tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post5438357080699522968..comments2024-03-29T06:22:47.638-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: The Spirit of Exploration: Comets, Pluto, Titan and MarsDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46603637736906436142014-10-12T05:22:20.328-07:002014-10-12T05:22:20.328-07:00@Jonathan S
As I recall, the problems with Venus ...@Jonathan S<br /><br /><i>As I recall, the problems with Venus include not only atmospheric carbon, but also high levels of sulfur</i><br /><br />Gypsum. <br /><br />So you precipitate out both CaCO3 and CaSO4Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43166885033427332052014-10-11T14:26:00.271-07:002014-10-11T14:26:00.271-07:00As I recall, the problems with Venus include not o...As I recall, the problems with Venus include not only atmospheric carbon, but also high levels of sulfur. Somehow I doubt that merely scooping CO2 from the edge of the Venusian atmosphere is going to significantly terraform it...Jonathan S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75181099836608426032014-10-11T09:39:51.500-07:002014-10-11T09:39:51.500-07:00In KSR's "2312", Venus was terraform...In KSR's "2312", Venus was terraformed by precipitating out the CO2 into carbonate rock. I'm not sure what the details are, but it seems like a planetary wide, industrial scale version of what happened during the early Earth.<br /><br />For Mars the proposals are usually add a CFC to trap heat, and then use the warming subsurface ice to generate the O2. The hardest part is getting nitrogen, not just for the air, but for life processes. Suggestions have been made that Titan's atmosphere is the best option for that,Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12847915760002917292014-10-11T07:37:29.136-07:002014-10-11T07:37:29.136-07:00Into the circular file, then. I await Ceres.Into the circular file, then. I await Ceres.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43400708407650307962014-10-11T06:56:07.434-07:002014-10-11T06:56:07.434-07:00Jumper,
Re: Sky-Mining Venus.
I've seen desig...Jumper,<br />Re: Sky-Mining Venus.<br /><br />I've seen designs for air-scooping orbiters. It is theoretically possible to balance the drag and thrust to remain in orbit while "tanking up". But they usually rely on the captured gas to include oxygen.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23420100859084964632014-10-10T21:49:57.892-07:002014-10-10T21:49:57.892-07:00Okay. Here is the primary thing wrong with creatin...Okay. Here is the primary thing wrong with creating dry ice and launching it at Mars: you are creating cometary bodies that will start emitting carbon dioxide the moment it's in a vacuum. The amount of material that would reach Mars... well, you'd need to make a larger dry ice "comet" in order for sublimation not to cause the dry ice to just completely evaporate in the vacuum of space. <br /><br />Not to mention that the material evaporating from the "cometary body" would provide chaotic propulsion. In all likelihood it wouldn't hit Mars.<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14832502286400492092014-10-10T19:46:18.488-07:002014-10-10T19:46:18.488-07:00"cheaper and easier," Robert? Citation n..."cheaper and easier," Robert? Citation needed! LOL<br /><br />I didn't say it would be fast, but it would have the effect of terraforming two planets at once. And I was more interested in its possibility, not practicality, although obviously a system massing less than a hundred tons - the solar cells and plasma rockets and gas plant - is what I wondered about. A lot of power needed just to overcome drag.<br /><br />As for mirrors, Venus needs a Venus-size parasol and Mars needs a very large mirror - Mars size or larger - and keeping them oriented as they orbit is difficult at best.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-7711746501060971712014-10-10T15:33:29.265-07:002014-10-10T15:33:29.265-07:00It would be cheaper and easier to mine an asteroid...It would be cheaper and easier to mine an asteroid for its carbon and send it to Mars. You're not fighting a gravity well or an average distance of 0.8 AU. (Earlier today I was trying to explain to another friend over Facebook why using solar mirrors in Venus to transmit light to Mars just was not tenable. I tried explaining about how much a laser diffuses focus when shining from the Earth to the Moon. I don't think he quite comprehended the distances and loss of energy.)<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-50067380252265932632014-10-10T15:03:29.464-07:002014-10-10T15:03:29.464-07:00Is it possible to maintain an orbit low enough to ...Is it possible to maintain an orbit low enough to Venus to collect - to "scoop" - CO2 and package it to dry ice and launch pellets of it to intersect Mars? Power supply solar.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-37308083087820845632014-10-10T12:06:46.204-07:002014-10-10T12:06:46.204-07:00@Robert - I read that article too. My thought is ...@Robert - I read that article too. My thought is that while framing is important, it only works when the appeal is not drowned out by massive propa...err, advertizing. This is the whole point about repeating a message (or lie) until it becomes perceived truth. And your opponent can frame the question too, so it is an arms race. And battles are usually won on strength.Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25700131882887887132014-10-10T11:35:52.395-07:002014-10-10T11:35:52.395-07:00Oh, locum
The healthcare system is not in decline...Oh, locum<br /><br />The healthcare system is not in decline, it is expanding apace. The issue is that the resources we pour into it are not wisely utilized and that every penny of it is a "societal cost", ie something else we cannot do.<br /><br />As it happens I am also not on production and most days not disillusioned. <br /><br />Rationing is of course inevitable in some form. <br /><br />But this is a thread about exploring strange worlds with toxic atmospheres. A discussion of health care politics is, well just that but lets postpone it until it is more the primary focus.<br /><br />TacitusTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55796980577411549162014-10-10T10:36:28.029-07:002014-10-10T10:36:28.029-07:00And now to mix science and politics!
http://nymag...And now to mix science and politics!<br /><br /><a href="http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/09/how-to-convince-conservatives-on-climate-change.html" rel="nofollow">http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/09/how-to-convince-conservatives-on-climate-change.html</a><br /><br />Basically it's how you frame the message. We should be talking about how we need to preserve industry and our great country by preventing climate change. Or along those lines.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11915739445653667342014-10-10T10:30:21.054-07:002014-10-10T10:30:21.054-07:00Poor Tacitus.
Disillusioned by the ACA, mostly be...<br />Poor Tacitus.<br /><br />Disillusioned by the ACA, mostly because he still believes in a healthcare system in decline, along with the typical false promises about a productivity-based quick fix, improved provider compensation and a ration-free future where 16 ounces of coffee are repackaged in 12 oz bags.<br /><br />I'd buy THAT for a quarter. Hahaha.<br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-13162014528254512772014-10-10T07:59:01.474-07:002014-10-10T07:59:01.474-07:00A rather partisan bit about the Arkansas voting is...A rather partisan bit about the Arkansas voting issue, but the facts seem legit. Nonsense from either party deserves to be sought out and dealt with. Kudos for this coming to light in a "red" state. My feeling is that the quest for voter integrity is a little less stringent in some "blue" enclaves.<br /><br />But whatever. The US Supremes have put enforcement of the WI voter ID law on hold as of yesterday. That's OK. There were some access issues that had only been partly addressed. They will be tuned up and the law most likely reinstated after a bit.<br /><br />And both sides will use it to drum up their Faithful. And as one who always consideres higher turnout better, that is a good thing.<br /><br />Of course if one of the relatively few races in WI that is close and consequential goes down to a recount there will be many unhappy noises..<br /><br />When the topic actually rolls round to politics again I have a few thoughts on my recent adventures with the Affordable Care Act...<br /><br />Tacitusnext door Laurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06146289021181568035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60774602937257600972014-10-10T06:38:57.210-07:002014-10-10T06:38:57.210-07:00Veering off topic, but this is sometimes discussed...Veering off topic, but this is sometimes discussed here: a voter fraud story. <br />http://www.politicususa.com/2014/10/07/voter-fraud... <br />One irony not highlighted is that ID laws probably wouldn't have helped stop it; it was another aspect that did.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84611310205673043932014-10-09T18:37:47.229-07:002014-10-09T18:37:47.229-07:00I remain in the "we are chauvinistic about &#...I remain in the "we are chauvinistic about 'intelligence' and profound surprises await" school.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30190352111044736222014-10-09T12:00:07.257-07:002014-10-09T12:00:07.257-07:00Paul451,
"I think you'd need to see wha...Paul451, <br /><br />"I think you'd need to see what the ethane seas are like from the surface before you consider diving. Visibility could be zero due to organic sludge. So the added difficulty of dealing with the extremely high heat-loss (higher density of the liquid over air), crush-pressures and communication issues, for what may be zero additional science over a simpler floating sensor boat."<br /><br />Good thinking here. Given that I used to scuba, I should have thought of the visibility issue. A floater that could lower relatively inexpensive instruments into the liquid hydrocarbons would make for a good recon vehicle.<br /><br />Tony Fisk, thanks for the link! I'm cooking up ideas for my earth science class...Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1274659078681955022014-10-09T11:09:44.124-07:002014-10-09T11:09:44.124-07:00@Daniel Duffy - You're talking about J P Aeros...@Daniel Duffy - You're talking about J P Aerospace's "Floating to Orbit"? It seems like such an interesting idea, but I think the L/D ratio is too low for even a rocket to push the airship to orbit. A better approach might be just to use their high altitude platform to launch more conventional vehicles, like the beam powered Skylon DB linked to. For reentry, an airship might be a good way to go (their book suggests the that inflatable Rogallo wings that were tested in the past is a proof of concept).Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43040286545379071612014-10-09T09:23:34.141-07:002014-10-09T09:23:34.141-07:00Paul, we had no info about the comet’s surface til...Paul, we had no info about the comet’s surface till Rosetta arrived.<br /><br />Locum said: “It seems a little premature to celebrate NASA's adoption of the private contractor model as it was this same profit-driven model that gave us (and keeps on giving us) the $400 toilet seat & the $100 million fighter jet.”<br /><br />Actually, it is the diametric opposite. Those were sole-source contracts.<br /><br />“Remember that most of our celebrated extraplanetary success stories (the ISS, the Rosetta, the Philae lander, the Mangalyaan & the New Horizon) are the product of the old governmental non-competitive model”<br /><br />Good point. Sole source can work well… when the contractor is highly motivated. What you ignore is that ALL approaches are flawed. We are feeling our way forward, trying pragmatic approaches. Your dismissal of all competition is just as wrong as those fools who say “government can never do anything right.”<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75150825459167200482014-10-09T08:39:47.110-07:002014-10-09T08:39:47.110-07:00Dr Brin in the main post:
Um… didn’t I already do...Dr Brin in the main post:<br /><i><br />Um… didn’t I already do exactly this, in a novel? “NASA Announces Plans To Launch Chimpanzee Into Sun.” -- from The Onion!<br /></i><br /><br />That article sounds as if it was directly inspired <b>by</b> "Sundiver". Or at least that it is a shout out to you.<br /><br />They left out a gag about landing on the sun at night so it's not quite so hot. :)LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-92229401270607945552014-10-09T08:09:18.040-07:002014-10-09T08:09:18.040-07:00It seems a little premature to celebrate NASA'...<br />It seems a little premature to celebrate NASA's adoption of the private contractor model as it was this same profit-driven model that gave us (and keeps on giving us) the $400 toilet seat & the $100 million fighter jet.<br /><br />Remember that most of our celebrated extraplanetary success stories (the ISS, the Rosetta, the Philae lander, the Mangalyaan & the New Horizon) are the product of the old governmental non-competitive model, that over 90% of technological startup companies (like Space_X) fail within 2 years of launch, that Space_X's projected costs may have little or nothing to do with actual 'fait accompli' costs, and that most successful private contractors (like Boeing) tend to low-ball cost projections to 'win' contracts only to extort more funds once the project is underway. <br /><br />Many of you (I'm sure) share my own less than complimentary experiences with private contractors who appear scrupulously honest & capable at the onset, only to extort, inconvenience, lie, falsify & delay in a purely legal, non-actionable & socially acceptable fashion. <br /><br />But, then again, this is merely the price we pay for living in a technical, modern & highly-competitive Rape Economy such as ours where we know that the future of humanity & the sanctity of our posteriors depend on the good-will of the profit-driven.<br /><br />Ad Astra.locumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48557150088145197202014-10-09T06:47:42.126-07:002014-10-09T06:47:42.126-07:00Concerning airships and beamed energy...
I have b...Concerning airships and beamed energy...<br /><br />I have been fascinated by the concept of airship to orbit (ASTO) where a derigible in the upper atmosphere equipped with an ion engine can eventually achieve orgital velocity.<br /><br />Alas, the drag to weight ratio of such a craft makes it almost impossble to work in practice.<br /><br />But suppose we ditch the heavy ion engine and push the derigible to speed with beamed microwave energy from ground sations.<br /><br />I such an approach feasible?DPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07087941506162882852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-65051183449898406492014-10-09T06:03:07.019-07:002014-10-09T06:03:07.019-07:003d Printed Gun! makes paper planes
http://3dprint...3d Printed Gun! makes paper planes<br /><br /><a href="http://3dprint.com/18406/3d-printed-gun-paper-airplane/" rel="nofollow">http://3dprint.com/18406/3d-printed-gun-paper-airplane/</a><br /><br />"It's... so beautiful..."Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81143855397236438842014-10-09T05:47:57.055-07:002014-10-09T05:47:57.055-07:00"while anchored to the comet by a harpoon.&qu...<i>"while anchored to the comet by a harpoon."</i><br /><br />Science, bitches!<br /><br />Paul Shen-Brown,<br /><i>"ESA made the choice of landing site based on telemetry from Rosetta rather than planning the landing site before launch. [...] but probably more wise to save a decision like that for better quality data."</i><br /><br />They still picked probably the most conservative (least interesting) site.<br /><br />Re: Release the Kraken-sub!<br /><br />I think you'd need to see what the ethane seas are like from the surface before you consider diving. Visibility could be zero due to organic sludge. So the added difficulty of dealing with the extremely high heat-loss (higher density of the liquid over air), crush-pressures and communication issues, for what may be zero additional science over a simpler floating sensor boat.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-13264223349419766112014-10-09T05:39:57.160-07:002014-10-09T05:39:57.160-07:00Normally, I'd drop this at the end of the last...Normally, I'd drop this at the end of the last thread, but it doesn't seem so off-topic here.<br /><br />Randy Winn,<br />Re: Life begins at...<br /><i>"Technically, life began several hundred million years ago..."</i><br /><br />Best evidence is 3,800 million year ago. So at least 12 "several hundred million". (First direct evidence is 3.48 billion-year-old microbial mat fossils, indirect signs go back another 300m years. But it's in some of the oldest preserved rocks, so IMO it's likely that life pre-dated the late-heavy-bombardment.)Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.com