tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post111397017154094133..comments2024-03-28T10:56:52.861-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Modernism thought in gestationDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114139001998756092005-04-21T20:03:00.000-07:002005-04-21T20:03:00.000-07:00@Frank...and how about 'Crash through or Crash'?*....@Frank<BR/>...and how about 'Crash through or Crash'?*<BR/>... the Pascalian Wager?<BR/><BR/>I certainly don't mean to say that risks are never worth the potential benefit, but that they should be considered.<BR/>And sometimes slow and steady is the the best approach.<BR/>... and sometimes it's 'YEE-HAH!!'**<BR/><BR/>On Reason's comments:<BR/><BR/>I don't see a problem with wedge politics in the manner described. It simply stems from realising that, just because your opponent insists on standing in a corner hurling vitriol, FUD, and contempt, you don't have to do likewise from the opposite corner.<BR/><BR/>That's pragmatism: the discovery of the contrast knob.<BR/><BR/><I>* the title of a book describing the Whitlam government in Australia: 1972-75<BR/><BR/>** Such as when you find yourself straddling an armed thermonuclear device in freefall. Or, since we're into SF themes at the moment, consider Spock's actions in the STOS episode: 'The Galileo Seven'</I>Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114108696823261352005-04-21T11:38:00.000-07:002005-04-21T11:38:00.000-07:00@ reason:I understand the concept of wedge politic...@ reason:<BR/><BR/>I understand the concept of wedge politics and if properly executed such a strategy may well work. But it still feels like a devious thing to do.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm naive, maybe such methods are necessary. Maybe I'm just not pragmatic enough.<BR/><BR/>Then again, I've always hated it when politicians play the 'necessity' card. Especially when they combine it with the 'state secrets' card. But that's another issue.<BR/><BR/>Politics is a tough game and my moral standards concerning it are perhaps unreasonably high.<BR/><BR/>BTW. 'ploys' are generally associated with deviousness...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114090086974856992005-04-21T06:28:00.000-07:002005-04-21T06:28:00.000-07:00Just to clarify my comment about divide and conque...Just to clarify my comment about divide and conquer - it is not meant to be devious at all. It is just we need to be aware of the danger inherent in a growing theocratical trend and the logic of Mark's post is that the TACTIC we should use is to play up the differences in our opponents so they will support enlightenment processes for their own purposes. That means, perhaps that we need to be a bit subtler than we have been so we don't end up emphasising to them what they have in common. This is a well known political ploy - it's called wedge politics.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114084708821535932005-04-21T04:58:00.000-07:002005-04-21T04:58:00.000-07:00@ Tony Fisk:" The risks of failure are far less.- ...@ Tony Fisk:<BR/><BR/>" The risks of failure are far less.<BR/>- Stick with Tradition when the risks of doing otherwise is unnacceptably high<BR/>- Be willing to Innovate when the risks are low." <BR/><BR/>Yeah, okay. but...<BR/><BR/>Past performance is no guarantee of future results.<BR/><BR/>And what about "High Risk, High Gain", "No Balls, No Glory" ?<BR/><BR/>There's no trick you can learn to being innovative and successful, every step into the future is sparkling and new.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114063853740756552005-04-20T23:10:00.000-07:002005-04-20T23:10:00.000-07:00The suggestion that romantic yearnings boil down t...The suggestion that romantic yearnings boil down to basic egotism seems fair, but I think there is another aspect to why romanticism is so alluring: reassurance.<BR/>The past is a known quantity (or it would be if you went fossicking in the historical archives). The future, on the other hand, is the unknown: an undiscovered country where there be dragons, and into which we are being inexorably pushed without pause.<BR/><BR/>Small wonder we prefer to seek solace in what we know.<BR/><BR/>And that's OK. Tradition is a tool to be used with much more confidence than Innovation simply because it is *known* to have worked. The risks of failure are far less.<BR/>- Stick with Tradition when the risks of doing otherwise is unnacceptably high<BR/>- Be willing to Innovate when the risks are low.<BR/>- Be able to choose your strategy according to circumstance.<BR/><BR/>The danger that David has been warning about is (I think), the assault on choice that framing conflicts as dichotomies creates, and which is the natural outcome of the rise of romanticism. I suspect you would see similar issues if Modernists were in the ascendency.<BR/><BR/>(Aside: on thinking through this comment, it occurred to me that the phrase 'He who is not with me is against me' is probably one of the most understated and pervasive threats in history!*)<BR/><BR/>So, if you want to feel more positive about it, think of yourselves as being outed as mature conservatives, able to choose your strategies, rather than as romantics, or as modernists, who can't.<BR/><BR/>David has expressed amazement that this society exists at all, given our natural stick-in-the-mud ways. It will interesting to speculate on what drives the modernist side of things. (My take, as previously mentioned, is laziness)<BR/><BR/><I>* Worthy of the green oven-mitt award?</I>Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114038527823237212005-04-20T16:08:00.000-07:002005-04-20T16:08:00.000-07:00I haven't read 'em yet, but Neal Stephenson's "Bar...I haven't read 'em yet, but Neal Stephenson's "Baroque Cycle" (<I>Quicksilver, Confusion, The System of the World</I>) are, well, romances about the beginnings of some of the underpinnings of modernity: Science and capitalism.<BR/><BR/>Stephenson put an interesting spin on modernism-vs.-romanticism in <I>The Diamond Age</I>. His opinion of the rapid progress and decentralization allowed by nanotechnology seemed to change in the course of the book. He seemed to realize that the book's fictional civilization's basic structures would be in danger of collapse. He suggested that the only cultures that could survive and protect its members against chaos were highly traditional ones. He describes a 21st century version of Victorianism. I found this interesting, insightful, and a bit of a let-down.<BR/><BR/>StefanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114029970780808552005-04-20T13:46:00.000-07:002005-04-20T13:46:00.000-07:00Crib?? Well, I just went to look at that paper an...Crib?? Well, I just went to look at <A HREF="http://www.davidbrin.com/disputationarticle1.html" REL="nofollow">that paper</A> and... sure enough, I'd read it before. But I introduced the romantic notion of The Enlightenment being a women with children! lolXactiphynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08254344563346437079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114027436621587022005-04-20T13:03:00.000-07:002005-04-20T13:03:00.000-07:00First off... Mario is right that the dolphin hybri...First off... Mario is right that the dolphin hybrid with a false killer whale is utterly fabulous and SOMEBODY ought to tell Sea Life Park and the press that I predicted it in 1982!<BR/><BR/>"Reason" and Mark made very very very cogent remarks. The deliberate effort to unify elites and restore feudal-style governance is described at: http://www.davidbrin.com/realculturewar1.html<BR/><BR/>Mark further added: "So how does Enlightenment win out? You credit science, but I believe it is more than that. Though not quite historically accurate, I think of Enlightenment as having three children: Science, Democracy and Capitalism. All three depend on the same basic evolutionary principle of autonomous agents competing, interacting and debating. There is a power to this model that we are only beginning to understand with complexity theory."<BR/><BR/>Whaaaaa? You are seriously going to say all this and pretend that you did not crib it from my Disputation Arenas paper at: http://www.davidbrin.com/disputationarticle1.html ?????<BR/><BR/>Just kidding ;-) But seriously, you eerily replicate the core notion that I argue there, only I add one more "accountability arena" to the three you mention, and speculate about a possible fifth... the Web. THAT PAPER is where some of you can go if you are really, really interested in this stuff. It was lead article in an issue of the American Bar Association's Journal of Dispute Resolution.<BR/><BR/>Mark Rayner said: "I think today's post has been the first where I've identified WHY romantic ideals still hold so much sway -- it all goes back to our basic egoism as human beings. We WANT to believe we're special..."<BR/><BR/>Dang straight. Every day I wake up in this society I am amazed that it happened at all. Certainly if our opponents, the macho terrorists, the syndical Confucians, and the neo-feudalists, get their way, this experiment will never be tried again. They will prevent it easily, since they have human nature on their side.<BR/><BR/>Why do you think the works of AE Van Vogt and Orson Scott Card are so popular? Every single one gives the reader a chance to pretend he is a Silkie or a Slan or a demigod who will SHOW all those bullies from school what's up, just as soon as those hidden secret/mystic powers (or midchlorians) kick in. <BR/>As I said, the allure is HUGE! I freely admit that much of my own fiction toys with romantic and demigod themes. Transcendence and such. It takes a conscious effort to turn these themes around and extoll... well... sometimes the common man. But it's good enough (I feel) to extoll a hero or heroine who is simply "a whole lot above average."<BR/><BR/>Finally Re: <I>" are you secretly a Vulcan disguised as a human ?" </I> Interesting notion, since my wife, a beautiful Caltech PhD, had a crush on Spock, who was also a rather hairy rabbinical type. Just about the only thing I like about ENTERPRISE is their exploration of Vulcanism... how they developed a code of logic because NATURALLY they are vastly more emotional and mercurial than humans are!David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114021552546504982005-04-20T11:25:00.000-07:002005-04-20T11:25:00.000-07:00@ mark:The evolutionary principle is such a beauti...@ mark:<BR/><BR/>The evolutionary principle is such a beautiful thing - if you don't mind going extinct. That wouldn't be good for diversity would it?<BR/><BR/>@ reason:<BR/><BR/>Divide and Conquer? Hm, seems like such a manipulative and evil plan. Could we perhaps use the thruth to do this?<BR/><BR/>@ NoOne:<BR/><BR/>If people feel hostile towards scientists it's not because they haven't explained consciousness but because they may explain it. It's what science will allow people to do that's frightning them (and it is fear that is making them feel hostile (credit: Yoda?) ), not what science may prove to be impossible to understand.<BR/><BR/>@ David Brin:<BR/><BR/>"Seizing every opportunity to extol emotion and put down “cold” reason has become as natural as breathing."<BR/><BR/> And your motto is: "moderation in everything" ? Or are you secretly a Vulcan disguised as a human ?<BR/><BR/>"In how many popular films does a skillful nerd prevail over the romantic loner?"<BR/><BR/> In my experience the skillful nerds *are* the romantic loners.<BR/><BR/>"Intellectuals of the Confucian East and Pious South despise both Romanticism and Enlightenment as expressions of crazy euro<BR/>-american-individualist egoism."<BR/><BR/> And they are right. But, so what? It works - within certain parameters.<BR/><BR/>"A great science fiction author once said -- “Keep asking questions! The more irksome the better!” "<BR/><BR/> When are you going to drop that modernism bombshell of yours ? You do have one ? :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114020434116594792005-04-20T11:07:00.000-07:002005-04-20T11:07:00.000-07:00Reason,Divide and Conquer, yes, but I meant more t...Reason,<BR/><BR/>Divide and Conquer, yes, but I meant more than that. Even if every single player is a conservative or romantic, liberal enlightenment can still thrive once the correct environment is created; such as we have now.<BR/><BR/>I remember a few years back reading about a Florida case where an animal rights group was trying to prevent a pagan cult from performing animal sacrifices. The Catholic church came to the defense of the pagan cult because they wanted to protect the right of religious freedom. Three romantic players solving a problem in pure, enlightened fashion. Pretty amazing, if you think about it.Xactiphynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08254344563346437079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114008450865181912005-04-20T07:47:00.000-07:002005-04-20T07:47:00.000-07:00Dr. Brin said "Out of this welter and confusion, I...Dr. Brin said "Out of this welter and confusion, I don’t know which zeitgeist will prevail. Perhaps even a synthesis? "<BR/><BR/>The very best simultaneous exultation and criticism of the enlightnment tht I have read is in Ken Wilber's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570627444/qid=1114007280/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4677249-0905650?v=glance&s=books&n=507846" REL="nofollow">Sex, Ecology and Spirituality</A>. Quoting from it (pages 435 and 442, first edition)<BR/><BR/>Exultation:<BR/><BR/>"And at its best, the Enlightenment committed itself to exposing these power relations and to dismantling the dominator hierarchies that had formed the core of the social, cultural, and religious institutions of the entire mythic and mythic-rational epochs. ..."No more myths!" meant "No more dominator hierarchies!," and the Age of Reason and Revolution set out to prove just that."<BR/><BR/>Criticism:<BR/><BR/>"In other words, the "sciences of man" and the new "dehumanizing humanism" did not just study the objective (and monological) aspects of human beings (which would be fine), they reduced human beings to their merely objective and empirical components (which was the crime). Humans were not "subjects in communication" but merely "objects of information." And because that reduction is not supported by the Kosmos,...,then it must be driven by something other than truth: it must be driven in large measure by self-aggrandizing power..."<BR/><BR/>Ask yourself if science has explained consciousness. Do we have an objective theory of subjectivity? No, we don't. And yet, we turn a blind eye to this huge gaping hole in our worldview. Or we try and cover the hole with bandaid by using terms such as epiphenomenalism, complexity theory etc. And then we (the ones connected to science) wonder why there's so much hostility toward us.NoOnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08685249095572192084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1114000254794168812005-04-20T05:30:00.000-07:002005-04-20T05:30:00.000-07:00Hello David,Just discovered your blog. Delighted t...Hello David,<BR/><BR/>Just discovered your blog. Delighted to see it! Will comment directly on this post after I digest it properly.<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, I thought I would introduce you to Takkata-Jim's great-great grandmother, if you haven't met her already.<BR/><BR/>http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/04/15/wholphin.birth.ap/<BR/><BR/>Funny that the first post of yours I read is about Lucas. I just finished "Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina" and have just started "Kiln People".<BR/><BR/>Best from Boston,<BR/><BR/>MarioAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1113998635964133652005-04-20T05:03:00.000-07:002005-04-20T05:03:00.000-07:00Mark, I think you are correct, but then there rem...Mark,<BR/> I think you are correct, but then there remains the danger that one romantic idealism (be it marxism, islamism or catholicism) could win out and a new dark age would ensue. Don't take the current situation for granted, there are storm clouds of theocracy brewing.<BR/> But in general the answer to the threat that one can take from your post is: DIVIDE AND CONQUER. We need to emphasize the divisions amongst the theocrats in order to defeat them.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1113980056547895432005-04-19T23:54:00.000-07:002005-04-19T23:54:00.000-07:00I think you hit on the main issue when you said:Lu...I think you hit on the main issue when you said:<BR/><BR/><I>Lucas has a point. I concede the great attraction of the image that his Star Wars universe offers, while opposing it with all my power.</I><BR/><BR/>and<BR/><BR/><I>With so many enemies, coming from so many directions, should we marvel that the Enlightenment achieved anything at all?</I><BR/><BR/>The fact is we are all romantics, down to our bones. At least I know I am, despite my own opposition to that point of view. <BR/><BR/>So how does Enlightenment win out? You credit science, but I believe it is more than that. Though not quite historically accurate, I think of Enlightenment as having three children: Science, Democracy and Capitalism. All three depend on the same basic evolutionary principle of autonomous agents competing, interacting and debating. There is a power to this model that we are only beginning to understand with complexity theory.<BR/><BR/>But here is the real reason Enlightenment wins out: diversity. You see, Romanticism, like Conservatism, is always specific. My romantic ideal isn't the same as yours. My conservative, unyielding church doctrine is different than yours. As long as the Romantics and Conservatives are splintered from each other, we can still have a strong, Enlightened environment.<BR/><BR/>Would a benevolent dictator be the best form of government? Sure. But who gets to decide the definition of 'benevolent'? And how do we know he or she really is benevolent? As long as my romantic ideal is different from yours, we can't go that route; democracy wins.Xactiphynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08254344563346437079noreply@blogger.com