tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post156440638373314079..comments2024-03-18T21:52:45.757-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: We can't own informationDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger67125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30723573828428668922018-12-12T02:06:43.193-08:002018-12-12T02:06:43.193-08:00\\In most societies, both logic and faith were use...\\In most societies, both logic and faith were used as catechisms to rationalize and justify autocratic rule and oppression. It was just another way to wallow in self-justifying delusion.<br /><br />Not sure.<br />Politics use catchphrazes, not logical inference.<br />upd\\And use "ad baculum" in case you are trying to argue logicaly, to show falacies in their words.<br />Be it in form of guillotina, Gulag or just court trials against bunch of lawyers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49806213054672242062018-12-12T01:52:14.458-08:002018-12-12T01:52:14.458-08:00David Brin said...
\\There is no contradiction in...David Brin said...<br /><br />\\There is no contradiction in the fact that the Leninists styled themselves as "logical" and yet governed abysmally. <br /><br />Its just logically. They violated rules of logic. "From False can follow anything".<br />And this "anything" was perpetum mobile for all existence of USSR.<br /><br />The False is "labor theory of value".<br /><br />And... there was NO "leninists"... after Stalin eliminated ones who can rightfully call so themself. %) He was the last one. %\<br /><br /><br />\\"Logic is just like imagination -- an excellent hypothesis-generator. Logic can also (carefully) serve as a sift for eliminating the worst hypotheses.<br /><br />"Logic is just a schema" -- I'd said. (claim no credits on it)<br />So its plain wrong to attribute it to something beyond "just schema".<br /><br /><br />\\But logic does not PROVE positive assertions, especially in the real and complex world. <br /><br />Why not?<br />Its just well known observation -- its too hard to maintain and process usefull in practice chain of logical inference...<br /><br /><br />\\In most societies, both logic and faith were used as catechisms to rationalize and justify autocratic rule and oppression. It was just another way to wallow in self-justifying delusion.<br /><br />Not sure.<br />Politics use catchphrazes, not logical inference.<br /><br /><br />\\Dang. Shiva played by Arnold S?<br /><br />Yeap. %) Shuwa-tan (as japanese playfully call him) in his earlies. %)<br /><br />But I myself think that Jeckie Chan would be better in that role. %PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8393371593953629602018-12-12T01:08:29.218-08:002018-12-12T01:08:29.218-08:00>> Mike Will said...
Thank you. I appreciat...>> Mike Will said...<br /><br />Thank you. I appreciate it much.<br /><br /><br />\\you'll find a lot of gold.<br /><br />Have no doubts... but saddly enough, mining gold is still too expensive.<br />So, I have a thought -- what if there'd be a way, a place where all gold of the world could be combined... (some kind of social network? semantic net? mind map?)<br /><br /><br />\\Intelligence (language, social history). has been achieved only once that we know of - hominids on Earth.<br /><br />Than you may benefit from Stanislav Lem's insight here -- that human language its might be the same kind phenomen as "language" of DNA .<br />Shamelessly advertise here his "Golem XIV" where all such ideas was artfully presented. (because his unparalleled "Summa technologiae" are too hard in compare)<br /><br /><br />\\It's really just a gradient applied to processes, not some deep 'meaning of the universe' concept.<br /><br />Big YES... and small no.<br />No, because our Universe is discrete in nature... so we could not know -- is it some deeper meaning behind it or no? (while in continuum based universe we could check the gradient)<br /><br /><br />\\This latter one has caught my interest of late, such as teasing out potential physical laws or informational relationships by computation and simulation.<br /><br />Thumb up! Notion articulated by Lem in many of his writings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-71674762358679499262018-12-11T14:47:43.085-08:002018-12-11T14:47:43.085-08:00onward
onwardonward<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70144223092231514092018-12-11T14:24:43.513-08:002018-12-11T14:24:43.513-08:00Gotta love the snark from my girlfriend, Nancy Pel...Gotta love the snark from my girlfriend, Nancy Pelosi:<br /><br />https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/11/us/politics/takeaways-trump-pelosi-schumer.html<br /><i><br />After she returned to Capitol Hill, Ms. Pelosi said that for Mr. Trump, the wall was “like a manhood thing for him.<br /><br />“As if manhood could ever be associated with him,” she said.<br /></i><br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73882735667146744482018-12-11T13:57:36.086-08:002018-12-11T13:57:36.086-08:00Sure it works in practice, but will it work in the...Sure it works in practice, but will it work in theory?<br />- French jokeMike Willhttp://www.scidata.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48100738023614783722018-12-11T13:43:07.363-08:002018-12-11T13:43:07.363-08:00Dr Brin:
But logic does not PROVE positive assert...Dr Brin:<br /><i><br />But logic does not PROVE positive assertions, especially in the real and complex world.<br /></i><br /><br />Logic is a good way to get from point A to point Z by way of points B, C, D, etc. It does not tell you that point Z is more desirable than point A in the first place. It's the argument I kept having with a guy whose posts I don't read anymore--he insists that "You should do..." is a nonsense statement because it can't be proven. Whereas I claim that "You should do..." makes perfect sense, but only and always when paired with, "...if your goal is...".<br /><br />There's also that pesky (but accurate) quote attributed to Yogi Berra:<br /><i><br />In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there <b>is</b>.<br /></i><br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53054059464870474522018-12-11T13:27:51.191-08:002018-12-11T13:27:51.191-08:00Re- AI
At worst a rogue AI would want to rule us
...Re- AI<br /><br />At worst a rogue AI would want to rule us<br /><br />Humans are simply necessary to provide the interface between "intelligence" and the physical world<br />The "Robot" that can replace a human is a LOT further away than AI - and one that can do that for an affordable amount is even furtherduncan cairncrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153725128216947145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84815379939259151332018-12-11T12:37:15.997-08:002018-12-11T12:37:15.997-08:00Organizing your data in logical fashion, and think...Organizing your data in logical fashion, and thinking about it as clearly as you can, are important to analyzing the data - but in the absence of data, all you're engaging in is philosophical masturbation, unconnected to reality in any meaningful way.<br /><br />Thus, all the people with Frankenstein Syndrome, whose "data" consist largely of pop-fiction stories about the horrors of AI and robots (most recently embodied by all those who see footage of the Big Dog series from Boston Dynamics, and can only envision that episode of <i>Black Mirror</i> with the killer robot, not the physically-disabled person who is no longer dependent on another person to open doors or get things off of shelves for them). They're hypothesizing in an utter absence of data, and confusing their worst fears for the "logical" consequences of a procedure that has never happened yet.<br /><br />(Of course, they should also bear in mind that in the original tale of Frankenstein, the monster was not created as a being with ill intent; rather, the treatment it experienced at the hands of humans terrified of it, particularly its creator, left it desiring revenge against the doctor for doing this to it. Perhaps automatically fearing AI is the worst thing we could do...)Jon S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13585842845661267920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45081604488703965812018-12-11T12:16:06.381-08:002018-12-11T12:16:06.381-08:00Dang. Shiva played by Arnold S?Dang. Shiva played by Arnold S?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40278380974142175602018-12-11T11:59:51.751-08:002018-12-11T11:59:51.751-08:00There is no contradiction in the fact that the Len...There is no contradiction in the fact that the Leninists styled themselves as "logical" and yet governed abysmally. "Logic is just like imagination -- an excellent hypothesis-generator. Logic can also (carefully) serve as a sift for eliminating the worst hypotheses.<br /><br />But logic does not PROVE positive assertions, especially in the real and complex world. In most societies, both logic and faith were used as catechisms to rationalize and justify autocratic rule and oppression. It was just another way to wallow in self-justifying delusion.<br /><br />Only in those societies that instituted competitive , evidence-based pragmatism did humanity every take off, rising above delusion. Periclean Athens, Renaissance Florence, and our own cyclically improving Burst all show the power of reciprocal criticism to pierce beloved delusions and allow synergistic recombinations to combine truths and refute errors, creating positive sum outcomes.<br /><br />Plato railed at the Pericleans and declared that he could logically derive truth. Bah. Give me Michael Faraday. Ben Franklin. And a social contract that subjected even them to endless pokes and jabs from critics.<br /><br />It is the Dance of Shiva. We destroy what was (previous paradigms and accepted "truths," by showing they were "only"95% correct. Take that!. And as Shiva dances away, there rises from the ashes something that's 97% correct! And Shiva smiles and say's "I'll be back."<br /><br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-52612898822628427592018-12-11T07:38:49.658-08:002018-12-11T07:38:49.658-08:00I hesitate to put links to my own writing in someo...I hesitate to put links to my own writing in someone else's blog, especially when it belongs to someone I respect as much as Dr. Brin. If you dig through his many, many posts going way back, you'll find a lot of gold. In addition, most of my thinking is wound up in "Foundation" and psychohistory, which puts me way deep behind David's shadow.<br /><br />Here is my 30,000 foot view:<br />Intelligence (language, social history). has been achieved only once that we know of - hominids on Earth. This was an interesting branch of evolution, but certainly not the 'culmination'; evolution is ongoing, in all life forms, be they simple or complex. Evolution works away on all things, living or not. It's really just a gradient applied to processes, not some deep 'meaning of the universe' concept.<br />We can augment evolution to our own needs. Examples are animal husbandry and agriculture. Another example is AI --> AGI. Biological evolution is nifty, but glacial. The last century or two has shown that information technology can speed up this process *significantly*. There are many ways to do this. Neural networks are a brute-force attempt. A more 'natural' way is agent-based (also called multi-agent) systems. Another way is to artificially recreate a brain, even if you don't fully understand its workings. Another way is to search nature for clues and shortcuts using our technology. This latter one has caught my interest of late, such as teasing out potential physical laws or informational relationships by computation and simulation.<br />Eg https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612358/an-ai-physicist-can-derive-the-natural-laws-of-imagined-universes/<br />But this is Dr. Brin's blog, not mine, and I have little interest in convincing, defending, or building a following - it's all just too much work.<br /><br /><br /><br />Mike Willhttp://www.scidata.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39979009234526235452018-12-11T07:03:52.607-08:002018-12-11T07:03:52.607-08:00\\I also think that AGI will arrive by evolution, ...\\I also think that AGI will arrive by evolution, not design.<br /><br />Than we have nothing to debate.<br /><br />And maybe... can humbly share views on evolutional ways of AI ;)<br /><br />\\Many aren't that kind :)<br /><br />Most of piople are plain idiots. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80828434171037131492018-12-11T06:34:26.490-08:002018-12-11T06:34:26.490-08:00"And what it'll help in real world proble..."And what it'll help in real world problem solving?"<br />Yup. Getting physics correct is kind of important.<br /><br /><br />"Like choose what gov. politic to support."<br />Yup. I think Ampère was on the right track with his "Cybernetiques"<br /><br /><br />"How to meet deadline with limited resources."<br />Yup. There's little that impedes efficiency like delusional human bias.<br /><br /><br />"Or how to talk and come to agreement with people..."<br />Yup. Starting from a common context and applying rationalism and computational thinking would be helpful.<br /><br /><br />"Are you have developed and complete enough Theory of AI?"<br />That's a great question. I'm from a time before deep learning started churning away on ponderous heaps of data. I think that a real, 'neurological' theory of AI would be truly useful. Others agree and have been working on this for a long time (eg Numenta). Having said that, I also think that AGI will arrive by evolution, not design.<br /><br /><br />I'm glad you think I spout 'truisms'. Many aren't that kind :)<br /><br />Mike Willhttp://www.scidata.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11609560723747115422018-12-11T05:46:06.152-08:002018-12-11T05:46:06.152-08:00>> Mike Will said...
Thank you for your att...>> Mike Will said...<br /><br />Thank you for your attention.<br /><br /><br />\\Study Mach vs Planck. (Einstein's evolving view on Relativity is helpful)<br /><br />And what it'll help in real world problem solving?<br />Like choose what gov. politic to support.<br />How to meet deadline with limited resources.<br />Or how to talk and come to agreement with people... (that last is most important by far... as we now talking -- can we agree on something?)<br /><br />\\Study Plato vs Socrates (yes, I said 'versus')<br /><br />Very enticing... but hardly usefull...<br /><br /><br />\\Be aware that AGI will not care about your 'isms' or 'ists', it will simply do science, "Too complex" will not be a barrier. <br /><br />How could you be so sure? %)<br /><br />Are you have developed and complete enough Theory of AI?<br /><br />For now... our understanding of it... akin to medival superstitions like<br />"Mandragora is sprouting under dead man hanging"<br />or more like<br />"Flogiston is immaterial substance which embody heat by itself".<br /><br />Yeah... we till now think that that "intellect" is something we can squize out from raw data... and then make it potent with help of some kinda philosophical stone. %)<br />And Voila!<br /><br /><br />PS All other is just truism. Need no comments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85967115521758605162018-12-11T03:20:03.262-08:002018-12-11T03:20:03.262-08:00"Because I myself positivist."
Study Ma..."Because I myself positivist."<br /><br />Study Mach vs Planck. (Einstein's evolving view on Relativity is helpful)<br />Study Plato vs Socrates (yes, I said 'versus')<br /><br />Be aware that AGI will not care about your 'isms' or 'ists', it will simply do science, "Too complex" will not be a barrier. The universe is a domain of computation and evolution. Math, symbols, sensory experience, 'isms', and similar tools enable a 3-pound hominid brain to hold a vastly simplified <b>model</b> of reality. Our quaint notions have the limitation of fitting within the human cranium. This is why I often compare us to ants when describing AGI.Mike Willhttp://www.scidata.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-10611793402657723372018-12-11T02:09:18.945-08:002018-12-11T02:09:18.945-08:00Carl M. said...
\\and found Rooskies under every d...Carl M. said...<br />\\and found Rooskies under every desk.<br /><br />Pardon my idle interest.<br />But if you dislike "Rooskies under every desk" (peculiar thing, why "Rooskie"(only 27k by Google) not Russians?)<br />so much,<br />so how'd you like <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag" rel="nofollow">Gulag</a>?<br /><br />If you don't know, its a place where all different libertarians, physicists and other smart-asses of "1/6th of sushi" ended their days.<br />Akin to China during "Cultural Revolution" or Kamboja under Pol Pot...<br />but not that nicely.<br /><br />Death from Sibirsky Moroz is not on the "Plain and Simple, Easy ways of death" list.<br /><br />Same way as death from starvation during Golodomor.<br /><br />Same way as death from radioactivity... because of Chernobyl or numerous dirty Nuke Trials.<br /><br />Etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45699592906950142402018-12-11T01:09:29.665-08:002018-12-11T01:09:29.665-08:00Mike Will said...
\\Scientific rationalism is a go...Mike Will said...<br />\\Scientific rationalism is a good solution. <br />\\advocating for a wider embrace of scientific literacy.<br /><br />Sorry to disappoint you... I strongly dislike to do this.<br />Because I myself positivist.<br />But "Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas".<br /><br />I'm from country ("smart" cage for countries) where THAT was government politic from the very beginning -- USSR.<br />Religion was banished. Science proclaimed to be something like official religion.<br /><br />But it helped nothing.<br /><br />It was historical argument.<br /><br />And here is pragmatical.<br /><br />Science -- is TOO complex. And changes constantly.<br />So make it serve as some ethic standard -- is no good idea.<br />As for science itself as for socium that used it that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26790864077628694042018-12-10T21:56:55.522-08:002018-12-10T21:56:55.522-08:00"create funny television series with the them..."create funny television series with the theme of interracial marriages"<br /><br />This has been a staple for 20 years and in the last ten it has filled advertisements and commercials.<br /><br />"Did you know that a Japanese scientist said that the Japanese are in danger of extinction due to the massive use of sex dolls?"<br /><br />Well it's the women who are choosing.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72945808159250808222018-12-10T20:41:22.105-08:002018-12-10T20:41:22.105-08:00Thank you. And, really, I believe that we must mot...Thank you. And, really, I believe that we must motivate and favor the mixture of races, to put an end to racism. It is feasible to create laws that offer more generous credits for the acquisition of a house for interracial marriages. I would propose to create funny television series with the theme of interracial marriages, to make the idea popular, but those television series already exist.<br />Did you know that a Japanese scientist said that the Japanese are in danger of extinction due to the massive use of sex dolls? I guess this is an indication of future trends. (Do you remember certain romantic scenes in BladeRunner 2?)<br />Link:<br />https://www.rt.com/news/434058-japan-sex-dolls-demographic-crisis/<br /><br />https://www.forbes.com/sites/andreamorris/2018/09/25/prediction-sex-robots-are-the-most-disruptive-technology-we-didnt-see-coming/#5e5fea9b6a56<br /><br />Winter7<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-92012429904000566792018-12-10T19:48:28.143-08:002018-12-10T19:48:28.143-08:00I do agree with Winter that a majority of American...I do agree with Winter that a majority of American "racists" are probably racist out of culpable laziness. Given an excuse to reclassify a person in some other way, they often do ("my favorite sports star!" "Entertainer!") without noticing a spark of hypocrisy.<br /><br />But then, many of us non-racists still do the human thing and are quick to "classify" any person we meet. Lacking another immediate category, race can take the foreground. It is a human thing. Though I can squint and imagine how wearing it must feel for a black man - to have to reassure white folks with his "white voice" and to see the look of rushed relief on their faces as they think: "Reclassified! He's black SECONDARILY to being a nice man on the street who held that door open an extra second with a smile. Yes! That's it! Be friendly back at him!"<br /><br />That's not "racism" in any of the older ways. But I am sure it wears away, like a bit of grit you can't get out of your waistband. And many of our kids are already past it.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24829829405756320322018-12-10T19:14:38.257-08:002018-12-10T19:14:38.257-08:00New news: In France, Macron raises wages and cuts ...New news: In France, Macron raises wages and cuts taxes. Waw; ¡that of mass rebellions does work!<br />¡ France gu bràth! ¡ France gu bràth! ¡ France gu bràth! ¡ Saorsa! ¡ Saorsa!<br /><br />Winter7Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60130604366315373182018-12-10T19:00:44.580-08:002018-12-10T19:00:44.580-08:00 Is it my imagination or are some trying to bring ... Is it my imagination or are some trying to bring up the issue of racism? Wufff. Racism is something so anachronistic ... Something pertaining to times of ignorance.<br />In fact. I am convinced that those who are racist are simply people who are chronically idle and do not find something useful to do.<br />Since it is almost impossible to convince a racist that racism is stupid, I conclude that racism will diminish only as the races mix more and more, until the issue of racism becomes a matter officially cataloged as a racism. sign of stupidity.<br />As I said before. Mixing races is a good thing. There is a reason why the members of a tribe preferred to look for wives in other tribes.<br /><br />Winter7<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90862250783263611582018-12-10T18:33:49.433-08:002018-12-10T18:33:49.433-08:00A Canadian can get away with that. We'd have t...<i>A Canadian can get away with that. We'd have to say "we're voting for the N-word guy!"</i><br /><br />Well, that's one Canadian (me) quoting what another Canadian told him an American said. Implication being that if even racists who used the N-word were planning on voting for Obama, he was likely to win. Anecdote-not-evidence, of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68223552746483529152018-12-10T18:29:04.237-08:002018-12-10T18:29:04.237-08:00Even using the Google translator, I can see that C...Even using the Google translator, I can see that Carl M. uses a very unusual way of speaking and presenting ideas. It is as if he is not really a speaker of the English language. In fact, I did not even understand more than 10% of what he said. And soon after, someone named "Mark Jeftovic" appeared.<br />Maybe the Russians are getting more interested in this blog?<br />Whatever. Comrade Jeftovic speaks like someone who mocks without knowing what really happens in matters of politics or science. I do not think he wants to know the truth. Some people are happy consuming the official propaganda without trying to reason something.<br /><br />Winter7Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com