation to interfere in the 2016 election.

U.S. intelligence agencies assess that the operation began as an effort to sow chaos and morphed into a plan to help Trump win. It included the hacking and leaking of embarrassing Democratic emails and the use of bots, trolls and fake accounts on social media to boost Trump, criticize Democrat Hillary Clinton and exacerbate political differences.

Predictably, Burr's comments led Trump to tweet that he had been fully vindicated, which is not the case.

"Senator Richard Burr, The Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, just announced that after almost two years, more than two hundred interviews, and thousands of documents, they have found NO COLLUSION BETWEEN TRUMP AND RUSSIA!" Trump tweeted Sunday. "Is anybody really surprised by this?"

Democratic Senate investigators say it may take them six or seven months to write their final report once they are done with witness interviews. They say they have uncovered facts yet to be made public, and that they hope to make Americans more fully aware of the extent to which the Russians manipulated the U.S. presidential election with the help of some Trump officials, witting or unwitting.

...

Anonymous said...

Truth Is In the Eye of the Beholder %)

Anonymous said...

The Cosmic Schmuck Principle holds that if you don't wake up, once a month at least, and realize you have recently been acting like a Cosmic Schmuck again, then you will probably go on acting like a Cosmic Schmuck forever; but if you do, occasionally, recognize your Cosmic Schmuckiness, you might begin to become a little less Schmucky than the general human average at this primitive stage of terrestrial evolution. - p. 21, Natural Law: Or Don't Put A Rubber On Your Willy

jim said...

David has posted about Tim Morgan's blog Surplus Energy Economics a couple of times.

Tim has a new post up and this is the conclusion:

"deception.

Crunch point

The harsh reality is that we’ve built systems – financial, economic, social and political – which can only function when prosperity is growing. These systems can survive recessions, or even depressions, presupposing that neither is unduly protracted, and is followed by a return to growth. When – as now – that doesn’t happen, the promises that we made to ourselves in order to weather the bad times rapidly become incapable of being honoured.

Ultimately, any financial system is a set of promises, and functions only if those promises can be kept.

It has to be glaringly obvious, too, that the historic cushion of growing prosperity has enabled us to indulge in luxuries that are now becoming unaffordable. The term “luxuries” doesn’t refer to trinkets like gadgets, expensive holidays and the two- or three-car family. Rather, it refers to assumptions and practices that can no longer be afforded.

High on this list lies the indulgence of ideological extremism in economic organisation. If there was ever a time when society could afford either the fanaticism of “nationalising everything”, or the contrary fanaticism of “privatising everything”, that time passed at least two decades ago. What is required now is the pragmatism which surely leads to the “horses for courses” preference for a mixed economy, in which both the state and private enterprise concentrate on what each does best.

Other luxuries that we can no longer afford include massive gaps between the poorest and the wealthiest. This was an affordable luxury when everyone was getting a little more prosperous with each passing year. When your own circumstances are improving, it’s not difficult to accept the extreme wealth of your neighbour – but this tolerance will dissolve very quickly indeed when exposed to the solvent of generally deteriorating prosperity.

This, through its direct link to political insurgency (aka “populism”), brings us back to the immediate situation. Public dissatisfaction has thus far been fueled by discontents likely to be dwarfed by anger yet to come, as inflated asset prices explode and the reality of deteriorating prosperity can no longer be disguised. The Chinese economy, which has accounted for 36% of all global growth since 2008, is now deteriorating markedly, the inevitable fate of any system founded on truly reckless rates of borrowing. “Growth” of 6-7% ceases to impress when you have to borrow about 25% of GDP each year to make it happen.

Few Western economies are in much better condition, yet politicians continue to promise “growth”, and remain in ignorance about the trends that are making such promises an absurdity. Perhaps the greatest risk of all is that lessons not learned in 2008 will be no better understood in the next (and much larger) crisis described here as GFC II."



Stir the pensions reality into that mix and the result is an inflammable cocktail. We may know that current incumbencies cannot adapt to the new realities, but the insurgents have yet to demonstrate a better grasp of reality."

Larry Hart said...

@jim,

(And if this sounds snarky, it's not meant that way)

That sounds like something Hari Seldon could have written at the opening of the Foundation series.

Anonymous said...

...yet to demonstrate a better grasp of reality.

And will not demonstrate.
Thinking in advance -- it's not homo sapiens's strong point. %P

David Brin said...

I have no idea what fantasy universe this is from: " to kill the "Wall Street parasites".
That "parasites" that made USA that powerful as it is now???

Neither assertion is even remotely true.

But yes, fewr words. more efficient. And readable.

onward

onward