tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post1622463627518092887..comments2024-03-28T04:58:13.341-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Citizens May Now Record Encounters With PoliceDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger119125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53987333031135226422011-09-09T11:50:36.929-07:002011-09-09T11:50:36.929-07:00Paul451,
You are right about paper vs. electroni...Paul451, <br /><br />You are right about paper vs. electronic voting. It's simply too easy and always possible to massively subvert any computer related voting system.<br /><br />By trade, I am a computer System Administrator.gmknoblhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12463680561757459885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-91797512520260460222011-09-09T11:47:26.993-07:002011-09-09T11:47:26.993-07:00If anyone dismisses Keynesian economics, then they...If anyone dismisses Keynesian economics, then they dismiss that which has verifiably worked in the past and specifically that which worked during our most similar economic times historically, the Great Depression.<br /><br />To do so is foolishness in the extreme.gmknoblhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12463680561757459885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-54498927667289619542011-09-08T00:05:22.583-07:002011-09-08T00:05:22.583-07:00Paul's Jedi Sith sceneario is way cool...
onw...Paul's Jedi Sith sceneario is way cool...<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22790373255153511582011-09-07T22:59:48.334-07:002011-09-07T22:59:48.334-07:00Someone losing their key (ie password) or having i...Someone losing their key (ie password) or having it stolen is akin to someone at a polling station falsely claiming to live at your address (or forgetting it).<br /><br />Verification, when necessary, involves using other information.<br /><br />ACT uses <a href="http://www.softimp.com.au/evacs/index.html" rel="nofollow">eVacs</a> system.<br /><br />This uses dedicated PCs rather than the public internet, something I would like to see. Ah, well.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70324203237543133262011-09-07T22:41:02.313-07:002011-09-07T22:41:02.313-07:00"In your hypothetical e-system, there's n..."In your hypothetical e-system, there's no way to..."<br /><br />I haven't presented an actual hypothetical system yet. I've spoken about aspects of Internet Voting done right using Verifiable Voting. The quote ended in a system that wasn't verifiable. It is obviously not a system I'd support.<br /><br />I'll do up a google doc with an actual proposal.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03773076186367856200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1934976980214740132011-09-07T22:31:13.672-07:002011-09-07T22:31:13.672-07:00Hi Rob H.,
The Fifth Amendment is meant to protec...Hi Rob H.,<br /><br />The Fifth Amendment is meant to protect citizens from coercion or their own mistakes.<br /><br />It is entirely appropriate to ask for a Lawyer to assist you in phrasing a response to law enforcement. They are specialized labor knowledgeable of and skilled at avoiding unintended consequences (like a confession).<br /><br />The 'all you need is one little mistake' is balderdash. The number of innocent people in jail are largely due to bias, corruption, or foolish behavior on the part of the falsely incarcerated. <br /><br />Assuming innocence, the smart move is to ask for a Lawyer and then work with them to assist law enforcement without unintended consequences. Assuming guilt, the smart move is to be uncooperative and hope law enforcement fails at their responsibilities.<br /><br />The 'It doesn't matter if you're not guilty' is offensive. Do you really think that the cops are out to get anyone they can pin it on so they look good? If they genuinely suspect you, then it is imperative that you assist them in finding the actual guilty party. Circumstance likely made you a suspect. The shared circumstance with the actual law breaker makes you an excellent candidate to have useful information. <br /><br />Law enforcement don't get gut feelings about you if you are polite and helpful. Look, I'm a clean cut white male so my outlook is likely to be shaped differently than those subjected to stereotypes. However, I'm certain my techniques are going to help an innocence more than acting as they advised.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03773076186367856200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46686626341394672032011-09-07T22:22:26.813-07:002011-09-07T22:22:26.813-07:00Very comprehensive and useful post you have shared...Very comprehensive and useful post you have shared and being a student of political science i think now a days the politics of the world is worst then Roman and Greece's politics because then governments think about the future of the world and try to serve the people, state was like a mom and act like a mother, but now days we can't see this kind of service by state anywhere in the world.custom logo designhttp://www.kooldesignmaker.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81823412371148334812011-09-07T22:11:29.635-07:002011-09-07T22:11:29.635-07:00Jacob,
"I'm not comfortable with my own q...Jacob,<br /><i>"I'm not comfortable with my own question."</i><br /><br />Those are the best topics.<br /><br />Re: Incentive to vote vs. selling votes.<br /><br />With the secret ballot, there's no way to tell which voters sold their votes honestly. You have to buy them all, and they can take your money and still vote for the other guy. (The tragedy of the commons, used <i>against</i> corruption.)<br /><br />Re: Fraud on paper vs. fraud online.<br /><br />It's <i>hard</i> to defraud a paper election by more than a couple of percent without obvious signs. OTOH, defrauding an electronic ballot is just software.<br /><br />In your hypothetical e-system, there's no way to confirm any connection between what comes up when you put in your VoterID, and what registers on the final count.<br /><br />And when looking at actually e-voting systems, they've never worked like their original proponents claimed.<br /><br />Re: Delegate/proxy voting.<br /><br />I assume you've heard of the idea of demarchy? Random government. Choosing legislators like you choose jurors. (Used by Venice at the peak of its stability and power. Chosen to reduce the risk of one powerful family seizing control, but it also eliminated factionalism, allowing Venice to prosper for a millennium.)<br /><br /><br />Next post...Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85283284203822578372011-09-07T22:02:46.866-07:002011-09-07T22:02:46.866-07:00Hi Tony,
~ is signed by the voter and electoral a...Hi Tony,<br /><br />~ is signed by the voter and electoral authority when it is entered.~ Does actually mean the user submitted encryption key? Or, is this more a verifiable voting system where you have to vote in person? (In other words, no remoting.)<br /><br />As a case to consider. Suppose I lose or have my encryption key stolen. If another finds it, how would I get the electoral authority to invalidate the old and replace it with a new one. (Most of the answers for this seem to undermine the reason for voter submitted encryption keys.<br /><br />Verifiable Voting is an admirable goal. In order to accomplish it, I think we'll need some value added to the existing system to attract support.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03773076186367856200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-65166051028853540462011-09-07T21:42:18.245-07:002011-09-07T21:42:18.245-07:00My take for online voting is here
Votes are store...My take for online voting is <a href="http://castinglight.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">here</a><br /><br />Votes are stored with a key, a value, and a validity flag (ie last vote in)<br />Voter can check their voting log (and perhaps 'correct' their entry should that patriarch misinterpret their intentions)<br /><br />The vote is signed by voter and electoral authority when it is entered.<br /><br />The vote is linked to the voter by an encrypted form of the voter's id (encrypted by the voter)<br /><br />Anyone can read and add the votes, and validate them (using the electoral authority's public key)<br /><br />Only the voter can review their own vote(s).<br /><br />Conceptually, it works for me. I could be missing something.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-88629632438544705752011-09-07T20:53:00.147-07:002011-09-07T20:53:00.147-07:00The Fifth Amendment is meant to protect all citize...The Fifth Amendment is meant to protect all citizens. Both innocent and guilty. Thus pleading the Fifth is not wrong.<br /><br />Think of one of the things the cop said: you have two strikes against you when you go to court. First, you are sitting next to an attorney, which means your peers already associate you with a criminal, even if you're not. (And going without a lawyer is completely foolhardy.) Second, you have cops, who are professional witnesses, going against you. All you need is one little mistake and you're damned.<br /><br />There are a number of innocent people in jail. Who knows how many of them would be in jail if they didn't let the police pressure them into admitting they are guilty. And don't forget: the cops WANT to find someone guilty. It doesn't matter if you're not guilty. If they suspect you're the guilty party they will push and push and push until you fit into that round hole, despite your square corners. <br /><br />It's human nature. People don't like to admit they're wrong. Police are no different in this regard, and have been known to ignore evidence proving someone innocent because their gut feeling is that this person is guilty. If that person they think is guilty is you? Then if you give them any leeway, you go to jail despite your innocence.<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-16176685366806858512011-09-07T20:13:33.885-07:002011-09-07T20:13:33.885-07:00Hi Rob H.,
I found that video disgusting. It isn...Hi Rob H.,<br /><br />I found that video disgusting. It isn't valid either. We have options.<br /><br />He asserts... Talk leads to possible harm; therefore, do not Talk.<br /><br />How about an alternative....<br />Talk leads to possible harm; therefore, consider carefully what you say.<br /><br />His counter example was also extremely poor. Firstly he was arguing that Innocent people should plead the 5th. Where as the former policeman was arguing Guilty people should plead the 5th. Obviously not the same. Also, I'd like to note that the policeman was a student in the teachers class. He was motivated to support the teacher and cannot be considered an unbiased counter.<br /><br />You came to the wrong conclusion if you believe that people should plead the 5th. Note that when the teacher brought up the slide with the Supreme Court's ruling it specifically said >in ambiguous circumstances.< If the teachers advice was... "If uncertain of the correct response, plead the 5th." then I could accept it.<br /><br />The guy is sleaze.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03773076186367856200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-28018943965897855672011-09-07T20:04:29.985-07:002011-09-07T20:04:29.985-07:00Hi Paul451,
It does have high abuse potential. A...Hi Paul451,<br /><br />It does have high abuse potential. Although I have a basic question, >if someone is incentivized to vote a certain way, is that an abuse?< Paying for a vote certainly seems wrong. But its just more obvious that poor people voting for Democrats and wealthy people voting for Republicans. Assumed benefits vs direct benefits. <br /><br />I'm not comfortable with my own question. I'm certainly not making a judgement.<br /><br />------<br /><br />The count assumes that corruption hasn't changed the inputs. It is a reasonable assumption, but not a certain one. I have worked elections. I know several areas where fraud can happen within our current system.<br /><br />Internet voting on the other hand, as a subset of Transparent voting is Verifiable. My (mostly) anonymous voting number is registered as voting for X, Y, Z. At any point, I can go back to see that it wasn't manipulated. In extreme cases, investigators could track votes back to the voter to confirm it. Privacy can be maintained.<br /><br />-----<br /><br />Above you considered abuse by force or coercion by other means. That can currently be done by Absentee voting. My specific plan for internet voting as ways for a victim to escape that coercion without appearing to do so to the oppressor. To be fair, that solution is also viable in the current system as well.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03773076186367856200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-488081664838100822011-09-07T19:47:53.052-07:002011-09-07T19:47:53.052-07:00Off-topic, but interesting research on Porpoise sp...Off-topic, but interesting research on Porpoise speech:<br />http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=22650<br />The mechanics of sound production is analogous to ours, which says nothing about content (Not as we have much to be proud of in our speech, with an election year looming ;>).Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-54289489909749692852011-09-07T18:24:56.193-07:002011-09-07T18:24:56.193-07:00Corey & co,
Re: Jedi breeding themselves out.
...Corey & co,<br />Re: Jedi breeding themselves out.<br /><br />Would have made a more interesting back story for the prequels. Someone discovers a Force-using animal on some planet, engineers a cross-species Force-gene retrovirus, causing some percentage of children to develop magic power. Cue chaos.<br /><br />The Jedi, an existing order of fighting-monks, are able to turn their previously non-magical disciplines into a training method for the magical children, setting them to protect the galaxy from "wild" magic. However, they quickly realise that the temptation to take control from Muggles is too great, so they decide to breed themselves out of existence. This decision splits the order, the Sith being the breakaway group.<br /><br />And so the battle between Light and Dark isn't just good vs evil; the anti-Jedi are fighting for the very survival of their kind, while the Jedi are committing murder-suicide to prevent both chaos and enslavement.<br /><br />(lorpic: Backstory biopic.)Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73135590170224976632011-09-07T18:09:02.178-07:002011-09-07T18:09:02.178-07:00Jacob,
Re: Recursive proxies.
Neat idea. The abus...Jacob,<br />Re: Recursive proxies.<br /><br />Neat idea. The abuse potential(*) is high. But the novelty appeals to me.<br /><br />(*In Russia, employers apparently demand employees apply for postal ballots and fill them out in front of the boss. Some... traditional... family patriarchs are reported to do the same thing here in Oz. One could imagine strong arm tactics used during the peak of the union era if proxy voting existed.)<br /><br />Hmmm, what if the recipient of the proxy can't find out how many extra votes, if any, they hold?<br /><br /><i>"There is no real way to audit/verify our current system."</i><br /><br />By auditing, I mean of the count. With electronic voting you get a number, and you just have to trust it. With paper, observers can go through it as many times as you want, challenge it in any appropriate court, etc.<br /><br />David,<br /><i>"I am wondering what has happened to any awareness of [...] Diebold."</i><br /><br />They changed their name to Premier Election Systems. And the media... Squirrel!<br /><br />Re: Bystander armed response<br />Whether or not there has been one or two such successful armed bystander responses, don't concealed carry permit holders at a minimum need to save more people than they kill? (Which over four years is 19 mass shootings, 27 murder-suicides, and 11 cop killings.)Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-82067120250162051962011-09-07T17:22:01.628-07:002011-09-07T17:22:01.628-07:00On a tangential note: I've got the URL to an i...On a tangential note: I've got the URL to an interesting (if long) video by a law professor and a police officer on why you should never talk to police. Always take your Fifth Amendment Right. Always. Especially if you're innocent. Because anything you say can and will be used against you... and police are not allowed to speak FOR you (as it's hearsay).<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=player_embedded<br /><br />It's a fascinating and somewhat disturbing video (disturbing in terms of what it says about law enforcement and this nation of ours, which was founded on the theory of liberty and freedom).<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80292977995069820292011-09-07T15:45:12.730-07:002011-09-07T15:45:12.730-07:00 I am always interested in carefully reading the v... I am always interested in carefully reading the varied arguments. Though I saw little original here.<br /><br />Look this ain't science, which means that "sides" very quickly settle into rationalized incantations that they consider more than sufficient to think themselves smart and their opponents imbeciles. The left does it too.<br /><br />What interests me more is credibility. Supply siders have had their demanded experiments, over and over and over again, without a single confident prediction ever ever coming true. While the Keynsians have their problems, their record is vastly better. <br /><br />Point two. We were paying down debt under Clinton. The middle class - in polls - rejected taking the surplus back in tax cuts. They wanted debt paydown forever and devastatingly disproving the "vote themselves largesse" cynical slander we've heard all our lives. An utter libel and lie. <br /><br />The ones demanding "our money back" were the dividend and capital gains caste that Adam Smith personally despised. Follow the money behind most of these flat-tax and other "institutes" and it all comes down to billionaire ingrates hiring people to concoct more incantations for how a hardworking secretary should pay higher tax rates than he does.<br /><br />Point three... The difference between 1996 and today is not government spending. (non-war). Which has been flat. It has been two multi-trillion dollar wars that featured at least half a trillion dollars of graft to Bush family friends... plus the post 1996 tax cuts for the wealthy. That is flat-out cause and effect and incantations won't change it.<br /><br />Hence the need for all-out war against all the knowledge castes who care about cause and effect.<br /><br />No more time. Anyone who studies history and does not recognize this kind of event from a thousand past cases hasn't been paying attention.<br /><br />In 1789, Louis XVI called the Estates General ... the nobles, clergy and middle class (the peasants weren't invited) to get the state out of a major financial bind. The middle class, though angry, was willing to help. The rich and the radical religious crowd shouted "no way you are ever gonna tax us!"<br /><br />If our plutocrats were smart people and well-read, they would know what happened a year later. They would think about pushing us to the brink. They would listen to the smartest member of their caste: Warren Buffett.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12445167074827247822011-09-07T15:05:55.320-07:002011-09-07T15:05:55.320-07:00@Doctors Tacitus and Brin:
Is it fair to say that...@Doctors Tacitus and Brin:<br /><br />Is it fair to say that none of the participants in tonight's GOP debate are "conservative" in the sense that Tacitus describes?<br /><br />===<br /><br />Historical note: Richard Nixon imposed wage-and-price controls in August 1971. His heirs talk openly of dismantling the minimum wage. Who's conservative?rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90002170492074016722011-09-07T14:40:00.474-07:002011-09-07T14:40:00.474-07:00Actually, the older meaning of liberal... which I ...Actually, the older meaning of liberal... which I hereby revive... includes a love of market competition as the First Liberal Adam Smith pushed. Helping people SO THAT their children can compete.<br /><br />As evidence by the fact that the economy and small businesses do better under dems.<br /><br />but enough. Carl just linked me to this: http://www.eppc.org/publications/pubID.2292/pub_detail.asp<br /><br />http://www.eppc.org/publications/<br />pubID.2292/pub_detail.asp<br /><br />I'll copy you all my response.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-42465985915602192872011-09-07T14:11:18.766-07:002011-09-07T14:11:18.766-07:00I see no negative connotations to the word Liberal...I see no negative connotations to the word Liberal. It is a synonym for generous. And indeed, when times are prosperous liberality is only fair. It gets a little more difficult in times of austerity, when favoring one group means taking from another.<br /><br />A big difference of opinion, and one not easily resolved, is whether these are in fact such austere times.<br /><br /><br />Few conservatives really dislike generosity and progress, or by extention, Liberals and Progressives. There is a sense that they are misguided, perhaps hypocritical, sometimes smug. (not you LarryH!). But still fellow citizens with an important perspective.<br /><br />And David, regards the darker political futures...you and I equally hope you are wrong.<br /><br />TacitusTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55087187322636618372011-09-07T13:31:14.701-07:002011-09-07T13:31:14.701-07:00Diebold is not Transparent Voting. Internet votin...Diebold is not Transparent Voting. Internet voting needs to be Transparent to be used at all. It isn't overly difficult to keep it private and transparent.Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03773076186367856200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84918941399561062332011-09-07T12:25:44.076-07:002011-09-07T12:25:44.076-07:00The bystander at the iHop shooting claims that he ...The bystander at the iHop shooting claims that he "almost" took on the mad shooter. Fine, I will take him at his word. And someday I suppose a mad mass shooter will be brought down by an armed... rather than the usual unarmed... bystander. It'll happen.<br /><br />I just don't see it being a factor so far, in blatant diametric opposition to rt wing rhetoric.<br /><br />Corey is right about the Jedi... but I am sure that excuses are made in some of the novelizations. The novelizers have tried for decades to rationalize or explain or excuse the insipid drivel that George Lucas tossed off as a "Grand Epic Legend" and a peerless example of world-building.<br /><br />Note that Jedi aren't forbidden to have sex... only to marry or love or feel the slightest commitment or attachment. What an excuse for randy, irresponsible males! "I'd love to hang around, but my religion and duty to the galaxy require me to bed you and then leave you at once. Sorry."<br /><br />Re voting... I am wondering what has happened to any awareness of the greatest threat to democracy. Diebold.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41162636081443592402011-09-07T10:28:05.093-07:002011-09-07T10:28:05.093-07:00Jacob:
I prefer to believe that local Oligarchy a...Jacob:<br /><i><br />I prefer to believe that local Oligarchy are just buying into the theory that helping themselves is the best way to help society. <br /></i><br /><br />Some probably do. "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA, and what's good for the USA is good for General Motors" used to have a lot of truth to it.<br /><br />"What's good for Haliburton...", not so much.<br /><br />Maybe I'm just romanticizing, but the JP Morgan-era wealthy and powerful really did seem to think they deserved privildge because they really were the ones who knew best how to run things for everyone.<br /><br />The current crop seems to think that they deserve to further enrich themselves to the detriment of everyone else.<br /><br />It's the difference between "A rising tide lifts all boats" and "I own the water--how dare you float YOUR boat on it?"<br /><br /><i><br />At least some of them have to like America.<br /></i><br /><br />Unfortunately, too many seem to "like America" in the same sense that you might like a steak dinner.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19560314898802794122011-09-07T10:19:59.782-07:002011-09-07T10:19:59.782-07:00Dr Brin:
Please understand that very few of your ...Dr Brin:<br /><i><br />Please understand that very few of your pals here are leftists. I have long ago offended most of those! Or else some of the guys have either accepted my "1947" distinction between liberals and lefties... or else they have learned to stay mum about their lefty sympathies!<br /></i><br /><br />I'm a pretty outspoken progressive round these parts, one who is not ashamed of the term "liberal". And I would never describe myself (or even think of myself) as a leftist.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.com