tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post4523328494328176930..comments2024-03-28T14:07:18.682-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Science Fictional NewsDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26787078224438356702020-05-25T19:47:05.275-07:002020-05-25T19:47:05.275-07:00With all due respect, Doctor, we can't move &q...With all due respect, Doctor, we can't move "onward" until there's an onward to move to. :)<br />Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-37063009858379524972020-05-23T15:16:19.782-07:002020-05-23T15:16:19.782-07:00You are welcome here Der Oger. But when I say &quo...You are welcome here Der Oger. But when I say "onward" the conversation moves to the next posting. Continue there!<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58604028693224021612020-05-23T14:48:08.763-07:002020-05-23T14:48:08.763-07:00Re: Utopias and Star Trek: What I liked about Star...Re: Utopias and Star Trek: What I liked about Star Trek: The First Contact was the Scene when Picard freaked out, and Lily compared him to Ahab. That showed me that people still were people, and even with all their sophistication, had basic human desires and motivations.<br /><br />https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DHVd-U1sAwvo&ved=2ahUKEwiZne3G-crpAhXH5KQKHVIfCcsQwqsBMAJ6BAgFEA0&usg=AOvVaw33EfrG0SFA065mbTEf41kEDer Ogerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00977602334642769985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-63680269382429060582020-05-23T14:41:17.844-07:002020-05-23T14:41:17.844-07:00=
TML: I have long spoken of the rising “Age of A...=<br /><br />TML: I have long spoken of the rising “Age of Amateurs” as decisive rebuttal to the “we’re soft and decadent and lazy” incantation of (mostly) far right romantic gloom merchants.<br /><br />LH” good point about those nasty TNG aliens!<br /><br />AGN: Your “free trader freighter” concept is EXACTLY what I wanted Paramount to do with Kirk after he returns with the whales in ST4. (I deem ST3 to be like all third movies in the 80s-90s… an utter betrayal and travesty.)<br /><br />No, Kirk returns saving Earth, so he’s lauded… and cashiered from the service for mutiny and he and Scotty etc buy a freighter and…<br /><br />But now... alas... I must say...<br /><br />onward<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-50090029949244562782020-05-23T14:13:06.017-07:002020-05-23T14:13:06.017-07:00@ Dr. Brin: Re: Prescriptive Utopias-
ISTM that &q...@ Dr. Brin: Re: Prescriptive Utopias-<br />ISTM that "requiring" something is rather crude (if currently necessary in most cases).<br />With what we already know (and will continue to learn) about human behavior through behavioral economics, cognitive neuroscience, etc. we'll be able to influence large numbers of people, both individually and in the aggregate, not perfectly or consistently, but enough to "do things". You don't have to prevent people from doing something if they believe that doing it is meaningless or if it never occurred to them to do at all... <br />I may have mentioned this before, but the first large-scale, successful use of (a very crude version of) psycho-history wasn't in 0 FE, but in 2016 CE...<br /><br />I recall reading (in SF) through the years of special schools and training to develop mental powers and abilities. Imagine if there were a group "out there" that looked for promising individuals with certain mental traits, to be carefully trained to enhance and develop them to their fullest. However, this wouldn't be to train *Bene Gesserit, *Mentats, or **Mnemonics, but to train ***"Dexters" and ****"Villanelles"- a "School for Psychopaths," with special emphasis on leadership training...BTW, this group plays the "long game" and they have a plan....<br /><br /><br />Happy Trails,<br />kh<br /><br />* Dune<br />** Sucker Bait<br />*** Dexter<br />**** Killing Eve/Codename Villanelle<br /><br />Keith Halperinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-6169354696103744382020-05-23T13:42:41.872-07:002020-05-23T13:42:41.872-07:00@Everybody: Re: Star Trek-
ST has "gone downr...@Everybody: Re: Star Trek-<br />ST has "gone downright Marvel on you ass" i.e., they seem to be creating as many new shows as possible (like the Marvel Shared Universe).<br /><br />What I know of ST:<br />Live Action:<br />1) Discovery- Aired, renewed.<br />2) Picard- Aired, renewed.<br />3) Strange New Worlds- Planned (as previously mentioned), episodic, optimistic (like TOS)<br />4) "Crouching Trekker, Hidden Dragon"- (What I'm calling the Michelle Yeoh Section 31 series)- Planned, I HOPE it's "Torchwood" dark- a guy who watched TW said: <br />"If this gets any darker, we won't be able to see it..."<br /><br />Animated<br />5) Lower Decks- for adults<br />6) Some other youth-oriented one on Nickelodeon<br /><br />I just wish CBS "In Excess" let SF writers do some of the teleplays, as NBC/Desilu did with Ellison, Sturgeon, and<br /><br />............................................................<br /><br />Re: The Doomsday Machine by Norman Spinrad (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Doomsday_Machine_(episode)) <br /><br />My younger sister and I thought it looked like one of the horn-shaped corn snacks called "bugles": <br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bugles_brand_snack_food.jpg<br />https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQwKqq-NuvTKvqn8OoHJ8rKmFdiQmjqityr4rdMGpXxuS25JJL6&usqp=CAU<br />(There are reported claims that if you leave bugles sitting out for a couple of days they go stale and get as hard as neutronium, but I've not tested that...) <br /><br /><br />Stay Nerdy, My Friends<br />-kh<br />Keith Halperinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23270776374831808952020-05-23T13:36:04.060-07:002020-05-23T13:36:04.060-07:00Tim Wolter:
My pitch for a Star Trek series would...Tim Wolter:<br /><br />My pitch for a Star Trek series would center around a free trader/privateer vessel operating on the fringes of the Federation. The Captain would be a former Star Fleet officer discharged after being court-martialed, and they would have diverse opponents and encounters with nausicaan space pirates, overzealous or corrupt Star Fleet officers, ancient alien ruins and colonies inhabited by people who turned away from the Federation.<br /><br />(Ideally, someone comes up with a TV Show based on the Traveller universe, mixing up Firefly & Game of Thrones.)A German Nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-29439807138090746792020-05-23T13:20:28.325-07:002020-05-23T13:20:28.325-07:00There was that episode toward the first season of ...There was that episode toward the first season of TNG in which scorpion-creatures were controlling the minds of Starfleet officers. And at the end, one of them beamed a message out into space, presumably to their home planet? Nothing ever came of that. Are those particular life forms still out there?<br /><br />scidata:<br /><i><br />I see the antagonist in BNW terms. Utopia vs humanity.<br /></i><br /><br />I'd call BNW a dystopia rather than utopia. The human race was stuck on a treadmill on which survival depended upon dedicating the entirety of our lives to the tending and maintenance of machines. There was enough pleasantness to prevent mass unrest, but hardly the sort of life I think of as Utopian. In fact, to me, Utopia would involve freedom from drudgery so that one could more fully <b>be</b> human. The opposite thing from the dichotomy that you suggest.<br /><br />I'm bouncing around topics here, but to me, the obvious antagonist in an updated <i>Star Trek</i> would be a Trump-like civilization which blatantly ignores reality and insists on asserting their own alternative facts to justify any action on their part. "The Prime Directive says I can do whatever I want." That kind of thing.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1668725750706963102020-05-23T13:18:31.592-07:002020-05-23T13:18:31.592-07:00I have a feeling many of the contributors here alr...I have a feeling many of the contributors here already have eccentric hobbies. Collecting meteorites? Exploring alternative building methods at home? Native American pottery? LARPing? Check :DTheMadLibrarianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09103164355746196049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-35368388533404661702020-05-23T13:06:00.157-07:002020-05-23T13:06:00.157-07:00It's PRESCRIPTIVE utopias that are scariest. E...It's PRESCRIPTIVE utopias that are scariest. Even my "The 4th Vocation of George Gustaf" -- in which citizens are required to seek eccentric avocations and hobbies - and the more eccentric or original the better - has the rambunctious individualism we cherish... but has a chilling aspect in the prescriptive word "required."David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68420417531330020962020-05-23T13:05:43.752-07:002020-05-23T13:05:43.752-07:00Tim Wolter:
The Borg were quite good, but have be...Tim Wolter:<br /><i><br />The Borg were quite good, but have been neutered by over use.<br /></i><br /><br />The only way the climax to "The Best of Both Worlds"--the very first TNG end-of-season cliffhanger--makes sense is if that cube that gets blown up at the end contains the <b>entirety</b> of the Borg. If, after essentially using up all of Starfleet to keep that cube from reaching Earth, there are many <b>other</b> cubes out there, any one of which could reach Earth if it wanted to, then the episode was pointless. Or at the very least a Pyrrhic victory.<br /><br />Which is to say, I was disappointed the first time the Borg were brought back after that episode. And the "Borg Queen"? Gag me.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40189929898785971022020-05-23T12:19:03.906-07:002020-05-23T12:19:03.906-07:00I see the antagonist in BNW terms. Utopia vs human...I see the antagonist in BNW terms. Utopia vs humanity. Vulcans are scarier than Romulans. Like when Kirk exclaims in ST5, "I don't want you to take my pain away - I <b>need</b> my pain."<br /><br />Possible breadcrumbs were set down by Le Guin's Urras ("The Dispossessed") and our host's various anti-human cults ("Foundation's Triumph"). In TOS, I thought Landrew's world came close.scidatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07152319593457629592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19434532569431232982020-05-23T12:04:20.150-07:002020-05-23T12:04:20.150-07:00Tim, one of the more famous Original Series episod...Tim, one of the more famous Original Series episodes was about a berserker. But yes, after Voyager and DS9, the Federation is the core of a galactic civilization and so a new foe should be GALLACTICUS!<br /><br />Seriously, see my latest book THE ANCIENT ONES for fresh trek ideas.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22119099592701788252020-05-23T11:59:19.610-07:002020-05-23T11:59:19.610-07:00https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/05/14/jef...https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/05/14/jeff-bezos-worlds-first-trillionaire-sparks-heated-debate/5189161002/<br /><br />Another one for the predictions registry...<br /><br /><i><br />According to Comparisun, a company which allows small- to medium-sized firms to compare different business products, the world's first <b>trillionaire</b> will likely be Amazon founder and CEO Jeff Bezos.<br /></i>Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30022651429934174312020-05-23T10:16:04.242-07:002020-05-23T10:16:04.242-07:00As was stated in the webcomic Schlock Mercenary, L...As was stated in the webcomic Schlock Mercenary, Lieutenants tend to follow a Sergeant in motion. <br /><br />AcaciaAcacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-65877124888614484782020-05-23T09:18:05.570-07:002020-05-23T09:18:05.570-07:00Thanks Alfred!
For a Sci Fi thread there has be...Thanks Alfred! <br /><br />For a Sci Fi thread there has been relatively little on topic. I had hopes that some of you would take up my challenge to "write a better proposal for a Star Trek Series". My only parameters were try not to go fully Dark! and Gritty!, which is the antithesis of Star Trek. Oh, and lets ease up on the Mary Sue-ism. Maybe the appeal of 90 pound females leveling foes three times their mass with high kicks (in high heels) will fade now that the Asian markets where I suspect this sort of thing is hot stuff may become less important.<br /><br />So, here's my pitch. If I win by default, I shall exhalt in my glorious victory, barbarically drinking mead from a aurochs horn atop my throne of skulls....<br /><br />Trek needs an antagonist. If the Federation is what we should become then our foes are what we have risen above or just plain been lucky enough to dodge.<br /><br />The Borg were quite good, but have been neutered by over use. Romulans, Klingons, Ferengi..heck they'd all be fun to have a drink with and essentially just reflect various aspects of ourselves.<br /><br />We need to borrow the Berserkers from Fred Saberhagen. Heck, David probably knows whoever is managing his estate. The concept in fact was already borrowed way back in TOS when that big gizmo that looked - hmm...a lot like an aurochs horn - destroyed planets. Well, what if just before it was destroyed it sent off an undetectable beacon or a thousand cloaked mini-von Neumanns and the Berserker fleet has been building in stealth ever since.<br /><br />You could still have enough 'splosions to keep the hoi polloi stimulated....but if you've read the series, and I assume most have, that was a big canvas on which to write more thoughtful stuff. I'm thinking Captain Johann Karlson and the crew of the USS Saber will have prominent and tasty roles to play. <br /><br />I could run off a half dozen good eps in the next hour. But so could you. <br /><br />I'm not greedy. If our genial host or anyone else wants to swipe this concept, pitch it and get famous, great. Send a little script doctoring work my way once in a while. I have only one request and I fear that it is non negotiable. In anything derived from this little von Neumann of an idea I want an anonymous credit. Way down in the bottom in small print. Maybe below Make Up assistant and Grip please credit me as follows: "Gripping Hand - Alien Smithee"<br /><br />T. WolterTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78046294945248022002020-05-23T09:08:58.071-07:002020-05-23T09:08:58.071-07:00Just saw a commercial on TV. At 21 seconds in the ...Just saw <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJxMClwJLjc" rel="nofollow">a commercial</a> on TV. At 21 seconds in the ad copy is "<i>until</i> dogs can speak for themselves.." Nice to see some optimism. It's uplifting.Lorrainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13567383019731167967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-16979961849349308282020-05-23T08:58:27.015-07:002020-05-23T08:58:27.015-07:00I squint and can see your meaning, Alfred, tho als...I squint and can see your meaning, Alfred, tho also clearly the terminology is meant to jar us into stepping back for word-perspective. I can see it. Rascal.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-89838933455977045612020-05-22T23:17:37.163-07:002020-05-22T23:17:37.163-07:00{continued}
I mean this in the most complementary...{continued}<br /><br />I mean this in the most complementary sense…<br /><br />Most Americans posting here are good examples of our brand of Barbarian.<br /><br />Matthew certainly is.<br />Larry too.<br />and Tim. Definitely Tim.<br />and our host. Most definitely.<br /><br />Not everyone posting here is, but it's way more than half. Way more.<br />That's a big part of what keeps my interest. 8)Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-76704081476645134332020-05-22T23:08:44.573-07:002020-05-22T23:08:44.573-07:00A German Nurse,
We have Richard "The Viceroy...A German Nurse,<br /><br /><i>We have Richard "The Viceroy" Grenell as an ambassador who loudly spoke of supporting the far right, and working with Bannon to create a network of nationalist and extremist parties.</i><br /><br />That and a number of other things will require us to apologize to all of you after the next inauguration. I suspect we will, but we have to beat our klepto-tyrant first.<br /><br />_____<br /><br />As for our military and intelligence forces, I agree with our host. What many fail to understand about us is how deeply faithful we are to our brand of barbarism. Real barbarians don't kill indiscriminately and they certainly don't take orders from from fools. I mean this very seriously. We are barbarians so sure of our ideals that we are willing to kill for them. Or be killed. Hopefully it doesn't come to any of that, but if it does, don't expect any pundits to predict us correctly unless they understand the depths of our commitment to 'being the barbarian.'<br /><br />We are SO sure of ourselves in what we believe that the entire world could tell us we are wrong and we'd scoff at them. We have. We will again. The problem is that WHAT we believe is splintered, so we can't agree with our neighbors and we scoff at them too. Often. This attitude could easily cause us to collapse into violence toward each other, except we scoff at leaders who suggest that too. Fortunately. Only a True Barbarian believes so strongly that they do NOT have to smack doubters to make them believe. Heresy doesn't matter. Big whoop.<br /><br />I've met a number of naval officers and high ranked enlisted sailors. None of them fail to believe they serve the nation. None of them fail to understand that every one of them can fail to do it well. That makes them skeptical of each other too. Scoffing openly doesn't happen, but they think about it when someone screws up. They have many reasons to do so… and many ways to respond to stupid orders.<br /><br />My father spent his first career in the USAF. Worked his way up to E8 which is the last enlisted rank before the top. Used his vet benefits to go to college starting when I was about 10 or so. We were still fighting in Vietnam, so he wasn't required to wear his uniform while attending classes. He was told not to antagonize the other students, but didn't have to be told. I was young enough to think a college degree meant he intended to become an officer. "Not so" he told me. Turns out the O6's tended to listen to and trust the E7-9's far more than the youngest officers like O1-2's. The officers out-ranked my father, but didn't have his gray hair. Many were still wet behind the ears. The Service was run sensibly no matter the chain of command. That was the lesson he taught me that day… and every day after his retirement when he came back as a federal contractor.<br /><br />The official chain of command IS followed, but it is also NOT followed. They all know their jobs, so when others screw them up, they adjust as necessary. Well… the ones who intend to make a career of it do. The lower enlisted folks? Maybe not so much. However, the folks who tell them what to do tend to be in long enough to plan careers. Screwing up ends careers even if it is someone else's screw up. Every naval captain knows this and I've seen it first hand. They believe in themselves and their ideals. Barbarians to the core.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85340335491662211852020-05-22T19:50:20.187-07:002020-05-22T19:50:20.187-07:00AGN: while your impressions are supported by both ...AGN: while your impressions are supported by both history and logic, they are nevertheless largely wrong about the US militray, especially the officer corps, which has been successively changed, modernized and pushed toward maturity since the reforms of George Marshall, in the 1930s. Especially since Vietnam, all Academies have courses on how to distinguish legal from illegal orders and Abu Graib cause a redoubling of those classes.<br /><br />Is that enough? Of course not. Especially since the enlisted ranks (much less so the officers) hail largely from rural or southern or plains states. But education is pushed at every level and you do not rise above captain without the equivalent of a masters degree... then another one... or a doctorate... to get flag rank.<br /><br />It's not your fault that you don't know how deeply-religious is the commitment of most senior officers to obedience to constitutional civilian rule. They speak of it often and I know officers who have never voted, thinking it a symbolic act of commitment to an apolitical life.<br /><br />But I can tell you that a majority of those officers are now fretting deeply over the matters we discuss here. So far, they have managed to neutralize the worst Trump endeavors at intimidation and illegality, sometimes bravely on our behalf. Can they keep it up, across a 2nd term? I doubt it very much. They have kept a line of civilization for us. We must rescue them, in the fall.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56349483923913027352020-05-22T18:50:35.848-07:002020-05-22T18:50:35.848-07:00Dr. Brin:
You are right. I am not familiar with t...Dr. Brin: <br />You are right. I am not familiar with the US Armed forces. But I am familiar with soldiers, and the last time In checked, they were not considered to be selective about following orders.<br /><br />Second, there might once have been effective barriers against illegal behaviors. The fate of the Vindham brothers and the Inspectors General shows that there are widening cracks in the safety systems, and I don't count on the Senate to stop him.<br /><br />I sincerely ask you: which controls remain to deter illegal activities?<br /><br />Third, people are people. While I will concede that there could be a sizeable number of bureaucrats, IC members, and soldiers of high rank with flawless integrity and high moral standards, the majority are people who just want to get along. Many have families or college debts to pay or are easily intimidated by toxic supervisors.<br /><br />Fourth, the Armed Forces (Like law enforcement agencies) usually attract a larger number of people from a specific political spectrum, and institutions become blind to certain transgressions. <br /><br />Finally, countless actions of dubious legality have (with consent of our federal government) taken place on or have been coordinated in our soil - abductions, extralegal killings, mass surveillance. Oh, and Abu Ghoraib and the Bagdad Helicopter Hunting Party. Trump pardoning war criminals. And so on.<br /><br />I admit that the Putsch scenario is unlikely, though there have been precedents (Ajax, Chile). Sharing intel with fringe groups or equipping them with weapons might be easier, as as well as promoting general unrest. <br /><br />That all said, I am a supporter of NATO and would oppose any "political neutrality" that would in fact empower Putin and China. <br /><br />Just sceptical and worrying.<br />A German Nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23413508034162390052020-05-22T15:39:52.496-07:002020-05-22T15:39:52.496-07:00AGN: of your two scenarios, (1) putin would not de...AGN: of your two scenarios, (1) putin would not demolish the GOP with that invasion before the election, but just AFTER the election as part of Trump's final spite spasm? Sure. Maybe.<br /><br />(2) But Grenell will be recognized by the "deep state" intel community as what he is. In the short term, he will be cauterized and any effort to warp the intel folks toward such evil will be dutifully recorded and presented as evidence at his trial.<br /><br />(2) "But I believe a majority of soldiers will follow the presidents orders, even if forced to betray supposedly allied nations."<br /><br />You seriously do not know the US armed forces at all.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15672871438189325552020-05-22T14:56:58.422-07:002020-05-22T14:56:58.422-07:00I am looking forward to the new version of Dune. I...I am looking forward to the new version of Dune. I doubt Lynch ist really to blame, as he had his budget and shooting time severely limited by the studio.<br /><br />On Open Skys and Trumps Russia-friendly policy:<br /><br />We have 40.000 US soldiers and intelligence officers in our country. <br />We have Richard "The Viceroy" Grenell as an ambassador who loudly spoke of supporting the far right, and working with Bannon to create a network of nationalist and extremist parties.<br /><br />There are two possible scenarios that worry me. First, Putin invades the Baltic states; and Trump chooses to do nothing.<br /><br />Second, Grenell (now as acting head of Intelligence) directs the agencies to undermine European democracies, and perhaps the troops on our soil are ordered to support putschists one day.<br /><br />The Corona crisis has diminished my worries somewhat. But I believe a majority of soldiers will follow the presidents orders, even if forced to betray supposedly allied nations.<br /><br />Unfounded speculation, but perhaps this is one of the reasons why the Deutsche Bank hasn't disclosed what they know. A German Nursenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12884965266412035412020-05-22T13:44:56.116-07:002020-05-22T13:44:56.116-07:00> For example, by acceleration of the 'natu...<br />> For example, by acceleration of the 'natural' process. Get hundreds of diseased bats &<br />> pangolins etc into an enclosed space with a hundred monkeys and stir. Natural zoonoses<br />> crossover can be rushed that way and there'd be no trace of "lab meddling." If it crosses,<br /><br />A premise so ridiculous it could only work by accident. I can imagine the funding proposal, but only as farce. <br /><br />"Last year we proposed a small tissue culture lab with benches for four staff and two small rooms to house a hundred cages of mice and rats. This year we are proposing an experiment involving thousands of bats, dozens of pangolins (wild-caught), and dozens of monkeys. We hope that waves of disease run through the captive animals, leading to cross-species transmission and eventually to primate to primate transmission. While our research plan puts these animals in close contact and under constant viral infection, and this will speed up viral evolution and increase cross-species infection opportunities, viral evolution is essentially a random process, and results can not be guarantied by the first grant review period."<br /><br />"We will need a large animal room, several smaller facilities with 'feeder' stock to replace the large die off we anticipate, and clean colonies and test rooms to assess new isolates. A closed mid-size school would suffice. It will need to be refit with decontamination space, industrial-size autoclaves, a crematorium or lime pit, and will require a dozen animal caretakers. We expect to source the tons of fresh fruit required each week from local markets, but may need to establish insect colonies in house to feed the pangolins."<br /><br />"In addition, we will need an additional research lab to sample, sequence, and test new viral isolates on an ongoing basis. While the results of such an experiment are unpredictable, and die-offs within the bat and pangolin populations may slow the research, we hope a long term commitment to fund this dangerous and pointless research will be given your best consideration."<br /><br />"A facility this large, funded at any reasonable level, will undoubtedly see bats escape back into the wild. After all, escaped mice are common in the best run animal facilities. But this presents a minimal risk the community as bats can fly many miles a day, and are unlikely to remain in the immediate neighborhood. If bats in the wild die off, that's no big loss in any event."<br /><br />There's a reason that the long term evolution experiments that have been done are on bacteria, yeast, and fruit flies. And there's that one fox breeding experiment in Russia...<br /><br />Jim Lundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07539726697282516580noreply@blogger.com