tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post7038843207500075954..comments2024-03-28T22:45:34.599-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: American Exceptionalism... versus what has made America exceptionalDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11625531733998869082012-10-04T22:35:22.451-07:002012-10-04T22:35:22.451-07:00This post (on Wal-Mart, leftism, and patriotism) s...This post (on Wal-Mart, leftism, and patriotism) seems to me to attack a series of stereotypical (and, I would suggest, somewhat imaginary) targets -- evil republicans, anti-patriotic leftists, all wrapped up in a series of easy ironies. <br /><br />I'm often called a leftist. I don't think of myself that way. I've been known to harshly criticize American foreign policy, and because of this some people think I "hate America" and that I am somehow driven by resentment and secret self-loathing, even though I, like most of the lefties I know, have never professed any such hatred. Much more frequently, it seems that people on the center or the right just <i>assume</i> that people on the left "hate America," for reasons I've never been entirely clear on.<br /><br />I would really like to know why being a "leftist" should have to put me or anyone on the defensive about loving/expression patriotism for an entire <i>country</i>. A country is too huge to love. I love New York City. There are patriots in Alabama who love Alabama and hate New York City every bit as much as North Korea, if not more. Every American has a different concept of America, and they love something unique. No one loves the country en masse. People fight for the part that they love. To do so, they often must fight their fellow countryman.<br /><br />As for "spurning real allies"....Dr. Brin, you are late to the party here! Paleocons and Greens and Lefties have been talking at length for quite some time now. That's why you see Andrew Bacevich (a conservative former career officer) routinely published on lefty websites, and Tom Engelhart, a "Nation Fellow" linked to on the website of American Conservative. This phenomenon is also in view in the Tea Party and OWS movements, not to mention the cross-spectrum support received by Ron Paul.Andrew S. Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13868554030118262701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-7879292325161385172012-10-03T06:42:52.752-07:002012-10-03T06:42:52.752-07:00Dr Brin,
You said "I share your mixed feelin...Dr Brin,<br /><br />You said "I share your mixed feelings, Paul. Mostly I am resigned that this outrageous over-reach of state power is unavoidable and even voicing this paragraph about it would be dangerous. "<br /><br />I previously researched this issue using a meta-analysis approach ( a set of statistical methods designed to accumulate independent study results that address a related set of questions). I went through all the scientific literature and queried the membership lists of NARTH and various groups such as Exodus International. The end result was that the methodological quality of the literature was so bad that very little could be concluded. When I eliminated the uncontrolled case studies, those studies that had some methodological adequacy showed no treatment effect. In other words Reparative Therapies do not work. However followup was so bad that no long term conclusions could be reached. The data from NARTH and the religious groups were even worse.<br /><br />Frankly I think its about time that this sort of fake therapy should be banned. We have already banned many bogus treatments (Orgone Therapy for instance) why not this one. It is potentially very damaging to the individual, and only serves to transfer money from the victim to the conmen who call themselves therapists specializing in this therapy. In the end its merely part of regulating the clinical psychology profession - just like the medical profession is regulated.Larry C. Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04315424229764736078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36500808025776118582012-10-02T20:22:40.564-07:002012-10-02T20:22:40.564-07:00Bland, while nearly all of the heat would go out o...Bland, while nearly all of the heat would go out of the discussions... and all the persecution would vanish... there would be residual issues. e.g. the fact that pure-hetero guys like me are mystified why anybody (including women!) would find a hairy, smelly gross human male attractive.<br /><br />We just don't see it. Cannot envision it. It's not even logical. We are GLAD that women can selectively accomplish that miracle upon chosen male husbands/lovers! And gay guys have a perfect right!<br /><br />But please. Don't ask us to find the concept appealing. <br /><br />===<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83271296856401188172012-10-02T17:37:05.829-07:002012-10-02T17:37:05.829-07:00Your feelings about "gay" being an absol...Your feelings about "gay" being an absolute seems analogous to "blackness" as it has been defined over the centuries: Any black blood = black. The thing that both have (or have had) in common is societal stigma.<br /><br />The all or nothing judgement is a result of the stigma. I'm sure you can imagine a world where sexual persuasions are not an issue. Would anybody care to argue gay vs. not gay or nature vs. nurture in such a society? I think it just wouldn't matter.Bland Allisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233794853475974161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25219149897067484672012-10-02T15:39:58.883-07:002012-10-02T15:39:58.883-07:00Posting more frequently during the political seaso...Posting more frequently during the political season...<br /><br />...onward!David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-6618263921943082692012-10-02T15:17:48.584-07:002012-10-02T15:17:48.584-07:00Thanks for sharing the Stewart thing on Fox.
What...Thanks for sharing the Stewart thing on Fox.<br /><br />What a pity. Stewart is very very smart and I am glad he's out there. But I get SOOOO frustrated that he misses the key points.<br /><br /> He should have said:<br /><br />1) "Chris note what you just did. You did not even try to refute what I said about Fox News! You did not try to refute a single word that I said. Your only response boils down to 'everybody else does it too!' Really? THAT is your defense of Fox?"<br /><br />2) "I may do comedy. But I have more top opposing guests on my show than all of Fox combined."David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5072417191494045892012-10-02T13:20:09.002-07:002012-10-02T13:20:09.002-07:00Rob - You're absolutely right about Progressiv...Rob - You're absolutely right about Progressive overreach. As a good Southerner, Wilson was all for eugenics, and rigorously excluded blacks from White House functions (TR made a point of inviting them). And there was Palmer's reign of terror - which went well beyond what either McCarthy or Cheney could inflict. And as for Wilson's Messiah complex, neither of the Roosevelts, with Messiah complexes of their own, could come close.<br /><br />The two big events which did in the Left were the outbreak of World War I (which also destroyed the myth of <i>automatic</i> progress - we now know progress requires hard work and nothing is guaranteed) and the rise of the Soviet Union, which led to relentless attacks on the more decent part of the Left by the Communists themselves, and also provided a horrible example. The Sixties simply nailed the coffin shut.<br /><br />And the Right managed the same slide in 20 years. Of course the Foxburo has decided that real conservative intellectuals are doubleplusungood unpersons and locked them out. They're not all gone - check out Andrew Sullivan's blog or The American Conservative.<br /><br />The California law is overreach, definitely. For the state to try to anything about bad parents outside of gross abuse is stupid.<br />Ironically, the law (rightly) doesn't touch unlicensed counsellors - about 90 percent of the cases. So why bother. Another irony - the really bad "therapists" could and should be arrested under existing law for simple abuse.<br /><br />By the way, I think there is some evidence that male sexuality is more determined than female. But, unlike the lefties, I put a high value on biology and genetics before the big switch. And the <i>really</i> bonkers lefties <i>still</i> think it's all culturally determined and needs to be deconstructed.<br /><br />Thanks for a great thread.<br /><br />Bob Pfeiffer.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05763643308644698795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-478241073742019892012-10-02T12:13:57.296-07:002012-10-02T12:13:57.296-07:00BTW,on the subject of Jon Stewart having the guts ...BTW,on the subject of Jon Stewart having the guts to have conservative pundits on his show, have you all seen this clip of him on Fox News? Because it was a first for me.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKLRmVYk0-s" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKLRmVYk0-s</a>sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-71821841256000993172012-10-02T12:03:11.748-07:002012-10-02T12:03:11.748-07:00@Robert -- The energy died in part because the Pro...@Robert -- The energy died in part because the Progressives overreached. They got into eugenics and breaking up families and began suppressing speech in the service of safety for democracy. The people got tired of frenetic top-down reform and created the 1920's. :-)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541997928359883625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-74855836831578622182012-10-02T11:39:28.122-07:002012-10-02T11:39:28.122-07:00PAU451: "Isee that California has banned gay ...PAU451: "Isee that California has banned gay "cures" (ie, pray-the-gay-away.)"<br /><br />I share your mixed feelings, Paul. Mostly I am resigned that this outrageous over-reach of state power is unavoidable and even voicing this paragraph about it would be dangerous. Mind you, 99% of such centers are charlatans vampiring off the hope/obstinacy of desperately unhappy parents, manifesting grossly stupid prejudice combined with an absolute failure to show effectiveness or outcomes. The kids brought to such centers suffer... but honestly, mostly roll their eyes and wait it out. Having said that, let me add that the left is almost as monomaniacally crazy, insisting that gayness is an absolutely predetermined on-off switch, determined genetically before birth and completely un-modifiable. (1) There is no such power in attitudinal switches in humans, (2) it is an absolute reversal from standard leftist doctrine that human morals and behavior etc are matters of choice and have no basis in genetics or evolution. Their inability to detect this blatant swerve, or the accompanying irony, is proof of dogmatic monomania. And really rather sad.<br /><br />Mind you, I side with gay rights! But I refuse to turn off all scientific critique for political purposes. This notion of an on-off switch is NOT applied to the female side, where a spectrum of bi-sexuality is blithely accepted. But on the male side the rule is "you are defined by what attracts you, and that definition is permanent. And if it ever was a gay attraction, then that dominates and defines you forever." That dogma may have caused as much misery as the "pray-it-away" idiots have. Sorry. I hope the bill allowed exceptions for bona fide research, because this is a realm that merits unbiased and curiosity-driven study, not dogma of either left or right.<br /><br />Mitchell, I never said that counter-mercantilism was publicly declared by the US elites, back in the late 1940s. Indeed, while liberals saw it as a way to help the world, conservatives saw it as a way to break labor unions. Did you ever see the movie IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT? It was about the first stage of textile movement from the north to the non-union south. Then NORMA RAE told of the unionizing of those southern plants. After which they closed and moved to Asia in exactly the sequence I described. Those workers then found jobs in Johnson's "industrialization of the South."<br /><br />I disagree about tariffs. "Uplifting the world via WalMart" isAmerica's 2nd greatest accomplishment, after simply maintaining peace and curing the communist fever. What we need is to stay rich enough to pay for it all! Till 2001 we were doing that with science and innovation. and ending that was Bush's greatest crime.<br /><br />Robert, the intellectual level of today's left is appalling. None of those I know, even professors, has studied or analyzed Marx or his critics, nor Adam Smith. The only people dopier as the "intellects" of the right. <br /><br />Sociotard, you know that Obama might have been able to do more if Congress did not block him every day. In fact, he briefly did a lot, despite filibusters, in 2009-2010. We can hope.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73446900282133198452012-10-02T08:28:22.913-07:002012-10-02T08:28:22.913-07:00I've said it before: neither candidate strikes...I've said it before: neither candidate strikes me as especially worse than the other. I don't think either will bring more peace or more prosperity.<br /><br />Now read this:<br /><a href="http://blogs.ft.com/the-a-list/2012/04/02/only-the-rich-are-benefiting-from-americas-recovery/#axzz2832d2IIG" rel="nofollow">Only the rich are benefiting from America’s recovery</a><br /><i>Washington doesn’t want to talk about this lopsided recovery. The Obama administration would rather focus on the recovery without mentioning whose it is. Perhaps it’s because almost all Democratic and independent voters are in the bottom 90 per cent.<br /><br />Republicans would rather not talk about the lopsidedness of this recovery either because they’d rather not bring up the subject of inequality to begin with. Their reverse-Robin Hood budget plans cut taxes on the rich and slash public services everyone else depends on.</i><br /><br />Oh my, this must come out of some uber-leftist rag, except, what's this, it came from the Financial Times.sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26619109139318581072012-10-02T08:01:47.388-07:002012-10-02T08:01:47.388-07:00Kudos for the Marshall essay! Magnificent. Hardl...Kudos for the Marshall essay! Magnificent. Hardly surprising that Joe McCarthy thought he was a Communist, I guess.<br /><br />As Robert Poole has already said, they still remember Marshall in Germany. They certainly did when I lived there as a kid, at the time the Berlin Wall went up. Together with Churchill, he was the wartime figure West Germans universally admired. When the wall finally went down, a lot of essays about him appeared in German newspapers.<br /><br />I am saddened by the low quality of the Left today compared with a century ago - at least around 1905 they had first-rate thinkers and writers, and were worth arguing with. And, in America, they were both optimistic and patriotic.<br /><br />I think the one thing it is right - occasionally - to be nostalgic about is the tremendous energy and sense of progress that existed before World War I.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05763643308644698795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48411817420576376222012-10-02T06:51:31.436-07:002012-10-02T06:51:31.436-07:00As a Canadian living in the US for the last 20 yea...As a Canadian living in the US for the last 20 years I like to think that I have a good perspective on American Exceptionalism. Frankly most non-American's opinion on it is nowhere as good as Americans believe. Actually its generally pretty negative. And for very good reasons. All too often its been used as an excuse for conquest, military or economic. Its been used as an excuse for some pretty odious actions by American corporations or governments. Larry C. Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04315424229764736078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1816512150109365272012-10-02T06:34:37.889-07:002012-10-02T06:34:37.889-07:00David, is there any actual evidence that our leade...David, is there any actual evidence that our leaders consciously and directly said to the American people that we are doing the world a favor by hollowing out our manufacturing base, degrading the lives of millions of American workers and their families, and ensuring that most of the profits from trade went to the top 10%, as the Federal Reserve studies over the past decade have shown?<br /><br />Your argument makes me want to say that restoring the top 2%'s income tax rates to Clinton era is not enough. There seems to have been a horribly unequal sacrifice from the workers who were forced to compete with slave level wages around the globe, but not us professionals, with our protections through testing and licensing in each state and nation.<br /><br />I also wonder whether the people in Central and South America would be as sanguine about American leaders' efforts, and whether there is reason to suggest that the violence was concentrated in areas that would reveal at least a level of cruel indifference and callousness on the part of our leaders.<br /><br />Finally, I think it would have been far better for the US to embrace a strong tariff policy vis a vis foreign imports and promoted regions around the world where there was equal level of development to trade with and build up each other. Chinese workers would certainly have had more gains had the business leaders there found America's markets limited or closed, as Chinese business leaders would have had to follow Henry Ford's $5 a day promotion of 1905. And again American workers would not have had to bear the brunt of the world's "development."Mitchell J. Freedmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09999515428915501896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48055826349122610662012-10-02T05:24:09.485-07:002012-10-02T05:24:09.485-07:00I see that California has banned gay "cures&q...I see that California has banned gay "cures" (ie, pray-the-gay-away.)<br /><br />I'm torn between supporting freedom and hating intolerance, and hating intolerance and supporting freedom.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8765517007466589062012-10-02T05:16:05.380-07:002012-10-02T05:16:05.380-07:00Re: Second image
Sad astronaut is sad?Re: Second image<br /><br />Sad astronaut is sad?Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-57253981506441495762012-10-02T04:09:32.781-07:002012-10-02T04:09:32.781-07:00What makes American self-criticism exceptional is ...What makes American self-criticism exceptional is the tendency to not only discuss the elephant in the room, but to go up to that elephant and kick it in the nuts. Unfortunately, speech codes, political correctness and other restrictions on speech are building a wall around that elephant. I give you Larry Summers, then head of Harvard, who suggested that perhaps the reason that more women aren't in science is that part of the pool of women who might be scientists preferred to be homemakers or non-scientists. I read his actual statement, and I had no problem with it. It was well reasoned and in no way condescending. He made it clear that women were just as capable as men in science, and they should be free to choose their career path. But because he dared to suggest some women might choose to do something that uberfeminists opposed, he was drummed out of Harvard. One comment I read said that he shouldn't be allowed to make such comments. Another made it clear how "evil" he was for such "hate speech". I suspect that latter commenter had not read what Summers actually said, but only a headline on Yahoo. This is how we are losing our exceptionalism: by limiting free speech, by declaring anything we don't like to be "hate speech", by punishing thought through the use of "hate crimes", by the creation of "speech codes" in what are supposed to be the bastions of free discourse.Scott Hedricknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56205020192525522742012-10-02T00:25:13.043-07:002012-10-02T00:25:13.043-07:00Nothing idiotic about 'My country, right or wr...Nothing idiotic about 'My country, right or wrong' so long as you're willing to recognise when it's right or wrong.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-28991902701755729902012-10-02T00:21:27.932-07:002012-10-02T00:21:27.932-07:00Tell him his sanctimony is cheating. The bigges...Tell him his sanctimony is cheating. The biggest flag wavers in America in the 1850s were in the South... just before they committed mass treason.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66350863602500583502012-10-01T21:39:24.385-07:002012-10-01T21:39:24.385-07:00Any tips on how to convince a jingoist that idiocy...Any tips on how to convince a jingoist that idiocy like "My Country, right or wrong!" and "USA, Love it or leave it!" and the like is, in fact, idiocy? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66926553554172810862012-10-01T17:52:42.748-07:002012-10-01T17:52:42.748-07:001. I'm proud of my country.
2. I'm also e...1. I'm proud of my country.<br /><br />2. I'm also embarrassed and/or ashamed of some of the things we've done.<br /><br />#1 and #2 are not contradictions; most parents can say the same of their kids. But it can't hurt to talk up #1 as often as possible, while dealing with #2 as necessary.<br /><br />I am reminded of my <br /><a href="https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/399589_479857292035287_1394278919_n.jpg" rel="nofollow">my favorite image at I F'ing Love Science</a>:<br /><b>"SCIENCE:<br />If you don't make mistakes, you're doing it wrong.<br />If you don't correct those mistakes, you're doing it really wrong.<br />If you can't accept that you're mistaken, you're not doing it at all."</b><br /><br />This might be true of democracy as well.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-86787873893999945662012-10-01T17:45:36.512-07:002012-10-01T17:45:36.512-07:00Robert Poole, the distinction between liberals and...<br />Robert Poole, the distinction between liberals and lefties is an extremely real one which I had to experience all day today. The lefties came out in force, absolutely bent on denying that there has been any progress in improving civilization or the plight of women or the poor... and any that did happen certainly had nothing to do with the USA. Liberals, in contrast, are vastly moire numerous, control the democratic party, are pragmatists and their eagerness for progress is BASED upon the confident and proud knowledge that much progress has already occurred.<br /><br />If you are being pedantic with me about the word "liberal' and insisting that it stand for "liberal economics" as laid out by Adam Smith, then I respond that today's "liberals" are by far the closest acolytes of Adam Smith. Unlike leftists and the oligarchy-loving right, today's liberal democrats want capitalism and markets to work and continue generating vast wealth. They are the ones eager to invest in whatever it takes to do Smith's will... to maximize the number of youths who grow up with the health, education and confidence to compete well in a lively and fun and productive market.<br /><br />Hans, my favorite patriotic symbol is the diamond shaped social structure, with few at the top or bottom. (Though success is encouraged and failure is possible.) With CHURN so that you do not automatically inherit your parents' status. That diamond defies the traditional pyramid of privilege and it should be our flag.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72541917635321334652012-10-01T16:54:36.523-07:002012-10-01T16:54:36.523-07:00Thanks for mentioning your facebook page. Though ...Thanks for mentioning your facebook page. Though I generally only use mine to support a youth group I work with, I'll certainly take a look at yours to see wot's up with the "screechers" <br /><br />On a separate note, I've always felt the constitution is one of our best patriotic symbols. When I took my oath when joining the military, I did so seriously. And I also believe the best way to show your patriotism is unwavering support of the first amendment, which clearly supports public criticism of bad ideas.<br /><br />HansHansnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47325402205026746182012-10-01T16:44:30.140-07:002012-10-01T16:44:30.140-07:00Good essay, Dr. Brin! I'd say excellent, exce...Good essay, Dr. Brin! I'd say excellent, except you seem to be unable to avoid using terms like "lefties" and "leftists." I really think those terms are needlessly argumentative and pejorative in nature, and only serve to undermine your point.<br />(1) Those terms are typically used as a means to disparage liberals, even though you took great pains to distinguish between liberals and "leftists."<br />(2) Like Bill Maher, I am hard pressed to find any "lefties" in American politics... or any real liberals whatsoever, for that matter. Aside from the professional protestor brigade, most of the members of the Democratic party decried as "liberals" by American conservatives are in fact moderates by anyone else's metric.<br /><br />I certainly wouldn't consider most (any?) Democrats in public office to be liberals.<br /><br />Aside from that, I certainly agreed with the actual substance of your argument. I specifically agree with what you had to say about the Marshall Plan (including in the separate essay at marshallfoundation.org which you linked here). I'd like to share a little something in this regard, if you don't mind.<br /><br />When I was in high school, I took German for all 4 years. I happened to have a neighbor couple from Germany who had lived through World War II, so sometimes I would get help on my essays from them. In between listening to records of German sea shanties and learning the difference between Speise and Lebensmittel, I would hear stories about wartime Germany, or afterward.<br /><br />Frankly, the afterward part seemed far scarier than the wartime part. Sure, Kurt would tell me how he was drafted into the army — he was grabbed by a passing truck on a dirt road. (Prior to that, he'd been working at an optics factory, which seemed kind of cool to me.) But the story about him riding through town on a bicycle to try and obtain bread and some spare tires for his bike makes me cringe to this day... probably because there were shady characters willing to kill for a crust of bread or a bicycle inner-tube.<br /><br />It was at this point that my German mentor's voice would catch, and he would talk about the Marshall plan, and how smart Gen. George Marshall was, what a good thing he did for Germany and Austria after the war. The raw emotion was so intense, even I couldn't miss it. There was a reverence there that surprised me; why more Americans don't speak of Marshall in a similarly reverent tone is a mystery to me. Kurt wasn't saying that he and his wife Inge had it easy; he was saying, rather, that they were treated fairly and honorably. That, and he was grateful.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01731514804464973414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22534647458928530892012-10-01T15:43:29.175-07:002012-10-01T15:43:29.175-07:00I'm reminded of something you wrote a while ba...I'm reminded of something you wrote a while back trying to convince us to thank others so they can't so easily conclude that we are all screechers. 8)Alfred Differnoreply@blogger.com