tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post3050776463823695180..comments2024-03-18T17:09:55.964-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Questions I’m often asked. Part II: About Science Fiction!David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68328701883442764372013-03-20T07:19:56.587-07:002013-03-20T07:19:56.587-07:00Rather than copy the comment I made response to yo...Rather than copy the comment I made response to you over on my blog, which got a bit long, I'm going to start from scratch and see if I can be a little more pithy and brief.<br /><br />The genre of fantasy does not consist of stories about the days of old. That's historical fiction. Historical fiction can be fantasy (anything can) but it becomes fantasy only with the inclusion of fantasy elements, which are mythic elements. It is the inclusion of mythic elements -- gods and devils, magic, wondrous items, quasi-human races, fantastic beasts -- that makes it fantasy. The Arthurian legends weren't fantasy because they had kings and knights in armor, but because they had Excalibur, the spells of Merlin and Morgan la Fée, mysterious entities such as the Lady of the Lake and the Green Knight, and the Holy Grail.<br /><br />Fantasy goes back to the dawn of writing. The ancient myths and legends were fantasy. It's also possible for science fiction to be fantasy, if mythic elements are included in it.<br /><br />In short, reducing all of fantasy to a Tolkien knock-off is unwarranted. Even with such works, even with Tolkien's writing itself, the draw is not the medieval panoply but the mythic elements in the story, which can be (and these days mostly is) presented in a different context.<br /><br />"In all my works . . . a major topic is accountability and the give and take of a wise and open civilization that let’s no one man’s delusions go unquestioned."<br /><br />Actually, David, that's untrue. I can't think of a single fictional work of yours in which that was a major topic. Due process vs. public safety, environmentalism, open-mindedness vs. dogmatism, fanaticism vs. moderation, you've done all of these, but I can't think of a single work of fiction you've written in which the accountability of powerful individuals to society was a major theme.<br /><br />Which of course doesn't lead me for one second to think that you don't <i>believe</i> such people should be accountable to society. Why, then, does it lead you to a conclusion like that merely because someone chooses to focus on other themes?<br /><br />Thanks again for taking the time to talk.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06515817930457694455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58514598396476199022013-03-18T17:16:28.298-07:002013-03-18T17:16:28.298-07:00[continued]
I meant no insult, of course, in sayi...[continued]<br /><br />I meant no insult, of course, in saying that your characters are generally larger than life and well above the average. (Does that truly sound like an insult? Would you prefer if I’d said, “David, your characters bore the hell out of me and put me to sleep”? Come on.) And I admit I haven’t read literally everything you’ve written — but not too far from it. Jacob Demwa? Tom Orley? Captain Creideiki? The main character in Earth whose name escapes me, who tried to solve our ecological dilemmas through mass murder? The cream-of-the-crop chimpanzees in The Uplift War? Very rarely do you present an ordinary, average person as a character, and when you do that character is not the main protagonist or villain. This is not an insult — I’m saying you have the ability to create powerful, interesting characters that are exciting to follow along with, either to love or to hate.<br /><br />“How, when evil is recognizably ugly, with red, glowing eyes, do we learn a darned thing?”<br /><br />Ah, but even when that’s the case (and it isn’t always), the important evil isn’t that, but what’s in us. Our own capacity for it is the important thing, and the shadowy figure with the glowing eyes only serves to put us to the test. Its evil isn’t in doubt, but ours is.<br /><br />The fact is, there are other questions facing us — I won’t say more important ones, but certainly important ones — besides the struggle to achieve an advanced society and leave the darkness of the Dark Ages behind. Not every story is about that, or needs to be. The fact that a story is set in a medieval or ancient setting doesn’t mean that those times are being offered as a model for how we ought to live, anymore than your own matriarchal world in Glory Season is presented as your recommendation for society. (Or at least I didn’t take it as such.)<br /><br />“Star Trek heroes may be above average, but that is okay and a BIG difference from being demigods, as the heroes are in Star Wars.”<br /><br />Well — not really. A person with extraordinary abilities, whether he is a master of the Force like Darth Vader or an uber-thief/spy like J. Demwa, is a potential danger to those around him who are less able. As this is a fact of life in one form or another — we are not, in fact, all created equal — I hardly see why depicting it in fiction is a problem, unless one depicts the victimization as just or a good thing, which no stories do that I can think of offhand. (Except for a few in the Bible, and that’s off-topic.) There’s a huge difference between someone who is empowered by society to oppress the weak (like a feudal lord), and someone who is enabled to do this by his own personal abilities — particularly when the judgment of society harshly condemns his doing so, rather than claiming that it is his right of birth.<br /><br />I will say this much. I am a fantasy author, but I doubt I’ll ever put anything in a medieval setting, because the idea bores the hell out of me, and also because I share your condemnation of the problems with such a society. But that’s rather than point.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06515817930457694455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9391431310116935862013-03-18T17:15:59.688-07:002013-03-18T17:15:59.688-07:00Hi, David,
Thank's enormously for dropping by...Hi, David,<br /><br />Thank's enormously for dropping by my blog and responding to my most recent post. I put a response to your comment there, but as you suggested I'm copying it here, and this seems like the appropriate post of yours to attach it to.<br /><br />I’m going to reply here, and then I’ll copy this to David’s blog. I really appreciate him taking the time to drop by, even it is a hit and run.<br /><br />There’s a lot to say in response to this. Starting with:<br /><br />“First off… those cultures of the past most definitely did have “wizards!” They were also called priests, shamans, grand viziers and so on.”<br /><br />Well, there’s a problem with that, David, when you’re comparing those “wizards” to the wizards of fantasy. Priests, etc. held a position in society which fantasy wizards almost never do. Fantasy wizards aren’t official voices of sacred authority, but more commonly outsiders bringing visions that those in power foolishly reject. (Either that, or they’re the bad guys.) The comparison doesn’t really work. So really we are talking about kings and lords, and one might add “priests” to this list; wizards are a fantasy element added to a medieval (or other) setting and not really a part of that setting.<br /><br />“To blithely claim that most modern fantasy does not take place in feudal or quasi-feudal settings is so counterfactual that I really wanted to see if Brian was trying to pull it off with a straight face.”<br /><br />I’m quite serious, and it’s not counterfactual in the least! To illustrate this, I’m going to pop over to the Amazon Kindle Store and take a look at their top fantasy sellers (I’ll examine only the paid bestsellers rather than the free ones). In the top 10, I find four books that are even in a medieval setting at all, and only one that MAY romanticize such a world in the way you suggest is the norm. (I include that “may” because I haven’t read the book and so can’t evaluate it for certain, but for reasons stated below I strongly doubt it.) These are Disenchanted by Robert Kroese (a humorous fantasy), The Mongoliad book 1 by a number of authors including Greg Bear (and I have a hard time imagining that author — who is another of my favorite science-fiction writers — contributing to a work of that nature), A Dance With Dragons by George R.R. Martin (a grim, bleak, and extremely harsh view of a medieval society, hardly a panegyric to it, as is this entire series), and A Game of Thrones by the same author to which the same observation applies. Of the remaining six, one is set in a pure-fantasy setting (it’s a life-after-death thing), and the other five are all contemporary fantasy.<br /><br />So among the top sellers at Amazon, at least, what you are regarding as the norm is not only not the norm, it’s not to be found at all these days.<br /><br />Now, I’m not suggesting that medieval romances are no longer being written at all. I’m fairly certain they are, but this is not a current trend in the genre.<br /><br />This fact alone pretty much undercuts your entire argument, David. If fantasy ISN’T a romantic rapture with times gone by, then one cannot level valid criticism against it based on the idea that it IS.<br /><br />[continued in next comment]<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06515817930457694455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-57209112182928029852013-03-10T18:49:33.160-07:002013-03-10T18:49:33.160-07:00Larry,
It's also not a post-apocalypse film. I...Larry,<br />It's also not a post-apocalypse film. It's just "Die Hard Does The Whitehouse".Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30185301090267394992013-03-10T13:57:42.806-07:002013-03-10T13:57:42.806-07:00Oops, my mistake on Harrison Ford. Apparently tha...Oops, my mistake on Harrison Ford. Apparently that's not him playing the president in the trailers for "Olympus Has Fallen"--just someone who looks like him.<br /><br />Which means it's probably not actually a sequel to "Air Force One" after all. Oh well.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-82109653175804045652013-03-10T00:50:21.087-08:002013-03-10T00:50:21.087-08:00"At the earliest points chieftains were elect..."At the earliest points chieftains were elected. They got a bit more cause they had the responsibility of protecting the tribe from marauding bands. Their position could be quite precarious based on how well they led - or even entirely out of their hands based on the changing seasons and the crop yields."anonymous, you might want to read up on the Melanesian phenomenon of "Big Men".<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_man_%28anthropology%29<br /><br />Big Men are not chiefs, they have no power to compel anyone to follow them.<br /><br />They mostly get their pay-off not in material goods but in terms of prestige.<br /><br />A typical Big Man might, for example, organize a raid on a neighboring tribe or convince people to take part in a trading mission.<br /><br />The general theory is that Big Men flourished so long as people could simply get up and move away if their local big Man got too overbearing.<br /><br />Then with the development of agriculture, people found that a lot harder.<br /><br />Most Big Man groups probably didn't evolve into chieftainships but the ones that did took over or marginalized most of the rest.<br /><br />(A related issue i that Melanesians lacked a convenient way to store wealth and surplus food which in turn meant Big Man couldn't hire a standing army. <br /><br />The San people of South Africa have similar traditions. When an anthropologist asked a group of San what stopped the best hunters bossing everyone around the answer was simple: "Everyone has to sleep some time."<br />Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739671401151990700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-82658086336029543512013-03-10T00:34:24.512-08:002013-03-10T00:34:24.512-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16378824705047547032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8355571839427305892013-03-09T20:23:41.056-08:002013-03-09T20:23:41.056-08:00Recent mindblowing SF: rereading Donald Kingsbury&...Recent mindblowing SF: rereading Donald Kingsbury's <i>Psychohistorical Crisis</i>, and Michael Flynn's Spiral Arm series (<i>January Dancer</i>, <i>Up Jim River</i>, <i>In the Lion's Mouth</i>, and upcoming <i>On the Razor's Edge</i>).MaysonicWriteshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15191812487437295702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48670531217476490772013-03-09T19:56:03.483-08:002013-03-09T19:56:03.483-08:00thanks LarryHart, i was hoping that it was somethi...thanks LarryHart, i was hoping that it was something i hadn't read, but nice comic anyway, and a decent bookOrmazdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13162275699447063701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-13534734714843357092013-03-09T18:39:11.371-08:002013-03-09T18:39:11.371-08:00Ok, I just took my kid to see "Oz, the Great ...Ok, I just took my kid to see "Oz, the Great and Powerful," and during the previews of other movies, there were two separate films about a future where Earth has been abandoned and those wanting to live here face a hostile environment. Plus another movie called "Olympus Has Fallen" which looks like a sequel to "Air Force One" in which an even OLDER president played by Harrison Ford has to deal with the aftermath of (what looks like) a successful terrorist invasion of Washington.<br /><br />Post-apocalypse seems to be firmrly in the zeitgeist these days.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-87412421383317077752013-03-09T12:55:14.748-08:002013-03-09T12:55:14.748-08:00I'm not sure if this counts as a predictive hi...I'm not sure if this counts as a predictive hit or not:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21572160-viruses-sometimes-save-their-hosts-rather-killing-them-enemies-no-longer" rel="nofollow">Viruses that confer benefits to their hosts</a>sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2917985323544644252013-03-09T04:51:44.242-08:002013-03-09T04:51:44.242-08:00At the earliest points chieftains were elected. Th...At the earliest points chieftains were elected. They got a bit more cause they had the responsibility of protecting the tribe from marauding bands. Their position could be quite precarious based on how well they led - or even entirely out of their hands based on the changing seasons and the crop yields.<br />The fisher king myth derives from this, the land was tied to the chiefs and reflected his leadership and ability, and if the crops were withering the dude could find himself the subject of human sacrifice to renew it.<br /><br />Remnants of this proto-democracy can be seen in the Viking 'tings' of the middle agesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58541412077007772752013-03-08T23:38:46.032-08:002013-03-08T23:38:46.032-08:00Dr Brin,
Regarding the main post, it's nice t...Dr Brin,<br /><br />Regarding the main post, it's nice to know that even famous writers like yourself can get their minds blown (in a good sense) by other writers.<br /><br />For me, at a fairly young age, I began to understand that my mind worked like a writer's, always taking mental notes and playing "what-if" games crafting stories around real-life events. One consequence is that I'm often left disappointed in stories when I think "I could have written that one better myself," (Return of the Jedi, for example).<br /><br />The flip-side of that is the ability to be absolutely blown away (again, in the good sense) when a writer creates something that I know I could not have possibly managed to do myself. The example I always give is the play "Death Trap" (there was a movie with Michael Caine and Christopher Reeve, but the play was much better). The play is ABOUT the writing of a play, which turns out to be the same play going on on stage. The concept is brilliant, and at the tender age of sixteen, I walked out of that performance thinking something like "THAT's worth paying a professional to produce."<br /><br />And just so you know, I often think similar thoughts about your novels.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18388955671733695092013-03-08T23:28:39.209-08:002013-03-08T23:28:39.209-08:00Did anyone else notice that Brunner's 'Sta...Did anyone else notice that Brunner's 'Stand on Zanzibar' -- with its introduction full of seemingly disjointed factoids followed by disparate narrations that converge at the end -- utilized the same format as Melville's 'Moby Dick' ?locumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39129413813463730522013-03-08T23:27:58.381-08:002013-03-08T23:27:58.381-08:00Ormazd, I don't have Dr Brin's book open i...Ormazd, I don't have Dr Brin's book open in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I remember the scene you are talking about. If so, he was referring to the "Watchmen" comic book/graphic novel from 1986, recently made into a movie.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-33457269169916393072013-03-08T19:50:20.231-08:002013-03-08T19:50:20.231-08:00in one part of the existence book, david brin ment...in one part of the existence book, david brin mentions a episode of the outer limits and comic of the 80's that influenced the "work" of Hamish, somebody knows what comic is that? and for that matter, the episode?Ormazdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13162275699447063701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60288877335049426272013-03-08T14:36:40.542-08:002013-03-08T14:36:40.542-08:00The author who spooked me the most in the last 10 ...The author who spooked me the most in the last 10 years or so was Octavia Butler. It sucks to be a human in some of her stories.<br /><br />David's Temptation story revived that spookiness for awhile. I only just read it a couple weeks ago. It made me nauseous near the end, but I suspect that was the intent. What a nifty little incantation. 8)Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-38848310903919108182013-03-08T14:25:36.084-08:002013-03-08T14:25:36.084-08:00I recently saw something that reminded me of Earth...I recently saw something that reminded me of Earth, specfically and app the will record criminal interactions while backing up the recording to a secure server and dialing 911. See for details http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19512_7-57452393-233/iwitness-app-claims-to-be-ultimate-deterrent-to-crime/ as the cnet comments point out (and exaggerate) there are some problems with this app, but it feels like a step in the right direction.<br />beoShaffernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-57451684431219797652013-03-08T14:06:45.981-08:002013-03-08T14:06:45.981-08:00Brunner's "minor" works also show an...Brunner's "minor" works also show an eerie prescience. I recently tried to clean out my long shelves of vintage scifi and found over a foot of his novels that I couldn't part with. "The Stone that Never Came Down", "The Stardroppers", "Bedlam Planet" - really too many to name, portrayed today's political and economic realities shockingly well, from 40 years ago.<br /><br />As I am now re-reading "Existence" (and finding even more to applaud than in the first hurried read), I notice that his "Interstellar distances are God's quarantine regulations" is quite central to that plot. <br /><br />However, I'll bet that in another 40 years your books are read and cited with even greater amazement as being shockingly insightful in the present as well as prophetic and inspirational. [And I take special pleasure in your treatment of "Hamish", since I shocked myself some years ago when I actually literally burned my copy of the book we might call "Condition of Panic" - something I have never done before or since.]madtomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09584394367265677892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59054679981318435782013-03-08T07:33:45.653-08:002013-03-08T07:33:45.653-08:00The Matrix Trilogy was fascinating when I skipped ...The Matrix Trilogy was fascinating when I skipped the silly fight scenes and focused on the dialogue. It covers topics of "What is Reality?", Choice, Determinism, Hope and Love.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14910555718688406054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49189357906070962612013-03-07T20:42:02.946-08:002013-03-07T20:42:02.946-08:00Agree with your assessment of Brunner, LeGuin, She...Agree with your assessment of Brunner, LeGuin, Sheckley & early Vinge, but later Vinge's 'Rainbow's End' was dry and pointless, Miller's "300" was a hilarious homoerotic parody on par with Spinrad's "Iron Dream", and your list was clearly inadequate since neglecting all the great golden age authors including other subversive 1970's powerhouses along the lines of Farmer (Riders of the Purple Wage), Lafferty (900 Grandmothers) and Spinrad (Agent of Chaos).<br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47371577097531088832013-03-07T20:01:06.464-08:002013-03-07T20:01:06.464-08:00Must track down a copy of Lord of Light one day!
...Must track down a copy of Lord of Light one day!<br /><br />Taking Martin's works as a whole, there is little doubt as to which side of the fight he's on. GOT sees to have started off as an hobby indulgence (sword whacking). While Westeros is portrayed as a place where life is bit on the nasty, brutish and short side (unless your a lord), it does seem to pander to the royal romantic.<br /><br />... and yet. And yet, the fifth novel has hints that this is about to change. We shall see (and in the meantime enjoy the masterly character portrayals!)Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-52111661647810712362013-03-07T16:03:48.575-08:002013-03-07T16:03:48.575-08:00I wonder what you think of "A Game of Thrones...I wonder what you think of "A Game of Thrones." I've just stated watching it, and haven't cracked the books yet. I don't know if it's part of George R. Martin's plans, but the series seems to be saying, in part, "It may be fun to watch, but look how much it sucks to live in a feudal world. Aren't ordinary, structured, and democratic elections better than all this treachery, chaos, betrayal, and violence?"<br /><br /><br />Jonathan Rothnoreply@blogger.com