tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post5315674749564453051..comments2024-03-18T21:52:45.757-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Omniveillance and Ubiquitous Law EnforcementDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger69125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-13871801906689342012015-01-14T11:47:14.100-08:002015-01-14T11:47:14.100-08:00onwardonwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80784941977076046752015-01-14T10:53:57.800-08:002015-01-14T10:53:57.800-08:00PSB,
On another forum I frequent, it is my chosen...PSB,<br /><br />On another forum I frequent, it is my chosen duty to annoy the people who post short responses. My rule is simple. If I think what you wrote is interesting enough for a serious reply, you get a minimum three paragraph response. I'm in second place there for number of posts, but I think I have the top guy beat if you count keystrokes. 8)<br /><br />Serious thought deserves the length required to create serious responses. It's an act of love in the sense that we are appreciating others who make the effort to share with us.<br /><br />It helps to be able to type fast too. 8)Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39389010083836196352015-01-14T10:42:00.455-08:002015-01-14T10:42:00.455-08:00locumranch,
...one elite is much like any another...locumranch,<br /><br />...one elite is much like any another; <br /><br />I sincerely doubt he's missed this. He might rail at one more than another, but his neck vertebrae are not fused.<br /><br />...that the exceptional individual is 'deviant' (and therefore "bad") by definition; <br /><br />Hmm? What leads you to belief he considers this at all? When one believes they are exceptional, they are viewed as deviants by those whose views they oppose, right? For someone who can pivot and look all around them, though, they aren't 'bad'. They are just potentially deluded. We aren't all equal in the sense of natural talent and learned skill, so exceptional individuals are a fact of life. The danger occurs when we over-inflate our sense of difference, and I seriously doubt David is blind to this either.<br /><br />...and that exceptionalism is anathema to democratic principles.<br /><br />Heh. I think you are confused here. It is anathema to Liberty and only a danger to Democracy once someone decides not to respect the freedom of another.<br /><br />Democracy is a procedure for making decisions when large scale consensus is needed. Liberty is something very different.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36657135908899442232015-01-14T05:38:29.999-08:002015-01-14T05:38:29.999-08:00Portuguese, which can sound so beautiful sung!
I ...Portuguese, which can sound so beautiful sung!<br /><br />I blame much of the misunderstanding on the nature of the medium through which we are communicating. It's amazing that,by tapping out a sequence of keys on a humming, electronic box, we can have a conversation with people all over the world. But it is nothing like having a conversation over dinner and a bottle of wine. Geologists say that the rovers on Mars accomplished in five years what a field geologist could accomplish in two weeks if they could just get to Mars. Likewise facts like your time in the American South or my mistaken identifications of the national origins of actors would slip out in conversation quickly and easily. Blogs, like other social media, tend to encourage brief, imperative communication. Sometimes it is good to parse words, but in a forum like this the tendency is to encourage people to try to "win" rather than conversing for the sake of mutual understanding and sharing ideas. I imagine my posts here annoy some people because of their length, but, ironically, I have to get to work and don't have time to elaborate further.<br /><br />Since we have multiple Pauls here, but my name is kind of long to clack out, Paul SB or just PSB is fine. Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40369273038104090272015-01-14T02:33:56.122-08:002015-01-14T02:33:56.122-08:00Paul,
I was rushing a bit and I never answered th...Paul,<br /><br />I was rushing a bit and I never answered the last part of your question.<br /><br />There is a Hungarian and German minority in Transylvania. Heck, the current Romanian president is from the German minority. Although I've lived in the US since I was a child, so I know very little Romanian history.<br /><br />I am well aware about America's stereotypes about the South, having lived in Atlanta. <br /><br />Oh, to nit-pick. You forgot Portuguese when listing Romance languages. Ioannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-19536782002374605132015-01-14T02:13:41.330-08:002015-01-14T02:13:41.330-08:00David,
I agree. I mentioned that I was strawmanni...David,<br /><br />I agree. I mentioned that I was strawmanning your views, after all.<br /><br />The original point I was making was that the size of their plots, number of henchmenm, etc. would vary by region. Thus, attempts by people to argue how different scenarios would play out ignore the fact that there will probably be more than one solution, some of them probably horrible in terms of liberties.<br /><br />Hence, my use of spherical, frictionless cows. That's the only situation where such wide variations won't exist in my opinion.<br /><br />Perhaps I was unclear earlier?Ioannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-7920098387588262332015-01-13T22:45:16.405-08:002015-01-13T22:45:16.405-08:00Ioan I have never said the elites won't still ...Ioan I have never said the elites won't still have advantages, amidst transparency accountability.<br /><br />But transparency accountability will limit the SIZE of their plots and schemes. It will limit the number of henchmen they can employ, while worrying about generous whistle blower laws, plus the fact that their brightest children will often defect to enter the arts or sciences.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36194296660539240402015-01-13T22:20:00.849-08:002015-01-13T22:20:00.849-08:00I don't know enough about Dacians to comment f...I don't know enough about Dacians to comment further on them.<br /><br />As for spherical frictionless cows, whatever the merit of the rest of the views, I think you misunderstand the definition.<br /><br />I'll give an example (I'm strawmanning David's position here to make a point):<br /><br />Reciprocal accountability means that both the elites and the rest of the people can keep each other accountable, assuming all other things are equal (in other words, spherical frictionless cows). Even if the technology exists and can be used in most places, there will still be places where watching the elites would not be possible. Perhaps most people can't afford the technology? There could be threats of cultural ostracism (Romanian culture frowns on being anything less than VERY polite to priests, for instance. The thought that they could use the technology to check the priests wouldn't cross some people's minds, even if they could). Would these stop reciprocal accountability? No. But they introduce friction which could hurt a lot of people.<br /><br />Apologies if my point is less than clear, I'm rushed right now with work. I'll get back to this when I have more time.Ioannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26999770085779399162015-01-13T21:24:21.064-08:002015-01-13T21:24:21.064-08:00Ioan,
Since I am not a linguist, I can only be cu...Ioan,<br /><br />Since I am not a linguist, I can only be curious. I don't remember much about the Dacians except that they were an Indo-European offshoot, their language related to the Thracians, neighbors of the Greeks to the northeast. When I was in college my school hired a linguist and I took too classes before the she was driven away. The university paid her a higher starting salary than some old, tenured male professors, who tried to sue for reverse discrimination. The stereotype is that all professors are flaming liberals, but reality and stereotype are not as closely related as some people think. I would have taken more, but even though the old curmudgeons lost the suit, they made life pretty hostile - hostile enough to leave the country completely.<br /><br />I was told that Mira Furlan, the actress who played Delenn, was from Romania, but I never fact-checked it. Oh well!<br /><br />Spherical, frictionless cows? That sounds like the extremes in any debate. Look at locum's insistence on a cityslicker conspiracy theory. If you put things in vague enough terms and assume that you have all the pieces, you can justify any position you want. He assumes that whatever he has experienced is universal and should be obvious to everyone who isn't childishly naive. <br /><br />Both of my parents came from rural, small towns - one from Alabama the other the Netherlands. Their views were worlds apart, in spite of sharing their rural roots. The culture had more to do with their mentality than any rural/urban divide. Likewise the Red/Blue divide, which isn't really isometric with the rural/urban divide. the rural population just isn't big enough to account for all those Republican votes. I grew up in a city of just a quarter million, most of whom were extreme right-wingers (and my home town has always had an extremely high rate of both sex- and hate-crimes), but now live in an urban area of over 10 million. I have coworkers who regularly tell me that the president should be lynched. Most of the history teachers tell the students that climate change is a hoax every year. <br /><br />American culture has some ugly stereotypes, and their stereotypes of rural people are no less reprehensible than any other. Ditto the South. If an American wants to make the voice of a stupid person, they usually put on a Southern accent. An education professor I had once was from Tennessee, accent and all, and he was sharp as a whip. <br /><br />But a collection of small-minded people with vicious stereotypes do not a conspiracy make. Spherical frictionless cows, all around. Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56523081945780139102015-01-13T18:42:10.132-08:002015-01-13T18:42:10.132-08:00I don't think it's democracy that won'...I don't think it's democracy that won't tolerate exceptionalism; it's something in the times we live in. ("No child gets ahead.") My dad's generation revered the image of Thomas Edison, as one exceptional man, and while we learn he had feet of clay, (thus I say "image") that image at the time was not disparaged.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18226398285118154512015-01-13T18:36:15.938-08:002015-01-13T18:36:15.938-08:00Guessing this means even if the powerful are seen ...Guessing this means even if the powerful are seen to be doing wrong, they have the power and will just continue. True, the precedent for how this is overturned is in the history of unions or the French Revolution, or any revolution you might name, but that gets complicated fast. (Mao, Pol Pot?)<br /><br />Common law is a ballast; not to be sneezed at, but it can take forms which appall Westerners. Such as insistence by Saudis that decapitation for witchcraft simply must continue.<br /><br />Oh, well, no conclusions.<br /><br />Ioan, I'm no linguist but I do like to learn roots of language I use myself. And occasionally others. I was looking for the Arabic word for "crescent" just the other day. Interesting. I'll leave it as an exercise.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20735564756614846022015-01-13T17:59:36.794-08:002015-01-13T17:59:36.794-08:00This is what David forgets: That one elite is much...<br />This is what David forgets: That one elite is much like any another; that the exceptional individual is 'deviant' (and therefore "bad") by definition; and that exceptionalism is anathema to democratic principles.<br /><br />More on 'Unexceptionalism' later. Plus apologies to AF Rey as his/her words have been mistakenly attributed to lil' ol' me.<br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-48295542860652682682015-01-13T17:06:04.413-08:002015-01-13T17:06:04.413-08:00...(Our host) forgets that history tends to relega......(Our host) forgets that history tends to relegate elite exceptionalism to guillotines, gulags, box cars and killing fields, especially when those elites try to saddle and ride the reactionary populist tiger.<br /><br />Heh. I have to smile at that considering his past comments about tumbrels and how I had to go look up that word to add it to my vocabulary.<br /><br />David hasn't forgotten this. Quite the opposite.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78332167254005647902015-01-13T17:05:40.502-08:002015-01-13T17:05:40.502-08:00Dear Paul Shen-Brown,
Thank you. I know that the ...Dear Paul Shen-Brown,<br /><br />Thank you. I know that the region was inhabited by people called Dacians before the Romans came, but I don't know enough history to say what extent Dacian words survive in Romanian. That would be like asking how many Gallic words survive in French, or how many words from pre-Roman England survive?<br /><br />As for Babylon 5, who's exactly from Romania? I know that the actress who played Delenn was from Croatia and the actress who played Lyta was from (I think) Slovakia, but I'm not aware of Romanians on the show (yes, I am a fan of it).<br /><br />As for the debate on reciprocal accountability, to paraphrase Charles Stross, both sides of the debate are assuming perfectly spherical, frictionless cows. <br /><br />I think that the effectiveness of reciprocal accountability would vary too much based on local conditions (not just Red vs. Blue states) to describe in anything other than VERY generalized terms.Ioannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-50621505804857858202015-01-13T16:59:52.222-08:002015-01-13T16:59:52.222-08:00Even when he calms down and doesn't strawman.....Even when he calms down and doesn't strawman... as in the very latest posting, locum is utterly illogical.<br /><br />"The "cruel, harsh, unreasonable and oppressive application of power" is inescapable in human society, much like surveillance."<br /><br />if transparency leads to sousveilance => reciprocal accountability and enforced limitations on the oppressive power of elites... then locum's only complaint is that those limitations have to be "cruel, harsh, unreasonable"<br /><br />Um... if society DEEMS actions to be "cruel, harsh, unreasonable" and always CATCHES such actions... and deters them, then where are the "cruel, harsh, unreasonable" actions going to happen?<br /><br />Is all deterrence "cruel, harsh, unreasonable"? Huh. Seems to me that most scandinavian countries have been striving hard to treat even murderers far more gently than before. <br /><br />Illogical, always and forever.<br /><br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21350293735655408882015-01-13T15:12:47.272-08:002015-01-13T15:12:47.272-08:00Yep, and Marco Rubio is now the chairman of the Oc...Yep, and Marco Rubio is now the chairman of the Oceans, Atmosphere, Fisheries, and Coast Guard subcommittee and James Inhofe is chairman of Environment and Public Works committee.<br /><br />The foxes have taken over the henhouse.A.F. Reynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64711603902558898892015-01-13T13:19:32.007-08:002015-01-13T13:19:32.007-08:00Oh look, Ted Cruz is now in charge of Nasa.Oh look, Ted Cruz is now in charge of Nasa.sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-63394298329500959832015-01-13T12:20:31.690-08:002015-01-13T12:20:31.690-08:00The "cruel, harsh, unreasonable and oppressiv...The "cruel, harsh, unreasonable and oppressive application of power" is inescapable in human society, much like surveillance.<br /><br />Each human has the capacity to inflict power on nature or other humans. Nothing can stop it. Likewise, humans can group together and inflict their power on smaller or less-well-armed groups. It's a fact of nature.<br /><br />So the only question is who do we authorize to use this power, either to enforce rules (which would otherwise be useless without the threat of punishment) or to oppose the power of others.<br /><br />But you can't escape the "cruel, harsh, unreasonable and oppressive application of power," even if you decry its use. Because then the other guy will simply use such power on you, to which you cannot morally respond to. It's a win-win--for him. :)A.F. Reynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43334227856661899292015-01-13T11:31:43.665-08:002015-01-13T11:31:43.665-08:00Matthew asks some rather excellent questions and, ...<br />Matthew asks some rather excellent questions and, in response, I would say that some ideas compound well but others do not. <br /><br />Being a prerequisite for democracy, I am a big fan of informational transparency because the polity would not, could not and cannot make informed decisions without accurate information and, most certainly, I'm also a big fan of reciprocity for the same reason because (as David says) it's presence is absolutely necessary for any type of fair & balanced competition.<br /><br />That said, no amount of reciprocity and/or transparency (even to an infinite degree) is any guarentee of accountability because accountability, defined as a state of being 'held responsible' and/or liable, implies inescapable consequence which (as defined) implies the cruel, harsh, unreasonable and oppressive application of power.<br /><br />For without this tyrannical possibility -- the oppressive, cruel, harsh and unreasonable application of holding someone or something 'to account' -- the term 'reciprocal accountability' is (in essence) a nonsensically meaningless statement that signifies nothing.<br /><br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83483984072289819802015-01-13T09:45:15.984-08:002015-01-13T09:45:15.984-08:00Locumranch, if "reciprocal transparency is a ...Locumranch, if "reciprocal transparency is a function of tyranny by mass unexceptionalism" then what is the mechanism of that tyranny? Is knowing what your local city council is planning to do with property taxes in five years tyranny? Is knowing who was the winning bidder in a government contract tyranny? Is democracy tyranny to you? <br /><br />I know that you like to make etymological arguments to the point of absurdity, so here is an etymological question to you. How do you define "tyranny?" Also, how do you define "reciprocal transparency?" Because I do not think that these words mean what you think they mean.matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17757867868731829206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-89810861981063812552015-01-12T23:44:38.101-08:002015-01-12T23:44:38.101-08:00Did everyone notice that small exchange between Da...<br />Did everyone notice that small exchange between David & Paul? <br /><br />By admitting that reciprocal accountability "can happen but only when the elite in question is thoroughly tamed and held accountable", David experiences a brief moment of lucidity, admits that reciprocal transparency is a function of tyranny by mass unexceptionalism, (then) relapses to his elite technocratic stance and forgets that history tends to relegate elite exceptionalism to guillotines, gulags, box cars and killing fields, especially when those elites try to saddle and ride the reactionary populist tiger.<br /><br />Remember Danton!! And, never forget that those despicable Luddites were elite guildsmen, artisans and unionists. <br /><br /><br />Bestlocumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24645470509557993302015-01-12T19:16:48.072-08:002015-01-12T19:16:48.072-08:00Ioan, your comments are insightful, and even if th...Ioan, your comments are insightful, and even if they seem off-topic, you never know when something you say might strike a chord with somebody else. Feel free to communicate. A blog is just a conversation, and conversations tend to meander. I know I have gone off topic, as have others. If no one is interested, they just won't comment on your posts. Also, I would bet that a lot of people here are fans of Babylon 5 and are aware that some of the actors on that show were from Romania, so perhaps that might garner some interest.<br /><br />On Romance languages, people usually think of Italian, Spanish & French, but many don't know about Romanian and also Romansch, which is spoken in some parts of Switzerland. But no language is ever pure. What of the people who lived there before the Romans? Surely some of their language must have survived. I had a history professor who explained that almost 1/3rd of English words come from French by way of William the Conqueror, not enough to qualify it as a Romance language,but English still contains vocabulary from before the Romans. I have always wondered how the language of the Celt Iberians might have influenced modern Spanish, for instance, or what remnants of Etruscan linger in modern Italian. Is there any element of Magyar in Romanian? Magyar is part of that odd Uralic language group that is dispersed in isolated regions of Europe, making it a bit of a puzzle. I'll confess, though, that some of my interest grows out of a childhood love of Franz Liszt, a famous musical neighbor. He was actually from a German family, though, so not so close to Romania.Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23766553306898768472015-01-12T17:09:24.819-08:002015-01-12T17:09:24.819-08:00Paul451:
In the case of Stephen Byerley, the orde...Paul451:<br /><i><br />In the case of Stephen Byerley, the order was quite literally "Prove you're not a robot". And his proof was also unambiguous... (except for the loophole Susan Calvin found.)<br /></i><br /><br />Hmmmm, I can't recall now whether a robot is constrained to take orders <b>from</b> another robot. If not, then "Please prove you are not a robot" wouldn't have any force of "law" at all, as long as it's just printing on a website.<br /><br />So let's focus on the other half of my speculation.<br /><br />Forget Asimov for the moment. Just imagine a sentient robot of the type depicted in "Existence", for example. What would he <b>think</b> when presented with an admonition to "Prove you are not a robot"? <br /><br />Would it bother him that "not being a robot" is apparently a precondition to posting a response? <br /><br />And would he shed a tear or give a mirthful smirk at the thought that "getting the answer correct" is supposed to constitute such a proof?LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83868367988203913972015-01-12T16:54:05.952-08:002015-01-12T16:54:05.952-08:00I get that there are times - Paul - when I moderat...I get that there are times - Paul - when I moderate my general line with a softer one.<br /><br />Defying folks to name one time when elites ever allowed themselves to be blinded, I only rarely get the right response, which is "Us!" Right now, occasionally, we can force some elites not to look. But hardly anyone ever says that! Because the reflex is to assume we are in a dark age.<br /><br />When someone DOES point that out, I show that yes, it can happen, but only when the elite in question is thoroughly tamed and held accountable.<br /><br />But it boils down to the same thing. Reciprocal accountability is the only thing that possibly CAN work. I never offered guarantees that it WILL.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11686329075680700022015-01-12T16:43:53.668-08:002015-01-12T16:43:53.668-08:00You quite literally wrote the book. I'm saying...You quite literally wrote the book. I'm saying that your blog posts often emphasise the inevitability of the failure of controlling surveillance, in a way that seems fatalistic.<br /><br />"This won't work" rather than "this would only work if..."<br /><br />Just a perception thing. Not a claim about what you believe.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.com