tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post4655232926734408941..comments2024-03-19T05:35:07.296-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Robert Heinlein and looking Beyond This HorizonDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger89125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22404902470389662322018-12-14T23:20:48.062-08:002018-12-14T23:20:48.062-08:00Could you explain why you say libertarianism is &q...Could you explain why you say libertarianism is "selfish solipsism?" <br /><br />And I have been in "armed societies." Large gatherings, way off in the boonies, where the police are nowhere nearby and would be heavily outnumbered, and nearly everybody is armed to the teeth. Yet, despite heavy drinking and partying, I have never heard of so much as an assault at these events. Could it be because most, if not all, participants are carrying enough sharp steel on them to start a cutlery store, and many of them know just how to use it?Technomadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10438978139389104455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53132172507833982472016-05-20T20:43:44.465-07:002016-05-20T20:43:44.465-07:00As a final comment, to thoroughly demolish your cl...As a final comment, to thoroughly demolish your claims that Heinlein was some sort of closet liberal, I give you this, from his later years:<br /><br />"At the time I wrote Methuselah's Children<br />I was still politically quite naive and still had hopes <br />that various libertarian notions could be put over <br />by political processes..<br /><br />It now seems to me that every time we manage to <br />establish one freedom, they take another away.<br /><br />Maybe two.<br /><br />And that seems to me<br />characteristic of a society as it gets older,<br />more crowded,<br />higher taxed,<br />and more laws...<br /><br />I would say that my position<br />is not too far from that of Ayn Rand's:<br />That I would like to see government reduced<br />to no more than internal police and courts,<br />external armed forces-<br />with the other matters handeld otherwise.<br />I'm sick of the way the government sticks its nose<br />into everythint, now."<br /><br />-Robert A Heinlein, The Dean of Science Fictionmlorreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409082009155277114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60241265508782075322016-05-15T14:19:08.141-07:002016-05-15T14:19:08.141-07:00Cont'd...
But it also applies to criminal beha...Cont'd...<br />But it also applies to criminal behavior. Given that cherry picking is perfectly acceptable practice done by gun grabbers, I shall do likewise and compare the city of Lowell, MA with Nashua, NH. They are separated by only a few miles, but vastly by a state boundary between New Hampshire and Massachusetts. NH, with unlicensed open carry, shall-issue concealed carry, castle doctrine, stand your ground, legalized machine guns and silencers, and a high percentage of its populace licensed to carry concealed, has vastly lower crime rates than MA, which has no stand your ground or castle doctrine, no open carry, and a strict may-issue CCW process with high fees and extensive training requirements, as well as a legal duty to retreat. Nashua, with strongly similar demographics to Lowell, both being old New England mill towns with significant immigrant populations, has crime rates one third to one half lower, depending on category, than Lowell.<br />I hope I have sufficiently proven my case, but I sorta doubt you will accept the facts.<br />As for the rest of the book: I am at a loss to understand how there is ANY competitive drive to do ANYTHING in the culture of Beyond This Horizon if there isn't any danger of significant financial loss with failure, and possibility of reward with success.<br />Now, trying to fix Heinlein on a single ideology based on a single book written at one point in his life is simply dishonest. Published in 1942, this was the youthful Heinlein, barely 32 years old, only a few years out of his political interest in Upton Sinclair's socialist campaign, and just after his failed attempt at a novel in For Us, The Living, which portrayed a similarly naive socialist utopia. The Heinlein of 1942 was a naive veteran who was wholly bought into the New Deal big government petty fasco-socialism of Roosevelt and how militarization of anything seemed to be most efficient and productive. This is a far far different person from the wise curmudgeonly old man who wrote The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers, Revolt in 2100, Stranger in a Strange Land, The Number of the Beast, Friday, and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls. The elder Heinlein knew from experience how corrupt and corrupting government is, how counterproductive and liberty-castrating regulation of any kind is, how abusive bureaucrats and enforcement thugs can be. The young Heinlein of 1942 knew none of these things, he didn't even have any clue about the depths to which militarized governments could go in the Hitler's Holocaust, Stalins' purges and gulags, and Mao's cultural revolution. Those revelations were to come later in his life, and helped shape the old man of wisdom he became. Your attempt to fix his ideology to that of his naive youth is therefore factually unsupportable.mlorreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409082009155277114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34263308559870911422016-05-15T14:18:39.739-07:002016-05-15T14:18:39.739-07:00David,
Firstly, your claim in your later comments ...David,<br />Firstly, your claim in your later comments that the gun homicide rate in the "wild west" was prodigious is simply false. It was actually far lower than most of the US today, and most that did occur had far more to do with the border skirmishes of the low intensity warfare with native americans than with actual interactions between American citizens. While Roth's paper shows that the big cattle towns had very high homicide rates within city limits, he ignores the fact that those very same cattle towns had extremely strict gun control ordinances in place, contrary to the rest of the western territories, much like modern Chicago, which has the strictest gun control laws in the country, has the highest murder rate in the country. Roth cherry picks these few cattle towns (cherry picking seems common among gun controllers) which serve his selection bias, and then uses the fraudulent statistical practice of homogenization to extrapolate those same rates across the entire west.<br />Secondly, Campbell's belief that an armed society makes for a polite society is etymologically provable in the evolution of language. In the eras when there was no legal public dueling, cultures exhibited far more polite forms of speech, with thee's and thou's, mayhap, therefores, might you, please, thank you, etc. because giving offense was likely to get you into a duel. Rudeness, therefore, gets you a Darwin Award.mlorreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01409082009155277114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43909482170207204052015-05-31T09:54:51.700-07:002015-05-31T09:54:51.700-07:00Thanks for explaining to the simplistic that Heinl...Thanks for explaining to the simplistic that Heinlein wasn't simplistic.<br /><br />I started reading SF at age 9. My first book was not by Heinlein and I am not sure what my first Heinlein story was, it may have been Door into Summer. But SF introduced me to ideas that I was not getting from any of my teachers or other adults. Good SF is not shallow and that is what so much SF has become these days, shallow entertainment.<br /><br />Almost no discussion of <b>The Moon is a Harsh Mistress</b> mentions LogLan. It is an artificial language designed to be more logical. This leads to Heinlein's interest in the works of Alfred Korzybski. <b>The Tyranny of Words</b> by Stuart Chase presents the ideas in a more comprehensible manner but this relates to Artificial Intelligence in connecting symbols with reality. How much SF today does anything like that?<br /><br />http://www.isegoria.net/2009/06/the-language-of-clear-thinking/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56179434850806973082015-04-27T23:53:58.501-07:002015-04-27T23:53:58.501-07:00In the "Wild West", towns had gun contro...In the "Wild West", towns had gun control.<br /><br />http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/23/1112703/-De-mythologizing-the-Wild-West-gun-laws-were-actually-stricter-then-than-now?detail=emailclassicRichard Stallmanhttp://www.gnu.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-7404804569313805812015-02-19T07:39:01.494-08:002015-02-19T07:39:01.494-08:00In the medieval period few but some of the nobilit...In the medieval period few but some of the nobility, monks in monasteries, and wealthy could read. Producing a book was an enormous, expensive undertaking costing in the range of 3-10 times the median bourgeoisie income- $150,000-500,000. So, yes, the few people who understood what you might be talking about when you mentioned something from Plato had read the same thing, probably from the same book, and believe it. A serf would touch it in awe, much as we watch amazed looking at a vista from the Hubble space telescope. It's mysterious, awesome, and beyond our understanding.<br /><br />As far as Robert Heinlein, I believe him when he said he wrote what would sell. He also said "I am proud to be a human being.....(mankind) will spread out to the other planets, to the stars, and beyond, carrying with him his honesty, his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage — and his noble essential decency.". He was a philosopher in the sense that his books explored where honesty, insatiable curiosity, courage, and essential decency could go.<br /><br />Our host is right, many of his books, and often the characters, drifted from a finely told story into long dialogs or internal meanderings about those human essentials.<br /><br />I haven't encountered any other author who did a better job producing a riveting story that based on a premise that had half the readers gritting their teeth and thinking "that just ain't right". If he were writing today I'd expect a book with a radical islamist as the heroic character, with all the ridiculous beheadings, 72 virgins waiting with Allah, and the Caliph ruling in Tehran. And the story would be riveting and make sense(in a way) until is drifted off into rambling philosophizing. <br /><br />Phil Cartier Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-22377221948906627062015-02-07T19:13:35.579-08:002015-02-07T19:13:35.579-08:00I've only just begun reading this article, so ...I've only just begun reading this article, so forgive me if this question is answered further in.<br /><br />The question I have is: what is the correct pronunciation of 'Heinlein'?<br /><br />And now back to reading...John's Secret Identity™https://www.blogger.com/profile/03415668996117415753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83763170250742948712015-01-23T18:00:03.511-08:002015-01-23T18:00:03.511-08:00Your comment "A libertarianism of the compass...Your comment "A libertarianism of the compassionately practical variety preached by Adam Smith and the American Founders, not by psychopathic lunatics like Murray Rothbard or Ayn Rand." really hits the head of the nail. RAH sought a dialog with the readers, not lecture them. His work is often as much about what is wrong with a given social organization as what is right. And, perhaps, the realization that, though none of us has a perfect answer, there is the faith they can make progress on the problem.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07436621088558859243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-10597765760237074232015-01-22T12:40:18.687-08:002015-01-22T12:40:18.687-08:00Only locumranch could percieve the TNG Universe as...Only locumranch could percieve the TNG Universe as "genderless", the first couple of seasons everyone was screwing all the time.Suetoniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17476512295444262213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39292460065492011442015-01-21T10:18:08.729-08:002015-01-21T10:18:08.729-08:00Something Else Like... Heinlein
Nobody’s writing ...<a href="http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/10/something-else-like-heinlein" rel="nofollow">Something Else Like... Heinlein</a><br /><br /><i>Nobody’s writing official Heinlein sequels, but there are a pile of people who are self-identified as Heinlein influenced. There’s Spider Robinson, who was fortunate enough to write a book to Heinlein’s postumous outline, Variable Star. (I think they should have taken the outline and given it to a whole pile of people and let them all write different books based on it. I think that would have been fascinating.) There’s John Varley, who has a Heinlein sect building a starship on the moon in Steel Beach. Gregory Benford calls his novel Jupiter Project a Heinlein tribute. Charles Stross’s Saturn’s Children is directly influenced by Heinlein’s Friday.</i>Naumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06741963276339044331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84088653678895142802015-01-20T05:37:04.626-08:002015-01-20T05:37:04.626-08:00Jumper: I carry a walking stick (brass top) becau...Jumper: I carry a walking stick (brass top) because I sometimes need it for balance; however, I had the option of having it customized to the proper length and chose to leave it the full 36" - for exactly the reason you've stated.steve davidsonhttp://www.amazingstoriesmag.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75389430760922615942015-01-19T18:32:50.726-08:002015-01-19T18:32:50.726-08:00onwardonwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75870506638851979322015-01-19T16:52:43.524-08:002015-01-19T16:52:43.524-08:00Gentlemen used to carry walking sticks; canes; and...Gentlemen used to carry walking sticks; canes; and not just for lameness. They were good for dealing with ruffians, dogs, and gangs of street urchins.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-38347890107698426382015-01-19T15:38:38.860-08:002015-01-19T15:38:38.860-08:00Perhaps the solution is to give the guys who want ...Perhaps the solution is to give the guys who want them epees, and leave the guns to the police and the women. ;)A.F. Reynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55500280555574890042015-01-19T14:43:09.756-08:002015-01-19T14:43:09.756-08:00The Pilot episode for The Man in the High Castle i...The Pilot episode for The Man in the High Castle is available on Amazon....<br /><br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RSI5EHQ/ref=dv_dp_ep1Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-71070096834022225972015-01-19T14:00:53.588-08:002015-01-19T14:00:53.588-08:00"An armed society is a polite society" -..."An armed society is a polite society" -- so what? Who believes a polite society should be our goal? I'd rather have a free society, an open society, a fair society, a compassionate society. Polite is nice, but rather down the list. <br /><br />It is also quite possible to have a polite society without every citizen being armed. I've lived in Switzerland, where no one walks around armed, but everyone says "bon jour!" as you pass.<br /><br />I personally enjoy both guns and swords, but I do not think carrying either every day will make me a better person.Gatornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34997706717222555972015-01-19T13:36:20.074-08:002015-01-19T13:36:20.074-08:00Thanks Steve... but swords have disadvantages: 1- ...Thanks Steve... but swords have disadvantages: 1- they are inherently sexist, notwhithstanding cos-play and vid-game heroines. 2- They are linked directly with 6000 years of feudalism. Look at OUTCOMES! Guys with swords banded together and ALWAYS used them to crush competition, to gang up and take away other men's women and wheat and swords.<br /><br />I say this as a lifelong fencer!David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-70499607813891750472015-01-19T13:15:24.687-08:002015-01-19T13:15:24.687-08:00Thanks for this David. I've been beating the ...Thanks for this David. I've been beating the same drum for a while now (don't pin labels on someone who was dabbling in thought experiments) though far less eloquently than you just have.<br /><br />Heinlein's fiction was an expression of the so-called Campbellian ideal SF (Heinlein's early work helped Campbell develop his theories of "what SF is".) <br /><br />To put it in somewhat more modern parlance, good science fiction that meets all three primary requirements for the genre takes the form of an experimental model. Initial conditions are set forth, a variable is introduced and the consequences of the variable interacting with the conditions are then followed to their logical conclusion. Different variables produce different outcomes.<br /><br />In regards to the armed society concept: I whole heartedly agree that the weapons we should be "armed" with are cameras. But I do still hold a fondness for substituting swords for guns. Swords are much more personal, much more intimate and they do not "go off" accidentally. Of course they take much more training to use effectively (which might actually be a virtue), and there are various other problems (like sitting in restaurants or crowded elevator cars), but they have the benefit of requiring thought prior to drawing and throughout the course of using them, as well as the benefit of being able to deliver less-than-lethal "instruction" in the hands of someone who is skilled in their use.steve davidsonhttp://www.amazingstoriesmag.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39621044751805608922015-01-19T12:46:49.714-08:002015-01-19T12:46:49.714-08:00AF Rey, it shows how fecund the post FDR era was, ...AF Rey, it shows how fecund the post FDR era was, and how little capitalists have had to complain about. Fortunately, a fair number of the self-made billionaires have signed the Buffett pledge.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53223110292257521312015-01-19T12:19:32.104-08:002015-01-19T12:19:32.104-08:00Things may not be as bad as they seem.
Of the 80 ...Things may not be as bad as they seem.<br /><br />Of the 80 richest people in the world, 11 inherented their wealth, while another 19 inherented their wealth but made it grow into a tremedous fortune. "The remaining 50 names on the list, according to Forbes, are self-made billionaires."<br /><br />http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/meet-the-80-people-who-are-as-rich-as-half-the-world/<br /><br />A nice percentage of entreprenuers.<br /><br />Unfortunately, these 80 do control as much wealth as the bottom 3.6 billion people of the world, which makes them an extremely spikey top of the pyramid.<br /><br />But at least they didn't inherit it all from their progenitors!A.F. Reynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56313476478784587042015-01-19T09:22:44.836-08:002015-01-19T09:22:44.836-08:00I would add Ursula LeGuin to the list.I would add Ursula LeGuin to the list.Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85620238543494208332015-01-19T06:51:37.821-08:002015-01-19T06:51:37.821-08:00A thing I see in RAH's later books, the charac...A thing I see in RAH's later books, the characters mostly realize "Your mileage may vary", the bed-hoppers were picky about who they chose and Lazarus Long seemed to be in love with all of them, even devoting decades exclusively to one woman. "Protean" may be the best word for Heinlein, he could be nearly anyone you needed him to be.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-45557276364160947822015-01-19T03:14:16.947-08:002015-01-19T03:14:16.947-08:00Duncan, these things always tend to be a matter of...Duncan, these things always tend to be a matter of taste, but it's interesting that your list omits Clarke and Asimov. Both 'deep' thinkers, although with styles that are distinct from Heinlein.<br /><br />If you've got Varley, then why not Scalzi?Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26733747588759380142015-01-19T00:33:59.501-08:002015-01-19T00:33:59.501-08:00I was sitting here thinking
RAH was damn good but ...I was sitting here thinking<br />RAH was damn good but there were/are better writers<br />Then I tried to list them<br />It was difficult!<br />I decided to list those that were <br />"As good as" (IMHO)<br />Charles Sheffield<br />Donald Kingsbury<br />L M Bujold<br />L Niven<br />J Varley<br />V Vinge<br />Our Host<br /><br />There are others that write equally enjoyable books - but they are not as "deep"Duncan Cairncrossnoreply@blogger.com