tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post7466232466372261398..comments2024-03-28T23:39:08.616-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: "Aficionado": A tale from EXISTENCEDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20464078958550251512023-02-11T15:29:13.594-08:002023-02-11T15:29:13.594-08:00Yes. But Sy wasn’t a clergy-bot.Yes. But Sy wasn’t a clergy-bot.Alan Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996922923136240709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-33735957358010486452023-02-11T15:11:10.404-08:002023-02-11T15:11:10.404-08:00okay guys
onward
onwardokay guys<br /><br />onward<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78794094828388791252023-02-11T15:00:59.259-08:002023-02-11T15:00:59.259-08:00Darwin was not right about everything
True, but h...<i>Darwin was not right about everything</i><br /><br />True, but he was explicit that as reasoning beings we are not bound by instincts, but can use our intellect to rise above them. Something that many evolutionary psychologists forget…<br /><br />I think to many people Darwin is like Smith — someone they know about but have never read in the original, other than a few text-proofed phrases taken out-of-context.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04909011338723657265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-10433100325008039862023-02-11T14:58:32.244-08:002023-02-11T14:58:32.244-08:00Alan Brooks:
However, a bot clergyman can be lock...Alan Brooks:<br /><i><br />However, a bot clergyman can be locked IN the closet.<br /></i><br /><br />You don't happen to be familiar with Frank Zappa's <i>Joe's Garage</i> album, do you?<br /><br />Google "Sy Borg" to see what I'm talking about. Also one of the preceding songs, "A Token of My Extreme"Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90765897075329048092023-02-11T14:24:58.119-08:002023-02-11T14:24:58.119-08:00Religionists always complain about clergymen who c...Religionists always complain about clergymen who come out of the closet. <br />However, a bot clergyman can be locked IN the closet.Alan Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996922923136240709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34445133342390951682023-02-11T13:27:58.015-08:002023-02-11T13:27:58.015-08:00Alan Brooks:
Someone said on tv there’s a Constit...Alan Brooks:<br /><i><br />Someone said on tv there’s a Constitutional right to not change?<br />...<br />In the meantime, there could be robotic clergymen and women, whose sermons never change,<br /></i><br /><br />My reaction was that I wanted the right not to grow older than 29. The political demand is ridiculous for the same reason.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46343934671247470162023-02-11T13:03:32.636-08:002023-02-11T13:03:32.636-08:00Robert,
"We are hierarchical primates. The t...Robert,<br /><br />"We are hierarchical primates. The trick is to rise above our instincts, as Darwin noted"<br /><br />Darwin was not right about everything, and more and more evidence out there is revealing another side to humans, a side that is more about cooperation and working together. Biologists, for instance, have been telling us about "fight or flight" for a century now, so we think that's our instinct. Then we started seeing women in biology, and lo and behold! They discover that "tend and befriend" is instinct, too.<br /><br />Hierarchy is a crime of opportunity, like most crimes. And it is completely contradictory to universal rights and freedom.<br /><br />PSBLenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693969299639295594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-42087956696016040402023-02-11T12:56:11.723-08:002023-02-11T12:56:11.723-08:00Someone said on tv there’s a Constitutional right ...Someone said on tv there’s a Constitutional right to not change? There might be a way to do it:<br /> living in an AI Eden.<br />In the meantime, there could be robotic clergymen and women, whose sermons never change, and don’t ask for anything to be placed in offering baskets. After the sermon ends, a bot clergy‘person’ is shut off and locked in a safe.Alan Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996922923136240709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19749705901314435662023-02-11T11:49:10.159-08:002023-02-11T11:49:10.159-08:00Is feudalism an attractor state? The SCA certainly...<i>Is feudalism an attractor state? The SCA certainly suggests that.</i><br /><br />Also the well-known American fascination with British Royalty. Not to mention the way you treat the family of your country's leader (to the extent of giving them ceremonial duties…).<br /><br />We are hierarchical primates. The trick is to rise above our instincts, as Darwin noted.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04909011338723657265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-61886416992872255242023-02-11T09:19:23.661-08:002023-02-11T09:19:23.661-08:00Alfred,
Generalism? I suppose you could add the -...Alfred,<br /><br />Generalism? I suppose you could add the -ism suffix to just about anything. My kids have guinea pigs, which are cute and fluffy, so I must be a GuineaPigist. But then, I love my daughter's 10-year old bearded dragon (that's 100 in lizard years), so I'm a Dragonist, too. What I am not is a Capitalist, Communist, Socialist, or any of the -ists people so often and so blindly hurl at one another.<br /><br />I am somewhat fond of General Systems Theory, with its feedback loops, but that's only because it works in nature all over the place. If I am ever shown that feedbacks loops are really something else, then I'll change my mind. Would that make me a scientist?<br /><br /><br />PSBLenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693969299639295594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73869228465038158352023-02-11T09:13:21.683-08:002023-02-11T09:13:21.683-08:00Dr. Brin,
Human nature is not a static thing, tho...Dr. Brin,<br /><br />Human nature is not a static thing, though it changes extremely slowly. The past 4 million years have seen a decrease in the testosterone levels (the competition instinct) as evidenced by the reduction in hominid robustness (more testosterone = more muscle mass = more robust bones, the reverse is where hominids are headed). The much more sudden reduction in T-levels that happened between 100 and 50 tya suggests that competition had become maladaptive and likely has something to do with why the species nearly went extinct. At the same time, the fossil evidence shows that sexual dimorphism has been shrinking, making the species decreasingly "masculine." Now look at technology, which changed very, very slowly at first, but began to take off after 50 tya, a major punctuation in the ratio of competitiveness to cooperativeness in the species. Then, around 8000 tya, technology changed quite dramatically with the shift to agriculture and storable crops. This is a condition which shifts the balance more toward competition, and that is where the hominids have been since. However, technology has been changing at an increasing, nigh on exponential, rate. At some point human technology will allow them to start tinkering with their instincts, directing changes in human nature at a fundamental level.<br /><br />When that happens, do you want people who believe in ruthless competition to be running the show? You probably remember the "meet the meat" scene in "Restaurant at the End of the Universe." What do you think people who have the attitudes of the Sacklers would do? Create a workforce of humans who are quite content being slaves to those "genetically superior" winners in the competitive market, no doubt. Forget human rights. Human rights are reserved for the "winners." As long as we believe that we are competitive by nature, and that competition is a universal good, we will create oligarchy. It's a constant fight as it is. If humans reach this point, the fight will be over, and dictatorship will become universal for that species.<br /><br />I would rather we spent less emphasis on glorifying those who are most likely to betray us, and more emphasis on those elements of human flexibility that promote equality and basic human rights.<br /><br />And maybe that explains the Fermi Paradox. Any species that is cooperative enough by nature to avoid this trap will probably see what's coming on Earth and quarantine the planet.<br /><br />PSBLenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693969299639295594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15602004984582503242023-02-11T08:56:57.303-08:002023-02-11T08:56:57.303-08:00Is feudalism an attractor state? The SCA certainly...Is feudalism an attractor state? The SCA certainly suggests that. I tend to think of it as a default, low-energy state, a patchwork of local power centers that emerge when a larger state fails or falls. The inhabitants of medieval Europe or Japan did not perceive themselves as being in a feudal "system" the way they recognized the existence of an empire or shogunate, but this may be just a battle of definitions. I also suspect I'm deliberately misusing the term "attractor". :)<br /><br />Pappenheimer<br /><br />P.S. "..feudalism for 6000 years has rewarded the bulliest males with harems." True, but there are ALWAYS sneaker males. It's even encoded into the troubador oeuvre, though the love was always "chaste". It's hard to categorize Lancelot and Tristan as sneaker males, though...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08628667566485965800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-51422965967014796642023-02-11T06:57:40.319-08:002023-02-11T06:57:40.319-08:00It’s like nailing Jello to the wall.
Not that har...<i> It’s like nailing Jello to the wall.</i><br /><br />Not that hard, actually. You just need to freeze the jello first.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04909011338723657265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41447857681140384602023-02-11T06:35:23.286-08:002023-02-11T06:35:23.286-08:00scidata:
It's revealing that we each and all ...scidata:<br /><i><br />It's revealing that we each and all whispered "GO!"<br /></i><br /><br />Since it's you, I'll mention that this was the theme of Asimov's <i>The End of Eternity</i>, which was about time travelers who interfered in history to protect humanity from catastrophes, but then also kept us from any sort of advancement, such that when we finally did make it into space, other species had filled it with metaphorical "No Trespassing" signs.<br /><br />The time travelers themselves always had a wistful nostalgia for the alternate histories which had space travel, even though they themselves were preventing those timelines from being realized.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19099704438853890282023-02-11T06:29:04.931-08:002023-02-11T06:29:04.931-08:00Alfred Differ:
I AM going to point out that I dou...Alfred Differ:<br /><i><br />I AM going to point out that I doubt anyone here would disagree that adaptation is a must. <br /></i><br /><br />Maybe you're on solid ground with "anyone <b>here</b>", but remember whoever it was on tv who insisted on a Constitutional right not to have things change.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27239136955809027642023-02-11T06:27:30.186-08:002023-02-11T06:27:30.186-08:00Alan Brooks:
He critiques the main post not on li...Alan Brooks:<br /><i><br />He critiques the main post not on literary grounds but, rather, from an environmental perspective.<br /></i><br /><br />He critiques the main post as if the author's intent is to cheer for the rich dudes and hiss at the environmentalists. As if we, the readers, need to have it pointed out that the environmentalists have a point. As if the author missed that point instead of presenting a complex situation where both sides have an understandable POV and act accordingly.<br /><br /><i><br />Reason I became interested in futurism: having traveled to California after HS. Was reading a futurist book which said Newport Beach (at the time) was a futurist place—then it flashed that I was in Newport Beach. Synchronicity.<br /></i><br /><br />Heh. I've had flashes of that sort. The only specific one I can think of is very esoteric in nature. Long before I began reading the <i>Cerebus</i> comic, I knew that the writer intended to keep the series going until issue #300. He even broadcast the month when that episode would appear, assuming the book stayed on its monthly course for decades, March 2004.<br /><br />It wasn't until 1993 that I became interested enough to start collecting back issues in order to read the entire series as a novel. I had determined that I would not start reading until I had the entire story (up to the then-present month) in my hands, which happened some time in 1994. Meanwhile, I kept buying each new issue, even though I had not caught up to them yet.<br /><br />It was in November 1995 when the newest issue was #200 that I began a run-for-the-roses attempt to read something like 50 issues in a mad rush to the present. And in one of the intervening books, Dave Sim plays mind games with the reader, intending to induce a feeling of disorientation. He does so by (as himself within the story) mentioning offhand that after John Lennon's death in 1980, he kept a secret that he was only now revealing, that he would not go 300 issues, but would end "with issue #200 in November 1995".<br /><br />Somehow, I garbled the text in my head, and I read that as if he intended to <b>reveal</b> the secret in November 1995, which was some two years later than the month the issue with the statement was published. So I was left to ponder, "How the heck did he know that I'd be reading this for the first time in November 1995?"<br /><br />I know, you had to be there. :)Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59635774801890845932023-02-11T04:35:29.963-08:002023-02-11T04:35:29.963-08:00I've watched all sorts of launches (on TV), wh...I've watched all sorts of launches (on TV), while in the company of all sorts of people, from all sorts of countries and states. It's revealing that we each and all whispered "GO!"<br /><br />OCTOBER SKY captured this instinct nicely too. Not all attractor states are bad.scidatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07152319593457629592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64830747336312853852023-02-11T01:24:22.130-08:002023-02-11T01:24:22.130-08:00*forgot to include drought. All the factors (as yo...*forgot to include drought. All the factors (as you know) can be exacerbated by us but, save for pandemics and cancer, predate us by billions of yrs.<br />Of course there’re other factors—but the short it’s will suffice.Alan Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996922923136240709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22925066187338997572023-02-11T00:06:29.382-08:002023-02-11T00:06:29.382-08:00LoCum is challenging, will grant him that. He crit...LoCum is challenging, will grant him that. He critiques the main post not on literary grounds but, rather, from an environmental perspective.<br />But naturally, not all our threats are man-made. Earthquakes, volcanoes, solar flares, tsunamis, floods, typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes, pandemics, cancer... Even asteroids. A statistician once told me “Earth is outside the asteroid belt”—yet somehow his statement was not entirely reassuring. <br />—<br />Actually, I think in the zero-sum manner in which LiCum thinks; difference is, I consider such thinking a liability, not asset. Am not ready to throw in the towel. <br />Reason I became interested in futurism: having traveled to California after HS. Was reading a futurist book which said Newport Beach (at the time) was a futurist place—then it flashed that I was in Newport Beach. Synchronicity.Alan Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17996922923136240709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-91055896690246334872023-02-11T00:05:03.559-08:002023-02-11T00:05:03.559-08:00PSB,
Any strategy that works now cannot be counte...PSB,<br /><br /><i>Any strategy that works now cannot be counted on to work forever.</i><br /><br />For anything alive, that's a given.<br /><br /><i>That's why I favor a few general principals over any -ism.</i><br /><br />Wouldn't that mean you favor generalisms?<br /><br />I'm not trying to be too snarky here. I AM going to point out that I doubt anyone here would disagree that adaptation is a must. If our adversaries do it, so must we.<br /><br />======<br /><br />The problem is older than 6,000 years, but it's not documented anywhere except in our genomes and archeological sites. <br /><br />Feudalism is an attractor state and The West is trying to avoid falling back to it. So far so good.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9141341383393918942023-02-10T21:33:35.794-08:002023-02-10T21:33:35.794-08:00"I still think you missed my point. Any strat..."I still think you missed my point. Any strategy that works now cannot be counted on to work forever."<br /><br />Yes. So? Every generation must discover and stanch the new cheats that are innovated to get around previous reforms.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-54667645949399605482023-02-10T21:27:28.796-08:002023-02-10T21:27:28.796-08:00I remember one high school teacher I had who insis...I remember one high school teacher I had who insisted that if we were really capitalist we would have a 100% inheritance tax. But since then I've learned a whole lot more. Even if you tax away all inheritance, the children still have all the advantages of upper-crust education and connections in the business world, so they will still have huge unfair advantages.<br /><br />I still think you missed my point. Any strategy that works now cannot be counted on to work forever. Diachronic variation happens, and if we fail to adapt, we die. That's why I favor a few general principals over any -ism. 6000 years is a blip in time, even for a species that has only been around a quarter of a million.<br /><br /><br />PSBLenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693969299639295594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2152710188341177952023-02-10T20:21:55.128-08:002023-02-10T20:21:55.128-08:00Oy.
1. Sorry I bewilder you, locu, Since I have a ...Oy.<br />1. Sorry I bewilder you, locu, Since I have a long record of BOTH appreciating deeply expert fact and exploration professionals AND extolling breadth and positive sum participation by amateurs, any cognitive inability to understand is not my fault, but rather an epiphenomenon of your 2-D absolute inability to grasp anything that’s not zero sum. It’s all your perceptions, son.<br /><br />2. LH in fact, it was only under Reagan that the GOP was (in balance) more anti Moscow than Democrats. The most vigorous proponents of containing stalinism were the AFL-CIO and US labor, while there’s always been a segment of the right eager to ‘do business’ with Moscow.<br /><br />3. David… what you said. Today’s Foxites worship Putin’s 500 “ex” commissars who grew up reciting Leninist catechisms 5x per day but changed a few symbols and instantly snared the US right.<br /><br />4. Well, Elon was at least upper middle, maybe even bottom upper class.<br /><br />5. AB: That’s why I wrote Polemical Judo, by David Brin: http://www.davidbrin.com/polemicaljudo.html<br /><br />6. PSB feudalism for 6000 years has rewarded the bulliest males with harems. In any event, no symbolic reward system will ever stave off feudalism for long. I favor capitalism as Smith prescribed, rewarding those who improve goods/services! But each billion$ should be HARDER than the previous one, not much much easier. And the children of the rich are already hugely advantaged! A house and a grocery trust and maybe… maybe… a $5million investment fund… or a genuinely legacy family farm… are all anyone should inherit. David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70380007777761684312023-02-10T20:02:18.862-08:002023-02-10T20:02:18.862-08:00Dr. Brin,
Your response makes me think that you m...Dr. Brin,<br /><br />Your response makes me think that you might think that I think something that I don't think at all (I think). And that immediately makes me think that I am not communicating my meaning very well. Often that's a result of different people having different assumption sets, which they naturally don't come out and say because they seem so normal they don't think they need to say them. <br /><br />To be clear, I am not suggesting some government intervention in the financial deeds of the filthy rich. The harder government tries to reign them in, the harder they try to corrupt the government. What I am talking about is norms and values. The government could play a role here. If the mayor of every town and city gave out a medal to citizens they catch in the act of doing good, and plaster their names and faces all over, that would help to attach merit to goodness. Sure, the slime would still laugh, but they can laugh in prison all they like, if only governments would be more consistent about prosecuting white-collar crimes. That, too, would counter some of the prestige people grant to the wealthy, however dishonestly they acquired it. <br /><br />In the words of Adam Smith: "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices" Those who maximize money often do so at the expense of the very society which made their wealth possible. <br /><br />Religion has immense power, but history has shown it to not be an unequivocal force for good. All the major religions either derived from the need of the state to control the people (as in the Divine Right of Kings) or derived second-hand from some state-sponsored official religion. They are all corrupted by power, and their texts are so long and convoluted that the followers could go on and on about peace and love one day, then use their holy texts to justify murder and war the next. <br /><br />Unfortunately, cultural norms and values rarely change quickly or consistently. We might be in a better place if we understood exactly what happened between 50 and 100 kilo years ago that nearly caused human extinction, and left the survivors with dramatically lower testosterone levels. It looks as though the past few million years of human evolution has been about making humans less competitive and more equal overall. But no adaptation, however good, will be right for all times and places. Veblen-style conspicuous consumption may have done much to spur industrialization, draw people off the farms, and, with sufficient government regulation to reign in the excesses of those highly competitive capitalists, done much to raise the lives of the masses, there may come a time when it turns from blessing to maladaptation. Most complex societies that have collapsed were brought down by the very system which caused them to rise in the first place. Adapt or die is the rule.<br /><br />PSBLenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693969299639295594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-79056390214444805522023-02-10T19:38:38.752-08:002023-02-10T19:38:38.752-08:00Larry,
Clinical depression is a huge problem that...Larry,<br /><br />Clinical depression is a huge problem that is only just getting some of the attention it deserves, due to the pandemic. I have a book on my shelf that was recommended by Dr. Brin right here that makes the point that rates of depression are substantially lower in countries that have socialized medicine and less of a compete-or-die vibe than the US does. Of course, the majority of Americans still seem to think that clinical depression is just an excuse to be lazy (Reagan gave us a huge collective blow to the head with all his "welfare queen" bull, a tactic he knew would work because it worked for Hitler - see Mein Kampf chapter 2), and if a person has a therapist people laugh at them. Culture is a real bitch, isn't it?<br /><br />"We don't want "merit" to derive from wealth, but don't we (to some extent) wish for wealth to derive from merit?" <br />I think that is exactly the point. <br /><br />or as Adam Smith put it:<br /><br />"The disposition to admire, and almost to worship, the rich and powerful, and to despise, or, at least, neglect persons of poor or mean conditions... is the great and most universal cause of the corruption of our moral sentiments."<br /><br />PSBLenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05693969299639295594noreply@blogger.com