tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post631490678382068078..comments2024-03-28T04:58:13.341-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: The Futility of HidingDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger126125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58730760353451133372016-06-04T11:15:17.833-07:002016-06-04T11:15:17.833-07:00onward
onwardonward<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12724866102515923812016-06-04T10:53:08.082-07:002016-06-04T10:53:08.082-07:00In the future all money will be cash in the form o...In the future all money will be cash in the form of credits in a chip embedded in one's body. Each credit will contain a piece of distributed programming that effectuates a surveillance system on the individual. The more money you have the more effective your surveillance is to the rest of the world. If you are poor the signal is so low it takes great effort to decrypt it and you have more privacy.<br /><br />Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75170934193164654392016-06-04T10:32:51.363-07:002016-06-04T10:32:51.363-07:00@Alfred - "[Dr. Brin is] pushing us to abando...@Alfred - <i>"[Dr. Brin is] pushing us to abandon a cowboy-style of individualism and privacy as being synonymous with courage and recognize that living in a world of cameras and microphones will require a different kind of courage. We already have egalitarianism built into our definition for Justice, so since Accountability rests on Courage and Justice, he is pointing at what has to change."</i><br /><br />Eloquently put, and enlightening to me, personally. Thanks for that, as it explains my own errors quite clearly.<br /><br />Once upon a time, I tried to adopt a cowboy style of individualism. An odd contrarian sort of cowboy, mind you - rushing off to bring lux et lex to the oppressed - in the form of IT that 'should' have brought transparency and the downfall of tyrants and oligarchs - an enterprise that 'succeeded' but proved utterly futile. Now, I strive to create new concepts that better fit with this world, rather than romanticized variations thereon. A difficult effort.donzelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05991849781932619746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21151593317944158932016-06-04T10:17:27.139-07:002016-06-04T10:17:27.139-07:00@Dr. Brin - "Embarrassment is a crude and ear...@Dr. Brin - <i>"Embarrassment is a crude and early response that more often gets in the WAY of learning from criticism."</i><br /><br />Indeed, and on an individual level, the pain of shame is probably not helpful. One does not learn well by donning a dunce cap, nor by having rules pounded into ones hands by a ruler (or rather, one learns what pain feels like, a lesson that does not in itself help reasoning).<br /><br />On a social level though, 'shame' ought to be a bit like chemotherapy disrupting a tumor - a painful (and destructive) tool of last resort to expel those who will spread error.<br /><br />Today's Republicans come in two sorts: the principled ones (who will NOT embrace bigotry, racism, & demagoguery) - and the unprincipled ones (they may actually believe that racism and bigotry are anathema, but those are low priorities compared with winning in November - and hence, their principles are either nonexistent or easily shrugged aside). They are too politically correct to ostracize and shame the Trumpmuffin, so they focus their fury at other political correctness (how dare they prevent Mr. X from having a stage at University Y - bunch of tyrants!). They will not learn, and hence, wouldn't the rational course be ostracizing them - or leaving and joining those who will?donzelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05991849781932619746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25512534667063356192016-06-04T08:33:25.967-07:002016-06-04T08:33:25.967-07:00Alfred, was the James Burke reference a suggestion...Alfred, was the James Burke reference a suggestion for a reroute? Would frozen yogurt suffice? I always felt ice cream was a little heavy on my stomach. Right now in the Game of Schools, everyone is saying "Summer is Coming" with bated breath. Paul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84828628549059497672016-06-04T08:27:22.001-07:002016-06-04T08:27:22.001-07:00Laurent, your comments about hard-wired instincts ...Laurent, your comments about hard-wired instincts are valuable, and this bit especially so (it's something anthropologists have been trying to get across for a long time.)<br /><br /> "it took agriculture, sedentarization, and the massive growth in human population we've known for the last few millennia: 4-5% of Homo-Sapiens time on Earth."<br /><br />The one thing you have to be careful of, though, is overgeneralization. Obviously you are way above loci's level, claiming that somehow ALL men are treated as if they were misogynists, ALL rural people seen to be rebels and ALL patriots as fascists (conflating patriotism with nationalism). Obviously men who rant misogynistic screed are misogynists, red staters who spout millenarian nonsense are rebels, and patriots who can't tell the difference between constructive criticism and blatant propaganda are fascists.<br /><br />The whole point of sexual reproduction is that it creates variability, so where you point out that humans have an inherent conflict aversion, this is a tendency, not a concrete rule. There are many who feel no such aversion, and have no problem slaughtering either peasants or rival claimants to the throne. The scum, as they say, rise to the top. There most certainly have been cases of elites being taken out by the masses, but more often than not fear keeps most down, while a few game the system to their advantage, ratting out those who would level the playing field by taking out the elites. Conflict aversion is what allows those who do not feel it to create deeply unjust and self-perpetuating social systems. Large sections of the human species have been bypassing that tendency through democratic government, but because that these instincts are both ancient and variable, you get a lot of the same phenomena in democracy, it just has to be expressed differently and justified with different propaganda memes. Thus our ever-changing definitions of justice.<br /><br />Instinct has power, but then there's the issues of memes and frontal lobes. Paul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39085549758679079382016-06-04T08:07:35.081-07:002016-06-04T08:07:35.081-07:00From what I've seen, "shame" (or its...From what I've seen, "shame" (or its denunciation) is a particular obsession with Locumranch's Incel/MGTOW cult. They believe that feminists use shaming to repress "natural" male behaviour, to feminise men, and hence take control. Thus Locumranch's projection of "shaming" onto David's sousveillance writing.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56369462189701233802016-06-04T08:00:41.839-07:002016-06-04T08:00:41.839-07:00I will try to be charitable here, and suggest that...I will try to be charitable here, and suggest that this comment:<br /><br />"I have learned that mere 'being' is shameful"<br /><br />is a consequence of growing up with middle American religion. It is "original sin" biting us in the butt and taking out a huge, soft, fleshy chunk that never grows back and bleeds intermittently. Bronze Age politics that has deeply scarred generations of psyches, whether they go to their graves "believers" or reject the logic in their adult lives. The memes burn deep into young neural circuitry. This isn't so much Planet Bizarro as some heat-shocked corner of Planet Faith.<br /><br />The idea that we should be ashamed for merely existing is ludicrous. No one controls the circumstance son their birth, what combinations of A, T, G & Cs end up in the zygote from whence they sprang. The shame is not in 'being' but in being an asshole. Assholism is replete with self delusion, one of the most pernicious of these delusions being genetic determinism. "I'm this way because I was born this way!" and "They are that way because they were born that way." It's an easy excuse for racism, sexism, classism, and an easy way to excuse any moral lapse, bypassing the shame that might otherwise motivate people too foolish to learn from other people's mistakes to then learn from their own. "So my dad was an alcoholic, Mr. Judge, Sir. That's why I get hammered every Friday night. I didn't mean to run over that old lady with the baby. I was just born that way." <br /><br />Jumper's cartoon reminds us, though, that self delusion loves company, and the internet provides a perfect forum for the pursuit of shared delusion.Paul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-35271865755410214622016-06-04T07:51:32.256-07:002016-06-04T07:51:32.256-07:00To draw you a map, locumranch, I will urge you to ...To draw you a map, locumranch, I will urge you to read the two articles I referenced. The Naomi Klein one goes into the ineffectiveness of "shaming" by the Left which should interest you, and both articles discuss how the commons tends to deprive people of the chances to progress via positive-sum strategies, as they find access to such strategies not on their plates. They argue that collective action is the only real reason for government, if complete feudalism enforced by the whip is rejected. Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83016060828779829572016-06-04T07:21:13.709-07:002016-06-04T07:21:13.709-07:00@Robert et al, some backing for my earlier asserti...@Robert et al, some backing for my earlier assertion that Hillary does better among people who actually vote:<br /><br />http://www.electoral-vote.com/<br /><br /><i><br />Polling of Tuesday's Democratic primary has been all over the map. Today we have a new poll that may explain some of the variance. Here are the results of the LA Times poll:<br />[ Hillary Clinton: 49% Bernie Sanders: 39% ]<br /><br />The poll results hold for <b>likely</b> voters. When unlikely voters are added to the mix, Sanders leads 44% to 43%. This curious result suggests that if everyone voted, Sanders would win, but many of his supporters are unlikely to vote, which could lead to a convincing win by Clinton.<br /></i>LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-17295938691121191192016-06-04T06:42:41.772-07:002016-06-04T06:42:41.772-07:00locumranch:
(3) That Shame, defined as "a pa...locumranch:<br /><i><br />(3) That Shame, defined as "a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of having done something improper, foolish, dishonourable (and) unworthy", is perhaps humanity's strongest motivator.<br /></i><br /><br />You're placing the cart before the horse. The point of CITOKATE is to have people pre-emtively <b>avoid</b> the need for shame by <br />1) being careful to avoid error in the first place<br />2) noting and correcting such errors that get by step 1, and<br />3) shame only as a last resort for the stubborn<br /><br />But then, CITOKATE is a methodology that presumes the person or entity receiving the (hopefully constructive) criticism <b>wants</b> to get things correct in the first place. If your point is that you're content with your errors, and you don't want any busybodies interfering with your right to your errors, then yes, I see your point.<br /><br /><i><br />I have learned that mere 'being' is shameful; I have sought acceptance through self-uplift, production, service & doing; I have achieved success as Western Culture defines success; and I have been thoroughly and consistently humbled by culture, upbringing, inclination, profession & gender.<br /></i><br /><br />You learned that the world only makes sense when you force it to.<br /><br /><i><br />I am Futurama's Günter made super intelligent by a shame-based Electronium Hat.<br /></i><br /><br />I wouldn't worry too much about <b>what</b> made you super intelligent.<br /><br />:)LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80445122996736847212016-06-04T06:28:41.612-07:002016-06-04T06:28:41.612-07:00Jumper:
http://induecourse.ca/wp-content/uploads...Jumper:<br /><br /><i> http://induecourse.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/piti.pdf </i><br /><br />I haven't read the whole article, but have skimmed enough to get the gist. Unfortunately, the dynamic described there explains a phenomenon we are seeing at this very time, that the news media sees Donald Trump as good for their business, even though an actual Trump presidency would be devastating to a free press. Metaphorically, they will eagerly sell Trump the rope he hangs them with.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27058535746380933722016-06-04T05:51:49.730-07:002016-06-04T05:51:49.730-07:00http://nonsite.org/editorial/the-climate-movement-...http://nonsite.org/editorial/the-climate-movement-needs-to-get-radical-but-what-does-that-mean<br />Here's a devastating critique of a Naomi Klein book by someone who agrees with her. What to do on global warming, amid failures of the Left.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83801893745483224412016-06-04T04:04:41.420-07:002016-06-04T04:04:41.420-07:00This, on the problem of the commons, is so rewardi...This, on the problem of the commons, is so rewarding. I'll repost the link, as my description of it before was terse. I'm impressed at its lucidity.<br />http://induecourse.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/piti.pdfJumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59672915115414144502016-06-04T03:06:39.957-07:002016-06-04T03:06:39.957-07:00http://induecourse.ca/the-tragically-overpriced/
A...http://induecourse.ca/the-tragically-overpriced/<br />A Dilbert cartoon reminds me of something.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49337545605152380712016-06-03T23:52:19.207-07:002016-06-03T23:52:19.207-07:00Did I say stubborn "doubling down"? Case...Did I say stubborn "doubling down"? Case in point: " I apologize for pointing out the unpleasantly obvious: <br />"<br /><br />Obvious... on Bizarro planet. His sadness is saddening. But pity does not alter the fact that his diagnosis is wrong. There is a gigantic perceptual blind spot. It causes anger. Which stands in the way of learning to cope with the blind spot and working around it.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84488644657464525352016-06-03T23:48:42.336-07:002016-06-03T23:48:42.336-07:00Sorry. CITOKATE is about penetrating humanity'...Sorry. CITOKATE is about penetrating humanity's greatest talent, self delusion. It is the only way that best-laid schemes get fixed, before wrecking everything. It is the way that the best theories are made better. It is the way we learn we have bad habits to break. It is the way that products improve and that civil servants learn they had better do their jobs.<br /><br />Embarrassment is a crude and early response that more often gets in the WAY of learning from criticism. We are seeing it today in embarrassed republicans fleeing from admitting that everything has gone wrong with their movement for at least 20 years. Sure, the embarrassed will sometimes correct the error that led to the embarrassment. More often they will rationalize, get angry and double down.<br /><br />It is those who learn the HABIT and the VALUE of criticism who benefit from it most.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48349666527608357612016-06-03T22:49:51.496-07:002016-06-03T22:49:51.496-07:00* "If we go by your description, the peasantr...<b>*</b> "<i>If we go by your description, the peasantry should have annihilated the aristocrats long ago. They didn’t because of customs regarding ‘what is due’ to those above us, below us, and to us</i>"<br /><br />Well, aristocrats <b>are</b> being periodically slaughtered. And more than custom, what protects them in-between uprisings is, first and foremost, Humanity's hardwired conflict aversion. Instinctively, we don't like to fight our own species: which is why the same pattern has happened throughout history: despots take over, people adjust themselves to the new bullies in charge, until their (or their heirs') incompetence and greed push their subjects on the verge of starvation, at which point anger at the abusers override conflict aversion and the fear of being on the receiving end of a sword, gun, missile... and uprisings begin anew.Laurent Weppenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46018405862347104942016-06-03T22:17:42.204-07:002016-06-03T22:17:42.204-07:00I apologise for Dabrowski’s Research with Gifted I...<br /><br />I apologise for Dabrowski’s Research with Gifted Individuals; I apologise for concluding that David's CITROCATE is a shame-based thesis; and I apologise for pointing out the unpleasantly obvious: <br /><br />(1) That Success, Accomplishment & Triumph are euphemisms for Shame Avoidance;<br />(2) That Accountability & Responsibility describe a state of Culpability & 'Shameworthiness'; and<br />(3) That Shame, defined as "a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of having done something improper, foolish, dishonourable (and) unworthy", is perhaps humanity's strongest motivator.<br /><br />https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creative-synthesis/201501/shame-and-motivation-change<br /><br />http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ750762.pdf<br /><br />I have learned that mere 'being' is shameful; I have sought acceptance through self-uplift, production, service & doing; I have achieved success as Western Culture defines success; and I have been thoroughly and consistently humbled by culture, upbringing, inclination, profession & gender.<br /><br />I am Futurama's Günter made super intelligent by a shame-based Electronium Hat.<br /><br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22775139477100284782016-06-03T19:48:55.349-07:002016-06-03T19:48:55.349-07:00CITOKATE starts with an embarrassment element. Per...CITOKATE starts with an embarrassment element. Persistent error should lead to shame. Avoidance of shame's consequences should lead to guilt. All that can be avoided easily, though, by embracing embarrassment.<br /><br />Lady Embarrassment is the second best teacher I ever had.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12510350668398882542016-06-03T19:43:21.142-07:002016-06-03T19:43:21.142-07:00@locumranch: The bourgeoisie assign dignity to a p...@locumranch: The bourgeoisie assign dignity to a person if they behave in a way the class finds to be reasonably virtuous. It doesn’t really matter which virtue as long as there is a bit of balance between them all. Too much of one or not enough of another looks like vice to us, so do that for a while and we expect you to feel shame and/or guilt.<br /><br />That not everyone agrees to the same definitions for virtues is a given. The domain for David’s accountability argument, though, is Enlightenment Culture which overlaps The West mostly. He’s pushing us to abandon a cowboy-style of individualism and privacy as being synonymous with courage and recognize that living in a world of cameras and microphones will require a different kind of courage. We already have egalitarianism built into our definition for Justice, so since Accountability rests on Courage and Justice, he is pointing at what has to change.<br /><br />I have no doubt the Honor types will object. Tough cookies. The rest of us don’t want to be oppressed and are being shown how to avoid that future.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47025653265716460562016-06-03T19:24:42.668-07:002016-06-03T19:24:42.668-07:00@Locum- "Transparency is the Best Option assu...@Locum- <i>"Transparency is the Best Option assuming a 'Belief in a Just World': Believing otherwise, I recommend 'taking the Fifth'." </i><br /><br />As a constitutional stickler, I have to point out that the portion of the 5th you're invoking can only protect you when you're accused of a crime. Obstinance, the only charge I know of that has been levied, is not (currently) a crime. ;-)<br /><br />Still - if one believes in an unjust world, pleading the Fifth is probably an unwise choice. When the game's fixed, one might be better off mocking the rules in order to distract the oppressors - and plot an escape from an unfair 'game.' Even then, CITOKATE serves a purpose - rather than correcting the 'error' (of the oppressors), it subverts the oppression itself. Potentially, quite useful, esp. if one has nothing else to work with. <br /><br />But mere disagreement is not oppression.<br /><br />@Larry - <i>"You learn more from failures than from successes.<br />Learning is good.<br />Therefore, one must strive to fail as often as possible."</i><br /><br />A fine illustration of a four-part syllogism by equivocation. Of course, if one strives to fail, then one will doubtless "succeed" at failure - and therefore fail to learn anything. (My favorite example of this type of fallacy: "Nothing is better than wisdom." "A warm beer is better than nothing." Therefore, "a warm beer is better than wisdom.") <br /><br />But is that really Locum's logic? CITOKATE, it seems to me, may (should?) include a 'shame' element, as Locum argues - if one persists in error after it is disclosed, then one who fights/flees/freezes/fawns to avoid a challenge should be "unveiled." Why isn't it appropriate to shame such?donzelionhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05991849781932619746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81991550332360820332016-06-03T19:17:16.725-07:002016-06-03T19:17:16.725-07:00@Paul SB: I’m over in Burbank often enough to matt...@Paul SB: I’m over in Burbank often enough to matter. The nearest IKEA is over there and I prefer to use that airport to LAX when I can. Also, I drive through your neck of the woods on my way to Vegas a couple times a year, so you are easily in range. 8)<br /><br />I don’t drink much. It’s just that when I do, I don’t drink slop. My fellow Americans are terribly crude when it comes to what we tolerate. Bizarre considering how many flavors of ice cream we demand on the menu.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-76005951990176679542016-06-03T19:07:28.388-07:002016-06-03T19:07:28.388-07:00@Laurent Weppe: Our current definition of Justice ...@Laurent Weppe: Our current definition of Justice isn’t that old. I’ll accept that part of it is, but not all of it. If we go by your description, the peasantry should have annihilated the aristocrats long ago. They didn’t because of customs regarding ‘what is due’ to those above us, below us, and to us. Our foraging ancestors had different customs that had to adapt to agriculture and horticulture. We changed them again in NW Europe somewhere around the 17th century. The British enviously copied the successes of the Dutch by internalizing a change to the meaning of Justice and then swapping out monarchs.<br /><br />You need a lot more than troops for an aristocracy to exist. You need compliance from those who out-number you. The threat of slaughter was only part of it. Those peasants largely believed in the system… until they didn’t. Those townspeople largely believed in the system… until some of them prospered by rejecting it successfully. Oops. Wildfire for those paying attention to Prudence.<br /><br />The point I’m making is that the very definition of our virtues changed. Once upon a time, the only aristocrat who was a cheater was one who didn’t conform to the traditional virtues. Courage in battle was required. Just behavior required them to expect their due from those of us below. Temperance required them to show mercy occasionally for those of us who didn’t. Faith required them to BE the aristocrats we expected them to be.<br /><br />David advocates Accountability in a way that suggests it as a virtue. Our feudal ancestors would have found that quite alien unless it conformed to their concept of Justice. Our Justice isn’t the same as we are much more egalitarian. The Levellers won a point with history.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-65429640260402198262016-06-03T18:58:07.199-07:002016-06-03T18:58:07.199-07:00http://induecourse.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/p...http://induecourse.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/piti.pdf<br />The stuff we talk about here.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.com