tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post7658202000320895153..comments2024-03-28T08:34:43.846-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: End the cheating...David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger121125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19350684560433451362018-07-18T22:25:23.314-07:002018-07-18T22:25:23.314-07:00@Zepp Jamieson,
Here, resident aliens (if I under...@Zepp Jamieson,<br /><br />Here, resident aliens (if I understand correctly that that means legal immigrants with staying permit) can vote in municipal elections after 5 years of residence in the Netherlands.<br />Twomindshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03406691129776855720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80240460065752027072018-07-18T19:51:10.696-07:002018-07-18T19:51:10.696-07:00Remember, Duncan, that Cracked is (allegedly) a co...Remember, Duncan, that Cracked is (allegedly) a comedy website. And that it fired almost all of its regular writers earlier this year, so the new batch probably aren't really clear yet on how "comedy" works.Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45250933537888379372018-07-18T18:56:28.459-07:002018-07-18T18:56:28.459-07:00@ Larry Hart
I think that voting in two or more s...@ Larry Hart<br /><br />I think that voting in two or more states at state and local level should be permitted provided that residency requirements are met. Most states have a 30 day residency requirement, some less ( https://www.infoplease.com/history-and-government/us-elections/residency-requirements-voting ) so in theory someone could "reside" in 12 or more states to qualify, but that seems like an awful lot of expense and effort for a limited return. <br />No dual voting at the federal level (Congress or President) should be permitted. <br />I also think resident aliens should be permitted to vote. We are, generally speaking, better educated, and have a better understanding of the constitution.Zepp Jamiesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16261339498383415026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53047520006985609172018-07-18T17:20:33.385-07:002018-07-18T17:20:33.385-07:00Ironically, I defend Elon Musk in the blog I just ...Ironically, I defend Elon Musk in the blog I just posted.<br /><br />onward<br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64135485395584927072018-07-18T17:03:44.406-07:002018-07-18T17:03:44.406-07:00@ LarryHart " Turns out, he was still require...@ LarryHart " Turns out, he was still required to appear and prove he was not a US citizen in order to be dismissed."<br /><br />It may vary from state to state. I got a summons once, and called up the County Clerk and explained that I was a resident alien, and he said, "Oh, OK then, I'll take you off the list," and that was the end of it. <br />I would have just explained to the judge that I didn't need to hear any evidence, that Cththlu would tell me how to determine the fate of the defendant, and everyone else in the court room. This is the Ted Nugent school of avoiding jury duty, of course.Zepp Jamiesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16261339498383415026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-79561128304076340412018-07-18T16:33:07.098-07:002018-07-18T16:33:07.098-07:00Alfred
Hiding from your government is a futile ef...Alfred<br /><br />Hiding from your government is a futile effort and ultimately destructive - you should take a leaf from our hosts book and instead argue for transparency<br /><br />I would argue that a lot of our dealings would work a LOT better in the light - I really like the Scandinavian idea that everybody's tax returns are public documents<br />And Dr Brins idea that all significant assets should have a link to their actual owners duncan cairncrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153725128216947145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78284200279434786012018-07-18T16:23:44.785-07:002018-07-18T16:23:44.785-07:00Hi Sociotard
Well I have read that article
What a ...Hi Sociotard<br />Well I have read that article<br />What a lot of total BOLLOCKS - <br /><br />Know the tree by it's fruits<br /><br />And Musk has actually DONE - Done in the physical world - not "information space"!!<br />An absolute bloody TON! of good<br /><br />He used his initial fortune - from mixing the real world with the information world to smack the world into the Electric car era<br />And another fortune to drop the cost of getting to orbit buy a factor of four or more<br /><br />BOTH things that are massively important to the future of man<br /><br />Just those two - hell either one of them - make Musk the one man who has done the most to help our long term future in the last hundred years<br /><br />And then some trog of a journalist compares him to TRUMP!duncan cairncrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153725128216947145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15034154874904533562018-07-18T15:59:06.584-07:002018-07-18T15:59:06.584-07:00I do hope David Brin takes the time to read this a...I do hope David Brin takes the time to read this article comparing Elon Musk to Donald Trump<br /><a href="http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-it-was-always-dumb-to-worship-elon-musk-as-savior/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cracked.com/blog/why-it-was-always-dumb-to-worship-elon-musk-as-savior/</a>sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45769962972430369172018-07-18T15:40:10.814-07:002018-07-18T15:40:10.814-07:00Ratio - "So it could be argued that it's ...Ratio - <i>"So it could be argued that it's voter assistance, but not ID assistance."</i><br /><br />And pointing out the difference between the two was my whole point. Any error whatsoever in a claim, or any trivial deflection, will prevail in practice for people predisposed to believe one side and refuse to do anything or permit anything to be done.<br /><br />Trump is a fool. The folks operating on the ground may include a few fools. But most are not foolish, and know exactly how to handle any overstatement. So...scrupulous accuracy is the path to actual remedy. <br />When ID is the problem behind the problem, remedies done in many other countries (e.g., voter ID cards) can work.donzelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05991849781932619746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-87904087094339126302018-07-18T15:37:33.185-07:002018-07-18T15:37:33.185-07:00@Twominds | Lying about your address on a ticket w...@Twominds | Lying about your address on a ticket will get you arrested when they find you again. The ticket is an agreement to show up in court (if necessary) so the cop doesn’t HAVE to arrest us to ensure our appearance. If you show up as agreed, they might not notice or care, but committing fraud on such an agreement is a bad idea. It would be difficult to convince a jury one isn’t guilty of fraud. It would also be dumb to turn an infraction (ticket-able offense) into something bigger. Try it and law enforcement will start looking for something else that you don’t want them to notice. Very bad idea. 8)<br /><br />I am inclined to trust my government far more than many of my libertarian friends, but it is not blind trust. If they really don’t need to know X, I’m inclined to argue that they shouldn’t spend money learning X or expand the scope of their attention to include X. I’ll listen to them, though, in case they have a good reason. My inclination to trust them, though, is based in a belief that they work for me and my fellow citizens. If they ever manage to convince me they don’t, I’ll do far more than hide from them. My duty to my nation involves making sure they understand their place and I take that seriously. Since I actually work within the government (contractor), I’ve actually had opportunities to observe and educate. Most everyone around me “gets it” well enough for me to continue with my sense of trust.<br /><br />Personally, I want them to know who I am, where I am residing, and a number of other details where it benefits me to have someone act as a repository of validated information. For example, I’m a home owner and benefit from having my property registered under my name, the creditors registered for that property, and the property’s approximate value. I’m married and benefit from having the State’s court system know that and who qualifies as ‘my’ offspring. There are a number of things about me and my interactions with the State and the Market where I benefit from having them publicly known, so I don’t mind the State providing that service. I also don’t mind if someone else does as long as they are fair and open to corrections when they are incorrect about certain details. Beyond all that, though, I have to be convinced if the State wants to do it. I CAN be convinced, but I don’t blindly trust anyone with power.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-31110163752280933872018-07-18T14:45:31.192-07:002018-07-18T14:45:31.192-07:00@Alfred Differ,
As you already say, in fact the g...@Alfred Differ,<br /><br />As you already say, in fact the government knows a lot about you, I guess including where to find you, if they are motivated enough. Unless you live like a fugitive, and even then, in the long run.<br /><br />It's clear that I do trust my government not to interfere in my life unless I break the law. I share that privilege with essentially all other people here, even the ones from groups that give more problems than average. <br /><br />By the way, if I get, for instance, a traffic ticket, the cops will ask for my address and I'm obligated to give it. I think they can even check it immediately these days. <br />How does that work for you, can you lie and give a false address without (immediate) trouble? If it's not registered, it would be harder to check, at least right then and there.<br />Do you need to provide it at all, or is it up to the cops to find out (assuming legal means here)?Twomindshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03406691129776855720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24730309178450710152018-07-18T14:41:44.279-07:002018-07-18T14:41:44.279-07:00"Again, I'm a bit confused..."
Yes,..."Again, I'm a bit confused..."<br /><br />Yes, again and again and again. Alas the admission is not sincere. We know it is always true. He fantacizes it's not.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15490862151916613112018-07-18T14:28:28.317-07:002018-07-18T14:28:28.317-07:00Hi Larry,
I generally believe that people should ...Hi Larry,<br /><br />I generally believe that people should have some say in matters which concern their interest. Fairness should dictate something along these being able to vote. Unfortunately, complications arise. Consider. Partitioning an acre of land into pinheads parcels which are sold to those of like mind. Foreign Interests. Building an infrastructure to apportion which elections you can vote in at what strength (0.5 in both?). All reasonably solvable but at some additional increased Cost of Elections. I like the idea of being flexible and fair but only have we improve other flaws first. Convince me that the cost is reasonable and that doesn't distract from energy best spent elsewhere. I'll be open minded. I'd recommend we stick to primary residence for now.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10432722840081535430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64292329944894017532018-07-18T14:26:39.151-07:002018-07-18T14:26:39.151-07:00@Twominds | We don't trust our government enou...@Twominds | We don't trust our government enough to want them to know where to find us all the time. LOTS of us prefer they not really know, so we don't inform the state folks who manage driver licenses. We have to put addresses on our tax forms, but we don't have to inform those agencies when we move around. I'm in a rental house right now and we get notices for a few people from the local courts. I have no doubt the former residents would prefer those courts not know where they went.<br /><br />Unless the government has a clear, justifiable reason for knowing something about us, we often prefer they not know it. Knowledge is power.<br /><br />Yes. We are rather delusional on this point. Obviously they know an enormous amount about us. Far more than we want to admit.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18666956509162393562018-07-18T14:19:41.378-07:002018-07-18T14:19:41.378-07:00The first argument against that that pops to mind ...The first argument against that that pops to mind is one should be careful tying one's right to vote in an area to owning property in that area. A large fraction of America owns no real property and we don't want to turn property ownership into a path for having multiple votes.<br /><br />Another argument against it comes from the original point of the census. Apportionment of representation in the House. If we really expect one person to count for exactly one person, we must ensure they don't start counting for two... or three-fifths in one place and nothing in another because that other place refuses to play. Apportionment matters.<br /><br />Arguing for it is pretty easy. Your in-laws could be 1/2 in one district and 1/2 in another adding to one regarding apportionment. If some other location doesn't want to play that game, then the other gets all the credit. If one takes residency as the measure instead of property ownership, it might work.<br /><br />Ultimately, though, I'm sure most of us would reject this idea. We'd imagine outsiders claiming residency in our neighborhoods in order to vote in local elections. Imagine the fun to be had when 10 million Californians argue they are half-time residents in some swing state. It's not like we couldn't buy the property over there. It's not like we couldn't pay the state taxes over there... wherever 'there' is. We don't like YOUR Senator over there, so we are moving in (without having to really stay there forever) and we are going to vote them out. I've occasionally joked about this with my wife. Don’t like that guy? Let’s move and make our votes count over there! Fortunately for them, she usually just gives me that look that says ‘those people’ voted for ‘that guy’. Even a move within California to dilute a redder district is usually met with that look. 8)Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47763755683737059122018-07-18T14:15:44.307-07:002018-07-18T14:15:44.307-07:00Twominds:
And I think, voting for general electio...Twominds:<br /><i><br />And I think, voting for general elections should be in one state only. <br /></i><br /><br />Well, that's how it is now.<br /><br />I'm just wondering if there's a good reason it has to be that way.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24526614694739568492018-07-18T13:59:06.510-07:002018-07-18T13:59:06.510-07:00@Greg Byshenk
we have registration of residence w...@Greg Byshenk<br /><br /><i>we have registration of residence which the USA does not.</i><br /><br />Yes, I thought it must be so, otherwise the problem would be really un-understandable. Still, I find that hard to imagine: how else does an administration that wants contact with a citizen, do so effectively? Here, I can contact my local or regional or countrywide government in several ways, they have only one sure way, my address.<br /><br />LarryHart, without registration of residence, how could you establish if a person is spending enough time in a specific state to justify voting there too?<br />And I think, voting for general elections should be in one state only. <br />Twomindshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03406691129776855720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-35572248716323523562018-07-18T11:57:07.041-07:002018-07-18T11:57:07.041-07:00I've been mulling over a philosophical questio...I've been mulling over a philosophical question without (so far) having thought through all of the possible consequences or which party would benefit more. Just soliciting reactions for now...<br /><br />Many Americans have multiple residences in separate states. My in-laws, for example, live half the year in Texas and half in the Chicago area, owning residences in both locations.<br /><br />Is there a good reason (aside from "that's how the law is right now") why they should not be permitted to vote in both locations? Elections are at the state level or below. Why shouldn't they have influence over who represents them in both locations? It's not like (say) their vote for Senator or congressperson or mayor would be double-counted as each locations elections are entirely separate.<br /><br />I can see how it might be an issue for presidential elections, but even there, only the popular vote would be double-counted (and we've seen how much the popular vote matters). The true races would be for electoral votes from Texas and from Illinois, which again are separate.<br /><br />I'm not necessarily arguing that it <b>should</b> work that way, but wondering what the arguments against it really are, other than "It's never been allowed before."<br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-32797867228916197282018-07-18T11:34:24.787-07:002018-07-18T11:34:24.787-07:00Purging of roles would be part of a reasonable pro...Purging of roles would be part of a reasonable process. Each validated identity would have a 'lifespan of trust' requiring people to re-establish the validity of their asserted identity periodically. This is necessary to deal with the risks of corruption of identities (someone cracking my defenses could spoof my ID) and natural deaths that don't get registered some other way.<br /><br />It should be possible for non-state entities to establish and validate identities. I have no issue with them being involved in removing them too, but that process should be slow and NEVER monopolized by any entity especially a State.<br /><br />Your point about too much security is actually a process monopoly issue. As long as the State is the only entity that can validate and purge, you've got a conflict of interest problem. Break the process monopoly and allow 'People Like Us' to get involved. States can be responsible for reasonable rules everyone has to follow (no exceptions) and break open the rest. It will feel like chaos initially, but I strongly suspect the non-profits will step in on all sides to make it work.<br /><br />My libertarian friends don't get this, but breaking State monopolies IS a libertarian ideal. My friends often prefer to hide from government, but David hammered on the silliness of that approach in his transparency book. The smart thing to do here is recognize the concerns some people have regarding vote legitimacy and use a system that enables various participants to look back at each other and (even better) get involved. We already HAVE a system were assertion of identities isn't sufficient and they came up with solutions. It is the same system David already points to when he suggests banks are going to get into the identification business, but I suggest some details so non-banks can play too. Get the notaries involved and break state monopolies. That will help.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-51826805665482421782018-07-18T10:57:38.391-07:002018-07-18T10:57:38.391-07:00The subject of voter ID reminds me of a story I pr...The subject of voter ID reminds me of a story I probably told here already. Many years ago, my then-supervisor at work was from India. He had a green card, but was not a US citizen.<br /><br />When he got a notice to appear for jury duty, I told him he was not allowed to serve, and we checked the county's website to see what he was supposed to do. Turns out, he was still required to appear and <b>prove he was not a US citizen</b> in order to be dismissed. I don't know what would have happened if he couldn't prove that to their satisfaction--would he have been seated on an actual jury?<br /><br />Point being, there are situations in which you are presumed to <b>be</b> a citizen unless you can prove otherwise.<br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27670280898226030752018-07-18T10:54:49.289-07:002018-07-18T10:54:49.289-07:00Alfred Differ:
A few votes in Florida in 2000 cou...Alfred Differ:<br /><i><br />A few votes in Florida in 2000 could have changed the world and it was legitimacy that became the real, long-lasting issue<br /></i><br /><br />But the problem there wasn't too little security on the voter rolls. It was too <b>much</b> security, erring on the side of purging. That's a different thing, in fact the opposite thing from the problem voter ID laws claim to solve.<br /><br />I agree that the legitimacy of the vote is paramount. Just noting that the integrity of the process of <b>purging</b> the voter rolls is every bit as important as that of letting people <b>on</b> the voter rolls.<br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14249567782528669102018-07-18T10:46:57.447-07:002018-07-18T10:46:57.447-07:00@Duncan | Validating votes has as much value as va...@Duncan | Validating votes has as much value as validating other kinds of transactions. If the harm done by fraud is low, one should not spend much effort trying to prevent it. If it is high, one should make an effort to detect it at a minimum and prevent it if possible. The value in this is a belief in the legitimacy of the processes. <br /><br />For example, if you don’t believe in the reliability of paper cheques, you won’t use them. There once was a day when people didn’t, but the banking system slowly convinced us they could do it relatively safely and detect fraud often enough to matter. They also took steps to ensure they charged enough for the parts of the processes so they could insure against losses and cover us in return. Eventually we stopped worrying and let the system work, but underneath there ARE validation steps that keep us from worrying about the legitimacy of transactions.<br /><br />Think about old processes for deciding who is King. Who gets to be one depends heavily on legitimacy. Try to convince the people of Jordan that a new strongman gets to rule and you’ll run into difficulties you wouldn’t encounter in Libya. The validation processes used to ensure family membership among royals can be intrusive and detailed, but they literally create legitimacy because they create belief.<br /><br />An individual vote might not need much validation, but they do need legitimacy often enough that we should consider bending to the desires of those who want it. A few votes in Florida in 2000 could have changed the world and it was legitimacy that became the real, long-lasting issue.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-54942187766171247362018-07-18T09:40:07.510-07:002018-07-18T09:40:07.510-07:00locumranch babbled, "In fact, California may ...locumranch babbled, "In fact, California may not even be a US State for much longer due to the 'Cal 3 Initiative', otherwise known as Proposition 9, which is a transparent Blue Urban attempt to nullify US federal authority & gerrymander the US electoral college for leftist political advantage."<br /><br />Prop 9, underwritten by a Silicon valley plutocrat, would create one blue and two red states out of California, giving the GOP four nearly automatic senate seats where now they have none. <br /><br />Jerry Brown and Linda Ronstadt dated in 1979 and then went their separate ways. Try to get over it. Zepp Jamiesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16261339498383415026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59863415852348817442018-07-18T09:28:26.007-07:002018-07-18T09:28:26.007-07:00@ sociotard
Yes, and Kavanaugh is on record for w...@ sociotard<br /><br />Yes, and Kavanaugh is on record for wanting to eliminate the office of the special prosecutor altogether. <br />What kind of party wants government to be unaccountable?Zepp Jamiesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16261339498383415026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1861017294178501172018-07-18T09:26:15.830-07:002018-07-18T09:26:15.830-07:00This is huge. Not just the more esoteric reaches ...This is huge. Not just the more esoteric reaches of physics, but in our day-to-day lives. One possiblity: FTL communications. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/china-shatters-ldquo-spooky-action-at-a-distance-rdquo-record-preps-for-quantum-internet/Zepp Jamiesonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16261339498383415026noreply@blogger.com