tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post4572661460310415764..comments2024-03-29T05:59:55.834-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: The Ostrich Papers: "What if Clinton had..." (Part III)David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43016162077760467442007-10-18T00:27:00.000-07:002007-10-18T00:27:00.000-07:00Panzerjensen: I apologize for the way in which I i...Panzerjensen: I apologize for the way in which I insulted you.<BR/><BR/>I drew a conclusion from your behaviour that was far too strong to draw based on the extremely limited sample I had.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11507725932358099333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44214549620844529462007-10-17T19:24:00.000-07:002007-10-17T19:24:00.000-07:00I'm glad to see tempers have cooled down.If you ha...I'm glad to see tempers have cooled down.<BR/><BR/>If you haven't moved on, Panzer, as a polemicist disdainful of 'flower children', I hope you can find something to chuckle about in <A HREF="http://www.banksy.co.uk/indoors/index2.html" REL="nofollow">this image</A>Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-42297275395380158882007-10-17T18:52:00.000-07:002007-10-17T18:52:00.000-07:00>>Actually, this fellow is not a terribly bad guy....>>Actually, this fellow is not a terribly bad guy. In fact, he's been a friendly fan for years and I hope he does not vanish in anger<<<BR/><BR/>David, I feel the same way. I came across your books during a dark and lonely time in my life, many years ago. And I suspect, looking back on some of the things I've written, that time is still affecting me. None of us can escape our past. I also I need to thank you for something. Polemicist. You hit the nail <B>right</B> on the head. Dead on. From the Greek <I>polemikos</I>, and <I>polemos</I>, hostile and warlike. Just look at the handle I pick. (Yes, it does indeed mean Tanker Jensen.) Some changes are in order. And I regret some of my behavior here.<BR/><BR/>So, in a small way, I think you've made the world a better place today.panzerjensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112215407072209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36329967359941605192007-10-17T16:57:00.000-07:002007-10-17T16:57:00.000-07:00Actually, this fellow is not a terribly bad guy. ...Actually, this fellow is not a terribly bad guy. In fact, he's been a friendly fan for years and I hope he does not vanish in anger, just because of some harsh flames, buried in the comments section of a political blog-posting.<BR/><BR/>Indeed, on the face of it, you would have thought him a good candidate for "ostrich-hood"... for being smart and honest enough to gaze upon a long list of wretched crimes and treasons and have the balls to admit that his movement has been hijacked. By monsters.<BR/><BR/>Alas. What he illustrates, in fact, is the hysterical frenzy that many will enter, as they defend their state of denial. Some may find the inner courage to make the state change. From ostrich to fierce palladin in the restoration of a decent conservatism.<BR/><BR/>Other will simply get more shrill. Then rushing off to screech among others of the same kind, reinforcing Fox memes.<BR/><BR/>What might be nice is if some of YOU would go slumming in such sites. e.g. Pournelles Denial Manor? I can't help but wonder what's being said about me. What warped versions of my position are being repeated in such places.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15902837926260989332007-10-17T16:01:00.000-07:002007-10-17T16:01:00.000-07:00I would assume that Mr. Jensen is using the German...I would assume that Mr. Jensen is using the German word "Panzer" in reference to armor or tanks (Panzer means "armor", the German word for tank is Panzerkampfwagen, "Armored Fighting Vehicle", and shortened to just Panzer)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66065645437136288692007-10-17T11:36:00.000-07:002007-10-17T11:36:00.000-07:00Wait a minute! Panzer IS a flower...Wait a minute! Panzer IS a flower...Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27364876606443964322007-10-17T11:32:00.000-07:002007-10-17T11:32:00.000-07:00Gettin' warm in here. Yeehah!As an independent, an...Gettin' warm in here. Yeehah!<BR/><BR/>As an independent, and proud of it, I must gag a little bit about Clinton's "honesty" although I agree with Brin about the absolute waste and meaninglessness of the partisan furor regarding the stalker/agent Lewinski. Ptah, what nonsense it all was.<BR/><BR/>I have no love for Clintons.<BR/><BR/>But indeed the Clintons' failures are molehills comparatively.<BR/><BR/>I am curious what the exit strategy is from the world's opium production center. That one's a toughy.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-37498848166323605072007-10-17T10:49:00.000-07:002007-10-17T10:49:00.000-07:00Hypocrisy is the name of the game, folks. Especia...Hypocrisy is the name of the game, folks. Especially when one is in denial. <BR/><BR/>Panzer came on hurling ad hominem slurs... including "flower child" being among the sweetest. He staked a claim on superior manhood and guts... ...<BR/><BR/>...and then shrank away when I demanded an actual comparison of Clinton and Bush AS Commanders in Chief,<BR/><BR/>His recent rant was devoid of any answers.<BR/><BR/>Okay, Panzer I RETRACT the "SOB" part and repeat the same exact challenge:<BR/><BR/><B>Why did you fellows put us through 12 years of culture war and $2 Billion of Clinton chasing, while (treasonously) taking FBI men off anti-terror duty before 9/11, in search of a smoking gun... only to find ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you could pin on a single Clinton Administration official, of any kind, at any level, no matter how small? <BR/><BR/>Never before in all of history did an administration depart without a single stain of any official kind... only on one blue dress.</B><BR/><BR/>Explain that fact. Explain it. There is no other topic. That fact. Explain it. <BR/><BR/>And since youse guys wave the flag so much, explain how we dropped from 30 ready brigades to two.<BR/><BR/>Explain how it benefits us to be hated and have no allies.<BR/><BR/>Explain why the professionals of the military hate your man, worse than they have hated any president in living memory.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-67761086692308776212007-10-17T08:34:00.000-07:002007-10-17T08:34:00.000-07:00"Notice people, how the Neodemocraps feel the need..."Notice people, how the Neodemocraps feel the need to resort to name calling in the absence of any real arguments."<BR/><BR/>You can cut the irony with a knife.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11507725932358099333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75133740754766782592007-10-17T07:58:00.000-07:002007-10-17T07:58:00.000-07:00Speaking of people with their head in the sand, ho...Speaking of people with their head in the sand, how about some sort of <B>cite</B> for: <BR/><BR/>"We just can't trust the American people to make these types of decisions …Government has to make these choices for people…"<BR/><BR/>Beyond 'Hillary Clinton, 1993'<BR/><BR/>And how about the <B>entire</B> quote, and a little bit more context. (You realize she doesn't actually say 'health care' in the quote, right? For all we know from your quote, she's talking about which side of the road to drive on.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85933934656285748472007-10-17T04:34:00.000-07:002007-10-17T04:34:00.000-07:00David...Looks like a NeoCon supporter has found yo...David...<BR/><BR/>Looks like a NeoCon supporter has found your blog. As you can see, this is NOT an ostrich, a good conservative who might listen to reason. THIS is the NeoCon base; the deadend 25% who will never, ever, admit that the man they hate did it better than the man they admire.<BR/><BR/>HH<BR/>SM1(SW) USN (ret)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72246225296880684402007-10-17T02:57:00.000-07:002007-10-17T02:57:00.000-07:00>>Why did you SOBs put us through 12 years of cult...>>Why did you SOBs put us through 12 years of culture war … the only supporters of him left are the terminally ignorant and the willfully so. … But we're not going to stop the people who categorically refuse to listen from being as delusionally crazy as they …<<<BR/><BR/>Notice people, how the Neodemocraps feel the need to resort to name calling in the absence of any real arguments. A perfect example of the specimen. Study them carefully. Five paragraphs of self-indulgent pontificating, devoid of any intellectual content, backed up by the previous mentioned carnival barkings about rogue G-Men, our once wild popularity in the Muslim world (!?! sounds like a twisted episode of X-Files so far David…), shrill rants of geopolitical electoral rape (partially true, just wait for the next election), and shameless bellyaching and moaning about money being spent for special prosecutors for someone <B>they themselves admit lied under oath to Congress.</B> Right after complaining about presidents refusing to answer to the accountability of Congress.<BR/><BR/>Oh the glaring hypocrisy of the Neodem. Glaring.<BR/><BR/>Study them carefully kids, but don't get too close. Neodems don't have the teeth to bite you, but much like a fireless, deflated Smog, they emit lots of noise. The empty can rattles the most.panzerjensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112215407072209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-146110050860498592007-10-17T00:03:00.000-07:002007-10-17T00:03:00.000-07:00People like panzerjensen here are completely immun...People like panzerjensen here are completely immune to facts, reason, or in fact anything whatsoever that might result in changing their minds.<BR/><BR/>We all know how unpopular Bush is at this point - the only supporters of him left are the terminally ignorant and the willfully so.<BR/><BR/>We need to stick the whole neocon movement to Bush so that they can't wiggle away, and we need to stick the Republican party to him so that they have to change.<BR/><BR/>But we're not going to stop the people who categorically refuse to listen from being as delusionally crazy as they want to be; we can point it out, and we can force the sane people who are allied with them to recognize that this alliance hurts everyone and helps nobody.<BR/><BR/>Those are the reasons to produce the "Ostrich papers" and the like - but arguing with those who are unconvincable is only worth doing if people watching might think they're right; but at this point the only way that is at all a credible threat is if you let them drag you down away from reason and facts.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11507725932358099333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18878397624768782362007-10-16T23:52:00.000-07:002007-10-16T23:52:00.000-07:00What crap. After the Balkans campaign, Europe had...What crap. After the Balkans campaign, Europe had peace and law for the 1st time in 4,000 years. A goal worth more than this Iraq mess.<BR/><BR/> It wasn’t flower children who railed against an intervention that ended genocide, united a continent, raised our status in the Muslim world and made us wildly popular everywhere, at low cost and zero US lives lost. It was George W Bush, who demanded “a clear goal, exit strategy and no effects upon our readiness.”<BR/><BR/>Sure you opposed it. Because of who led it. There was not a single other reason to do so. Otherwise, everybody, even half the SERBS are glad we came. Now poll the people of the Middle East about us. <BR/><BR/> As for Afghanistan, have you been paying attention at all? That was a powell doctrine war for one reason only, because Clinton and Clarke planned it, Bush didn’t have TIME to meddle! That’s why it worked!<BR/><BR/>“Is that a mote I see in your eyes?”<BR/><BR/>WTF? The only reason I am talking to you is because we all need to see the maniacal self delusions that can make a man pick and choose teeny polemical points in glee, like you just expressed, while frantically ignoring the much bigger facts, all saying that our country has been raped. <BR/><BR/>A quarter of a trillion dollars in contracts, given on a no-bid, no competition basis to Bush and Cheney family friends, and you call yourself a friend of capitalism? Hurling “flower child” doesn’t save you from the simple fact that you are part of the rape.<BR/><BR/>Your long list is simply loony. ALL of those words are the same lie. Just one. What? You get a biased special prosecutor to ask the same thing a zillion times, and you count a zillion prevaricating answers as.... a zillion?<BR/><BR/>Dig this. AND DO NOT COME BACK TO THIS DISCUSSION WITHOUT ANSWERING THIS. <BR/><BR/>Why did you SOBs put us through 12 years of culture war and $2 Billion of Clinton chasing, while (treasonously) taking FBI men off anti-terror duty before 9/11, in search of a smoking gun... only to find ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you could pin on a single Clinton Administration official, of any kind, at any level, no matter how small? Never before in all of history did an administration depart without a single stain of any official kind... only on one blue dress.<BR/><BR/>Does evidence of reality mean nothing to you? Nothing at all? Is it even remotely possible for facts as bald as that to make you stand up, like a man, and admit that maybe you were wrong? You guys control all branches of government, and spend our money like water in a witch hunt that tears the nation apart... <BR/><BR/>...and meanwhile your own guys are exposed as perverts and thieves at every turn. The generals and admirals all hate your guts...<BR/><BR/>But you will stick to your story, zeroing in on all the ways Bill Cinton told the SAME lie, in response to an illegal question you had no right at all to ask. What’s next? Count the number of pixels! in “I had no sex with that woman?”<BR/><BR/>Well, you’ve succeded at one thing. US officers are turning Democratic in droves. And the FBI and CIA will wake up, too. They will shrug off the bullies from Bob Jones U that you guys have set upon their throats. They’ll get the goods.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23135716069683695332007-10-16T22:25:00.000-07:002007-10-16T22:25:00.000-07:00Panzer, the actual challenge was not to compare th...Panzer, the actual challenge was not to compare the Balkans and Afghanistan, but:<BR/><BR/><I>... to compare the Balkans and Afghanistan campaign ... to this quagmire (ie Iraq)</I>Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26694466552427248172007-10-16T21:21:00.000-07:002007-10-16T21:21:00.000-07:00>>And YOUR response is to heckle me over the words...>>And YOUR response is to heckle me over the words "little fuckup"?<BR/><<<BR/><BR/>Almost as lame as heckling someone over the expression flower child, isn't it? My goal is to point out those spots my not be faded images of Hendrix burning guitars, but quartz grains as well. (Dammit David, you made me look up the word "polemicist.") Of which, tally ho…<BR/><BR/>>>I have challenged you directly. In your face, to compare the Balkans and Afghanistan campaign.<<<BR/><BR/>Ok, the 1999 Balkan campaign, let's see, that was a little known <B>NATO</B> campaign that didn't effect the average Amercian at all, stuck its unwanted nose into another country's civil war, didn't end up altering the borders of the region being waged on(like hoped), and cost the US millions of dollars while in hindsight offering dubious or no returns. In effect, the very kind of conflict that a flower-child type from the 1960s should be railing against that we <I>never, ever, should have gotten involved in.</I><BR/><BR/>Ok, Afghanistan. The US military entered to eliminate the staging and training grounds for the Taliban and fanatic Islamic terrorists, who are a threat to <B>all of us.</B><BR/><BR/>There, better? I opposed the former, and support the later.<BR/><BR/>Is that a mote I see in your eyes?<BR/><BR/>>>He won't answer about the $2 billion dollar attack on an administration that later proved to be the most honest and open in US history.<<<BR/><BR/>Ok, I'll answer that:<BR/><BR/>I don't remember – 71<BR/>I don't know – 62<BR/>I'm not sure – 17<BR/>I have no idea – 10<BR/>I don't believe so – 9<BR/>I don't recall – 8<BR/>I don't think so – 8<BR/>I don't have any specific recollection – 6<BR/>I have no recollection – 4<BR/>Not to my knowledge – 4<BR/>I just don't remember – 4<BR/>I don't believe – 4<BR/>I have no specific recollection – 3<BR/>I might have – 3<BR/>I don't have any recollection of that - 2 I don't have a specific memory – 2<BR/>I don't have any memory of that – 2<BR/>I just can't say – 2<BR/>I have no direct knowledge of that – 2<BR/>I don't have any idea – 2<BR/>Not that I recall – 2<BR/>I don't believe I did – 2<BR/>I can't remember – 2<BR/>I can't say – 2<BR/>I do not remember doing so – 2<BR/>Not that I remember – 2<BR/>I'm not aware – 1<BR/>I honestly don't know – 1<BR/>I don't believe that I did – 1<BR/>I'm fairly sure – 1<BR/>I have no other recollection – 1<BR/>I'm not positive – 1<BR/>I certainly don't think so – 1<BR/>I don't really remember – 1<BR/>I would have no way of remembering that – 1<BR/>That's what I believe happened – 1<BR/>To my knowledge, no – 1<BR/>To the best of my knowledge – 1<BR/>To the best of my memory – 1<BR/>I honestly don't recall – 1<BR/>I honestly don't remember – 1<BR/>That's all I know – 1<BR/>I don't have an independent recollection of that – 1<BR/>I don't actually have an independent memory of that – 1<BR/>As far as I know – 1<BR/>I don't believe I ever did that – 1<BR/>That's all I know about that – 1<BR/>I'm just not sure – 1<BR/>Nothing that I remember – 1<BR/>I simply don't know – 1<BR/>I would have no idea – 1<BR/>I don't know anything about that – 1<BR/>I don't have any direct knowledge of that – 1<BR/>I just don't know – 1<BR/>I really don't know – 1<BR/>I can't deny that, I just -- I have no memory of that at all – 1panzerjensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112215407072209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-17054946942667558182007-10-16T19:33:00.000-07:002007-10-16T19:33:00.000-07:00What monstrous hypocrisy. Your guys are spending ...What monstrous hypocrisy. Your guys are spending our military like beer spilled at a frat party. Most of the Officer Corps is screaming bloody murder at the direct treason of stripping a great nation defenseless. And YOUR response is to heckle me over the words "little fuckup"?<BR/><BR/>When that is exactly what it was, on the geopolitical scale? And that's what Presidents have to do, is sometimes make small fuckups that get a dozen guys killed? What? You want Clinton to achieve wonders with ZERO American casualties? You do?<BR/><BR/>Oops. That's exactly what he did, In the Balkans. And note, I have challenged you directly. In your face, to compare the Balkans and Afghanistan campaign, planned by Clinton Clarke, according to the Powell doctrine, to this quagmire that violates every single criterion of the Powell doctine, as if from a list.<BR/><BR/>Oh, dig it. When those 12 soldiers died becuase of his mistake, LES ASPIN RESIGNED. And we GOT OUT of an insane asylum where we weren't wanted.<BR/><BR/>Note how neocon logic works, fellows. He won't answer about the $2billion dollar attack on an administration that later proved to be the most honest and open in US history. Or savage attacks on the most honest president we ever had. No, he picks on a single turn of phrase and uses polemical tricks to gnaw on it.<BR/><BR/>Watch as he howls "most honest??? He was a perjurer!" Screeching over one PERSONAL fib, while never addressing the overall pattern. BC lied to us once. About consensual adult nookie for which his wfe forgave him. W LIES EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY and hides behind skyrocketing secrecy.<BR/><BR/>Dig it, Panzer. It has taken America 18 years to see through this methodology. But we do now. A million lies is MORE than one lie. <BR/><BR/>Thirty ready brigades is MORE than two. <BR/><BR/>One grumpy general (the number who denounced Clinton) is LESS than forty (the number (so far) who have denounced Bush.<BR/><BR/>Five divorces is more than one. <BR/><BR/>Twenty-five Congressional pervert-corrupt scoundrels is more than three.<BR/><BR/>A popular America with tons of allies is better than a hated America with none.<BR/><BR/>A flush America, paying down debt and the center of world science is better than a spendthrift, bankrupt nation that has turned its back on science, reason, professionalism and common sense, led by people WHO PRAY DAILY FOR THE WORLD TO END.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85184227318929128382007-10-16T19:03:00.000-07:002007-10-16T19:03:00.000-07:00>SO he turnes to a little fuckup at a far corner o...>SO he turnes to a little fuckup at a far corner of Africa.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure the families of the kids who watched their naked corpses get dragged through the streets of Mogadishu are <I>real</I> impressed with that David. If <B>this</B> is what you mean by trying to impress conservative people with their own arguments, I'm not either.<BR/><BR/>What if that had been YOUR son David?panzerjensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112215407072209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-89530256805413053682007-10-16T18:50:00.000-07:002007-10-16T18:50:00.000-07:00Serbia, with a well integrated air defence system,...Serbia, with a well integrated air defence system, (which bagged at least one F117 more than anyone else) wasn't a tough fight?<BR/><BR/>And was it a divisive Clinton who said 'You are either with us or against us'?Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90795748369124010112007-10-16T18:32:00.000-07:002007-10-16T18:32:00.000-07:00>PS the 'clusterfuck' was one of Bush Srs last act...>PS the 'clusterfuck' was one of Bush Srs last acts (Dec 92- May 93)<BR/><BR/>Just leave it to Clinton to cut and run at the first sign of a tough fight though. Like Mark Bowden, author of <I>Blackhawk Down</I> said, "Churchill once said: We will fight them on the beaches, we shall fight on the streets. We will never surrender. But at Somalia we said, we shall fight them on the beaches, we'll fight them on the streets, but if we take a few casualties, we'll up and leave."panzerjensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112215407072209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90154114358341147382007-10-16T18:24:00.000-07:002007-10-16T18:24:00.000-07:00You say they divide people because that's the slan...You say they divide people because that's the slander assertion. It is called the Big Lie, invented by Lenin and by Goebbels.<BR/><BR/>The fact; the far right chose to PUSH division. Bill Clinton appointed republicans to his administration right and left. He decreased secrecy (compared to skyrocketing secrecy under Bush) which is hardly the behavior of people with stuff to hide. ANd he did a LOT better job of fostering enterprise capitalism, by any measure.<BR/><BR/>FIND for me these divisive things they did. You will pick and poke at little things. But dig it, there was no Red state Blue state CIVIL WAR back then. And the Clinton Dole election of 96 was as genteel and sweet as could be, compared to what followed. Because Dole was a man and an American.<BR/><BR/>Somalia? Notice how an ostrich's mind works. The Balkan campaign was major and important, executed perfect, achieved all objectives and increased our leadership of the world. SO he turnes to a little fuckup at a far corner of Africa.<BR/><BR/>Somalia? OMG, where is your SCALE! Les Aspin fucked up supporting a few hundred do-gooder troops with adequate armor. That's called a mistake and one that kiled TWELVE guys. ANd he resigned. ANd it had no effect on our budget, morale, readiness, popularity or alliances.<BR/><BR/>Raising Somalia is like screeching over and over HE LIED about the ONE time you ever caught BC lying, about some nookie in the hallway. Meanwhile, YOUR guys BUGGER CONGRESSIONAL PAGES!<BR/><BR/>And meanwhile, your guys lie as naturally as they breathe. WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD WMD and every other word that escapes their mouths.<BR/><BR/>NOT ONE Clintonite indicted for malfeasance in office. You guys put us thru 2$BILLION and 12 years of living hell for NONE! You guys diverted FBI agents from anti-terror before 9/11 for THAT? (Treason!)<BR/><BR/>Zero... while goppers fall like flies in scandal after scandal. And this should not affect your credibility? Well tough. It does.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66617019422029479982007-10-16T18:06:00.000-07:002007-10-16T18:06:00.000-07:00Greetings Panzerjensen.Use of force is the last re...Greetings Panzerjensen.<BR/><BR/>Use of force is the last resort of the incompetent. However, it can be effective, and nobody ever denied it. (least of all Brin)<BR/><BR/>However, it is now widely accepted (by wide, I mean by virtually everyone who has held a senior rank in the armed services of Western civilisation: flower children all, doubtless) that it was uniquely and spectacularly ineffective when it was instigated by Bush and Rumsfeld.<BR/><BR/>Oh yes, Bush won the war. But he lost the peace.<BR/><BR/>And is still there, 'a dinosaur in a tarpit' (to quote Schwarzkopf)<BR/><BR/>PS the 'clusterfuck' was one of Bush Srs last acts (Dec 92- May 93)<BR/><BR/>PPS Can I use featherswords?Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-61463515557892573192007-10-16T18:00:00.000-07:002007-10-16T18:00:00.000-07:00>Bill Clinton was TEN TIMES the war president that...>Bill Clinton was TEN TIMES the war president that your frat boy coward is.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that clusterfuck in Somalia really proves that. And ah, the political legacy of the Clintons. Good leaders bring people together. This is all a microcosm of what's <B>terribly</B> wrong with Bill and Hillary Clinton.<BR/><BR/>Because all the Clintons do is DIVIDE PEOPLE.<BR/><BR/>PS: I choose lightsabers, not as crude or clumsy as a blaster.panzerjensenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13112215407072209659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73113083555144188572007-10-16T17:28:00.000-07:002007-10-16T17:28:00.000-07:00What utter denial.YOU guys hound a sitting preside...What utter denial.<BR/><BR/>YOU guys hound a sitting president with a BILLION dollars worth of harrassments, all of which wound up reaping WHAT as the fruit of 6 years of screeching and howling?<BR/><BR/>1 Paula Jone hearing and 1 stained dress scandal.<BR/><BR/>NEITHER OF WHICH WOUND UP BEING ABOUT ANYTHING AT ALL.<BR/><BR/> Your screech about slick willy dodging bullets is pathetic. Those very same bullets (including the very question that he "perjured about" in the other scandal) were all ruled ILLEGAL QUESTIONS by a court of law.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, they had nothing whatsoever to do with his performance of the duties that we hired him to do. That's nothing whatsoever. At all.<BR/><BR/>After close toe TWO billion dollars spent seeking smoking guns, and diverting FBI agents from counter terror before 9/11 (treason!) -- how many Clintonites did you guys finally send to jail for official acts? <BR/><BR/>HOW MANY?????<BR/><BR/>You know the answer. None, zip, nada, zero. ANd yet, as Yoda would say "immune to evidence, you are."<BR/><BR/>As for the ad hominem slur about flower children, I challenge you to a duel. I can out shoot you, out fence you and out anything you. Wuss. And Bill Clinton was TEN TIMES the war president that your frat boy coward is.<BR/><BR/>You DARE to compare death rates? You guys screeched because Clinton only had THIRTY BRIGADES at full warfighting readiness. Bush now has two. Hypocrites.<BR/><BR/>Clinton and Clarke changed Europe forever, our popularity soared, moral skyrocketed, readiness increased and we did it all with ZERO US lives lost. Hypocrite.<BR/><BR/>Clinton and Clarke PLANNED the Afghanistan campaign. Bush only had time to yelp "Go!" The Powell Doctrine worked! Then W stabbed Colin Powell in the back and sent out men and women into a quagmire that diametrically reversed the Powell doctrine.<BR/><BR/>We are divided, weakened, hated, bankrupt and completley without allies in a world that hates our guts. Congratulations.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44477184568495999082007-10-16T17:08:00.000-07:002007-10-16T17:08:00.000-07:00And the above, Dr Brin, is exactly what I was afra...And the above, Dr Brin, is exactly what I was afraid would happen if you turned these accusations onto any conservative, ostrich or otherwise. <BR/>"Hipocrite? Me? No! You!"<BR/><BR/>Panzerjensen, <BR/> At least he SHOWED UP. Bush has blocked Congress' attempts to subpoena members of his administration. How do you excuse that?<BR/><BR/> You can't deny that the US Army IS down to two effective brigades, however. You're picking nits about Belgium. What would you have said if Clinton had so effectively castrated the USA's ability to project force, honestly?<BR/><BR/> We admit that we were wrong. Our president didn't send thousands of Americans to their deaths correcting his Daddy's mistake. That's how we beat your ad hominem attack.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com