tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post112840936667297702..comments2024-03-28T20:50:49.311-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: American Democracy... more fragile than we thinkDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128568388737048192005-10-05T20:13:00.000-07:002005-10-05T20:13:00.000-07:00Thanks, Steve.My view of unions is that they WERE ...Thanks, Steve.<BR/><BR/>My view of unions is that they WERE a good idea, now gone bad ... similar to the original American government ... or due for replacement by something better. "Locals" seem to be reasonable to you ... but the über-union, out-of-touch, caused trouble locally. (Katrina notwithstanding, local government relief and response is usually much more timely and better coordianted than national government response, and that only makes sense, to me. Not faulting the central authority, per se, just that on-site management is, by nature, quicker and more insightful, most of the time.)<BR/><BR/>I believe that just the THREAT of union-oid action makes the (expensive) bureaucracy (and breeding ground for organized crime) unnecessary, and actually counter-productive. The Internet alone can replace institutional union management with grass-roots union-oid strength.<BR/><BR/>The Man wants to keep a certain profession down? Start a blog. Similarly-employed (and related trades) log on and speak out. The Man doesn't listen? Email a work slow-down or stoppage or strike. The Man sees the error of Its ways? Back to work ... and no dues syphoned off to line the pockets of people who only coordinate locals and nationals and "cousin" organizations in related trades. (It seems to me that the people making the bucks in unions don't produce anything but more comfy workers and more expensive production.)<BR/><BR/>The Man doesn't find a way to get a win-win with the labor? They suffer production woes while a wise competitor amps up ... and probably go out of business, replaced by a hungrier, leaner, savvier new-comer.<BR/><BR/>I believe in checks and balances ... but the mechanism for watchdogging becomes worse than the peril originally watched for.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again.Authorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647452176926681840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128546107612828372005-10-05T14:01:00.000-07:002005-10-05T14:01:00.000-07:00About labor/trade unions...I have worked in a vari...About labor/trade unions...<BR/><BR/>I have worked in a variety of companies, both with and without unions. They type of thing I do (improve business process efficiency and teach industrial experimentation and statistical analysis) can be quite threatening to unions (especially since they have been abused by management using similar terms for layoffs, etc.)<BR/><BR/>Once I have a chance to talk with the union members, I have only once had an issue. All the other times, the union saw clearly that it was to their advantage to have a business that used their work efficiently to grow and provide stability, as well as involving them in interesting improvements in their own processes. (The one exception was when the national union decided to use the small company I was consulting for as a demonstration to position themselves for upcoming negotiations with bigger companies in the same industry. The new local union president was not too smart, and the national union callously drove the company out of business and all those guys lost their jobs for their loyalty.)<BR/><BR/>Anyway, the point of that was to say that I have worked with unions and found the locals to be quite reasonable and attuned to what is best for their people. I try to take the view that Dr. Deming espoused in "Out of the Crises" which is that the goals of the unions and management can be viewed as quite compatible.<BR/><BR/>Interestingly, it is middle management that I have found to be resistant to change at a company. The big guys and the front-line workers see the benefits of financial and stability improvement, as well as the more interesting jobs that come out of it. Middle management only sees the threat to the status quo that got them where they are.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128531553843112192005-10-05T09:59:00.000-07:002005-10-05T09:59:00.000-07:00I did not pose a statement in my comment. I asked...I did not pose a statement in my comment. I asked a question. I come here to increase my exposure to ideas and facts. The more I learn, the more suspiscious I am of my own presuppositions. So, I asked people who seem to be better-informed (if, perhaps, not more intelligent) than I am.<BR/><BR/>I am opposed to labor/trade unions, but I asked my question in order to see if I had more (or LESS) evidence to support my bias. Still interested in an answer, if anyone has the time.Authorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647452176926681840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128526775893385952005-10-05T08:39:00.000-07:002005-10-05T08:39:00.000-07:00You're strawmanning me, David. I didn't say that t...You're strawmanning me, David. I didn't say that they were Communist. I said labor unions were trade guilds, and of course they are. Their genesis was the first time any kind of guild formed around more than a shared secret or skill. <BR/><BR/>The whole point of a labor union is to *be* a trade guild to people who otherwise might have no affiliation open to them. It was a marvelous idea. <BR/><BR/>And they could have gone on forever representing that otherwise disenfranchised class, had organized crime not taken over its leadership. What you see in how Wal-Mart is organized, (and how Northwest Airlines and other air carriers entered bankruptcy), is a two-sided failure to implement a proper labor union, or to relate properly to a labor union, not a repudiation of the idea. <BR/><BR/>After all, many of the goals of labor unions from their earliest times are now ensconced in labor laws passed by every one of Western civilization's nation-states. OSHA and health regs were probably not even possible without that movement. Washington's minimum wage law is remarkably progressive, even if it is now an inflation driver. <BR/><BR/>And they shouldn't go away! When done right they become the opportunity for a good wage and a pension for people who otherwise might not realize that. They provide a simple way for a corporation or government to set wages and control costs within a contract period. They provide the waitlists and the training to people, relieving an employer from needing to exert efforts into hiring or to provide training; all they need do is set the wage and let the union use dues to get them the employees they need. <BR/><BR/>So many ways for unions to work *for* a corporation, for them to be *part* of a company, instead of an adversary to them.<BR/><BR/>But it doesn't make them less of a *trade guild*. Nor does it make their organization less pyramid-like and heirarchical than it is. <BR/><BR/>Hoo! Rant off... I guess. :-)Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13115249244056328076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128499411541024502005-10-05T01:03:00.000-07:002005-10-05T01:03:00.000-07:00You guys like to think it's so... and it certainly...You guys like to think it's so... and it certainly can be so, since labor is made of human beings. And you will hear me rail at lefty pyramidalists, too.<BR/><BR/>But seriously, except when they are taken over by organized crime, are you REALLY going to contend that associations of people earning $10 an hour are more empowered to manipulate the Big Picture than billionaires, professions and the politician caste?<BR/><BR/>Jimmy Hoffa needed CITOKATE, badly.<BR/><BR/>But today's trade union movement... reeling and evaporating while pensions dissolve and WalMart spreads its neo-style of indenture across the land ... if you are actually able to convince yourself that this is a red menace of would be commissars...<BR/><BR/>(...especially when it was the AFL-CIO that did more than anybody but Marshall and Truman SAVE us from Communism...)<BR/><BR/>... then you guys have way more imagination than I do. Fer sher.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128490716304606842005-10-04T22:38:00.000-07:002005-10-04T22:38:00.000-07:00Labor and trade unions are guilds. And their organ...Labor and trade unions are guilds. And their organization is relatively pyramid-based.Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13115249244056328076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128488293594149272005-10-04T21:58:00.000-07:002005-10-04T21:58:00.000-07:00"Aristocracies." "Professional guilds." "Souther..."Aristocracies." "Professional guilds." "Southern elites."<BR/><BR/>My question: What about labor and trade unions? How do they differ?<BR/><BR/>Thanks.Authorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06647452176926681840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128466122661629352005-10-04T15:48:00.000-07:002005-10-04T15:48:00.000-07:00Years ago I found a gem of a quote while reading A...Years ago I found a gem of a quote while reading Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations to the effect that: Whenever persons of the same profession gather together for whatever reason however innocuous it may seem the public good is harmed. Not an exact quote but it shows how much he did not like trade associations. If you think about it our parties are like those guilds, as you so wisely pointed out. I think what he was railing about was the secrecy of the guilds which allowed the true price of the good or service to be inflated. Same thing with political parties except the votes get inflated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128464784236149682005-10-04T15:26:00.000-07:002005-10-04T15:26:00.000-07:00I'd not intended it as a dig at all, tho it's easy...I'd not intended it as a dig at all, tho it's easy to see why and how it could be taken thusly.<BR/><BR/>Instead, I had hoped (read the paragraph after the "dig") to point out that the self-renewing of the political class mean that even in their competition with one another, end up cooperating. Over the medium term, the gerrymandering maintains a steady state. Over the long term, it helps not at all; eventually the otherguys re-gerrymander the field, every ten years or twenty years. <BR/><BR/>But what they're *both* doing is cooperating to keep a third or fourth group from intruding on the established class. <BR/><BR/>...which kind of makes the political class a *professional guild*. It has its own published and quite byzantine procedural rules.<BR/><BR/>Think about it. It certain methods for counting coup within the guild, such as scoring ultimately meaningless indictment, impeachments, or media embarrassments (along with the far rarer convictions). The usual sole penalties for those are removal from high positions within the guild. (Nixon resigned and was pardoned.) And there are other methods for awarding position therein, and specific procedures for getting the top job. <BR/><BR/>And perhaps most importantly, getting in resembles getting membership in a guild: Either you win patronage in selection for the "candidacies" at the lowest level (winning your SAG card by sleeping with the casting director), or entrance to the class by winning an elected position or gaining influence in the caucuses (winning your SAG card by being cast on talent) , or entrance by matriculating as a J.D. (becoming a producer first.)<BR/><BR/>Once noticed in that way, it becomes easier to move about. I've discussed this sort of thing with people at the lowest levels of the political class, who have been in discussions with the Republican Party for funding for a Congressional seat. Gerrymandering denied them patronage (campaign funding) because the money was better spent on battlegrounds. <BR/><BR/>I also noticed it in the way the establishment keeps a Commonwealth like Kentucky from publishing a voter pamphlet. And in the way its Statehouse Reps and Senators were the only group to get nominations to the Federal positions.<BR/><BR/>When I lived there I was astounded at how little information ever got out about candidates. Just: "Choose Republican or Democrat." I had to drive to the county seat to get a sample ballot. <BR/><BR/>I don't wish to claim that the political class is completely like the Screen Actors' Guild, but I think at least those parallels are there. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'll complete this thought a bit later on...Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13115249244056328076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128459328076832262005-10-04T13:55:00.000-07:002005-10-04T13:55:00.000-07:00So many distractions, so little time.So many distractions, so little time.jomamahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11059960615448444452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128451428660649462005-10-04T11:43:00.001-07:002005-10-04T11:43:00.001-07:00Wow . . . check out this Norman Rockwell painting,...Wow . . . check out this Norman Rockwell painting, titled "The Right to Know:"<BR/><BR/>http://www.artnet.com/Galleries/Artwork_Detail.asp?G=&gid=153&which=&ViewArtistBy=&aid=553159&wid=424032354<BR/><BR/>John M. Ford comments:<BR/><BR/>“The painting is from 1968, and was commissioned by Look magazine (now defunct) to accompany an editorial critical of government policy in Vietnam -- particularly the official Defense Department reports, which it had become apparent were a form of swords 'n' sorcery fantasy (with Invincible American Warfighting Technology as the sorcery). The desk is most likely not a specific person's, but represents the government as a whole, being called to answer by the population.”<BR/><BR/>StefanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128447763594712102005-10-04T10:42:00.000-07:002005-10-04T10:42:00.000-07:00This is NOT what I meant by competition->Cooperati...This is NOT what I meant by competition->Cooperation, since I am discussing an "emergent property" of competition when it takes place within an Accountability Arena...<BR/><BR/>...still, Rob, that was a VERY clever dig! It provoked me tho think even deeper about the dynamics of CHEATING, which is the old human vice that Accountability Arenas are designed to prevent.<BR/><BR/>Aristocracies cooperate to stay on top and only compete when that's assured.<BR/><BR/>Professional guilds do the same, only from a slightly broader position a bit below the top (though well above the middle.)<BR/><BR/>Again and again we see how hard the Enlightenmant/modernist task is. To create arenas that apply accountability so well that these bahaviors are converted into fair and productive competition so that the cooperation that emerges is positive sum and cross-generationally beneficial to all.<BR/><BR/>How can this happen... EVER! We are heirs to geniuses who were able to do this at all!<BR/><BR/>(And so, Brin reveals how his deep cynicism and paranoia and pessimism about human nature inevitably "emerges" as apparent fizzing optimism. Because he is amazed we even have a snowball's chance.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128437126008864802005-10-04T07:45:00.000-07:002005-10-04T07:45:00.000-07:00Heh. The competition/cooperation thing at work aga...Heh. The competition/cooperation thing at work again, David?<BR/><BR/>A friend of mine and I were talking about this a little bit, when he noted that he considers all federal politicians members of the same socio-economic class. It doesn't at all matter that they squabble, because they'll move to protect their own positions if threatened at a different level.Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13115249244056328076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1128412607704542712005-10-04T00:56:00.000-07:002005-10-04T00:56:00.000-07:00Ugh. On one level they fight, on anohter they're ...Ugh. On one level they fight, on anohter they're allies; a cross between a deep strategy gamer and a con artist.<BR/><BR/>I'm beginning to think that anywhere things are more complex than they really should be, then somebody's making them that way so they can get a free ride.<BR/><BR/>-- MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com