tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post588230178618840589..comments2024-03-18T21:52:45.757-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Take the Wager Challenge...and help push back Culture WarDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger175125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-29010756391832499772012-04-27T13:20:15.686-07:002012-04-27T13:20:15.686-07:00David,
According to the BBC, you may to revisit...David,<br /> According to the BBC, you may to revisit your wager on TARP: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17864566Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75956591387062576172012-04-22T19:05:50.859-07:002012-04-22T19:05:50.859-07:00The device of using a bet isn't to convert all...<em>The device of using a bet isn't to convert all who enter the wager. It is best used to get wingnuts off one's hind quarters and, in public circumstances, to humiliate bullies. </em><br /><br />In this particular election contest, there were the usual retirees on homesteader exemptions (no voter approved taxes charged to their property) urging a no vote, along with the few who never want to pay a tax. And one really pernicious wingnut.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541997928359883625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70417889519579645792012-04-22T14:35:44.206-07:002012-04-22T14:35:44.206-07:00Nothing I've seen from biology, bonobos, etc.,...Nothing I've seen from biology, bonobos, etc., has explained what I mean. Oh, sure, fear of BEING gay might be definitely an impulse leading to reproductive success. But I didn't mean that. I meant the hostility. In fact, as comedians have noted, the more gay guys, the greater my chances with women, etc. And it doesn't explain why so many men give gay women a pass; they don't mind it at all.<br /><br />My hypothesis could in fact be completely wrong. Homophobia could be all socially-tribally implanted, like many believe.<br /><br />Part of my hypothesis is related to a realization I had about my own young puritanical streak. It is often "blamed" on parents, and "repressive" mores, and I sort of thought so when I looked back on my young self but later I began to suspect that my own young disinclination to be sexual was an innate sort of artifact of human neoteny (which certainly does have evolutionary advantages.) Which naturally one then outgrows. I then wondered if homophobia was somehow related to that phenomenon, i.e., equally innate.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21641062566509219792012-04-22T13:49:02.991-07:002012-04-22T13:49:02.991-07:00Jumper:
I have often wondered if there is some bi...Jumper:<br /><i><br />I have often wondered if there is some biological or evolutionary reason for male homophobia specifically. Again, it's not to justify anything: I have a lot of instincts which I rightfully suppress, such as an impulse to kill people who make me angry! Or seize food when I'm very hungry. <br /></i><br /><br />How many of our deeply-engrained biological tendencies are left over from a time--almost all of human history until VERY recently--when the need to widely poulate was of great importance for survival. With seven billion humans on the planet, I see no reason to concern oneself with people finding non-procreative outlets to slake their sexual urges without creating children each time. In the past, that wasn't always the case.<br /><br />Certainly much SOCIAL pressure to not "waste" sexual energy in non-procreative modes comes from the ancient need to keep the tribe viable. Perhaps some of the biological pressure likewise originates with that sort of thing.<br /><br />And I've always suspected that social mores against "spilling one's seed" come from the past when the mechanics of reproduction weren't fully understood, and it might be suspected that bestiality could actually produce human/animal hybrids; and masturbation might produce any number of strange misshapen products of wild "seed" growing on its own. In that light, disgust with male homosexuality might well be related to the fear of impregnating men.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-50535316562716306492012-04-22T12:45:14.085-07:002012-04-22T12:45:14.085-07:00Rob's comment, which appears as #3 on my brows...Rob's comment, which appears as #3 on my browser, tried it and was informed that "Mormons don't gamble!"<br /><br />Well, World-Famous Mormon Mitt Romney does, and one of his first big campaign gaffes was proposing a $10,000 bet with Rick Perry in a televised debate.<br /><br />The device of using a bet isn't to convert all who enter the wager. It is best used to get wingnuts off one's hind quarters and, in public circumstances, to humiliate bullies. <br /><br />"Educational" bets are best made in friendly arguments for trivial payoffs, like the one-dollar bet comic device in the movie <i>Trading Places</i>.Dogmudgeonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-69515657840092289252012-04-22T12:40:26.397-07:002012-04-22T12:40:26.397-07:00At the risk of being seen defending indefensible a...At the risk of being seen defending indefensible aggression or mistreatment of gay people, I have often wondered if there is some biological or evolutionary reason for male homophobia specifically. Again, it's not to justify anything: I have a lot of instincts which I rightfully suppress, such as an impulse to kill people who make me angry! Or seize food when I'm very hungry. Or anything such as that. And what homophobic feelings I had as a youth have pretty much evaporated. And I'm not so sure social pressure for THAT is the sole reason, either. Although it has accelerated the evolution of my social-sexual laissez-faire attitudes, I'd say. (Such anecdotal personal evidence is likely not proof of much.) My suggestion is that if there is such a "natural" reason for homophobia, it's best to research that, lest the entire phenomenon remain misunderstood. There may even be some sort of "aha moment" within reach which could be triggered leading to personal transformations which reduce the incidence of this thing (homophobia).Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75375085268835681842012-04-22T12:35:21.221-07:002012-04-22T12:35:21.221-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41631303551135991832012-04-22T10:58:26.580-07:002012-04-22T10:58:26.580-07:00Dr. Brin, I considered wading into the morass with...Dr. Brin, I considered wading into the morass with Randy B but you've pretty much said.<br /><br />I'd only add that here we have an individual who imagines he can identify the leadership of the entire "left" in a relative handful of individuals who support extreme, Islamists.At the same time he admits that there is no single "line" unifying said "left".<br /><br />If there is no unifying line,it follows that there can be no unified "leadership."<br /><br />Randy B has made a hash of his own argument and appears incapable of recognizing the fact.WB Reevesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68642600643022940322012-04-22T10:54:34.581-07:002012-04-22T10:54:34.581-07:00"...If I were to insist on laws against anyth...<i>"...If I were to insist on laws against anything I don't personally like, no one else would ever had any fun. "</i><br /><br />... sounds like a Twilight Zone episode!<br /><br />But seriously ... we all have feelings about sex, and a lot of it is unreasonable. But it's equally unreasonable to expect anyone to change their feelings (...should we thank the Russkies for proving for us that no matter how much propaganda you pump out, you really can't create The New Soviet Man???)<br /><br />What we can and should do is expect people to behave fairly, with a side order of not worrying too much about how other people are having fun. It is true, and will always be true, that thinking about some kinds of sex gives me the jim-jams, but the solution is simple: think of something else.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68594011070647116152012-04-22T08:32:00.076-07:002012-04-22T08:32:00.076-07:00Rewinn makes a good point. It is usually pointles...Rewinn makes a good point. It is usually pointless to argue politics on the internet if your point is to change the other guy's mind. The point SHOULD be to influence third-party listeners by making clear the night-and-day difference between your argument and the other guy's.<br /><br />On the gay stuff...I used to think my heterosexuality was "normal", but as I've encountered more and more frank talk on the subject, I've come to believe I have an ABnormal tendency toward attraction to girls only. In the sense that perfectly normal heterosexual males talk about how they can "admire the male form" or "Woudln't kick Mick Jagger out of bed for eating crackers", and I just have no sense of what they're talking about. GIRLS are attractive; boys are not.<br /><br />Coming to realize that my own tendencies here might be as UNnatural as gayness is gave me a new sense of why it's best to be tolerant of all variations on the theme rather than insisting that my own variation is the only deserving one. The thought of gay male sex disturbs me (and like Dr Brin, I can't seem to turn that dial), but so does eating brocolli. If I were to insist on laws against anything I don't personally like, no one else would ever had any fun.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36931016761011507662012-04-22T05:55:57.567-07:002012-04-22T05:55:57.567-07:00Paul451 makes a point for decency. Allied treatmen...Paul451 makes a point for decency. Allied treatment of German POWs engendered real respect for the U.S. because of its decency. Which paid off for generations.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72784362083655379562012-04-21T20:42:20.826-07:002012-04-21T20:42:20.826-07:00@Janus Daniels - I suggest the point is not to get...@Janus Daniels - I suggest the point is not to get a wingnut to accept a bet. They won't, as a rule, and if they do, they will weasel out of a fair adjudication or simply take off on total non sequiturs. That's been my experience; take a look at the torture-faboi above who, compelled to acknowledge that a phonecall from Amnesty International would not persuade the Taliban to stop killing people, now demands that the call be made because it would persuade the Taliban to safeguard women and children ... and Amnesty's purported failure to make such a call means that I really support torture! This makes no logical sense to an outside observer, but it has enough of the structure of a response to persuade the true believer that he actually said something. Persuasion is not a rational process!<br /><br />BUT: the point is not to take their money (...although that would be nice ;-) The point is to demonstrate to rational 3rd parties that (A) you're right; (B) you're willing to put your money where your mouth is; and (C) you're opponent isn't neither A nor B.<br />A secondary goal may be to convert your opponent, but it is rare for a True Believer to be able to change.<br /><br /> That's o.k. Cults die out when they can no longer recruit, and this sort of bet is an excellent sort of counter-recruitment.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24911076338289872022012-04-21T18:32:58.393-07:002012-04-21T18:32:58.393-07:00How do you persuade a wingnut to take one of these...How do you persuade a wingnut to take one of these bets? I've tried that many times over the last decade. They change the subject, reject any neutral party, reject every sane source of information, etc.Janus Danielshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15253124365227852722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26910434039573411932012-04-21T16:51:30.022-07:002012-04-21T16:51:30.022-07:00Dr. Brin, I really respect you and your contrary v...Dr. Brin, I really respect you and your contrary viewpoints. Your books helped raise me. And, while I would never want to judge somebody for their visceral reactions (I have some of my own that many would judge me for), your view on men is puzzling and a little troubling.<br /><br />I agree with you that sactimonious lecturing and judging and litmus-testing is counter productive to the cause of inclusion and progress. I get annoyed with it even when it's directed at those I'm at emnity with, and it's clear how it repulses those it is directed at.<br /><br />I agree with you that a person who treats gays simply as fellow citizens, without discrimination and without contempt, has discharged their ethical duty toward them, no matter how they feel inside.<br /><br />But, though you are under no ethical obligation whatsoever to change your attitude toward men and gays, you may *benefit* from changing it.<br /><br />I get hit on by gay men fairly often. When I was younger, I had some leftover mental baggage from my upbringing, and this really squicked me. The reaction felt 'visceral.' But now it doesn't bother me at all. Moreover, this has nothing to do with developing the mental defenses you say women develop: these occurences are just as 'socially ackward' as ever; the only difference is that I no longer have any residual attitudes about "abominations before the Lord."<br /><br />Again, I am not condemning you. It's just that you'd probably be happier if you loosened up a bit and stopped being disgusted by the people around you. Disgust is an unpleasent emotion. Let it go.<br /><br />You said, "when we all get less uptight, then maybe IN MALES the thing will be more like a dial." The thing that puzzled me is, what are you so uptight for in the first place? Why not be less uptight? What's so hard about it?David McC.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41909943692425160342012-04-21T14:05:54.632-07:002012-04-21T14:05:54.632-07:00Rob H.,
"So, Hypnos, it is perfectly okay for...Rob H.,<br /><i>"So, Hypnos, it is perfectly okay for German soldiers to have fought and killed Americans, Brits, Aussies, French Resistance, and others because their uber-nation that Hitler built on the back of conquest was being invaded by the people he pissed off? It's okay for German soldiers to fight the Allies and try to prevent them from capturing concentration camps and the like?"</i><br /><br />Well, yeah. Ordinary German soldiers were not punished for fighting against the allied invasion. If they fought to the death, they died honourably. If they fought until wounded, or surrender, they were imprisoned until the end of the war under the rules of the Geneva Convention, and then released without punishment. Even the guards who defended the death-camps were not executed for defending the camps, if they were killed it was for specific crimes they committed in the camps.<br /><br />And that's not unusual. For a long time after WWI there was great respect between Australia and Turkey over the shared history of the Gallipoli landing (largely gone now.)Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64039269276043745922012-04-21T11:37:23.832-07:002012-04-21T11:37:23.832-07:00I bet my life against claims of a conspiracy freak...I bet my life against claims of a conspiracy freak who claims that the artificial sweetener neotame is a deadly poison. <br /><br />https://thetruthergirls.wordpress.com/2011/02/12/neotame-a-sweet-new-poison/<br /><br />I chose a ridiculously high dose which should be deadly if this is anything like what she claims but which clearly should be safe based on the scientific literature.cosmicaughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06590208806454056248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5100901416343691012012-04-21T03:23:41.830-07:002012-04-21T03:23:41.830-07:00RandyB,
Resistance against occupying forces means...RandyB,<br /><br />Resistance against occupying forces means resistance against occupying forces, i.e. killing Americans. Unfortunately those very same movements were also engaged in wholesale civil war (ignited by the American invasion, but long simmering and harking back to the British occupation). And I said I consider it legitimate (the resistance, not the slaughtering of civilians in civil war), not that I necessarily approve of it. In general, I'd prefer for people to think a lot longer and harder before engaging into violence, no matter the act of aggression they have been subjected to. If my country had just been annihilated by a nuclear first strike and I was sitting in an underground bunker with a huge red button in front on me ready to unleash retaliation on the aggressor, I like to think I would not push it. But I recognize the right for other people to think and act differently. <br /><br />Also, this might come as a shock to you, but "elections" do not equal "democracy", or legitimacy for the elected government. Almost all the States on the planet hold regular elections, less than a third are considered democracies. I'd like to hear your opinion on the legitimacy of the regularly elected Hamas government. <br /><br />The rest is you putting words into my mouth, conflating the fringe with the mainstream, and denying that the US even committed abuses. So, yeah, I rest my case.Hypnoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409179274970587232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1982596886562175042012-04-21T03:22:11.466-07:002012-04-21T03:22:11.466-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Hypnoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409179274970587232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-6877486969221752952012-04-21T00:02:22.907-07:002012-04-21T00:02:22.907-07:00Dr Brin:
Notice in movie love scenes, 90% of the ...Dr Brin:<br /><i><br />Notice in movie love scenes, 90% of the camera's attention is on the woman. Both men and women in the audience want to see her body, her face, her reactions. Think about that<br /></i><br /><br />When I was an adolescent in the late 60s/early 70s, I became aware of the (Sean Connery) James Bond movies, wherein the dashing Bond scored with multiple beautiful women per film. I expected this to be a men's genre only, and was quite intrigued to find that BOTH my mother and father were avid fans--that there was an appeal there for adult women as well as for adult men.<br /><br />So in the late 70s, when I encountered many feminist college girls, I was actually surprised to find that they were NOT fans of the Bond type movies. I shouldn't have found that surprising, and I probably wouldn't have except for my earlier observation about how the films seemed to appeal to both sexes.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30651413623219485402012-04-20T18:33:58.773-07:002012-04-20T18:33:58.773-07:00Rob I appreciate your very well expressed position...Rob I appreciate your very well expressed position. And indeed, when we all get less uptight, then maybe IN MALES the thing will be more like a dial. Look even at my far end, I can appreciate the visual appeal of handsome dudes. Heck, I can watch Conan (the Barbarian one) all day!)<br /><br />And yes, even though for most women, most of the time, it is a "pick one male to elevate above all others" switch, there surely is bleed-over and dial-like qualities. My wife enjoys a (very) little bit of distracting beefcake. (But note how much more subtle and varied they are! A confident wink means more than any amount of muscle mass.)<br /><br />Still, the point is the same. Maleness is at best worrisome and problematic, and often gross and pushy and disgusting. The onus is on us to learn good behavior and good grooming, still we will never be *intrinsically* attractive and un-worrisome.<br /><br />Hetero women and gay men DO SOMETHING mental to make males attractive. I adore the first fact and remain puzzled but totally tolerant of the latter. Diff-rent stroke. Enjoy in health.<br /><br />But I can't do it and see no reason why I should be impugn for that fact.<br /><br />OH A SECOND POINT. Notice in movie love scenes, 90% of the camera's attention is on the woman. Both men and women in the audience want to see her body, her face, her reactions. Think about that.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44746665534958061392012-04-20T17:58:15.034-07:002012-04-20T17:58:15.034-07:00It's not a switch, Dr. Brin. It's a dial.
...It's not a switch, Dr. Brin. It's a dial.<br /><br />I say this because I can see the attractiveness of the male form. I can flirt with guys (usually my male friends). But when it comes to physical contact? No. A good (hetro) friend and I joke all the time, and every so often he'll jokingly put his hand on my leg (we're teasing his fiancee, who's said he's only allowed to cheat on her with me. Yes, I've odd friends, though very good ones). And I have to resist every urge to shudder and swat away said hand.<br /><br />How much of this evident bisexual tendency of mine is due to my having studied art and drawn (and thus having a tendency to turn people into shapes in my mind, construct how they are put together, and consider how they could be drawn, if only I'd practiced that minor talent of mine!) and can consider things artistically and how much is actual bisexuality, I have no idea. But I can understand the "flirt but no touching" bit that goes on with some women. And I can respect that.<br /><br />But then, I've never said I'm normal.<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2574379315683044862012-04-20T16:13:25.841-07:002012-04-20T16:13:25.841-07:00I have posted a new blog about many cool things. ...I have posted a new blog about many cool things. This thread can stay open a while, if anybody like.<br /><br />Let's keep these topics here.<br /><br />onward.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84350893810198081962012-04-20T16:11:49.974-07:002012-04-20T16:11:49.974-07:00Okay here it is.
Male human beings are gross and ...Okay here it is.<br /><br />Male human beings are gross and dangerous. <br /><br />That's a silly and fantastic exaggeration and oversimplification. Yet there you are. Nearly all the violence and perversion that takes place is perpetrated by us guys. This has nothing to do with homosexuality. It just is.<br /><br />In fact, all the stats for gay men are totally OPPOSITE to those of gay women. STD rates, HIV, and promiscuity and yes violence and murder. Gay men may sometimes put on affectations. But in fact, they are in many ways the most masculine kind of men.<br /><br />Frankly, I find it hard to picture why women ever want to have anything to do with us, at all! There must be some kind of inner SWITCH that gets thrown, when they decide "THIS particular male gets to touch me."<br /><br />The power of that switch has to be pretty darn strong. It elevates one particular husband or lover out of the sea of gross fellows who "if you try to touch me you should die." We need the switch, in order to be a pair-bonded species. But every time it happens it's amazing.<br /><br /> No wonder women MYTHOLOGIZE the switch! Talk about it (romance) endlessly and fixate on it. <br /><br />They must also grow up knowing that males WILL approach them, making unwelcome overtures. Learning to deal with that, especially during prime repro years for a good looking woman, is a difficult task and most women learn a lot of mental tricks. Above all, how not to over-react to overtures that - while foolish or pushy, weren't made with vile intent.<br /><br /> It's NOT easy! Remember, males are dangerous and (until the switch is thrown) pretty gross. "All these smelly hairy guys want to TOUCH me! Ew!" <br /><br />Now dig this. Your average hetero male has not had years of experience developing subtle and complex and thick-skinned response sets, to being approached by smelly hairy aggressive grabby males. He doesn't like the idea and he HAS NO SWITCH! <br /><br />Some of us have developed some semblance of the woman's ability to stay calm and courteous and balanced and thick skinned... and we hope our hetero bros over in Red America will start to do so, too. <br /><br />It's the RIGHT THING TO DO! Still, we know it's hard. And sometimes we understand how women feel about having a gross male invade our space with unwelcome overtures.<br /><br />Notice I have said NOTHING unfriendly or critical of gay men. What appears to be the case is that they have the switch. They can throw it much easier than women can. Dogma has it that they MUST throw it. I won't argue that point.<br /><br />By that way of thinking, it is hetero men who are limited. We do not have (or want) the over-ride that lets human beings find a male adult human - smelly, hairy, grosss, yucky - attractive. We blink in dull surprise that such a thing is even possible! Yet we are amazed by our luck that a woman occasionally can aim that switch at us.<br /><br />I do not begrudge gay men having the switch. I wish they would understand that NOT having it is NOT MY FAULT. And without it, I must see males (including myself) the way any logical person would.<br /><br />As gross.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19574911699679285942012-04-20T15:48:30.626-07:002012-04-20T15:48:30.626-07:00Non rockers need not apply, but this man said what...Non rockers need not apply, but this man said what I think<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJVlrhWaZhAJumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60256999031946323282012-04-20T15:08:48.107-07:002012-04-20T15:08:48.107-07:00Just on the kissing thing, I think it's damned...Just on the kissing thing, I think it's damned impolite for any couple to exchange sexually arousing kisses or sexually arousing petting in public (I am speaking of their arousal, not mine). <br /><br />I don't think we should outlaw it but I will certainly shun anyone doing it outside of their private spaces. If they want to take their act on stage and charge a fee I don't mind, but out in public it affects other people and shouldn't be indulged in. <br /><br />I don't care if they are two men, two women, or a man and a woman, it's impolite and improper socially.<br /><br />I occasionally observe such behaviour on public transit, but so far there were always people of two genders involved. I am tempted to take my cell phone out and record them for posterity, after all if they want to indulge in public sexual acts I should be entitled to assume that they don't mind my recording it and selling it for profit, if I can. <br /><br />I have resisted this temptation - so far.Ed Seedhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193005256681783842noreply@blogger.com