tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post9051977204991664933..comments2024-03-19T05:35:07.296-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Marvels of the UniverseDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47861249277546825282015-02-04T12:25:13.973-08:002015-02-04T12:25:13.973-08:00onwardonwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70717706887631931592015-02-04T11:47:14.192-08:002015-02-04T11:47:14.192-08:00Well yes, you can get cranky, but this is your pla...Well yes, you can get cranky, but this is your place. And I don't have a lot of room to complain about cranky people myself. BTW, "Space Suite" was awesome, thanks.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30320456517508621552015-02-04T10:14:10.120-08:002015-02-04T10:14:10.120-08:00An honest critic would chart my responses to criti...An honest critic would chart my responses to criticism or disagreement along a spectrum (with examples.) While I am far from perfect... and indeed have apologized on numerous occasions... I tend to envision that I react to polite (even somewhat snippy) disagreement in ways that are okay, down here, in an informal and unofficial comments section, where everyone is on notice to have a moderately thick skin.<br /><br />To be clear, when I say "that's malarkey (or bullshit)" that's a very different from saying "YOU are a dope (or off your meds)." Right?<br /><br />Of course, that impression I have... that I only respond ad hominem to people who started it first... could be in error! Confirmation bias and all that yadda. So what's the strongest evidence?<br /><br />The nature of this community, one of the oldest and smartest on the web. I take solace from the likelihood that most of you smartalecks would not put up with me, were I deteriorating very far below the level of an occasional snark/snip or spit.<br /><br />That, too, is subjective. But the fact that I CARE about that is not. That is just a fact. In evidence: that I took the time to write this apologia.<br /><br />Hence, I have to ask Robert again. Not for examples, since he appears loathe to do that. But whether he has considered the third possibility, in his dichotomy. <br /><br />A third explanation for why he perceives me as deteriorating into snarling grouchitude.<br /><br />Here's a deal. I will consider his two hypothetical explanations... if he will at least ponder the third.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-88954742535346459482015-02-04T02:37:58.195-08:002015-02-04T02:37:58.195-08:00Robert said
"Look at how often Dr. Brin links...Robert said<br />"Look at how often Dr. Brin links previous blog posts as if to say "see? I already said it!" and that his views and beliefs need not change."<br /><br />Having taken the time and trouble to explain a point why should the good doctor do it again??<br />If the first article is good then get as much use out of it as possible<br /><br />The only times Dr Brin has been a little tiny bit short with me has been when I have cast aspersions on the American founding fathers, otherwise he has been a very gracious host <br /> <br /><br />Duncan Cairncrossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-76949888079044388962015-02-04T00:01:53.534-08:002015-02-04T00:01:53.534-08:00In keeping with Paul's comments about going of...In keeping with Paul's comments about going off theme:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.planetary.org/blogs/casey-dreier/2015/0202-its-official-we-are-on-the-way-to-europa-fy2016.html" title="O brave new world that has such marvels." rel="nofollow">NASA has received the go-ahead to plan for a mission to Europa</a><br /><br />And maybe this might go into the Facebook entry: <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-04/great-white-killed-by-killer-whales-in-sa/6069168" title="What are they teaching the kids these days?" rel="nofollow">orcas vs cacharodons</a>Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-89266129091057121132015-02-03T20:11:32.222-08:002015-02-03T20:11:32.222-08:00Thinking about Mozart brought another thought to m...Thinking about Mozart brought another thought to mind. It has long been noted that as people age, they tend to become more narrowly focused. If you compare, say, a Mozart piano concerto written in his mid-twenties to his last few, the later compositions are more thematically conservative. That is, they have fewer new musical ideas (ironically, though, his last is still my favorite).<br /><br />I have only been visiting Dr. Brin's blog since this summer, but I can see the main themes and subjects he posts about. We have some very cool round-ups of current science, tributes to classic writers, critiques of movies, and a huge helping of politics. Now it is his server and he can do what he likes with it. Since I'm not a very political person and I know very little about economic theory, I tend to stay out of those (except when someone spouts real egregious troglodyte memes). I also have my time issues, so some I stay out of not by choice.<br /><br />However, Dr. Brin often posts some very interesting material on very different subjects on Facebook. I just checked while waiting for my school's server to come back on line, and saw one about dolphins, another about disaster survival and one about Frank Herbert's Dune series. Maybe, if some of us are getting a little bored with the typical themes but still enjoy the community, we might suggest he bring some of this other material to the blog once in awhile.<br /><br />But having said that, I have also noticed that these discussions often go off the topic that Dr. Brin began with. Certain vocal members of this forum have their own pet themes, often ones that rile up others, and the whole conversation tends to drift back to the same old debates. I'm guilty of it, too. If it were my blog I'm sure some people would get tired of hearing about brains all the time. A skill I learned as a classroom teacher is when to ignore certain behaviors strategically. A little of that might help, too.Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55405347891748124652015-02-03T19:55:10.442-08:002015-02-03T19:55:10.442-08:00Jumper, predispositions toward greater neuronal de...Jumper, predispositions toward greater neuronal densities in specific brain regions is a definite possibility. One of the very few verifiable differences between men and women is that on average men have more developed occipital lobes, while women average more developed temporal lobes. This means that males tend to be better at visual/spatial tasks and women at auditory/linguistic tasks, but this is only average. If it were possible to get a hold of Mozart's brain, for instance, I would not be surprised to find that he had a lot more going on in his temporal lobes than most people of either sex. And this observation may or may not imply a genetic predisposition. I do not know of any studies that have compared these sensory differences in cultures that have gender roles very different from ours. <br /><br />As far as neurotransmitters go, glutamate is the main one for memory encoding, and genes that set base levels for both glutamate and its receptor (both equally necessary - you can't watch TV without a TV set, or without a TV station broadcasting the signal), but these are still poorly understood. Alfred is right that we can't be too sure with such a young science, but then, you have to go with what you know, ya know? We might turn out to be wrong about anything - that's just life for anyone less than a god - but it doesn't do any good to sit on your hands and shout "need more data" forever. Glutamate will sound familiar to most people from the flavoring called monosodium glutamate. I thank I related a story about a geology professor I knew who got amnesia from MSG. Although she was probably more susceptible than average, I would still advise staying away from soy products. The only way to know if you are susceptible is to find out the hard way. Dopamine seems to be involved in encoding muscle memory (why Parkinson's Disease has an amotivational side-effect), so it may not be just this one neurotransmitter.<br /><br />Of course the debate about the heritibility of intelligence is getting stale, but it isn't going to go away as long as people find it politically useful to claim that some class of human beings is inferior, unworthy of rights or even access to adequate supplies of their biological needs. Heritibility, in most people's minds, means unchanging (though most people still have not even heard of epigenetics - apparently even the spell checker hasn't!). Thus Laurent's comment about aristocratic privilege.<br /> Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-54261250661269044272015-02-03T18:12:22.733-08:002015-02-03T18:12:22.733-08:00I know the estimates for what is inherited for min...I know the estimates for what is inherited for minds hosted on brains change around, but I'm skeptical we can put up anything better than a crude guess. I've been learning about the damage done to a fetus whose immune system learns to turn on to threats faced by the mother. The ensuing auto-immune diseases strike me as a muddler of what we can know at this stage of our science, so I've chosen to shrug my shoulders when people wonder about inheritance of mental skills.<br /><br />I've no doubt some skills are passed along, but our species isn't all that diverse yet. I'd be skeptical about narratives using inheritance explaining differences between mature people on that alone. Environment strikes me as much more likely.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60079570398641081342015-02-03T17:33:16.304-08:002015-02-03T17:33:16.304-08:00Paul Shen-Brown,
I was thinking the other day abou...Paul Shen-Brown,<br />I was thinking the other day about what sorts of things might <i>really</i> be going on in genetics which would be interpreted as affecting "intelligence" (I must say the debate is indeed sort of getting stale). I think greater neuron density linkages to specific areas of the brain, and these are problematically also affected by simple practice. What I mean is, some brains may trend towards greater neural densities in the visual system. Or the areas concerned with dexterity of hands. Or proprioceptive sensation in general. Hearing. Taste.<br /><br />Other heritable traits might be neurotransmitter-related and more system-wide, affecting memory, or short-term projection-anticipation of motions, etc.<br /><br />As far as our human host here, I like to think David has noted the concern expressed from a broad range of friends and fans, and doesn't need to eat crow to note it. Everyone changes, indeed whether they want to or not.<br /><br />I also wanted to mention again that I value both Robert's and Tacitus' inputs. Everybody has an off day. Except me, of course. ;>]Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5574281226429072842015-02-03T17:10:07.251-08:002015-02-03T17:10:07.251-08:00Robert:
So what you are suggesting is that each t...Robert:<br /><i><br />So what you are suggesting is that each time the blackboard is erased we are to accept this as a brand new day without considering history?<br /></i><br /><br />No, but most o that history was already there when you were considering inviting libertarian friends to join in. I'm asking what changed between that time and the time you decided you are glad you held off.<br /><br />Ok, your exact wording was:<br /><i><br />But after this latest bout of immaturity by Dr. Brin... I'm glad I held off. <br /></i><br /><br />So I rephrase my question. What <b>latest</b> bout of immaturity? If saying "I know you are but what am I?" to locumranch--after he claims Dr. Brin wants everyone to be risk-avoiding company men--is enough to drive you off, then yeah, you're probably not in the right place. If that's not it, then I still don't get what "it" is.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58594241563915914402015-02-03T13:27:30.117-08:002015-02-03T13:27:30.117-08:00Sorry, Robert, I looked through recent postings. ...Sorry, Robert, I looked through recent postings. And (1) give n' take down in a comments section has different rules... and ...<br /><br />(2) the only person I see myself having been "rude" to is locumranch, who desperately seeks it. Who does every conceivable thing to get a reaction. I am merely being a good host and supplying what my guest relentlessly hungers for. Indeed, I am mostly stingy, since he has become boring. <br /><br />You'll notice that time and again you have stated these "churlish" accusations without giving a single example. Note also that you give two possible explanations... a typical black-whit dichotomy... <br /><br />...without even remotely considering that there is a third.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-67427399546527293082015-02-03T08:38:41.530-08:002015-02-03T08:38:41.530-08:00Regarding sousveillance, an interesting twist. Th...Regarding sousveillance, an interesting twist. There are now crowd-sourced data sites to track "officer-involved fatalities," which haven't been tracked well in the past.<br /><br />http://blogs.kqed.org/lowdown/2015/01/28/crowd-sourced-data-show-more-than150-killings-by-california-police-last-year/<br /><br />http://audio.californiareport.org/archive/R201502030850/c<br /><br />Government permission is not required to track the government.A.F. Reynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85496395431564567282015-02-03T06:54:37.770-08:002015-02-03T06:54:37.770-08:00So what you are suggesting is that each time the b...So what you are suggesting is that each time the blackboard is erased we are to accept this as a brand new day without considering history?<br /><br />There is a saying about history, and what happens when it is ignored.<br /><br />I speak up because if no one dares speak, then there is no chance for growth.<br /><br />And Tacitus is correct about one thing: Contrary Brin has gotten... repetitive. Look at how often Dr. Brin links previous blog posts as if to say "see? I already said it!" and that his views and beliefs need not change.<br /><br />You could say it's rather conservative of him. ;)<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9222281650314947132015-02-03T05:28:50.160-08:002015-02-03T05:28:50.160-08:00@Robert, @Tacitus2
I just glanced back through th...@Robert, @Tacitus2<br /><br />I just glanced back through the main post and these comments to see what you are talking about as being boringly repetetive or overly indignant. Except for a few back-and-forths where our host responds to a direct insult, I honestly don't see what set either of you off.<br /><br />Previous postings about Red States and the New Civil War, sure, but why this post or these comments, of all times to complain?LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47255732273647279662015-02-02T22:29:38.334-08:002015-02-02T22:29:38.334-08:00Robert
I too have tended to just wander through on...Robert<br />I too have tended to just wander through once in a while. Although I do enjoy some of the recent arrivals such as Laurent and Paul SB, there is a dull sameness to the general discourse. You could stop reading, come back a month later and the same debates are going on.<br />Even the indignation that offends you and for good reasons hardly phases me any more. <br /><br /><br />David, a writer can get away with being many things. Engaging, infuriating, enigmatic, Delphic, etc. The one thing you must avoid at all costs is...being boring.<br /><br />Sorry.<br /><br />I will continue to amble through now and again hoping for a topic that makes me think a bit.<br /><br />TacitusTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2209767504441799212015-02-02T22:16:06.546-08:002015-02-02T22:16:06.546-08:00"This assumption has been used for the last c..."<i>This assumption has been used for the last couple centuries as a justification for racism, and for many more centuries as a justification for sexism.</i>"<br /><br />And let's not forget the justification of aristocratic privilege. Racist jargon sounds a lot like a roman patrician's ranting about his intrinsic intellectual superiority over the plebs: <b>he</b> read Plato in its original greek script while <b>they</b> babbled in vulgare Latinum pidgin: no contest at all, no siree.Laurent Weppenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68153951442580581872015-02-02T22:03:47.538-08:002015-02-02T22:03:47.538-08:00You don't understand, Dr. Brin?
You speak of ...You don't understand, Dr. Brin?<br /><br />You speak of addiction to outrage and yet act in the manner which you warn others. You have taken to ridiculing those who disagree with you rather than retaining a sense of propriety and intellect. You have become churlish and enjoy baiting people along so to demonstrate their inferiority.<br /><br />I don't know if I've just woken up and finally noticed, or if you have changed. I would prefer to think it the latter but freely admit it might be the former; no one ever wants to admit they were wrong about someone.<br /><br />I no longer want to encourage my friends to come here and participate in debate. That tells something to me. It is a warning sign. And I know that there is nothing I can say which is going to shift the inertia of this blog.<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68053202115150618792015-02-02T20:23:30.436-08:002015-02-02T20:23:30.436-08:00Movements in education tend to be pendular - they ...Movements in education tend to be pendular - they swing from over-emphasis on myelination to over-emphasis on arborization. If you insist on linking these movements to political parties, the tendency has been for the reds to emphasize stultifying regimens rote memorization, while blues look to loosy-goosy experience-building activities that would tend to arborize. Both sides miss the fact that learners cannot memorize what they don't understand (which requires the enriched experiences that grow and form connections between dendrites), but they won't understand those rich experiences if they do not memorize the relevant facts that make them work.<br /><br />So, can intelligence be taught? Maybe, or maybe it can be learned but not directly taught. Given the current state of the science, that is what it looks like. We can teach facts, and we can provide rich, stimulating environments that will promote the growth of brains that would allow them to understand the facts we teach. But given that we cannot even adequately define intelligence, I think the case is not yet closed. However, to assume, as our ancestors did without the benefits of modern science and technology, that intelligence is a single, unchanging and entirely inherited quantity is a case of almost criminally willful ignorance. Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36991368371208605902015-02-02T20:23:06.445-08:002015-02-02T20:23:06.445-08:00There are 2 relevant factors here. One is called M...There are 2 relevant factors here. One is called Myelination. This involves cells in your brain called oligodendrocytes, which stretch out extensions of their membranes to wrap them around the axons of nerve cells. Axons are the fibers down which electrical signals are sent. In circuits that get used frequently, the oligodendrocytes wrap what is called a myelin sheath around axons in those circuits. This has 2 effects. One is that it accelerates the electrical signal, the other is that, in a brain crowded with nerve cells in close proximity, it ensures that the signal always goes to the same place (hopefully meaning the right place, but if you do something wrong consistently, the myelin sheath ensures that you will continue to do it wrong in the same way every time). Your brain is selective about what pathways get myelinated, mostly choosing things you do frequently, like the nerves that signal the heart muscles. However, myelination is not only for muscle movement. Everything you learn is made permanent and automatic by myelination. (Actually, it isn't entirely permanent - if a pathway is not used for an extended period, the oligodendrocytes withdraw the myelin sheath and place it somewhere else. This is how we forget.) <br /><br />This might lead you to think that old-fashion drill and kill teaching is the only way to learn, but we are not that simple. There is a second relevant process called Arborization. In this process, wispy extensions of a nerve cell's membrane called dendrites grow and connect to the axons of other nerve cells. The more dendrite connections you grow, the bigger your neural networks grow, the more easily you can retrieve memories and connect them to relevant information from which to make choices. If there is a mechanism in our brains that makes the difference between smart and not smart, it is this. Myelination is akin to ROM - it is long-term storage of memory. Arborization is what makes the flexible, creative thinking that we typically think of as "intelligence" possible. <br /><br />A very relevant fact about both of these processes is that both are inherently flexible. Children who grow up in a rich environment full of stimulating experiences grow huge numbers of dendrites, while children who live in impoverished environments with very little to stimulate them grow many fewer dendrites. This is why previous estimates of the heritability of intelligence were always very high. Wealthy people can afford to give their children very stimulating childhoods, filled with books, trips to cultural landmarks, lessons in new skills, travel around the world, etc., while the poor can only offer their children the resources of their ghetto to stimulate their growing brains. Without adequately separating environment from genes, the effects of arborization will tend to inflate the appearance of heritability.<br />Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-32626752287175605442015-02-02T20:22:29.983-08:002015-02-02T20:22:29.983-08:00A much more insidious problem, though, is the deep...A much more insidious problem, though, is the deeply ingrained assumption that intelligence is entirely inherited. This assumption has been used for the last couple centuries as a justification for racism, and for many more centuries as a justification for sexism. But two of the fields in science that are advancing at the fastest pace right now - neurology and genetics, have at least some light to cast on this problem.<br /><br />Estimates of the heritability of intelligence have varied quite widely over the last century, and have all suffered from innumerable confounds. However, the trend in the last couple decades since the Human Genome Project has been the genetic contribution to intelligence is constantly being reduced. In fact, it has been pretty typical of 20th Century medical science to assume high heritability when very little is known about a phenomenon, but those heritability estimates drop as we learn more. I have personal experience with this one, but little time to relate the story. Some genes have been found to relate to intelligence in limited ways, but I have seen heritability estimates for intelligence that dip as low as 20%.<br /><br />Now what does neuroscience say about this? The most obvious thing is the revolutionary discoveries in neuroplasticity that have completely changed the field in the past few decades, since scanning devices more effective than the EEG came along. It is patently obvious that intelligence is a highly malleable property, though its malleability tends to decrease with age. <br />Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45736949430927947072015-02-02T20:22:00.406-08:002015-02-02T20:22:00.406-08:00Once you start talking about intelligence we are g...Once you start talking about intelligence we are going to find our minds weighted with the heavy baggage of ancient assumptions. One of the most useful roles science can play is in discarding ancient assumptions and prejudices that do not fit the facts as they are currently known. Now Dr. Brin can speak for himself as to what he meant, though I don't think he was saying anything about teaching intelligence. Part of becoming smarter is simply having the knowledge to make smart decisions - the dispelling of ignorance.<br /><br />But what, exactly, is intelligence? Most people have an intuitive understanding of what they mean by it, and most people can point to certain people as paragons of intelligence, or relate anecdotes that seem emblematic of intelligence. However, efforts to create an objective way to operationally define intelligence, much less measure intelligence, have all fallen on their proverbial faces. If you think that IQ tests measure intelligence, you are living in the dream land of the early 20th Century Eugenics Movement. Stephen Jay Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" debunked IQ tests back in the mid 80's, and he wasn't the first. In fact, the creator of the first IQ test, Georges Binet, expressly denied that his test measured intelligence.<br /><br />A major problem is that we assume that intelligence is just one thing. The idea of multiple intelligences, which better matches the modular nature of the human brain, has been around for a few decades as well. Any notion of "general intelligence" is deeply flawed. Scientific American recently did a good article, not expressly under the auspices of multiple intelligences theory, but just coming from the observation that people who score high on IQ tests often still do really stupid things.<br /><br />http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rational-and-irrational-thought-the-thinking-that-iq-tests-miss/<br />Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24251942799495805012015-02-02T20:12:38.090-08:002015-02-02T20:12:38.090-08:00I don't even remotely understand Robert anymor...I don't even remotely understand Robert anymore. He's always utterly vague and this latest is a case of a kettle calling the pot black.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18508231403774563082015-02-02T19:05:49.085-08:002015-02-02T19:05:49.085-08:00You know, in the past I've tried to get some s...You know, in the past I've tried to get some smart libertarian friends of mine to come to this site. I'd also considered getting a libertarian webcartoonist who does a great science fiction webcomic to visit as well. But after this latest bout of immaturity by Dr. Brin... I'm glad I held off. <br /><br />And I'm starting to wonder if maybe I need another vacation from Contrary Brin until Dr. Brin realizes he's addicted to his own outrage and is acting churlishly. <br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20463900792753749512015-02-02T16:50:14.711-08:002015-02-02T16:50:14.711-08:00locumranch:
What are you paraphrasing when you ar...locumranch:<br /><br />What are you paraphrasing when you argue that David thinks intelligence can be taught? Are you going from first hand material or from your earlier perceptions of him?<br /><br />Honest question.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43664367812685785942015-02-02T14:22:14.420-08:002015-02-02T14:22:14.420-08:00There are times I really, REALLY miss hanging out ...There are times I really, REALLY miss hanging out on the list that used to discuss "Cerebus", but also many comic books in general. We pretty much got each other's in-jokes.<br /><br />So if I was there, I could say, and be understood and appreciated without having to explain it...<br /><br />"Mom! Cynicalman's being stupid!"LarryHartnoreply@blogger.com