tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post114906749789099340..comments2024-03-28T08:34:43.846-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Decrypting My Own Central Theme: Increasing "Aggregate Intelligence."David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149773459476322372006-06-08T06:30:00.000-07:002006-06-08T06:30:00.000-07:00Actually, where I live (Germany) there is such an ...Actually, where I live (Germany) there is such an infrastructure (Sozialhilfe) - but there are still beggars.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149676174307264042006-06-07T03:29:00.000-07:002006-06-07T03:29:00.000-07:00@Reason:I'm sorry if my being (a little) snide hur...@Reason:<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry if my being (a little) snide hurt your feelings. I just wanted to get my point across that it is pointless to feel guilty about giving those beggars who are "in your face" some relief, while perhaps ignoring those who are "meek and ashamed". <BR/><BR/>When you say: <I>"I would prefer a social society that ensured everybody in need was helped without favour."</I> to me that means that you do want to solve the problem of poverty, albeit not on your own of course. <BR/><BR/>I'm just saying, it may not be fair to pick and choose beggars, it's still better than ignoring all beggars because there's no general infrastructure in place that takes the responsibility away from individuals to care about the poor.<BR/><BR/>Hope this helps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149578068054157032006-06-06T00:14:00.000-07:002006-06-06T00:14:00.000-07:00Frank, I think you were deliberately being snide ...Frank,<BR/> I think you were deliberately being snide with your last comment. I wasn't talking about solving poverty (how could I), but about pernicious selection, about fairness.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149540569628659272006-06-05T13:49:00.000-07:002006-06-05T13:49:00.000-07:00Frank managed to land a glancing blow on what I me...Frank managed to land a glancing blow on what I meant by an axis of empathy. Being science fiction fans, most of us lean toward empathy. However, too much empathy can endanger your own survival. If you are imagining the bad childhood of the person pointing a gun at you, you are not busy trying to get away/duck/hide/fight back. Maybe you can talk your way out of the situation by empathizing with your attacker, but you'd better have a Plan B. <BR/><BR/>At the other end of the axis, people are unable to see the needs of other people at all. Let's call that end of the empathy axis "selfishness". There are times to be selfish or relatively selfish. You should feed your own family before you feed a stranger's family. Maybe you can imagine another family's hunger pangs, but your biological imperatives tell you feed your own people first. (People with lots of empathy might feed the other family or person first. We usually call them saints or nuts or irresponsible parents.)<BR/><BR/>Some people fall toward the outer ends of the empathy/selfishness axis, but most of us are probably in the middle.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149468114354273692006-06-04T17:41:00.000-07:002006-06-04T17:41:00.000-07:00@Reason:You give something to a beggar and you fee...@Reason:<BR/><BR/>You give something to a beggar and you feel guilty about doing that because it doesn't solve the problem of poverty?<BR/><BR/>Giving something to the beggar won't make the problem any worse, will it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149455925718424232006-06-04T14:18:00.000-07:002006-06-04T14:18:00.000-07:00michael vasser said:...and as we learn more we dis...michael vasser said:<BR/><BR/><I>...and as we learn more we discover that the situation is actually dire and that the institutional solutions that we had assumed were in place are totally broken with no realistic prospect of being brought up to task on time.</I><BR/><BR/>Can The Institution think or is it just formed for the exercise of power? To me, the latter is obvious.<BR/><BR/>The controlling concept of all non-profit institutions is power.<BR/><BR/>What has power ever done for true, long-range problem solving and general progress?jomamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11059960615448444452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149425498022526002006-06-04T05:51:00.000-07:002006-06-04T05:51:00.000-07:00Frank, I'm not sure that I expressed what I meant ...Frank,<BR/> I'm not sure that I expressed what I meant so clearly, you seem to have slightly misinterpreted the emphasis. One example, you see a begger what do you do? Well sometimes I give them a little something, but I feel guilty about it. Why? Well why should I privilege those in need (and how do I know they are?) who are in my face, rather than the meek and ashamed. I would prefer a social society that ensured everybody in need was helped without favour. The issue is how broadly I see a problem or my attachment. It is the old of leverage and proxies as DB would say.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149289095332041742006-06-02T15:58:00.000-07:002006-06-02T15:58:00.000-07:00Reason: "Maybe the Nazis care deeply - but just ab...Reason: <I>"Maybe the Nazis care deeply - but just about each other?"</I><BR/><BR/>I doubt that even Nazis can be so easily classified. Diversity is an inherent aspect of any group of humans.<BR/><BR/>Frankly, I think most people do not allow an ideology to define them. People have to go where the power is and that means they have to remain flexible in an uncertain world.<BR/><BR/><I>"I think I know what Doris means by empathy but there is more to it."</I><BR/><BR/>Are you sure it's empathy she's talking about and not sympathy? What was it again ? Empathy + Satiation = Sympathy ? Empathy in itself can be a deadly tool (the predator "reading the mind" of the prey in order to catch it). Realising that another person is suffering may very well not motivate one to ease that suffering if one is suffering as well.<BR/><BR/>Ideology can matter here. Prejudices about why a person is suffering or about the exact nature of the suffering may stop another person from caring.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149264823184735212006-06-02T09:13:00.000-07:002006-06-02T09:13:00.000-07:00Doris, Frank et al,I see actually an interesting s...Doris, Frank et al,<BR/>I see actually an interesting side issue here. See some animal liberationists are terrorists. They justify that by saying that they empathise not just with people but also animals and we are hurting the animals. I have a similar issue with my wife - she thinks I don't get involved enough with people we deal with - but I grew up in a culture where that would have been regarded as favouritism. Maybe the Nazis care deeply - but just about each other? Anybody out there got a feeling about how this cleaves? I think I know what Doris means by empathy but there is more to it.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149264685758816272006-06-02T09:11:00.000-07:002006-06-02T09:11:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149259192035857852006-06-02T07:39:00.000-07:002006-06-02T07:39:00.000-07:00Kung fu monkey has an interesting article about th...<A HREF="http://kfmonkey.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Kung fu monkey</A> has an interesting article about the Electoral College and how it encourages seeing U.S. politics as a dichotomy. Sounds familiar somehow...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149257669975151502006-06-02T07:14:00.000-07:002006-06-02T07:14:00.000-07:00Hey Reason, if we can have an empathy axis then wh...Hey Reason, if we can have an empathy axis then why not also a satiability axis :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149236366356426362006-06-02T01:19:00.000-07:002006-06-02T01:19:00.000-07:00Doris, perhaps we could include an empathy axis ca...Doris,<BR/> perhaps we could include an empathy axis calling it inclusive/exclusive, people have different "ingroups" they identify with. Animal liberationists are one extreme, nazi's another.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149236057100883822006-06-02T01:14:00.000-07:002006-06-02T01:14:00.000-07:00Doris, using an empathy axis is interesting but I...Doris,<BR/> using an empathy axis is interesting but I tend to have a different problem. I tend to relate more to arguments than emotions and often find myself opposing everyone because I see the flaws in their arguments. I like people to recognise the weaknesses (or rather the inherent assumptions) in their own arguments before they try to dismiss the arguments of others as being flawed. Human beings have a built in orientation towards perfectionism. Very often instead of looking for the best solution they look for a "perfect" solution. (Perfect from <I>whose</I> perspective?). So I see empathy as more an aspect of idealistic/pragmatic. I suppose you could test this view empirically.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149215885553345422006-06-01T19:38:00.000-07:002006-06-01T19:38:00.000-07:00I haven't been around for a while and I notice now...I haven't been around for a while and I notice now that Mr. Brin is using hyperlinks now (or at least in this post). Excellent! Thank you!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149204717131285472006-06-01T16:31:00.000-07:002006-06-01T16:31:00.000-07:00Michael, being free to wander around as you see fi...Michael, being free to wander around as you see fit on maps like these is one of their advantages. (in management speak it is called 'situational awareness': being able to tone your reaction to circumstances as necessary) The 'hoary old left right dichotomy' model tends to stuff you down one end or another like the filling of an old pillow, and there you stay. <BR/><BR/>I think that that tendency is one symptom of our need to get more clever: no matter how many axes we identify, we still have a tendency to skitter off to the corners of the room like cockroaches fleeing the light at ground zero (hey! Who can we see at the origin anyway? Some innocuous old geezer with a cat named 'The Lord'?)Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149198072277816892006-06-01T14:41:00.000-07:002006-06-01T14:41:00.000-07:00One problem with Jamais's matrix is that a substan...One problem with Jamais's matrix is that a substantial number of serious futurists such as myself and Bill Joy start out as "realists" and optimists, and as we learn more we discover that the situation is actually dire and that the institutional solutions that we had assumed were in place are totally broken with no realistic prospect of being brought up to task on time. As a result we are forced into the "Idealist" and "Pessimist" camps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149197859361733022006-06-01T14:37:00.000-07:002006-06-01T14:37:00.000-07:00Andrew Smith is right that MDS can be useful, but ...Andrew Smith is right that MDS can be useful, but one danger is that the old Left/Right dictomy defines loyalties in such a manner as to ensure that it come up as the major axis simply because people already define themselves in terms of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149192478475760622006-06-01T13:07:00.000-07:002006-06-01T13:07:00.000-07:00After looking over Jamais' chart, I tried (and fai...<I> After looking over Jamais' chart, I tried (and failed) to remember who it was who asked what kind of society you would design if you didn't know in advance where you would be placed into it...</I><BR/><BR/>It was John Rawls, in <I>A Theory of Justice</I>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149184125538647752006-06-01T10:48:00.000-07:002006-06-01T10:48:00.000-07:00Praxceles pointed out the need for empathy. It is...Praxceles pointed out the need for empathy. It is usually easier to communicate if we have walked a mile in another's shoes. This should be part of our education, whether we learn it in school, in a variety of nonschool activities, or through the mental exercise of science fiction -- see yourself as the alien! <BR/><BR/>So much social and political strife seems to be between those of us who can see another's viewpoint and those who lack virtually all empathy. Those who have empathy are criticized as wishy-washy, without moral standards, without patriotism, weak, and untrustworthy. Those who lack empathy are seen as cruel, clannish, against any kind of exploration, and rigid. (Naturally they have their own terms for their own traits, e.g., wishy-washy equals flexible, rigid equals solid.)<BR/><BR/>How about an empathy axis?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149167988722585602006-06-01T06:19:00.000-07:002006-06-01T06:19:00.000-07:00Mindmaker,you mean we are rearranging deckchairs o...Mindmaker,<BR/>you mean we are rearranging deckchairs on the titanic? Well, last week we were having a bad tempered discussion of speculative cosmology. So we are surely heading in the right direction.-)reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149167841645034502006-06-01T06:17:00.000-07:002006-06-01T06:17:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149163720664237472006-06-01T05:08:00.000-07:002006-06-01T05:08:00.000-07:00All this talk reminds me of the 1983 movie The Day...All this <A HREF="http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/1052883.1052885" REL="nofollow">talk</A> reminds me of the 1983 movie <A HREF="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085404/" REL="nofollow">The Day After</A>, where the oblivious masses sat in their sports stadium while the <A HREF="http://www.blogcharm.com/AI/26454/Standards.html" REL="nofollow">nuclear rockets</A> lifted off from the fields of Kansas just outside the stadium.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149160689150967912006-06-01T04:18:00.000-07:002006-06-01T04:18:00.000-07:00Hi Carl, nice to see you posting here, even if it...Hi Carl,<BR/> nice to see you posting here, even if it is just advertising. I like your site - many of the ideas correspond to ideas I already had so perhaps it is self-referential but I wish you well. But your colour scheme! Eek!<BR/><BR/>How much success do you have though in ideologically oriented USA? Ever considered moving to Canada or Australia? The political system there gives small movements more chance of success (and growth) as well.<BR/><BR/>I saw you talk about biblical welfare, so maybe you will find this interesting:<BR/><BR/>http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/for-a-divine-economy-follow-the-old-testament/2006/04/16/1145126005481.html<BR/><BR/>I suggest you read some Jane Jacobs (recently deceased) as well - totally orthogonal to all schools of thought and quite mind expanding as well.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1149125801404282332006-05-31T18:36:00.000-07:002006-05-31T18:36:00.000-07:00Maybe it's just that I've long been a gaming nerd,...Maybe it's just that I've long been a gaming nerd, but reading some of these comments, with each person emphasizing we need to work on THIS part of things to get where we need to be reminds me of parts of some RPGs. Most especially Mage, where one of the key themes was all the competing factions, pushing their particular worldview and way to get at what's Really Real. And as the characters advanced in knowledge, they realized that pretty much all of the things that seemed like fundamental differences between them were different ways of describing the same thing. Or maybe I'm just projecting from the games I know because I know way too much about them.<BR/><BR/>But on to the subject of intelligence. A lot of human intelligence now isn't really changes in people. It's that we've found ways to put our intelligence (mostly memory, but more and more other things) outside of just our brains and into our environments. Writing as the first example, and the Internet obviously, but there's a lot of other things, too. We make all of us better drivers by making driving simpler and adding things to cars like anti-lock brakes, power steering, and so on. Which doesn't mean everyone's become better drivers, but it's freed up more of our attention for things like talking on cell phones while driving. Okay, bad example. Or cooking. Measuring devices so you don't have to rely on the practiced eye of a cook. Ovens that can be set to a certain temperature and keep it. These are all things that take stuff that was once complex and difficult knowledge and make it as easy as turning a knob.<BR/><BR/>What was the quote I remember from somewhere? "Make a novel writing machine and you make writing novels better. Improve the pencil and you make ALL writing better."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com