tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post5800777242979983108..comments2024-03-29T06:22:47.638-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Satire, dares and wagers -- in a war against factsDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11890825801776278352017-11-04T11:59:09.947-07:002017-11-04T11:59:09.947-07:00Oops, I just went over the onward...
onwardOops, I just went over the onward...<br /><br />onwardLarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-76314494294553099952017-11-04T11:58:30.735-07:002017-11-04T11:58:30.735-07:00Paul SB:
While I share Donzelion's general pr...Paul SB:<br /><i><br />While I share Donzelion's general principles, years of studying culture has made me pretty doubtful that there are any moral absolutes. <br /></i><br /><br />Again, there are two overlapping discussions here which might confuse the issue.<br /><br />You are talking about the same notion that was being discussed years ago on the old Cerebus list--the question of whether there are universal values which <b>all cultures</b> agree on. That's still a cultural relativist position--it presumes that cultures are the arbiters of what is good and what is evil--and only looks for "exceptions which prove the rule", something so far beyond the pale that no culture would ever disagree.<br /><br />I think what donzelion was arguing for (and locumranch arguing against) is a different thing, maybe or maybe not the opposite thing? That there are immutable laws of morality which have nothing to do with whether a culture or an individual believes or accepts them. Just as you are subject to the law of gravity whether you believe in it or not, so donzelion would have it that "slavery is always wrong" is a fact whether you believe it or not.<br /><br />And this is where the discussion gets difficult to understand. I personally feel that slavery <b>is</b> wrong, but I don't believe that (or any other value judgement) exists outside of the sentient individual's conscience.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23543920180551682342017-11-04T11:34:23.215-07:002017-11-04T11:34:23.215-07:00TCB is right of course, and I can no longer ration...TCB is right of course, and I can no longer rationalize that I am “ministering to” Locumranch, since his problems are not political or logical or even moral, but deeply psychological. Still, in my defense, let me say that the Fox-isms that he posts here are incantations that have great power in sick minds. And that sickness infests the confederacy that is trying to pull down the Union they always hated.<br /><br />I am most trying to concoct counter-polemics, and some of them I think are pretty good. Elsewhere I have had great success cornering Fox-ists with some of those “name one exception” challenges that were developed down here.<br /><br />Still, yes, I will try to not let him set me off, if for no other reason that preserving my lifespan for more important fights.<br /><br />His most recent is a good example. Pure drivel, with slices of “deep state” rationalizations for hating the last fact-professions who stand in the way of his “yes-massa” plantation lords raking it all in. Hating on the FBI, the military officer corps, intel agencies… gooood doggie.<br /><br />But onward<br /><br />onward<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56447889715380080372017-11-04T11:25:50.463-07:002017-11-04T11:25:50.463-07:00"While you do have a point, it presumes that ...<i>"While you do have a point, it presumes that attention is always a good thing. Or 'Sometimes, you can get what you want and still not be very happy.'"</i><br /><br />"In the end, you may find that 'having' is not so pleasing a thing as 'wanting'. It is not logical - but it is often true."<br /><br />- Spock to T'Pring, in the <i>Star Trek</i> Original Series episode "Amok Time" (written by Theodore Sturgeon!)Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25838879667671573502017-11-04T11:15:51.325-07:002017-11-04T11:15:51.325-07:00...and to remind people what the comment about pri......and to remind people what the comment about prison populations was all about. I was not <b>advocating</b> the conservative position that the prison population is largely black because they're the ones committing the crimes. I was saying that <b>if</b> one can hold that position and sleep well at night, then that same person is a hypocrite if he doesn't also accept that right-wing political organizations are caught pretending not to be political because right-wing political organizations are the ones who commit all of those crimes.<br /><br />If you (loc) are going to sneer at me that I can't have it both ways, you're going to have to wait until I get a win on even <b>one</b> of those ways first.<br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-91032548108723119802017-11-04T11:10:28.831-07:002017-11-04T11:10:28.831-07:00Paul SB:
to say nothing of locum's dogmatic a...Paul SB:<br /><i><br />to say nothing of locum's dogmatic assertions, which confuse people because he is really saying two different things.<br /></i><br /><br />Worse, he says things that are different, in fact opposite, from reality.<br /><br />Which is why, despite your pleading, I can't let a comment stand which asserts that I was arguing the pro-"there are moral absolutes" position and then draws conclusions from that "fact", where I was actually taking issue with that position in the first place. I'm not arguing politics with the guy--I'm pointing out when he slanders me.<br /><br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20252143183564832642017-11-04T11:05:14.654-07:002017-11-04T11:05:14.654-07:00with apologies to PaulSB, locumranch:
"Good ...with apologies to PaulSB, locumranch:<br /><i><br />"Good Boy, TCBy, now hustle those hate-speaking, Trump voting, non-conformists into the ovens because Freedom, Democracy & Deep State".<br /></i><br /><br />Nazis get to play the "ovens" victim card now?<br /><br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80730238636162653062017-11-04T11:01:15.179-07:002017-11-04T11:01:15.179-07:00locumranch can't read:
(1) Either moral absol...locumranch can't read:<br /><i><br />(1) Either moral absolutes exist or they do not exist; and<br />(2) Either morality is relative or it is not relative.<br /></i><br /><br />Well, duh so far.<br /><br /><i><br />Nor all of Larry_H & TCBy's frozen yogurt, moral piety & wit can ever cancel even a single word of it, argue though they may about the primacy of 'Free Speech in a Free Society' and how 'Slavery is always wrong', while their same words are used to justify the ongoing slavery of the California Penal System & the elimination of 'Free (hate) speech in a (now un) Free Society. <br /></i><br /><br />I was arguing the opposite position on that one--that most cultures in history have been ok with slavery. So your conclusion is wrong then, correct? I didn't think so.<br /><br /><i><br />Now, go ask Larry_H if populations that commit crimes at higher rates **should** be imprisoned at higher rates & watch him find *exceptions* like his fellow moral relativist Mr. Burns.<br /></i><br /><br />Why not ask me if populations who lie at higher rates **should** be disbelieved or ignored at higher rates. No exceptions necessary.<br /><br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64735974369127739832017-11-04T09:39:49.440-07:002017-11-04T09:39:49.440-07:00Paul 451 con't,
Racism is one of the more obv...Paul 451 con't,<br /><br />Racism is one of the more obvious examples. It's really obvious that there is just one human race, but greedy plantation owners concocted the idea of different "races" to justify their business interests. The idea was so useful for so many people that in most people's eyes it became an unquestionable truth over the course of a couple generations. Sexism is far older and much harder to root out, but it's the same thing. If you want something from someone who is any different from you, paint them out to be less than human so the normal rules of human decency don't apply to them. Then you can be inhuman to them while still being able to sleep at night and maintain your good reputation in the community. Convenient. And it happens everywhere, too. Any side you care to name is guilty of it, though some groups tend to rely on it much more regularly and with much more enthusiasm than others. Some extremists on the left use this ancient strategy, demonizing their conservative opponents, but this practice is frowned upon by a majority of people who have heard of WW II and the Holocaust. To the right wing, on the other hand, this is their most fundamental, indispensable practice.Paul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15672954293931939192017-11-04T09:39:09.063-07:002017-11-04T09:39:09.063-07:00Paul 451,
"From what I've seen, when rel...Paul 451,<br /><br />"From what I've seen, when religion is at its strongest, it seems to exist to justify telling people to do what they know is wrong, by twisting those innate ideas of fairness/loyalty/community/family/etc into justifying acts that defy those same ideas."<br />- Your understanding of religion is very anthropological, which is to say, far more mature than the majority of people who either blindly follow or blindly reject.<br /><br />Everything you wrote about religion applies equally to ideology, philosophy or any of the kinds of absurdities humans use to justify atrocities, to render Voltaire. Humans are very good at coming up with justifications to do things that they know are wrong and are in many ways counter-instinctual. There have been a fair number of studies pointing to how difficult it can be to get soldiers to actually kill humans on the other team, and how few soldiers in major wars ever actually fire their rifles at the enemy. Religion teaches people to think that certain people - people who are different from them - are not really human, so it's okay to shoot them. How different is this from capitalism, with its Social Darwinist philosophy, that teaches us to believe that anyone who isn't rich is a "loser" - our equivalent of less than human - and it's okay to cheat, swindle, financially destroy them, take away their health insurance, lay them off en masse, treat them like slaves when they have few, if any, alternatives for employment to escape abusive managers, and blame them for their own misfortunes.<br /><br />This eats into the discussion Donzelion and Larry were having about moral absolutes, to say nothing of locum's dogmatic assertions, which confuse people because he is really saying two different things. What he is saying is that when anyone has different values from his, values are relative, subjective and merely the "should-ofs" that the right wing so often accuses the left wing of, claiming that they are these unrealistic pie-in-the-sky idealists. Yet they then turn around and insist that whatever they value is absolute and anyone who disagrees with them is unquestionably evil. The hypocrisy isn't too hard to parse, but like a TV pastor he spews out so much verbiage it becomes very hard to follow. While I share Donzelion's general principles, years of studying culture has made me pretty doubtful that there are any moral absolutes. TCB brought up Franz deWaal's work on morality in the rest of the animal kingdom, which show that there is a solid, scientific basis to the idea that some instinctive foundation to human moral systems. But nothing that is biological is not variable to some degree. There are plenty of warrior societies where a killer is considered admirable, not despicable, and human cultures all over the world get around prohibitions on murder, slavery, oppression, spousal and child abuse and all manner of atrocities simply be redefining who counts as human. Paul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90394554271276698922017-11-04T09:27:14.098-07:002017-11-04T09:27:14.098-07:00As to the sad state of US Mental Health, both poli...<br />As to the sad state of US Mental Health, both political parties share equal responsibility. The 'Mental Health Parity Bill', passed under Bill Clinton in 1996 & garnering widespread BIPARTISAN support, legislated EQUAL insurance reimbursement for both physical & mental health issues, <b>to be phased in at a rate of 2% per year, achieving full 100% parity by 2046.</b> That's parity by 2046, folks. And, I (for one) don't feel proud to belong to such a dishonest & responsibility-shirking society.<br /><br />In terms of morality, I argue by tautology which means that my arguments (in this limited regard) are logically unassailable, being "always true", "true by logical necessity", "whether (or not) the simpler statements are factually true or false":<br /><br />(1) Either moral absolutes exist or they do not exist; and<br />(2) Either morality is relative or it is not relative.<br /><br />Nor all of Larry_H & TCBy's frozen yogurt, moral piety & wit can ever cancel even a single word of it, argue though they may about the primacy of 'Free Speech in a Free Society' and how 'Slavery is always wrong', while their same words are used to justify the ongoing slavery of the California Penal System & the elimination of 'Free (hate) speech in a (now un) Free Society. Now, go ask Larry_H if populations that commit crimes at higher rates **should** be imprisoned at higher rates & watch him find *exceptions* like his fellow moral relativist Mr. Burns.<br /><br />Catfish steps up to defend the Deep State -- those self-sustaining autonomous bureaucracies that (once created) are UNRESPONSIVE to the democratic 'Will of the People' -- in the name of Freedom & Democracy. It is to laugh. Ask those Kurds, Catalonians & denizens of the California Penal System what 'Freedom & Democracy' feels like now that they have been criminalised & imprisoned by those same tyrannical self-sustaining autonomous bureaucracies. <br /><br />And, poor TCBy, who confuses conformity & agreeableness with the "vaguely sensible" -- he deserves the same unconditional support that we would offer any other vaguely sensible 'Good German' conformist:<br /><br />"Good Boy, TCBy, now hustle those hate-speaking, Trump voting, non-conformists into the ovens because Freedom, Democracy & Deep State".<br /><br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-51735578627066451712017-11-04T09:09:51.534-07:002017-11-04T09:09:51.534-07:00TCB,
I've had this discussion with Larry befo...TCB,<br /><br />I've had this discussion with Larry before. Sometimes I am inclined to say that we shouldn't feed the trolls - let them wither in obscurity. Like all bullies they love confrontation, they love making people furious, and the more strenuously normal people fight against them the more dopamine - and petulant - they get. Larry does have a point that we need to argue against bastards like this or else others might interpret silence as consent, and Dr. Brin's point about honing our arguments on the whetstone of petulance is also a good point. However, he is doing the same thing. Contrary Brin is where he goes to throw out all the bullshit arguments for ignorance and hate he gets from Faux News, nazi talk radio and his religious upbringing to see if anything sticks. Nothing ever does. All he ever gets is admissions that once in awhile things he spews have some basis in reality, though half-truths and distortions taken out of context have yet to persuade anyone here that any of his crap is anything but witless, vile calumny. And a whole lot of deliberate dishonesty - I have pointed out here more than once that his rhetorical style is very much in keeping with the standard operating procedures of the churchnazis I grew up with in the Plains States. Scruples are not an issue for them, only winning the argument matters, so they will say literally anything they think will persuade other people to their way of thinking. It's a strategy that works if you are on a church speaking circuit going from town to town guest guilt-tripping, because you won't be in the same place long enough to get caught and lose all credibility. If locum was as smart as he thought he was, he would stop coming here and move on to somewhere else, because he has no credibility here whatsoever. But he's addicted to the dopamine rush righteous indignation. Getting his fix seems to be more important to him than actually getting anywhere.<br /><br />So once again, we return to the silent treatment. If we just ignore him, he will start to experience withdrawals. That will make him even more extreme for awhile until he finally cracks. The problem is that many of the decent human beings here have their own issues with indignation addiction. Many of us get our own fix from fighting him. If only t'weren't true!Paul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78133002486280659612017-11-04T08:12:36.321-07:002017-11-04T08:12:36.321-07:00David Brin said,
After multiple investigations, in...David Brin said,<br /><i>After multiple investigations, inspectors found as many liberal-leaning groups were targeted for IRS attention as conservative ones.</i><br /><br />Last year I posted in Facebook about the scarcity of scandals during the Obama administration. A friend pointed to the scandal of the IRS targeting conservative organizations, and gave a link to Judicial Watch (https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-fbi-investigation-documents-irs-scandal/), which linked to 294 pages of investigation documents. I read only the first 30 pages, but they made clear what had happened. It was not targeting: it was a bureaucratic snafu. The Tea Party organizations did not receive more IRS scrutiny; instead, they received less scrutiny in a situation where less scrutiny was worse.<br /><br />An IRS office in Cincinnati, Ohio, handled requests for tax exemptions from political organizations. They had several categories of activities that permitted an exemption, such as holding rallies or supporting a candidate. They were supposed to sort the requests by activity. Instead, they sorted them by name. Thus, anything with "Freedom" ended up in the one pile, "Women's Rights" in another pile, etc. The biggest pile was "Tea Party." This was a bad system, because if a reviewer picked up a rally exemption request after a string of a candidate exemption requests, then he might mistake it for a poorly supported candidate request and reject it unfairly. Hence, the system was violation of IRS regulations and caused an internal clamor when discovered. But it was not targeting any organization's tax records for political leverage.Erin Schramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12376510919659209734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45467564869568783392017-11-04T07:55:04.209-07:002017-11-04T07:55:04.209-07:00@TCB,
While you do have a point, it presumes that...@TCB,<br /><br />While you do have a point, it presumes that attention is always a good thing. Or "Sometimes, you can get what you want and still not be very happy."<br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49081286517860303382017-11-04T07:04:15.677-07:002017-11-04T07:04:15.677-07:00Can I just take this moment to bitch about somethi...Can I just take this moment to bitch about something that really irks me? And understand that this phenomenon is not limited to this website, no, no, it seems very widespread in the environment, online, at my job, and so on.<br /><br />I simply cannot abide the fact that people like locum get ten times as much attention for saying stupid shit as I generally do when I say something vaguely sensible.<br /><br />#fuckedupsocialincentivesystemTCBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153506222271955110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-29036615729425634192017-11-03T21:11:49.143-07:002017-11-03T21:11:49.143-07:00No problems so far, though I do seem to be getting...No problems so far, though I do seem to be getting followed around by ads for a boxed set of Shakespeare plays from our local ABC shop. ;) However, that's nothing to do with your site, I seem to get it on every site that allows ads, personalised stuff. Do you do Adsense? I've never allowed it on my blogspot blog, though it would make me a few dollars. <br />Sue Bursztynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09362273418897882971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19627717202826027442017-11-03T19:33:58.529-07:002017-11-03T19:33:58.529-07:00Yah. I wonder if anyone thought "Gee. That ca...Yah. I wonder if anyone thought "Gee. That came kinda close. Maybe someone is looking at us?" without realizing the very strong selection effect in play here.<br /><br />Heh. It's only been crashing through our system for a very long time, though. 8)<br /><br />I've been long-time curious what the density is for this kind of interstellar hail. I would think it matters for anyone thinking of interstellar voyages at any sizeable fraction of the speed of light. Dust shielding might have issues with this rock.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90189717155124578822017-11-03T19:26:38.577-07:002017-11-03T19:26:38.577-07:00What would be really fun with A/2017 U1 is if an e... What would be really fun with A/2017 U1 is if an energy event occurred along it's trajectory as it approached our system... But it was probably only a rock.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80232757487126193982017-11-03T12:13:13.156-07:002017-11-03T12:13:13.156-07:00oh man. I take a few days off from thinking (poli...oh man. I take a few days off from thinking (politics avoidance) and some interstellar rock comes crashing through the solar system.<br /><br /><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A/2017_U1" rel="nofollow">A/2017 U1</a><br /><br />Heh. Been waiting a lifetime for that announcement. Along with gravitational wave detection and links to E&M observations, 2017 has been an interesting year so far.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18680441590812789162017-11-03T11:02:11.018-07:002017-11-03T11:02:11.018-07:00@Dr.Brin,
What do you think about this acticle? W...@Dr.Brin,<br /><br />What do you think about this acticle? <a href="https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/11/why-democratic-leaders-dont-want-to-talk-about-impeachment.html%C2%A8" rel="nofollow">Why Democratic leaders don't want to talk about impeachment.</a><br /><br />IIRC, you were rather afraid that Democratic politicians would jump at any chance to impeach Trump, defeating themselves politically in the process. If this article gives the picture correctly, they're more savvy than you gave them credit for.<br /><br />Twomindsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-16274968383000071752017-11-03T10:29:30.627-07:002017-11-03T10:29:30.627-07:00Adblocker + NoScript = No Problems.Adblocker + NoScript = No Problems.Mark Gasthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16339220585360584102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56614690848466741152017-11-03T10:29:20.362-07:002017-11-03T10:29:20.362-07:00No weirdness, but like TCB I run fairly locked dow...No weirdness, but like TCB I run fairly locked down, so I'm not a typical user.<br /><br />--<br /><br />Minor note from the last thread:<br /><br />TCB,<br />Re: Religion as a moral absolute.<br /><i>"But Man, that naked monkey who found ways to cooperate and survive even in outer space, only that creature thinks he needs gods to tell him what the chimps and wolves and even he himself knows already."</i><br /><br />From what I've seen, when religion is at its strongest, it seems to exist to justify telling people to do what they know is <i>wrong</i>, by twisting those innate ideas of fairness/loyalty/community/family/etc into justifying acts that defy those same ideas.<br /><br />Over time, the average people in a community, collectively, gradually push their religion back to a workable moderation, the religion is co-opted by those more innate values. But as a tool, religion is used by a socially abnormal minority to justify their own extremes.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40200943479147413662017-11-03T09:56:35.101-07:002017-11-03T09:56:35.101-07:00I have no problems on this site. Be it known, howe...I have no problems on this site. Be it known, however, that I use an uncommon Linux distro and I have Adblocker on my Chrome. Also I have Flash disabled. So my configuration is probably somewhat secure by way of not being what most people would use, and therefore perhaps not as much malware gets written for it.TCBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08153506222271955110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39589434204106289962017-11-03T09:33:26.128-07:002017-11-03T09:33:26.128-07:00No problems for me on either the laptop via Chrome...No problems for me on either the laptop via Chrome or the iPhone 7 via Safari.<br /><br />Fingers crossed it stays that way ! ;)Smurphsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-63696274490872568512017-11-03T09:00:17.984-07:002017-11-03T09:00:17.984-07:00I've had malware problems in the past, but not...I've had malware problems in the past, but nothing at the moment. And I'm "here" quite a bit. :)<br /><br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.com