tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post2365007233636280723..comments2024-03-28T23:39:08.616-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Altruistic Horizons: Our tribal natures, the 'fear effect' and the end of ideologiesDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger112125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72496737891127525622023-09-10T21:08:39.885-07:002023-09-10T21:08:39.885-07:00Thanks for this David. Appreciate your focus on pr...Thanks for this David. Appreciate your focus on pre-history as the basis of modern human behaviour.<br /><br />I characterise it as Maslow's Hierarchy meets in-group/out-group psychology. I agree that the more that ones basic needs are threatened, the less patient one is with outsiders.<br /><br />However, the problem with this approach is that tribes did not encounter one another often enough for this to be a sufficiently powerful fitness advantage. This is why Group Level Selection has been broadly rejected.<br /><br />Rather, within-group effects are likely to dominate our psychology. Even while inter-group effects are certainly present (shown by decades of empirical study iby Social Identity Theory, they are relatively weak acting and need to be activated by the presence of in-group/out-group conditions).<br /><br />This is why I commend sGLS for your consideration.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16280247551032857035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90094856361693929332023-08-29T15:00:24.780-07:002023-08-29T15:00:24.780-07:00Thank you.Thank you.LidFlipperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16576532654680359402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75750575146048084352020-06-23T00:35:05.529-07:002020-06-23T00:35:05.529-07:00To reply to the question of who you are addressing...To reply to the question of who you are addressing; may I suggest ME? I have longed for a forum that includes non-scientist or intellectuals but loves listening to your opinions. I "neglected my opportunities" and was a mailman and a National Guardsman for 50 years. But (although I feel a child in an adult conversation) I live for this.<br />As to your original premise: does Zilf's or Fiegenbauns constants enter into it? Are we stuck with moonshine of anthropology and economics. John Gribbon's book THE MIND's SKY answers some of these issues. Please file this under Dumb Questions.ESAUnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68619005076772102092018-10-30T02:07:33.486-07:002018-10-30T02:07:33.486-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.siskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07076079736141144027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-10646504275755150562015-09-26T09:28:30.759-07:002015-09-26T09:28:30.759-07:00The episode called “Mirror, Mirror” of the origina...The episode called “Mirror, Mirror” of the original Star Trek series already explored the “Starship Potemkin” idea rather well. Kirk and his team are projected into an alternative universe in which the Federation is an empire and Star Fleet is run by barbarians. Conquest, subjugation, slavery and intrigue are the only rules. In the end Kirk convinces the barbarian Spock that unless the Empire changes it will fall. <br /><br />Dr. Brin,<br /><br />This post of yours is a very tall order. It would take a book to fully explore the ideas you brought up. I will do my best to take on just a few parts.Deuxglassnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-3153594331495808422015-07-28T22:26:18.194-07:002015-07-28T22:26:18.194-07:00MK045 I never said there weren't personality d...MK045 I never said there weren't personality diffs tween those who call themselves "leftist" "Liberals" and "conservatives." In fact I made very clear that there ARE such diffs.<br /><br />(And "liberals" are very different than their leftist allies. It is not an ordained alliance except by present necessity.)<br /><br />No, what I dismissed as stupid is the actual common MEANING of "left/right" which YOU could not personally define well, if your life depended on it, nor would your definition be similar to that from anyone you know. It is a ridiculous, lobotomizing metaphor.<br /><br />If you want to continue, please do so under the most recent blog.<br /><br />success.<br /><br /> With cordial regards,<br /><br />David Brin<br />http://www.davidbrin.com<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />now onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19493726005242363412015-07-28T13:24:15.057-07:002015-07-28T13:24:15.057-07:00"It's like I've always said: dyslexia..."It's like I've always said: dyslexia is the mother of invention. :)"<br /><br />I thought it was the mover of intention :DAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68261547512227456342015-07-28T07:45:36.125-07:002015-07-28T07:45:36.125-07:00I loved the article and the concept behind it. Th...I loved the article and the concept behind it. There was one very short paragraph in the middle that bugged me a little, because I think there is actually hard data that contradicts.<br /><br /><i>Is this model the best one, yet, at explaining such differences? Certainly it is far better than any insipid “left-right political axis” or words such as “conservatism” and “liberalism.”</i><br /><br />I remember, perhaps a couple years ago, a number of studies that looked at the liberal-conservative axis. Yes, I agree that it gets too much focus, but the studies in question showed that there is a level of biological reality to it. One is <a href="http://www.salon.com/2014/07/29/secrets_of_the_right_wing_brain_new_study_proves_it_conservatives_see_a_different_hostile_world/" rel="nofollow">an article</a> on Salon. Not the most balanced source on the net, but it goes into the topic and has a link to the research. My quick Google search also turned up other links, articles, and studies.<br /><br />Using fMRI, researchers presented test subjects with pictures, questions, discussions on various topics. Subjects were asked to make responses or solve puzzles. They separately tested these subjects to understand voting patterns, liberal-conservative self-identification, etc. They found that those who identified/tested as conservative showed increased activation in areas of the brain associated with fear while answering the questions, while those who identified/tested as liberal showed increased brain activity in areas associated with logic, complexity, and problem solving.<br /><br />So there is, to some degree and limited by the cultural baggage, a connection between conservatism and fear. This ties remarkably to the observations in this article that conservatism is associated with wanting to keep horizons tight. The initial part of the article mentions that changing levels of fear affect horizons. But this also implies that unsustainable horizons, in the face of cultural pressures, by itself induces fear. Whatever you call it, a fear-based mindset, which we currently to refer to as "conservatism", is a real thing.<br /><br />Great work. I really look forward to a next iteration.mk045https://www.blogger.com/profile/04640615929077540716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-38859136633572622692015-07-27T18:40:12.024-07:002015-07-27T18:40:12.024-07:00Poverty and lack of education (sometimes state man...<i>Poverty and lack of education (sometimes state mandated inaccurate sex ed) are likely more correlated variables, which a multi-variate test could demonstrate. It has probably even been done somewhere.</i><br /><br />And it has. <br /><br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1744600/pdf/v079p00062.pdf" rel="nofollow">SHORT REPORT<br />Social capital, poverty, and income inequality as<br />predictors of gonorrhoea, syphilis, chlamydia and AIDS<br />case rates in the United States</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.siecus.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Feature.showFeature&featureID=1041" rel="nofollow">National Data Shows Comprehensive Sex Education Better at Reducing Teen Pregnancy than Abstinence-Only Programs</a><br /><br />No axe-grinding politics involved. Sex-education is an important determinant concerning STDs, IOW, education trumps religion in keeping STDs low. Poverty and being poorly connected increases STD rates.<br /><br />State religiosity impacts school sex education:<br /><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433801/" rel="nofollow">Associations Between Sexuality Education in Schools and Adolescent Birthrates</a><br /><br /><i>"There was a significant inverse relationship between a state’s religiosity and the percentage of schools in the state teaching condom efficacy or how to correctly use a condom averaged over time), indicating the more religious the state, the less condom education was taught (condom efficacy r=−0.48; P=.02; correct condom use r=−0.58; P=.003). The political ideology of a state was significantly associated with most of the sexuality education topics (significant r ranged from 0.43 to 0.68), indicating that the more liberal the state, the more sexuality education topics were taught. Political ideology was explored as a potential covariate in multivariable models but was not retained in the analysis because it was highly correlated with the sexuality education topics."</i><br /><br />Bottom line is that sex education matters. States that are religious tend to have poorer sex-ed. Poverty is also important and so poorer populations will have more unwanted pregnancies and STDs. While it relatively hard to eradicate poverty, it it much easier to mandate good sex education in schools. Not doing so is a result of allowing religion to interfere with practical education. <br /><br />Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-91641059707269300012015-07-27T18:30:24.759-07:002015-07-27T18:30:24.759-07:00onward
onward<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59371910093307818692015-07-27T18:08:43.458-07:002015-07-27T18:08:43.458-07:00Robert I loved the Axanar and I posted suggestions...Robert I loved the Axanar and I posted suggestions. I know Marc Zicree whose SPACE COMMAND will have a 1950s pre-Trek feel.<br /><br />and now...<br /><br />onwadDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39255065675597466782015-07-27T17:31:03.839-07:002015-07-27T17:31:03.839-07:00I agree with Tacitus. (Not that surprising really....I agree with Tacitus. (Not that surprising really.)<br /><br />Thus I put forth as a topic of discussion for your next Blog post: Axanar.<br /><br />Critique and discuss Prelude to Axanar and the plans for the Axanar movie... what you like about it, what you feel they should have done differently, and what this bodes for future science fiction genre movies... not just for Star Trek, but possibly for series such as Babylon 5, Firefly/Serenity, Battlestar Galactica, and a multitude of others. <br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75557739768471554492015-07-27T17:27:06.499-07:002015-07-27T17:27:06.499-07:00David
You sir, are ranting.
I already mentioned ...David<br /><br />You sir, are ranting.<br /><br />I already mentioned two entirely plausible reasons why a 100% vote in any precinct outside of North Korea would be implausible. Human error and human weirdness. I was not accusing anyone of cheating. Just making a point that there are some local areas that are so blue as to be off in an area of the spectrum way beyond ultraviolet...and that these areas are also the epicenters of great social disruption. I specifically said that this was not the entire make up of the Democratic party.<br />Then you go on to ask questions about WI voting issues when I was addressing matters in Philadelphia. There were some similar wards in OH also.<br /><br />You next wander off in directions I am having a hard time parsing at all. <br /><br />I am expressing my opinion...that you sound mean spirited. I know that you are in fact, not. <br /><br />But you are using words somewhat carelessly. For an accomplished writer this is like a carpenter driving in crooked nails.<br /><br />And if you are actually feeling "sick, tired and disgusted" maybe visiting some new topics would do you some good. Politics seems painful to you and frankly it is not your best work.<br /><br />Tacitus<br />Tacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58615493855992245542015-07-27T17:09:35.157-07:002015-07-27T17:09:35.157-07:00Tacitus, can you name a single reason why anyone i...Tacitus, can you name a single reason why anyone in a racial and impoverished ward WOULD vote for Romney? If cheaters were fixing the vote, wouldn’t they have sniffed that 100% seems suspicious and dropped in 1% deliberately? What you’ve done is offer up an incantation. Since Republicans own both the WI state government AND the voting machine companies, the questions are:<br /><br />1- HOW could such cheating occur? And if it was local ballot stuffing, why not ask the Kochs for $ to hire more poll watchers?<br /><br />2- If it’s voting machines, do the ones in WI have paper audit trails? In CA each voter can see his or her receipt go into a box and randomly selected precincts are audited, and no one dares to tamper with the machines, then. Do you have that? Why not? Most blue states do it.<br /><br />3- that incantation is like this old saw: “Obama refused to even compromise on the ACA! Proof? Not one single republican voted for it!”<br /><br />Whaaaaaaa? Those two assertions are connected… how? Not one gopper voted for it because the GOP is the most tightly disciplined partisan machine in 150 years.<br /><br />Tacitus pleas, please PROVE that “Deep Blue voters have more STDs, premature births, etc than anybody else in this great land of ours.” That is utter, utter drivel. Are you going to narrow it down to impoverished ghettos and call THAT “deep blue” while leaving out the universities and better off urban areas? <br /><br />No, you may NOT call me “mean-spirited. I am, simply sick and tired and disgusted by bubba-aggression. By the relentless, endless, ceaseless drumbeat of “we are the REAL americans and far more moral than university/city folk!” Don’t you DARE try to claim that I started this.<br /><br />Indeed, most blue americans know nothing of the stats I have raised. It would never occur to them to use them. But EVERY redder you know has chanted the moral superiority myth – volubly – thousands of times. What’s more is, you know it.<br /><br />When Hannity and Huckabee and Limbaugh and Heritage stop their holier than thou drumbeat, I will stop refuting it.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-69700904228296554672015-07-27T16:59:30.404-07:002015-07-27T16:59:30.404-07:00Alex Tolley:
I can see robots as being an interes...Alex Tolley:<br /><i><br />I can see robots as being an interesting case of "otherness" - both desirable and something to be feared.<br /></i><br /><br />I recently re-read Vonnegut's 1953 novel "Player Piano" which made the case against replacing humans with machines in everything. One character said he hated machines because they were slaves. Another (rightly) pointed out that they were "slaves" who didn't mind working and weren't being abused in order to make them work. True, said the first guy, but they <b>compete</b> with human beings, and in order for human beings to compete with slaves, they must become slaves as well.<br /><br />60 years later, that's where we're headed.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20861939087528808302015-07-27T16:22:59.357-07:002015-07-27T16:22:59.357-07:00Treebeard:
Take a look at India/Pakistan for a re...Treebeard:<br /><i><br />Take a look at India/Pakistan for a reality check; people there have lived in close proximity for centuries and are genetically indistinguishable but hate each other as much as any two tribes on the planet.<br /></i><br /><br />And yet, look at Devon Street in Chicago some time, where Indian, Pakistani, and "Indo/Pak" shops exist side by side with no ill will evident whatsoever. Just sayin'LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14294602180493009472015-07-27T16:18:00.608-07:002015-07-27T16:18:00.608-07:00Paul SB:
But it's not uncommon for a writer t...Paul SB:<br /><i><br />But it's not uncommon for a writer to mix tropes, isn't it? So the Klingons have elements of Spaniard, something of a swashbuckling aspect, but filled a role in the fictive universe similar to Communist China, all projected into a distant future. Likewise the Romulans had an obvious Roman inspiration, but we first see them as analogs of Russian submarines sneaking around our territory with a dangerous new super weapon (can you say Cuban Missile Crisis?) <br /></i><br /><br />Alex Tolley:<br /><i><br />The Romulans were Chinese analogs. Recall that they hadn't been seen for a century, which was analogous to what happened to China under Mao.<br /></i><br /><br />You're doubtless both partly right, but there's no point claiming a definitive one-size-fits-all to the analogies. I don't see how anyone can doubt that the (TOS) Klingons look like Mongols, and that the Romulans, who hail from Romulus and Remus, and whose leader is "the preator" have some Roman in them.<br /><br />Nevertheless, the individual writers on individual episodes used the races to make their political points regardless of how well the characterization fit. So "The Enterprise Incident" was an allegory to the real life "Pueblo Incident", casting the Romulans as either Soviets or their proxies. While "A Private Little War" obviously casts the <b>Klingons</b> in the role of Soviets and the planets' natives as Vietnam. Not claiming any of this tells the whole story--just that it's not as simple as any one thing.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-38396930048942136952015-07-27T16:05:48.498-07:002015-07-27T16:05:48.498-07:00@Tacitus2 And the reality is that "Blue"...@Tacitus2 <i>And the reality is that "Blue" America is a biphasic entity. A well educated, orderly bunch on one side. Inner city dysfunction on the other. (some rural dysfunction too it must be said).</i><br /><br />That is a good point. The granularity that DB uses is likely too low. It is also contaminated by the gerrymandering that makes what should be blue states, red.<br /><br />Poverty and lack of education (sometimes state mandated inaccurate sex ed) are likely more correlated variables, which a multi-variate test could demonstrate. It has probably even been done somewhere.Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26716450519997566172015-07-27T16:05:05.212-07:002015-07-27T16:05:05.212-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5167138979142569402015-07-27T15:53:30.657-07:002015-07-27T15:53:30.657-07:00David
I was tinkering around the other day...tryi...David<br /><br />I was tinkering around the other day...trying to correlate those remarkable wards in Phillie where not a single vote was cast for Mitt Romney. Not one. Nary a mistaken click nor a man or woman with the courage or delusion to leap away from the herd. Zero.<br />I did some correlation with STD and teen pregnancy rates and I think I could "prove" to the satisfaction of most that Deep Blue voters have more STDs, premature births, etc than anybody else in this great land of ours.<br /><br />You know, but seldom go there, that the places you crow about as evidence of Red depravity are in fact mostly blue enclaves in Red states.<br /><br />Montgomery County AL btw voted 2:1 for Obama over Romney if you consider this a fact instead of...I believe you like the term anecdote for inconvenient data. If you looked at the city instead of the county it would be a bigger differential I suspect.<br /><br />http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/statesub.php?year=2012&fips=1101&f=0&off=0&elect=0<br /><br />Lets be really honest, shall we?<br /><br />A wide array of social ills - see above - are endemic in poor populations. Are they cause, effect or both?<br /><br />And the reality is that "Blue" America is a biphasic entity. A well educated, orderly bunch on one side. Inner city dysfunction on the other. (some rural dysfunction too it must be said).<br /><br />It is mean spirited to point out that poor people have cooties. But it is true. This is color independent.<br /><br />I have in the past given you free reign to point out that Red controlled states that don't appear to be trying that hard to help their "Blue" citizens ( or poor citizens generally I guess ) may not be doing a good job of being "their brother's keeper". <br /> <br />Granted.<br /><br />But you come across as petty to point out that struggling people of any political persuasion have more STDs. And arrests. And broken families.<br />We already know this.<br /><br />I detect no actual reluctance on your part to continue to hammer this point.<br /><br />Now, on another matter, there was a horrific attack on a Sikh Temple here in WI a few years back. A rare incident of actual right wing racist domestic terrorism. Until the more recent horror this stood out as a stark reminder that bad things happen even in this enlightened age. We have not had an epidemic of McVeighs but there are some out there, a fact that I hate.<br /><br />TacitusTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40759280593211538472015-07-27T15:42:52.251-07:002015-07-27T15:42:52.251-07:00We have a small community of Sikh here, as well as...We have a small community of Sikh here, as well as at least one Muslim family - in semi-rural Washington state. Not exactly a bustling metropolis, ya know?<br /><br />And so, as we can see, Newton's Law of Personal Stories holds - for every anecdote, there is an equal but opposite anecdote.Jonathan S.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68149138836808980152015-07-27T15:23:23.948-07:002015-07-27T15:23:23.948-07:00I could point out to our anonymous sniper that at ...<i>I could point out to our anonymous sniper that at least where I live, in the greater Los Angeles area, I see people wearing turbans all the time. </i><br /><br />I didn't see any obvious problems for Sikhs in Britain when I lived in London. There are a minority of Sikh students at the local UC campus and I have not seen or heard of any problems there either.<br /><br />Which isn't to say there are no problems, but I certainly have never put Sikhs outside my inclusiveness zone, nor am I aware of any of my friends doing so. More importantly, how do I persuade those who don't want to include Sikhs, to change their minds and do so. It seems to me that openness and familiarity are the best ways to do this. Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66515762466382619782015-07-27T15:13:47.028-07:002015-07-27T15:13:47.028-07:00Musk, Wozniak and Hawking urge ban on warfare AI a...<a href="http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jul/27/musk-wozniak-hawking-ban-ai-autonomous-weapons" rel="nofollow">Musk, Wozniak and Hawking urge ban on warfare AI and autonomous weapons</a><br /><br />I suspect it will be futile, but a case of life imitating art (Dune's Butlerian Jihad)?<br /><br />I can see robots as being an interesting case of "otherness" - both desirable and something to be feared. Military robots are likely to be merciless and without pity. Considerable collateral casualties of civilians is going to be an inevitable outcome once they are fully deployed. Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-50554714245026648012015-07-27T14:55:32.958-07:002015-07-27T14:55:32.958-07:00I could point out to our anonymous sniper that at ...I could point out to our anonymous sniper that at least where I live, in the greater Los Angeles area, I see people wearing turbans all the time. There is a Sikh temple less than 2 miles from my house, I have Pakistani neighbors next door, and I have yet to see any violence or even childish jeers. It would probably be pointless, though.<br /><br />Salam alaikumPaul SBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73390606728924682662015-07-27T14:51:59.111-07:002015-07-27T14:51:59.111-07:00Raito, you make some great points about how commun...Raito, you make some great points about how communication technology is affecting social identity. It reminded me of the cartoon that says, "On the internet, no one knows you're a dog." What you said about people choosing their own tribe is true to a certain extent. Some of us seem to have chosen the Brin tribe, though others are probably more multi-tribal and spend time interacting on other sites. However, the idea has its limits. On the street, I can't do much to hide several demographic factors that build identity in society. I'm pretty clearly male, post-middle aged, and no matter how long I hang out on the beach flirting with skin cancer, few would mistake me for anything else but Caucasian. Still, there are aspects of tribe that we all choose, at least to some extent, and aspects that cannot be determined at a glance. My career, ethnic origin, major hobbies or other activity-based social groups, religion or any other thing that people build communities around. Still, you are right that modern communication technology allows us a level of flexibility not really possible before.<br /><br />Now my mind is ruminating on a Tribe Brin T-shirt. It would have to have space dolphins on it, at least.Paul SBnoreply@blogger.com