tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post8938474467493335681..comments2024-03-18T21:52:45.757-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Nobel for Wikileaks? Transparency and Society Stories... etcDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger206125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5489446100051016692011-02-17T09:55:20.331-08:002011-02-17T09:55:20.331-08:00Dr. Brin: I think the first point that is being lo...Dr. Brin: I think the first point that is being lost here is that Arab states are not the same thing as the Palestinian nation. I have more respect for Israel than Arab states because it has never employed the Palestinian plight to sustain an oppressive regime, as many Arab - an non Arab, in the case of Iran - states do.<br /><br />And it is also true that the Arab states should have been more welcoming of the Palestinians - but still, two thirds of Palestinians do no, in fact, live in Palestine anymore. And yet they feel as bound to their land as they were the day they left it, 60 years ago for some of them. <br /><br />But you seem to be suggesting that all could be solved if just the Palestinians GAVE UP and moved to the Arab states - because after all, they're all Arabs.<br /><br />That's like saying Catholic Norther Irishmen should have just moved to the Irish Republic. <br /><br />The Palestinians have a right to live in their own land - and for every offer of peace Israel made to Arab states, it never made a compelling offer to Palestinians, for Palestinian statehood. And as recent leaked documents show, the Palestinians had conceded nearly everything, including the right of return.<br /><br />Israel still say no.<br /><br />When I say that Israel is an aggressor state, I'm saying it as it concerns its relationship to the Palestinians. Cast Lead, the Gaza blockade, the occupation of the West Bank - it has nothing to do with defending itself from an existential threat that no longers exist. It is about driving the Palestinians out and annexing their land to create a Greater Israel.<br /><br />And I know about the Grand Mufti' and Black September and what have you. That doesn't change my overall opinion. Because there is one side that has power, and if that side wants to be recognized as a liberal democracy that respects human rights, it has to act like one. It's not a double standard, it's a higher standard.Hypnoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409179274970587232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24146910623042134212011-02-15T00:59:54.863-08:002011-02-15T00:59:54.863-08:00Onward to next postOnward to next postDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-10340494708204965872011-02-15T00:59:44.567-08:002011-02-15T00:59:44.567-08:00" But are you really claiming that current av..." But are you really claiming that current average-American sentiment toward Arabs ("terrorists, towel-heads, oil-extortionists, anti-modern feudalists, sexists par excellence, nuke-'em-into-the-stone-age") really produces a PRO-Arab bias so strong that everyone forgives them all their sins just in order to pile on Israel?"<br /><br />Of course not! This is one of the lunacies of the left.<br /><br />The left does have some, you know. Just because 99% of today's madness and nastiness and danger is on the right does NOT mean the left lacks reminders of how awful it can be... and was horrifically worse in the past.<br /><br />"Wouldn't everyone be better served by a focus on developing a solution and an international refusal to tolerate illegal and immoral actions on either side?"<br /><br />I totally agree! But to hold up a double standard is not a good place to start. And for sites like that one about Huckabee to spread outright, deliberate knowing slanderous LIES is no way to start either. <br /><br />But onward. We share a passionate belief that RIGHT NOW is the time for Israelis to get their shit together, shrug off the PTSD and be seen joining this revolution.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34227681422965469552011-02-15T00:08:55.246-08:002011-02-15T00:08:55.246-08:00Robert,
"the entire region is suffering from ...Robert,<br /><i>"the entire region is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome."</i><br /><br />Tabs of ecstasy and group therapy for everyone!Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-28825667271498256672011-02-14T20:03:46.544-08:002011-02-14T20:03:46.544-08:00You know, this actually explains the entire Middle...You know, this actually explains the entire Middle East (and Northern Africa) (and perhaps Central Africa) quite well: the entire region is suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. And the victims are turning on their own children, resulting in a culture of abusers and abused who don't know when or even how to quit.<br /><br />It's tragic, when you consider it that way.<br /><br />Rob H.<br /><br />acksib: what you say when you walk in on a sibling in the bathroomAcacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18655159811889485822011-02-14T19:57:50.248-08:002011-02-14T19:57:50.248-08:00>>That IS the underlying meme, guys. Otherwi...>>That IS the underlying meme, guys. Otherwise, the list of crimes, in your mind, wi=ould be as detailed on their side of the ledger as on the other.<br /><br />I'm trying to understand your point, truly I am, but I just don't see anyone making the argument that you are describing, either here or anywhere else (I'm sure you could find some nuts somewhere to cite--one always can). But are you really claiming that current average-American sentiment toward Arabs ("terrorists, towel-heads, oil-extortionists, anti-modern feudalists, sexists par excellence, nuke-'em-into-the-stone-age") really produces a <i>PRO</i>-Arab bias so strong that everyone forgives them all their sins just in order to pile on Israel? Or is it supposed to be only blue-staters who feel this way, not the good ol' Arab-hating red-staters?<br /><br />Everyone I've seen discuss the issue with any knowledge and nuance acknowledges a history fraught with error, venom, and bad action on both sides. Is it really worth the quibble of whether a given side deserves 21, 62, or 78% of the blame (a determination that is impossible to make, in any case)? Wouldn't everyone be better served by a focus on developing a solution and an international refusal to tolerate illegal and immoral actions on either side? Maybe that's a bit too pragmatic for some, but I don't see any advantage in wallowing in ideology at this point.Michael C. Rushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11300622174153812004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60319409163005656552011-02-14T19:55:57.824-08:002011-02-14T19:55:57.824-08:00Actually, the Egyptian educated classes are said t...Actually, the Egyptian educated classes are said to be large... Mubarak may be spared hell, because he pushed education... as did the Shah, BTW.<br /><br />Hence Egypt MIGHT be very sympatico with a new Palestine. Israel has GOT to see this as an opportunity. If they leap on it, then they can plausibly say "See? It was the old arab regimes at fault! As soon as this revolution came, we negotiated!"<br /><br />Alas, I do not see Netanyahu doing this. Rabin would have. He was a terrible loss.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25244936907928721902011-02-14T19:36:11.095-08:002011-02-14T19:36:11.095-08:00"I agree that there is no "cure" so..."I agree that there is no "cure" so long as red america is traumatized every June, watching the best and brightest of every high school graduating class grin, accept diplomas and hugs, and then race to blue cities as facts as they can shake the hick dust off their shoes."<br /><br />It does help... some... when those blue cities are still in the same state. It helps a good bit more when they can SEE those blue cities visibly making life in their own hamlet better. Four examples that come to mind are Austin (Texas), Huntsville (Alabama), Atlanta (Georgia) and the Research Triangle (North Carolina). Unfortunately the effect is too dilute in Texas due to its great size.<br /><br />Please keep up the Holy Lands discussion... I'm learning more about this in a few minutes than in years, simply by hearing what each side does NOT want to talk about. But even beforehand, I knew this. The Palestinians are treated at _least_ as s***illy by other Arabs as by Israelis... and at least the Israelis aren't hypocrites about it.<br /><br />I am VERY interested to see what actual Arab democracies in Egypt do vis-a-vis Palestinian work. It's been a known fact for decades that Palestinians are not allowed to do more than the most menial tasks in other Arab lands. Ostensibly, this is because their REAL task is to go be cannon fodder against da Joos. Behind that is the argument that the Palestinians would 'steal jobs'... but wouldn't the dictators who have run the Arab states *like* the idea of driving down labor costs?<br /><br />I have an alternate theory.<br /><br />They're afraid the Palestinians... more urbanized, in some cases better educated, certainly less tradition- and clan- and territory-bound... might do those jobs BETTER.Catfish N. Codnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70192696420115840242011-02-14T18:57:52.477-08:002011-02-14T18:57:52.477-08:00The west bank was supposed to be a new state in 19...The west bank was supposed to be a new state in 1948. The first invaders of that state were the Jordanians, who crushed the nascent Palestinian Council and simply annexed the territory. Another fact forgotten and ignored.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-71520677234135052012011-02-14T18:44:38.220-08:002011-02-14T18:44:38.220-08:00Hypnos said "Israel made the decision to atta...Hypnos said "Israel made the decision to attack because it knew it could achieve a crushing victory. It acquired the Palestinian territory that remains the point of contention today." As I recall, the west bank was part of Jordan. One might ask why Jordan hasn't taken the palestinians back, they were Jordanian citizens. Do you have any reason to think the palestinians would have been given autonomy by the Jordanian government?Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14830909485159684342011-02-14T18:05:35.873-08:002011-02-14T18:05:35.873-08:00No, I am accusing the anti-Israeil sentiment of ar...No, I am accusing the anti-Israeil sentiment of arising out of a double standard that implicitly assumes that Arab states cannot be judged culpable, because no better could have been expected of people like that. That IS the underlying meme, guys. Otherwise, the list of crimes, in your mind, wi=ould be as detailed on their side of the ledger as on the other.<br /><br />But you did not know (or care) that Nasser had declared a blockade (an actor war ) or fired on Israeli ships or (I left this out (ejected the UN observers and refortified Sharm El Sheik in direct abrogation of the 1956 cease fire, thus re-activating that conflict, nor the blatant inability of his army, having crossed the Sinai with limited supplies, to do anything OTHER than attack?<br /><br />The expulsion of MORE jews from arab lands than palestinians lost theirs... or the fact that they simply could have been given to arab refugees... as many of them ASKED, having seen the same swap done just the year before, in Pakistan/India... that might be on the ledger. But it is not, because one simply expects that sort of thing from "those people."<br /><br />Rewinn is entirely right in his overall point. The Israelis are being stupid not to recognize that the Palestinians have BECOME "a People" even if they weren't before. In fact, the west bankers have become the most advanced, educated and Israeli-like people in the Middle East. <br /><br />By dicking around Abbas, instead of embracing him, Netanyahu et al are helping ensure that Tel Aviv may vanish in a radioactive cloud, in 20 years. It is insanity...<br /><br />...but it is insanity born of (as Rewinn says) PTSD. Wherein they are actually listening to American right wing assholes who are preaching irredentist-bliblical bullshit... instead of realizing these yanks are maniacs who want Israel to conquer SO THAT blood can soon thereafter gush from the eye sockets of every jew who thereupon doesn't convert! Some friends!<br /><br />Read HEART OF THE COMET where I show how bad such an alliance could get, betraying everything Ben Gurion stood for.<br /><br />Did you ever watch LAWRENCE OF ARABIA? Prince Feisel (played by Obiwan Kenobi) was a real person. A great man. Leader of the Hashemites who, if they hadn't been betrayed, had a plan that could have made it all work. Now the traumas have played out. They didn't start out the Israelis' fault. But it PTSD victims inevitably turn mean.<br /><br />I am with you guys, when it comes to wanting Netanyahu out and the settlements abandoned... or bought for a price that would make every Palestinian delerious.<br /><br />But historical justifications for absurd double standards do not wash.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25604840981028410292011-02-14T17:37:02.306-08:002011-02-14T17:37:02.306-08:00>>See, there's an implicit racism here t...>>See, there's an implicit racism here that's really stunning.<br /><br />Oh, please. Some of us couldn't care less about Israeli or Arab culture, religion, history, where their grandparents x 10 lived, or the shade of their flesh. You may be aiming for clever, but you're landing on insulting (and trivializing).<br /><br />rewinn makes an important point. Viewing any of the parties involved as angels or demons removes all possibility of debate (or solution).Michael C. Rushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11300622174153812004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-52407368903902430852011-02-14T17:28:18.982-08:002011-02-14T17:28:18.982-08:00Like I said: a little light, but mostly heat and p...Like I said: a little light, but mostly heat and pressure.<br /><br />===<br /><br />Whether there is moral equivalence or legality to the actions of any of the parties is almost completely beside the point of a practical solution. A case can be made that a typical resident of Israel and Palestine has reason to be suffering from PTSD or a host of similar ailments. (Indeed Israeli research into wounded warrior re-integration has been helpful for American troops; I can look up references if you like).<br /><br />One can spend an entire internet's worth of words listing the crimes of the governments and peoples involved and that will accomplish what?<br /><br />Why not, instead, come to a plain acknowledgement that it is manifestly unjust and irrational to expect Palestinians to suffer for the crimes of Germans or, if you prefer, to move to Syrians because Syria ejected Jews? And it is equally irrational to expect the state of Israel to go, "Oh, sorry, my bad" and close up shop?<br /><br />Even the question of "equivalence" must be set aside if there is to be conversation. The blacks of South Africa won, after all.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-61026294850711501262011-02-14T17:20:33.268-08:002011-02-14T17:20:33.268-08:00Oh, one last thing.
A week earlier Nasser declare...Oh, one last thing.<br /><br />A week earlier Nasser declared a blockade of the Israeli port of Eilat and fired upon ships heading toward it.<br /><br />Excuse me. But the blockade was in itself an open act or war, by international law. The artillery barrages - effective and aimed to kill-not warn) were the commencement of armed hostilities. Look it up.<br /><br />Thing is... look at your long list of rationalizations. Now look at the short list of things you know about what was done by the other side. Do you know the names of the Grand Mufti? Of Black September?<br /><br />Do you know what happened to the Hasemite royal families, who tried to negotiate not only peace but a confederation with Ben Gurion?<br /><br />See, there's an implicit racism here that's really stunning. People who see only Israeli sins are actually deeply nastily racist against arabs! Because the implicit assumption is that they cannot be asked to be accountable for their behavior, because they are incapable. Whereas Israeli faults were knowingly chosen from among a set of equally viable alternatives.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30734583666631996742011-02-14T17:00:53.898-08:002011-02-14T17:00:53.898-08:00See this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookou...See this:<br /><br />http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110214/us_yblog_thelookout/south-carolina-lawmaker-wants-separate-currency-for-state<br /><br />That's<br />http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/<br />then<br />20110214/us_yblog_thelookout/south-carolina-<br />then<br />lawmaker-wants-separate-currency-for-state<br /><br />Here's what shoulda happened.<br /><br />The property of every slave holder in So Carolina should have been seized for a consortium of ALL the south's freed slaves. Let them come en masse, reducing friction in other states. <br /><br />Then kick Charleston OUT of the Union. Let it be like Macao.<br /><br />What the #$#! is it there. Something in the water?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-57993633953638188402011-02-14T16:56:11.104-08:002011-02-14T16:56:11.104-08:00As Nomad would say, "your references are uncc...As Nomad would say, "your references are unccordinated!" ;-)<br /><br />Some, like the incidence by incident aggravating unfairness of Israeil land and water use authorities, are on target. They anger me and are also deeply stupid. Likewise, only now are the checkpoints being removed and full travel opened up.<br /><br />Still, "agressor state" is utter bullshit. The offer of peace treaties has been on the table since formation and every time an Arab state said yes, the result was Israeli withdrawal and peace and no resumption of hostilities from the Israeli side. That is plain fact. Indisputable. It is simply what happened.<br /><br />Israel is an "unwelcome occupier" and at times harsh and unfair... till you compare it to any other harsh and unfair occupier in the history of humanity. Then you realize that double standards are at work. <br /><br />Ask you average west banker if he'd rather live in Algeria or Yemen or Libya or Syria. Oops, he never had the option because of deliberate arab policy to never, ever help their brethren so they could be seen suffering. (How's that for morality. They could have been offered the homes of half a million arab state jews who were kicked out, after 1948 and never compensated.)<br /><br />Still. Citizens of vibrant Ramallah would rather undergo root canal than live in Damascus or Tunis.<br /><br />As for the 67 war, you keep softpedaling. There is no way to get around it. Do you know how far the entire egyptian army had to travel, across the Sinai desert, to line up along Israel's border. Would you look at a map please? They could have maintained that position for ONE week before starving. Only another DAY using fuel at the rate that they were. The attack was ordered and underway and only militarily ignorant folks are out there calling it "abiguous" or debatable.<br /><br />And yes, it was absolutely and completely and inarguably a case of "preventing an inevitable invasion." No, amend that. An inevitable genocide.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39377606223167887612011-02-14T15:51:48.785-08:002011-02-14T15:51:48.785-08:00"Hypnos, Calling Israel the aggressor in 1967..."Hypnos, Calling Israel the aggressor in 1967 shows staggering myopia. What would YOU do, were three huge armies poised, locked and loaded on your border with pre-invasion fueling and radio traffic building on a 6 hour count-down? And “drive them into the sea broadcasts screaming around the clock?"<br /><br />It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. The aggressor in the last war had been Israel. High ranking officials in the Israeli government - and American intelligence - were pretty convinced Egypt would not attack.<br /><br />Israel made the decision to attack because it knew it could achieve a crushing victory. It acquired the Palestinian territory that remains the point of contention today.<br /><br />1967 is debatable. I am willing to concede that Israel might have been in the right. Nonetheless, it still was the aggressor. And it wasn't a simple matter of preventing an inevitable invasion.<br /><br />This still leaves two wars out of five as outright aggressions on the part of Israel. <br /><br /><br />As for the occupation of the West Bank, Israel directly controls movement across the whole of the West Bank. Palestinians settlements are broken up and divided by Israeli military checkpoints. Israeli settlers are given preferential access to water sources - with settlements of a few thousand people enjoying the same quantity of water as hundreds of thousands of Palestinians do.<br /><br />http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Settlements2006.jpg<br /><br />I used to think the blame for the conflict was to be shared equally among parties. I don't anymore since 2006. Israel is an aggressor state. It is illegally occupying the Palestinian state. Israeli settlers should be driven off Palestinian land just like Serbian troops were driven out of Kosovo.Hypnoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409179274970587232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19659982420119019402011-02-14T14:15:42.040-08:002011-02-14T14:15:42.040-08:00>>But are any of us qualified to judge what ...>>But are any of us qualified to judge what WE would be like after generations of slathering and openlly declared attampts to complete the Holocaust? Anyway, I had a right to point out that the blogger you referred to was a deliberately evil liar.<br /><br />I certainly welcome all information/clarification on any and all sources cited by me or by anyone else.<br /><br />And while I understand something of the psychological factors at play in the Middle East, ultimately I will judge all players by their actions. I wasn't around to oppose the Nazis; the best I can do is to oppose any country (or individual, for that matter) in my era who similarly acts in an illegal or immoral manner. I'm not sure I can imagine what I would be like with the past that you posit, but I do know that I would expect myself to behave well or be held accountable for my failure to do so.<br /><br />I would imagine that most of us here probably understand that complex problems don't lend themselves to simplistic solutions. Unfortunately, this is far from the case out in the world at large.Michael C. Rushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11300622174153812004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11028481498599170562011-02-14T12:20:04.444-08:002011-02-14T12:20:04.444-08:00I disagree with the Israeli rightists. Some of the...I disagree with the Israeli rightists. Some of the<br />behavior has been awful. But actually look at the map size of the “land grabs.” Some perspective.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46137325742149663952011-02-14T12:19:23.703-08:002011-02-14T12:19:23.703-08:00Hypnos, Calling Israel the aggressor in 1967 shows...Hypnos, Calling Israel the aggressor in 1967 shows staggering myopia. What would YOU do, were three huge armies poised, locked and loaded on your border with pre-invasion fueling and radio traffic building on a 6 hour count-down? And “drive them into the sea broadcasts screaming around the clock?<br /><br />rushmc, you are more than welcome here. I am deeply worried that the radicalization of Israel may have passed a point of no return. But are any of us qualified to judge what WE would be like after generations of slathering and openlly declared attampts to complete the Holocaust? Anyway, I had a right to point out that the blogger you referred to was a deliberately evil liar.<br /><br />Note, all: Israel’s far-right “friends” are looked on very warily in Israel itself. Let’s not forget, those “friends want the Dome of the ROck razed and the Temple rebuilt... something most Jews desperately want NOT to happen! The Huckabees want the Temple because it would then lead to the Book of Revelations playing out... eek! At which point all Jews who did not convert would suffer horrible agony.<br /><br />These are... friends? Their supprt is accepted with great warriness.<br /><br />Soc, to call any Saudi offer sincer is to ignore the way they forced the Palestinians into ghettos for 50 years, refusing to allow them to emigrate and start new lives, so they could be pawns. Please look at the settlement maps. I disagree with the Israeli rightists. Some of theDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-88671356981667522592011-02-14T11:58:33.064-08:002011-02-14T11:58:33.064-08:00Rumor has it that Israeli nuclear weapons are fuel...Rumor has it that Israeli nuclear weapons are fueled by putting two historians into a small room to debate the origin and history of its state.<br /><br />While the ensuing reaction can result in a certain amount of light, mostly it produces uncontrollable amounts of heat and pressure. <br /><br />This is not to say that the issue should not be discussed; to the contrary, its importance is evident. But I would suggest founding discussions on the proposition that all have grievances that must be accepted before a solution is possible.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-79842200985350907012011-02-14T09:35:45.471-08:002011-02-14T09:35:45.471-08:00I've always seen AIPAC as more or less as infl...I've always seen AIPAC as more or less as influential as the Saudis in Washington. Isn't that why J-Street was formed? As a counterbalance to an organization which they felt didn't represent mainstream American Jews?<br /><br />Also, didn't the Saudi's offer a proposal a few years ago which offered full recognition of Israel by the Arab League? The Israelis had a few problems with it, if I recall correctly, but it could still be a basis for negotiation with the Arab League.<br /><br />Finally, if the Israeli leadership really is fed up and wants to be done with this occupation business, what explains the aggressive expanding of settlements over the decades? It's one thing to militarily hold a territory, but quite another thing to change the ethnic makeup of the place by transferring your civilian population into the place.socnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27329899550701571992011-02-14T09:23:57.612-08:002011-02-14T09:23:57.612-08:00>>In any event, your leaving out the role of...>>In any event, your leaving out the role of the REAL fanatics... those who think they can topple western civilization and create a new Grand Caliphate...<br /><br />I don't overlook the religion-and-power-fueled machinations of the Arabs in the region (Muslims and otherwise) at all. I simply don't agree that they are to blame for Israel's crimes and devolution into a theocracy. Grand Caliphate or intolerant Israeli theocracy working with U.S. fundamentalist Christian extremists to bring on Armageddon, makes no difference to me. I'm strongly opposed to both. Also, although I of course support Israel's right to exist at this point (as well as Palestine's), I am opposed to all of the naive and destructive nationbuilding-by-fiat done over the past 150 years, which has proved an unequivocal disaster. I'm not a big fan of nations in general, but inventing them by drawing lines on a map is unjust and doesn't work, and we've seen time and again the ethnic, religious, and cultural conflicts it has engendered. <br /><br />Call me naive if you must, but at least I've derived my views by observing the play of history in the real world, not by self-serving dreams rooted in optimism and wishful thinking (not referring to you here, but to many others, past and present).<br /><br />In any case, I can see that this is a sore subject with you, so I won't push this particular button any more.Michael C. Rushhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11300622174153812004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80534160755441378022011-02-14T07:53:02.827-08:002011-02-14T07:53:02.827-08:00Wasn't '67 a pre-emptive strike in respons...Wasn't '67 a pre-emptive strike in response to the massive of an entire army on their borders plus declarations of the intent to exterminate the entire Israeli population? Or am I getting them mixed up?Ilithi Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300247936272572280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24373950836013408562011-02-14T05:58:30.940-08:002011-02-14T05:58:30.940-08:00"But after FIVE attempts to anihilate them, t..."But after FIVE attempts to anihilate them, the middle of the road Israelis are willing to ally themselves with the fundies politically and the fundies know their power will diminish if peace evern happens."<br /><br />Five attempts to drive the Israelis to the sea? I can count two, plus a debatable third.<br /><br />Those would be 1948 and 1973.<br /><br />In 1956, 1967 and 1982 Israel was the aggressor, 1967 being the debatable one.Hypnoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409179274970587232noreply@blogger.com