tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post5478534079607298662..comments2024-03-29T00:39:31.629-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Toward sapience: A science of Uplift? But first... classic "uplifting" novels!David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-13038151794052246722021-06-01T18:49:50.073-07:002021-06-01T18:49:50.073-07:00onward
onwardonward<br /><br />onwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-4502919804649752222021-06-01T12:57:01.100-07:002021-06-01T12:57:01.100-07:00I noticed about the FB thread on this post is that...I noticed about the FB thread on this post is that a fair number of folks would much rather not accept our messing around with non-humans, yet it happens. It happened with the dog, it is happening with the bonobo. Over a century ago we were convinced that the mountain gorilla couldn't exist, but then we found the thigh bone of one. Changed our attitude, changed our acceptance. In short we became comfortable with their existence and they in turn learned to accept us. Now we find gorilla fathers drafting us into watching their kids.<br /><br />The same with the greater panda, the platypus, and the koala. Locally we're finding California sea lions reaching out to humans, much as sea leopards from Antarctica are reaching out to people in the great southern sea.<br /><br />Which leads us to the Sasquatch, an animal that apparently frightens us and whom we frighten. But I expect that when we have learned to accept them and they us, we going to see North America's other great ape becoming a big part of our lives. Just remember that panicking limits us all too much.Alan Kellogghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09076137198867030687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41584075760383831082021-06-01T11:40:00.036-07:002021-06-01T11:40:00.036-07:00Re: embrace universal randomness
Good luck with t...<br /><br />Re: embrace universal randomness<br /><br />Good luck with the lilies of the field thing; didn't work for me. I was fine with rendering unto Caesar until I prodded the beach rubble and saw no Caesar there. Not 'mere' randomness, not divinity, but a view of life with, well, grandeur. CB is one of a very few blogs where this is basic knowledge, and the debate has moved on to bigger things.<br /><br />The reason that old-timey uplift stories disturbed me was not the horror of humanity suddenly arising in the non-human, but rather the door swinging the other way: what dreams may come ... <i>from them</i>.<br /><br />Way behind in my reading, but I suspect that OGH explored this many years ago. Pinnacle of evolution mindsets don't consider such questions. <br /><br /><br />Re: our amazingly unlikely existence<br /><br />From a subjective view, yes. From an objective view, much less so. <i>Something</i> had originate and evolve, it's kind of what nature does. This anthropic solipsism is a strong argument against the empty universe explanation of the Great Silence.scidatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04992209167553267488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-3978200771757127872021-06-01T10:40:42.079-07:002021-06-01T10:40:42.079-07:00@Dr Brin,
Yes, "secular agnostic" is pr...@Dr Brin,<br /><br />Yes, "secular agnostic" is probably a better description for me as well. I prefer "skeptic". It's not that I know there is no God (though I don't know there is God either). What I don't believe in is <b>scripture</b>.<br /><br />When arguing with people who would label us all "atheists", though, I prefer to eat the label rather divert the argument to semantics.<br /><br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23925922468543058142021-06-01T08:21:33.816-07:002021-06-01T08:21:33.816-07:00Same with us fiercely theological secular agnostic...Same with us fiercely theological secular agnostics.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70346561313117465942021-06-01T06:45:50.579-07:002021-06-01T06:45:50.579-07:00locumranch:
Instead, I plan to withdrawal from pu...locumranch:<br /><i><br />Instead, I plan to withdrawal from public discourse, <br /></i><br /><br />Woo hoo!<br /><br /><i><br />I'll check back in a few months though.<br /></i><br /><br />D'oh!<br /><br /><i><br />...embrace universal randomness and dwell on how amazing unlikely was our birth, <br /></i><br /><br />I've often related to my daughter how unlikely my existence--and therefore hers--is. My dad's mother was a refugee in WWI, interned in a Siberian camp when she was four years old. My mom's high school class was too big, so some including her were graduated early, so she started college in the spring semester instead of the following fall, therefore overlapping with my dad's one year at the same college, and thus meeting him. My wife and I overlapped at the job where we met by only eight months.<br /><br />Dr Manhattan in <i>Watchmen</i> referred to any individual's existence as a thermodynamic miracle. I don't disagree.<br /><br /><i><br />because once we dispense with the belief that intelligence is life's raison d'etre or ultimate purpose, then there's little purpose up in space and bugger all down here on Earth.<br /></i><br /><br />You continually accuse us secular atheists of deriving purpose from on high. Purpose is what we make it and where we find it. I work with what they gave me.<br />Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55684483139656777322021-05-31T23:16:00.312-07:002021-05-31T23:16:00.312-07:00I'm also skeptical about the chess-players bur...I'm also skeptical about the chess-players burning 6000 calories during a day. On first read, given that our bodies are about 55-65% water, my assumption was that the chess players lost 2 or 3 pounds of water weight (getting dehydrated on coffee and tea and not replenishing.) BTW I've never been to a chess tournament. But I've got a super sniffer, and I notice my teenage son and his friends can turn the air quality of a large room into Mordor in about 30 min from stress hormones if they're sitting statically playing video games. Does anyone here know? My imagination is telling me real chess tournaments must have a sweet and sour odor with a little hint of cigarette smoke, periodontitis, Folgers, steamy pickled sauerkraut with just a spritz of hot dog water. <br /><br />Sorry, back to 6000 calories. I read that the physiologist who conducted the study of topic, noted that the found a "tripling of breathing rates." This is key. But they should have measured in carbon. Both the amount of carbon in their food and the amount of C02 they were expelling in their breath to figure out much non-water weight they were losing. It seems like they extrapolated that if the chess players lose x amount of carbon a day via 2000 calories and on a match day their respiration triples 3x would = 6000 calories. But that seems like a very 8th grade algebra over simplification. I don't think they'd be breathing at the tripled rate the entire math. Also, if a marathon runner expends less than 3000 calories during a race. Err...again, we should be measuring in carbon. <br /><br />BTW am I off base to observe that Locum might have a bit of a "Ballardian" outlook on things? Which makes me wonder what kind of dynamic we'd have if JG were alive and participating in this blog. Or did he have a sunny outlook outside his writing? <br /><br /><br />Slim Moldiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04804029818709230857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-52480839469711789912021-05-31T21:49:25.094-07:002021-05-31T21:49:25.094-07:00locum is still on vitamins and saying things that ...locum is still on vitamins and saying things that are true in their own right.... and yet stuill utterly zero sum. As if anyone here believes the nonsense that he claims "everyone" believes. <br /><br />"We are pinnacles of evolution, we are special, we are the best of the best," we tell ourselves, mostly because we cannot bear to credit our successes to mere randomness..."<br /><br />Um, speak for yourself guy. No one here thinks anything like that and I am a fierce critic of teleology, which is your cult's thing,. It's not ours.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78623633177307708662021-05-31T21:35:37.155-07:002021-05-31T21:35:37.155-07:00Quite inadvertently, Larry's conditional accep...<br />Quite inadvertently, Larry's conditional acceptance of the Drunkard's Walk of randomness that we call Evolution provides an excellent example of survivorship bias, the logical error that we make when we concentrate on the things that made it past an (often) arbitrary selection process while overlooking those that didn’t, the assumption being that the survivor is somehow chosen to survive by god, providence or the universe, simply because they survived.<br /><br />This leads many to falsely conclude that their survival was preordained -- specifically because of their (1) empathy, (2) intelligence, (3) morals, (4) athletic prowess, (5) opposable thumbs or (6) birth identity, mostly because these are the qualities that they value -- even though there are millions of similarly empathetic, intelligent, moral & near identical thumb possessors mouldering in shallow graves everywhere.<br /><br />"We are pinnacles of evolution, we are special, we are the best of the best," we tell ourselves, mostly because we cannot bear to credit our successes to mere randomness, and so we try to share our successes with other people & other species, by demanding that they conform to the characteristics that we value, in order to prove to ourselves that we were chosen to survive by a beneficent universe rather than uncaring randomness.<br /><br />Here, I was going to construct an extended organ grinder's monkey analogy, one that emphasized the absurdity of forcing tricycles on bears and thumbs on dolphins but, as I become a senior citizen this weekend, I do not have the heart. Instead, I plan to withdrawal from public discourse, embrace universal randomness and dwell on how amazing unlikely was our birth, because once we dispense with the belief that intelligence is life's <i>raison d'etre</i> or ultimate purpose, then there's little purpose up in space and bugger all down here on Earth.<br /><br />I'll check back in a few months though.<br /><br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34729760129199071722021-05-31T21:14:11.603-07:002021-05-31T21:14:11.603-07:00Hi Alfred
These two are contradictory!
Heh. I can...Hi Alfred<br />These two are contradictory!<br /><br />Heh. I can easily believe our brains chew up a large fraction of the calories we consume daily. I can see the evidence by sitting in front of a thermal IR camera. Large muscles don't get hot until they are used and then they radiate like mad. Our skulls are always at it, though. Hot. 8)<br /><br />Resupplying neuro-transmitters isn't anything like doing actual physical work against gravity and friction. Real work expends a huge number of calories. Sitting there thinking harder for long periods? Nah. I'm very skeptical. Why? I'd be a damn site skinnier.<br /><br />I suspect the difference is that the brain uses a lot of calories just "idling" - related to the housekeeping loads and when we do "heavy thinking" we are not actually using additional food<br /><br />The brain running hot that you mention is a sign that its eating calories - and those calories are coming from the gut - as neurotransmitters or as sugar its still calories that we have to eat <br /><br />I think its the throwing requirement - which requires the "answers" much faster than simply chasing something<br />The way we can get the faster answers was by doubling up on the amount of brains - paralleling the problem - do that a couple of times and we have human brain sizes<br /><br />Sitting thinking and planning may require that big brain but I'm not sure it is actually making it "work" harder<br />Your thought experiment about an infra red camera<br />It would be very interesting to have somebody sit in front of one of those cameras while we gave him/her different problems to solve <br />duncan cairncrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153725128216947145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25833273605479561632021-05-31T19:06:15.334-07:002021-05-31T19:06:15.334-07:00Just to clarify, I was referring to historical hun...Just to clarify, I was referring to historical hunting of wild dolphins, not any subsequent 'culling' of uplifted T. Amicus. I recall it was briefly covered in SR as a potentially uncomfortable history lesson. The 'fins' shrugged it off. Whether they really would is a moot point, of course, but the reference added depth without being an essential part of the story.<br /><br /><i>"This is a real problem with creative people as they age..." </i><br /><br />... and so Niven created the Pak Protector.* ;-)<br /><br />* I shall now retire to my little piece of Melbourne lockdown with a bag of Thallium salted kumara crisps.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11865141623359910292021-05-31T18:56:21.604-07:002021-05-31T18:56:21.604-07:00Something interesting, and a name I used to see in... Something interesting, and a name I used to see in these comments:<br /><br />https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2021/05/28/are-planets-with-continuous-surface-habitability-rare/<br /><br />Perhaps, in the time it's got to take to build a warp drive without blowing ourselves up, we'll work out how to tweak our immune systems to deal with extra solar life.Tim H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12380916635831994159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24373529188676298932021-05-31T17:49:03.389-07:002021-05-31T17:49:03.389-07:00Duncan,
Heh. I can easily believe our brains chew...Duncan,<br /><br />Heh. I can easily believe our brains chew up a large fraction of the calories we consume daily. I can see the evidence by sitting in front of a thermal IR camera. Large muscles don't get hot until they are used and then they radiate like mad. Our skulls are always at it, though. Hot. 8)<br /><br />Resupplying neuro-transmitters isn't anything like doing actual physical work against gravity and friction. Real work expends a huge number of calories. Sitting there thinking harder for long periods? Nah. I'm very skeptical. Why? I'd be a damn site skinnier.<br /><br />There is an old rule correlating muscle mass to calorie consumption that works moderately well on average. More muscle, more calories needed daily to basic activities. To first order, one fits the demand 'curve' with a straight line whose intercept can't be zero... because we have big brains. Lots of things matter (act as dimensions) for daily calorie consumption, but those two help set a floor for the space of possibilities.<br /><br />The ONLY times I've had calorie demands that high were...<br /><br />1. Growing up and trying to add inches to my height in one year. (Hormone requirement)<br />2. Living in a VERY cold climate. North Dakota winters require more than coats and heavy boots. (Heating requirement)<br />3. Heavy exercise. (Muscle demands)<br /><br /><br />If I sit and think deep for long periods, I tend to gain weight on a daily intake of anything higher than about 2000 calories/day.<br /><br /><br />I suspect the 'high calorie demand' story involving big brains comes from the fact that our guts have high demands too... if we eat a more vegetarian diet. Guts and Brains competing in an evolutionary sense could plausibly be true.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45142778319219412452021-05-31T16:02:30.531-07:002021-05-31T16:02:30.531-07:00Alfred Differ
That is harking back to the old bel...Alfred Differ<br /><br />That is harking back to the old belief that the brain is an organ to cool the blood!<br /><br />I would like to see the data behind the 20% of the calories - but I can easily see where it is plausible <br /><br />"It's the neuro-transmitters as the limiting factor" - <br />and unless I am very mistaken those are very energy intensive chemicals that are created using the calories that we eat<br /><br />duncan cairncrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14153725128216947145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20541515690176205672021-05-31T13:32:52.454-07:002021-05-31T13:32:52.454-07:00scidata:
I'm certainly a Brin reader, just no...scidata:<br /><i><br />I'm certainly a Brin reader, just not a very good one. It has taken me well over a year to read EARTH, almost done. <br /></i><br /><br />I'm like that too. It took me over a month to read <i>The Postman</i> the first time, because I prefer to savor books of that type, and to get used to living inside their world.<br /><br />My wife (who wasn't my wife yet) read it in its entirety on a five hour plane ride. So we're like Jack and Mrs. Spratt that way.<br /><br /><i><br />Better literature than Asimov, but that's not saying much -- old Isaac poked fun at his own writing style.<br /></i><br /><br />Uh, yeah...er...*choke*...ahem!<br /><br />I <b>like</b> Asimov's early writing style.<br /><br /><i><br />SUNDIVER looks sort of like the Stargate Universe ship 'Destiny', which scooped stellar coronas for fuel.<br /></i><br /><br />I've wondered whether the opening sequence of the fifth season of ST:TNG--Kern's Klingon vessel skirting a star and luring the pursuing vessel into a solar flare--took any inspiration from <i>Sundiver</i>. I know that the online comic strip "Quantum Vibe" had some explicit references to our host's novel.<br /><br />* * * <br /><br />Pappenheimer:<br /><i><br />Re: Dave Sim - I read Cerebus for years, but the guy lost me when he started delving into conspiracy theory about AIDS and showed other signs of vanishing up his own tailpipe. This is a real problem with creative people as they age and (I suspect) stop carving new brain pathways. Luckily, I'm immune...not having much creativity to lose.<br /></i><br /><br />I had many political arguments with Dave Sim--some of them awfully personal--but I always tried to argue with him within his own framing. Where I couldn't do that any longer was when he insisted that feminism was responsible for the state of affairs that a six-year-old (Elian Gonzoles) could be said to seek political asylum and not be laughed out of court. Back before feminists took over everything, a six-year-old would have been whatever his father said he was.<br /><br />When I reminded him that it was conservative Republicans who were arguing for the child to remain in the USA--<b>against</b> the Cuban father's wishes--and his mortal enemies, Bill and Hillary Clinton, who insisted that the child be returned to his father, Dave insisted that that was not possible, because feminists can't abide father's rights. Which I suppose prefigured the current Republican mindset, which says that if the facts don't fit your ideology, then the facts must be wrong. That day, to me anyway, Dave went from "tireless defender of truth, no matter how unpleasant" to simply "conservative ideologue." The former was at least interesting--the latter is a dime a dozen here in the States.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-51321532720445277652021-05-31T13:14:03.893-07:002021-05-31T13:14:03.893-07:00" This is a real problem with creative people..." This is a real problem with creative people as they age..." <br /><br />HOW DARE YOU!!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!! Why, I can concoct a wildly plausible conspiracy theory in five seconds that'd curl your...<br /><br />... oh... whit. That's your point, isn't it? Sigh. Never mind!<br /><br />;-)<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44513662358736270422021-05-31T10:58:15.663-07:002021-05-31T10:58:15.663-07:00David,
I think Tony might have been referring to ...David,<br /><br />I think Tony might have been referring to the destruction caused by human fishing fleets. As an aside, dolphin treatment differed even in the Ancient world - I've seen Minoan wall paintings (in Knossos) of dolphins with human eyes, while the nobility of Phoenician Tyre apparently hunted dolphins for sport.<br /><br />Re: Dave Sim - I read Cerebus for years, but the guy lost me when he started delving into conspiracy theory about AIDS and showed other signs of vanishing up his own tailpipe. This is a real problem with creative people as they age and (I suspect) stop carving new brain pathways. Luckily, I'm immune...not having much creativity to lose.Pappenheimernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66190170709066289852021-05-31T10:24:54.574-07:002021-05-31T10:24:54.574-07:00@ Alfred Differ
Thanks for the SUNDIVER recommend...@ Alfred Differ<br /><br />Thanks for the SUNDIVER recommendation. I'm certainly a Brin reader, just not a very good one. It has taken me well over a year to read EARTH, almost done. Of course, FOUNDATION'S TRIUMPH is my favourite, partly due to the bang-on AI content, but mostly because it felt like reading the original trilogy again. Skeptical optimism played out using flawed yet heroic actors. Better literature than Asimov, but that's not saying much -- old Isaac poked fun at his own writing style.<br /><br />SUNDIVER looks sort of like the Stargate Universe ship 'Destiny', which scooped stellar coronas for fuel. Stargate, ST Discovery, The Expanse, etc were filmed in Vancouver and Toronto, and I had/have a few tangential studio connections.<br /><br />Old-timey Uplift stories always creeped me out, that's all I was saying.<br /><br />scidatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04992209167553267488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-6804352617719104122021-05-31T09:56:26.337-07:002021-05-31T09:56:26.337-07:00Pappenheimer:
I tell you what, if we do uplift do...Pappenheimer:<br /><i><br />I tell you what, if we do uplift dogs, we are going to spend the first century or two apologizing (looking at Pekingese, Bedlington Terriers and other, weirder breeds).<br /></i><br /><br />When my daughter was a baby, it was the George W Bush era, and I kept apologizing to her for bringing her into this world. Now she and her contemporaries might just be the ones to save it.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20592945908493936542021-05-31T09:40:37.225-07:002021-05-31T09:40:37.225-07:00Tony, Tursiops amicus is a branched species of fal...Tony, Tursiops amicus is a branched species of fallow Tursiops Truncatus, the main population protected fallow and natural across Earth. The sub-species can be viewed as 'volunteers' and yes, breeding rights are controlled in uplift. I deal with the uncomforting moral quandaries of this and you may not like them, your privilege. But there was no "culling" by any definition I am familiar with.<br /><br /><br />But yeah, I've been getting that shit lately. Showing a future Earth society in which diversity in our councils and sages has been broadened across multiple species, deriving a wider range of wisdom and insight, is apparently not good enough anymore. David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78452069489233482482021-05-31T08:40:15.235-07:002021-05-31T08:40:15.235-07:00Seen on Stonekettle's Twitter feed...
@SenTed...Seen on Stonekettle's Twitter feed...<br /><br />@SenTedCruz (on vaccine passports) :<br /><i><br />Your health decisions are yours to make. <br /><br />It shouldn't be your boss, the government, or anyone else forcing you to make those decisions.<br /></i><br /><br />@Stonekettle<br /><i><br />Irony jumps the tracks, careens down the embankment, crashes through a circus, hurdles over a mink farm, and plows into the river where it catches fire, rolls over, and explodes raining down burning weasels and flaming clown shrapnel across the countryside.<br /></i>Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30825143599725003562021-05-31T07:04:52.282-07:002021-05-31T07:04:52.282-07:00locumranch:
Evolution is driven by randomness -- ...locumranch:<br /><i><br />Evolution is driven by randomness -- a Drunkard's Walk, if you will<br /></i><br /><br />Well kind of, but with a twist. For a more accurate analogue, you would need many drunkards, some of whose random stumbles down sewers or into traffic remove them from the pack, while the ones who happen to avoid such pitfalls continue on, which leads to a species of uber-drunkard who tend to stumble in self-perpetuating manners.<br /><br />Or take the present Republican Party (please!). While they've won some and lost some throughout the last century, they've managed to win specific victories which lead inexorably to more victories--control of state legislatures allowing biasing of federal elections allowing capture of the supreme court, for example. Thus, apartheid gains an evolutionary advantage, eventually killing off and supplanting its rival, democracy.<br /><br />I see how that works.Larry Harthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01058877428309776731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-32811123831582513102021-05-31T06:27:58.025-07:002021-05-31T06:27:58.025-07:00re. dog apologies: I seem to recall Startide Risin...re. dog apologies: I seem to recall Startide Rising featured a few uncomfortable references to the habitual culling of dolphins by humans.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9609470048785612812021-05-31T02:09:42.307-07:002021-05-31T02:09:42.307-07:00scidata,
I recommend you at least try Sundiver. I...scidata,<br /><br />I recommend you at least try Sundiver. It's kinda fun. Got me hooked enough to recognize a style before I remembered the author's name. Bought the next book and thought "Gee... this feels familiar." <br /><br />And it was a bit more than 'mere' industrial sabotage. 8)Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72110866241898033602021-05-31T02:05:46.619-07:002021-05-31T02:05:46.619-07:00Pappenheimer,
Much of our own Terra was barely ha...Pappenheimer,<br /><br />Much of our own Terra was barely habitable for hominids too. Without our tech, this last hominid variant would be highly confined.<br /><br />She's probably right about other worlds, but I'd extend that to say she's right about this world too. Dark skins are important in equatorial regions, but killers at temperate latitudes. We've made MANY changes to ourselves already. 8)Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.com