tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post6390178142807195582..comments2024-03-29T00:39:31.629-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Intelligence, Uplift, and Our Place in a Big CosmosDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85912361276837794542012-09-25T18:09:04.210-07:002012-09-25T18:09:04.210-07:00Your dog, maybe.
Speaking of humans, I would posit...Your dog, maybe.<br />Speaking of humans, I would posit that our ancestors' use of fire to manage hunting grounds had more of an effect on late mammalian evolution than hunting in itself did. I think our relationship to dogs came about in synch with that situation. I haven't thought about it enough to have gotten much further.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-33414687342656459752012-09-25T16:42:39.101-07:002012-09-25T16:42:39.101-07:00Most impressive canine trait. They know to look w...Most impressive canine trait. They know to look where we are pointing. Incredible. Wolves can't.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22213552731939497882012-09-25T16:34:05.585-07:002012-09-25T16:34:05.585-07:00Oh, if you want to squint and read the other predi...Oh, if you want to squint and read the other predictions on that spread:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.gameology.org/screenshots/usborne_guide_p_40_41" rel="nofollow">http://www.gameology.org/screenshots/usborne_guide_p_40_41</a><br /><br />(And I was wrong, it was a book, not an ad)sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59588609420510163742012-09-25T16:23:39.821-07:002012-09-25T16:23:39.821-07:00"They are already pretty damned good. I have ...<br />"They are already pretty damned good. I have had a dog signal "Lassie style" when a patient was seizing. And my 90 year old father with dementia bonds marvelously with his small stupid lap dog. If we could make the critters a little smarter, say able to activate a home monitoring unit that would set up a link to a human who could check on status...asleep, in trouble, deceased, that would be progress."<br /><br />Now it's my turn to be the conservative.<br /><br />Humans and dogs have been coevolving for at least the past 10,000 years (and I susect a lot longer.)<br /><br />We've adapted to each other and each species has shaped the other.<br /><br />Do we really want to change that equilibrium?Ian Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07666385933765478081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80612634226655809582012-09-25T16:00:34.938-07:002012-09-25T16:00:34.938-07:00Citation on the picture is
Graham, Ian. Usborne Gu...Citation on the picture is<br />Graham, Ian. <i>Usborne Guide to Computer and Video Games</i>, 1982.<br />sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60248837530679634752012-09-25T14:03:14.912-07:002012-09-25T14:03:14.912-07:00Tacitus, terrific post. Welcome back.
Sociotard ...Tacitus, terrific post. Welcome back.<br /><br />Sociotard when was that ad published?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-62194411537623777132012-09-25T12:53:42.708-07:002012-09-25T12:53:42.708-07:00Oh, it is delightful when those "what the fut...Oh, it is delightful when those "what the future will be like" ads from yesteryear actually get it right.<br /><br /><a href="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ejUCKxUEMZg/UEoewWUKR6I/AAAAAAAATwA/UWdtB83r8RU/w497-h373/2000.jpg" rel="nofollow">https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ejUCKxUEMZg/UEoewWUKR6I/AAAAAAAATwA/UWdtB83r8RU/w497-h373/2000.jpg</a>sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70880341278274518602012-09-25T09:33:36.380-07:002012-09-25T09:33:36.380-07:00Of course, monkeys can already be waiters.
http://...Of course, monkeys can already be waiters.<br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsP-52FgI9c" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsP-52FgI9c</a><br /><br />I'd also be interested in finally applying that silver fox research to domesticate new pets, just to do it. Maybe a black bear or a pygmy hippo. In my head it is awesome.sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47431023304783308882012-09-25T08:28:00.126-07:002012-09-25T08:28:00.126-07:00I'm not too sure the animals would thank us, a... I'm not too sure the animals would thank us, after all, we'd have some explaining to do, but to have something like Spider Robinson's "Dog day evening" (From "Time travelers strictly cash".) might be possible would make it a more interesting world.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30645791684298438962012-09-25T07:28:40.530-07:002012-09-25T07:28:40.530-07:00So what's the antonym to "Going Galt"...So what's the antonym to "Going Galt"?<br /><br />Steve Wozniak claims he's in the process of becoming an Australian citizen and moving here full-time.<br /><br />He specifically cited the government-funded National Broadband Network as one of his reasosn for the move.<br /><br />http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/14954397/apples-wozniak-wants-to-become-australian-reports/<br /><br />While I'm sure Steve's money people are ensuring he doesn't pay any more additional tax than he has to, Australia's tax rates are wll above those in the US.<br /><br />Ian Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07666385933765478081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41355735484499878822012-09-25T07:11:14.851-07:002012-09-25T07:11:14.851-07:00An apolitical posting, except for the observation ...An apolitical posting, except for the observation that as a conservative I prefer a slower (or more reasoned) rate of change.<br /><br />I recall reading Childhood's End for the first time and being both in awe of the imagination of Sir Arthur...and appalled at the images.<br />I for sure would have been one of the rebels hiding in caves in the first half of the book. And if I were doomed to live the second half, where our children leave us...I don't know what I would do.<br /><br />But regards Uplift I can see some reachable and reasoned changes in the next couple of decades. Feel free to suggest your own.<br /><br />Improved companion animals. They are already pretty damned good. I have had a dog signal "Lassie style" when a patient was seizing. And my 90 year old father with dementia bonds marvelously with his small stupid lap dog. If we could make the critters a little smarter, say able to activate a home monitoring unit that would set up a link to a human who could check on status...asleep, in trouble, deceased, that would be progress.<br /><br />Capuchin monkeys as fast food counter help. The accuracy of orders would improve. No change to count, it will soon all be card swipes. And even I, who disdain such vittles, would go in for the occasional MonkDonalds burger.<br /><br />Dogs as bartenders. Same considerations as above. We could get past the lack of thumbs thing, just have a paw reader that would have to be pressed to activate the beer tap. Try and grab a paw and make him push the button?<br /><br />GRRRRRRRRR! Hey, German Shepards make great bouncers too!<br /><br />TacitusTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-42510341524500359722012-09-25T05:50:58.041-07:002012-09-25T05:50:58.041-07:00While investigating this 'sophist' divide ...While investigating this 'sophist' divide is interesting and worthwhile, I think that life in the universe faces a far bigger hurdle...<br /><br />Sex!<br /><br />How long were the prokaryotes around before the eukaryotes found out how to do a more efficient gene shuffle? What heights did the prokaryotes scale/slime up in that time?<br /> We're talking billions of years, here!<br /><br />PS finished Existence, which I enjoyed a great deal. Potted review:<br />Plusses: interesting ideas, subtle digs (Crichton! And did anyone else spot the reference to a much loved Python sketch?). No puns!<br />Minuses: last parts become increasingly detached from earlier sections. ( indeed, events implied by the very last chapter would make for a novel in itself!) Interesting themes and plots are left hanging. Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84647412236187843712012-09-24T17:28:52.993-07:002012-09-24T17:28:52.993-07:00The notion that we are a fluke is one that I think...The notion that we are a fluke is one that I think is most sound. A glass ceiling idea comes burdened with the idea of evolutionary goals which we know don't exist except in our minds. They are both neat ideas, but I'm not inclined to assume metaphysical requirements on us just yet. 8)<br /><br />The individual and social structures that support intelligence and reward its use come at quite a cost to us. If the rewards weren't as large, I'm sure we wouldn't have gone down this path.<br /><br />1. Being able to predict the behaviors of fellow humans is critical when it comes to reproductive success. This is the feedback reward I suspect.<br /><br />2. Being doubly selective means the mental traits one gender selects for in the other show up in themselves too. This is the feedback mechanism I think.<br /><br />3. The historical rewards have been largest when one can dominate the behaviors of many others. In this we share behaviors with our cousin species. Recently, though, the rewards have grown larger for groups that tolerate 'otherness' and exchange through trade instead. This is what sets modern humans apart, I suspect. We succeed because we trade.Alfred Differnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-88936362766822266642012-09-24T08:10:17.307-07:002012-09-24T08:10:17.307-07:00But isn't it true that 99%, or maybe 99.999% (...But isn't it true that 99%, or maybe 99.999% (I've read different numbers) of all species that have ever existed on earth have gone extinct? So one might say that any species that exists today is something of a fluke. Why pick out human-like intelligence as the particular trait for which there is a glass ceiling?<br /><br />I guess I'm arguing against the exceptionalist viewpoint -- you know, the view we've always had that there is something special about us or our particular circumstances. That the earth is the center of the universe, etc. etc. It's always turned out that we're a lot less special than we think.<br /><br />On the other hand, it's undeniable that, at least here on this planet -- and thus far in this planet's history -- humans ARE an exceptional, since we're the only ones to have created a technological civilization. So, maybe there is some reality to your glass ceiling theory. <br /><br />I guess I'm not convinced, but I'm not totally convinced otherwise, either. David Woolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13695441659840161874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68194401492140162062012-09-24T06:25:43.142-07:002012-09-24T06:25:43.142-07:00Dr. Brin, you said "Was it a confluence of ex...Dr. Brin, you said "Was it a confluence of experiences, trials and selections endured by bands of gregarious apes, squeezing through evolutionary bottlenecks, one after another? Or our bipedal gait, freeing hands for full time manipulation? Our complex mating and alliance habits? Or was it something like my own hypothetical process, Neoteny and two-way sexual selection? "<br /><br />Why focus on one thing. I suspect it was more of a matter of all of the above. The environmental changes that created our earliest ancestors also created the conditions that encouraged intelligence, as well as creating significant genetic bottlenecks that allowed the other factors (bipedalism, hands as tool users, communication etc) to come to the fore. In our reductionist thinking we keep focusing on one thing, instead of looking at the matrix of causes. Larry C. Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04315424229764736078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-637260836855119372012-09-24T05:34:40.469-07:002012-09-24T05:34:40.469-07:00David, with all respect: If I were a 300-year-old ...David, with all respect: If I were a 300-year-old monk, I would not be capering around in front of you. (And that's a plot that writes itself, too.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26023829616515718902012-09-24T03:44:20.200-07:002012-09-24T03:44:20.200-07:00http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/sep/23/huma...http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/sep/23/human-hunting-evolution-2million-years<br /><br />Relevant to the discussion.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-74447160484367752772012-09-23T22:07:31.872-07:002012-09-23T22:07:31.872-07:00Alas, you'd have to urge Bantam (Random House)...Alas, you'd have to urge Bantam (Random House) to do it in the US. Orbit is way ahead of the curve.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-32572455846819410092012-09-23T21:11:19.400-07:002012-09-23T21:11:19.400-07:00Mr. Brin could you happen to know exactly when the...Mr. Brin could you happen to know exactly when the omnibus version of the first three Uplift Novels will be released in the States?<br /><br />As far as I can tell its only available on pre-order in the UK as of now.Timnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49096747298221520922012-09-23T20:15:55.571-07:002012-09-23T20:15:55.571-07:00Sorry. Way too facile and blithe about the tempor...Sorry. Way too facile and blithe about the temporal coincidence. (1) if there were many other species that reached the ceiling earlier, then it only proves my point! That there is a real ceiling and we were a fluke that busted thru. (2) if the cluster we see is recent and ONLY recent then why?<br /><br />In fact there's not tons of time. In just 100 million years, about the time since the dinosaurs, the sun will be so hot that deserts will start to spread no matter what. If we blow it, there's only time for one reboot.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85349883142521618712012-09-23T19:47:39.801-07:002012-09-23T19:47:39.801-07:00But maybe your point is more to ask the question, ...But maybe your point is more to ask the question, what were the specific environmental pressures that selected for greater intelligence in the ancestors of homo sapiens? That's a fascinating question, and I know there are various theories about it, but we don't yet have enough information to say what the key factors were. Without that knowledge it's hard to say whether similar pressures might be at work on some of the other "sub-sapient" species we see around today.David Woolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13695441659840161874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12037541138196439992012-09-23T19:10:48.835-07:002012-09-23T19:10:48.835-07:00> DW you are the one posing a temporal coincide...> DW you are the one posing a temporal coincidence. Are you saying dozens are now clustered at sub-sapience... and there weren't such clusters in the past? <br /><br /><br />Yes, I'm posing a temporal coincidence (or happenstance, more accurately) but I'm not claiming such clusters never happened before. In fact, what I've been reading lately about human evolution seems to indicate that rather than a single linear progression from monkey-like creatures to humans, there were a number of independent branches that were heading in similar directions of more sophisticated intelligence but that homo sapiens is the only branch that survived. Apparently homo sapiens itself just barely survived, perhaps being down to a population of a few thousand at one point. <br /><br />I think this goes to my point that some descendants of today's apes might well evolve human-like intelligence given enough time -- if we humans were to just get out of their way -- and that the "glass ceiling" of intelligence you speak of may simply be an artifact of the particular moment in time from which we're observing things.David Woolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13695441659840161874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81031909299832648082012-09-23T16:40:18.355-07:002012-09-23T16:40:18.355-07:00What animals walk 1000 miles? Only a few, I think....What animals walk 1000 miles? Only a few, I think. I might think migration in itself could smarten up any species.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47376335784181822912012-09-23T15:58:41.517-07:002012-09-23T15:58:41.517-07:00@David Woolley: David talks about how multiple gen...@David Woolley: David talks about how multiple genetic bottlenecks may have helped humans evolve intelligence.<br /><br />Maybe we're already engaging in unplanned uplift by applying intense selective pressure on most of the highly intelligent animal species.<br /><br />A few more generations and chimps might start using bows and arrows to shoot back at poachers.Ian Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07666385933765478081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5270356284129959562012-09-23T15:42:27.711-07:002012-09-23T15:42:27.711-07:00I think we're all bozos on this bus.
http://ww...I think we're all bozos on this bus.<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmWFrMq3qNYJumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.com