tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post4217823905325341360..comments2024-03-18T17:09:55.964-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Science Fiction: Expanding into the FutureDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59391372349165423822015-02-06T18:20:19.423-08:002015-02-06T18:20:19.423-08:00onwardonwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-37981485215648309872015-02-06T18:20:11.005-08:002015-02-06T18:20:11.005-08:00LarryHart, later in that same chapter I write:
Su...LarryHart, later in that same chapter I write:<br /><br />Sure, there are ways that a clever theologian could answer this quandary, for example by positing that God would never damn either Huck or our super-saint, nor allow her into hell, no matter how clever or noble her plan, or how mortal her final, voluntary sin. That nobility of intention will over-ride the prim book-keeping of mortal sin.<br /> Or one might swivel the other way and go with damnation, by calling her real sin the crime of arrogance, meriting punishment forever, since it is no mere human's right to interfere with a spiritual order that is beyond our ken. <br /> Other religious thinkers might be willing to stretch their minds along this thought-experiment. C.S. Lewis danced along the edges by offering his fascinated readership sincere efforts to compare secular/altruistic “unselfishness” vs. traditional Christian “love.” I like to think – (perhaps because he was a fellow science fiction author) – that Lewis would have found the notion of a “super-saint” attractive. Indeed, how do we know that it hasn’t happened already, indeed many times? Perhaps legions of such voluntary missionaries – the finest products of religion – are even now wandering through hell, ministering to the damned, gradually wreaking changes that never appear in holy books…<br /><br />Alas, all such rationalizations miss the central point, which is --<br /> Why should egocentric self-concern be elevated to the highest of all human virtues? The most saintly person, who does good works and prays incessantly -- or the Buddhist who meditates with profound intensity -- all do so with their own personal spiritual achievement as a central goal. But when you get right down to it...<br /> What am I? And why should I consider my soul's condition so much more important than a hundred thousand other things that are clearly so much bigger than my miserable self? Like truth? The planet? My species? Posterity? Fairness?<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-79076423065841680192015-02-06T18:20:10.576-08:002015-02-06T18:20:10.576-08:00LarryHart, later in that same chapter I write:
Su...LarryHart, later in that same chapter I write:<br /><br />Sure, there are ways that a clever theologian could answer this quandary, for example by positing that God would never damn either Huck or our super-saint, nor allow her into hell, no matter how clever or noble her plan, or how mortal her final, voluntary sin. That nobility of intention will over-ride the prim book-keeping of mortal sin.<br /> Or one might swivel the other way and go with damnation, by calling her real sin the crime of arrogance, meriting punishment forever, since it is no mere human's right to interfere with a spiritual order that is beyond our ken. <br /> Other religious thinkers might be willing to stretch their minds along this thought-experiment. C.S. Lewis danced along the edges by offering his fascinated readership sincere efforts to compare secular/altruistic “unselfishness” vs. traditional Christian “love.” I like to think – (perhaps because he was a fellow science fiction author) – that Lewis would have found the notion of a “super-saint” attractive. Indeed, how do we know that it hasn’t happened already, indeed many times? Perhaps legions of such voluntary missionaries – the finest products of religion – are even now wandering through hell, ministering to the damned, gradually wreaking changes that never appear in holy books…<br /><br />Alas, all such rationalizations miss the central point, which is --<br /> Why should egocentric self-concern be elevated to the highest of all human virtues? The most saintly person, who does good works and prays incessantly -- or the Buddhist who meditates with profound intensity -- all do so with their own personal spiritual achievement as a central goal. But when you get right down to it...<br /> What am I? And why should I consider my soul's condition so much more important than a hundred thousand other things that are clearly so much bigger than my miserable self? Like truth? The planet? My species? Posterity? Fairness?<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-82579425806767546542015-02-06T17:55:11.601-08:002015-02-06T17:55:11.601-08:00Dr Brin:
...at which point, she then deliberately...Dr Brin:<br /><i><br />...at which point, she then deliberately performs a single, calibrated act of mortal sin! One perpetrated not at all for its own sake, nor out of any base motive, but with a single, clearcut goal. In order to be sentenced to Hell.<br />Whereupon she might then commence her self-chosen mission. The titanic task of ministering to the damned. <br /></i><br /><br />But what if God <b>knows</b> your motive is pure, so He <b>doesn't</b> condemn you for the sin? Could be a Catch-22.<br /><br />:)<br /><br />Look, I'm no Christian and I'm pretty down on religion in general, but I think I can make the case that the saint willing to be burned alive for Jesus's sake is not simply selfish. His reward is for his <b>trust</b> in God, which has to be pretty darned unshakeable to survive the duration in which he's unspeakably tortured to death. "A small price to pay" for eternal reward only if he trusts the word of God or Jesus that eternal reward is actually in the cards. It's the faith that he's being rewarded for, not the suffering.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72614810687664865892015-02-06T17:48:38.774-08:002015-02-06T17:48:38.774-08:00Treebeard:
Science fiction writers like Asimov to...Treebeard:<br /><i><br />Science fiction writers like Asimov took this ethos to an absurd extreme, writing about a galactic civilization where the idea of a “natural world” outside of human control is never mentioned,...<br /></i><br /><br />To me, the Foundation universe wasn't Asimov's <b>prediction</b> of where human civilization was really headed. It was a setting on a grand scale for his stories. A galaxy of inhabited planets as an allegory for a world of inhabited countries. Trantor as New York City writ large.<br /><br /><i><br />I guess that’s why I prefer writers like Herbert, Lovecraft and Dick – because they didn’t use their fiction as vehicles for morality plays or Enlightenment propaganda, and they were willing to consider the possibility that the future will humble us, nature will defeat us, our progressive story will end,...<br /></i> <br /><br />Well, even up-tempo science fiction such as Clarke's "Imperial Earth" hint at dangers lurking out there as we move away from the inner solar system. Likewise Star Trek TNG with the first "Borg" episode.<br /><br /><i><br />and religion may be necessary to cope with that reality.<br /></i><br /><br />I'm not sure I understand those words in that order. To me, you might as well say "and large quantities of alcohol and marijuana may be necessary to cope with that reality."LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40997711824123482402015-02-06T17:34:34.502-08:002015-02-06T17:34:34.502-08:00Dr.Brin,
That's a hypocrisy I saw in the Jude...Dr.Brin,<br /><br />That's a hypocrisy I saw in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition at a very young age. I was the kind of kid who asked the kind of questions that good church-going people don't even want to think about, much less answer. Believe it or not, there is a name for what you are talking about, but in an Eastern tradition. Buddhists speak of "spiritual materialism" which is the desire to get a spiritual status. In Buddhist thought, all those martyrs who blow themselves up thinking they will go to paradise get nothing of the kind. I don't know if this has anything to do with why the history of East Asia is relatively light on holy wars. I don't know if this concept is used in Hinduism, as I don't know a whole lot about Hinduism. This is not to say that East Asia has less bloodshed in its history, just that religion wasn't often used as an excuse for war.Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21100327266944744932015-02-06T13:43:50.899-08:002015-02-06T13:43:50.899-08:00SteveO: "Perhaps a contributing factor to the...SteveO: "Perhaps a contributing factor to the dystopia fascination is the increasing value of the self at the expense of the value of society. The individual is elevated to hero surviving the zombie plague or whatever and the hero is the reader. It is pernicious since it devalues everything about the society that precedes it." Right on.<br /><br />Midboss, very interesting. Alas, I would give 1:3 odds that the simplest explanation for US history, the last 20 years, is that bad GOP governance and Fox stirring civil war have been totally deliberate. Literally deliberate.<br /><br />Paul, SteveO's point goes even deeper. Indeed, to the core hypocrisy of much religious thought, that our sole focus should be on our individual souls.<br /><br />Hey, I am an egotist -- fine. Yes it is blatantly obvious that I am much less important than our shared projects -- humanity, a upfull and +ve sum civilization, a galaxy to save. <br /><br />Let me shine light on the clearest example. Sainthood. (What follows is an except from my religion book.<br /><br />Sure, saints have grit to withstand an hour or so of agony,,, in exchange for eternal bliss and influence. But one wonders how admirably it represents genuine self-sacrifice. If a saint, possessed of grit and determination, truly believes that immolation, upon a pyre, will send her soul hurtling heavenward -- perhaps with a final "I am so outta here, suckas!" -- then just how impressive is her sacrifice, in the deepest moral sense?<br /> Indeed, let's try a simple thought experiment, attempting to envision a more consummately estimable deed. Suppose a kindly person were to give up all hope of heavenly rewards, in order to perform an act of supreme generosity and purpose. Let’s imagine that such an individual led an exemplary life, and perhaps even achieved complete absolution through last rites. Next stop, heavenly reward… <br /> ...at which point, she then deliberately performs a single, calibrated act of mortal sin! One perpetrated not at all for its own sake, nor out of any base motive, but with a single, clearcut goal. In order to be sentenced to Hell. <br /> Whereupon she might then commence her self-chosen mission. The titanic task of ministering to the damned. <br /><br />There is precedent in the Christian tradition. Jesus is said to have -- in his first act after full deification -- taken on the task of harrowing hell, walking its paths and redeeming/removing all those who had led virtuous lives before his own ritual sacrifice washed away Original Sin. (For some). Hence, what better role model could there be for a super-saint who chose, without any clear promise of success or recompense, to plunge into the very worst place, bringing, if nothing else, at least some solace and compassion to the damned? <br /> And perhaps even delivering the greatest human gift of all -- hope?<br /> How could any of the regular saints -- propelled into Heaven by a clearly-promised, self-interested business deal -- hold their heads up, knowing that even one such genuine hero ever lived? Realizing that someone else took on such a thankless, unrewarded, but ultimately magnificent task?<br /><br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25045335986096174322015-02-06T06:44:17.078-08:002015-02-06T06:44:17.078-08:00Wow. three really good posts in a row! Steve, maki...Wow. three really good posts in a row! Steve, making the point about the balance between individual and society that is a fundamental feature of human existence. I have long argued that American culture has, in the past half century or so, shifted too far toward individual rights while ignoring individual responsibilities. Midboss57 with noting the pendular swing in popularity between utopian and dystopian fiction and their historical drivers. Then KevinC's point about the role marketing and big business has played in painting these pictures, and how science fiction can be used as a red herring.<br /><br />While dystopian fiction seems to be all over, I'm not sure how we should even define utopian fiction - especially given the actual meaning of the word (think Greek roots). Would, say, Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels count as utopian? I haven't read them since I was in school, but they were basically about a lost colony that had degenerated technologically over many centuries but were beginning to rediscover their galactic roots. There was plenty of conflict and struggle, though little open warfare. The one really utopian thing about the series was the absence of religion. There were no heresies, holy wars, no one was burned at the stake or boiled in oil. Many people thought this was supremely unrealistic, though unsurprising, given that the author hailed from a nation torn by sectarian strife for centuries. Of course they had a dire common enemy to unite society, so it wasn't exactly hippy dippy. smurfy peace and love stuff. Neither was it the toughest, most brutal bastard gets the dog food tin. There is room between the extremes. Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47628171730384987162015-02-06T03:18:41.731-08:002015-02-06T03:18:41.731-08:00Here's the irony, IMO: the "Glowing Utopi...Here's the irony, IMO: the "Glowing Utopia of Progress" thing that reactionaries like Treebeard like to joust against didn't come from science fiction, it came from <i>marketing</i>. Things like GM's <a href="https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrT6VtEoNRUvtMA2dAnnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTB0c2puYm1xBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1lIUzAwM18x?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&va=Parade+of+Progress&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001" rel="nofollow">Parade of Progress</a>, or those "documentaries" from the 1950's and early '60's about how awesome it was going to be to drive atomic-powered cars on ginormous freeway clover leafs, while the "little lady" got to have a push-button kitchen, etc..<br /><br />But of course, reactionaries generally <i>like</i> the Glow-rious Titans of American Capitalism, so SF writers get the blame instead, whenever they write something that isn't about scrabbling amongst the ruins for the last can of beans.<br /><br />KevinCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11277713665624468102015-02-06T02:59:36.736-08:002015-02-06T02:59:36.736-08:00I think Dystopias are popular in media for several...I think Dystopias are popular in media for several reasons. The first is, as David pointed out, media laziness. That's what's selling right now so everyone tries to cash in. Happened with WW2 game/movies, World of Warcraft clones, endless streams of zombie movies/series/games.... Eventually people will be bored of them due to over saturation and move on to the next fad.<br />I think also the next factor is recent history. Every generation has its defining historical moments both good and awful. WW2, moon landing, Cuba Missile Crisis, the fall of the Berlin Wall... Our history can basically be summed up in two phases: People succeed in performing a great accomplishment or preventing a great evil etc... and the "And then they **** it up" phase. Examples: End of WW1: good, humiliation of Germany afterwards leading to WW2: "and then they **** it up". Defeat of this Axis: good, birth of the cold war realpolitik sleaziness: "and then they **** it up". Fall of Berlin wall and end of Cold War: good, Fall of Russia to robber barons and then rise of Putin: "and then they **** it up".<br />See how it goes ? over all these two phases tend to balance on the long term.<br />The current generation of teens are born either just before or after 2000. Unfortunately, in terms of high profile historical moments so far for this third millennium it's been pretty awful. 9/11, Iraq, the credit crunch and possibly, depending on how thing evolve, Ukraine. We are pretty much in the "And then they **** it up" era of history right now. But eventually, if this cycle continues as it did, we should be soon approaching our next major great accomplishment that would hopefully rekindle a bit of much needed hope if not at least some historical perspective.Midboss57noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59962668578087835632015-02-05T22:47:03.722-08:002015-02-05T22:47:03.722-08:00" Spreading despair is another. "
Oh, a..." Spreading despair is another. "<br /><br />Oh, agreed. Titan by Baxter was terribly depressing for me, and met my definition of dystopia even if it was intended to be a "self-preventing prophecy". Hmm, False Dawn by Yarbro was another one. I read that in the 80s and I still have brain scars.<br /><br />Perhaps a contributing factor to the dystopia fascination is the increasing value of the self at the expense of the value of society. The individual is elevated to hero surviving the zombie plague or whatever and the hero is the reader. It is pernicious since it devalues everything about the society that precedes it.<br /><br />I see this in higher ed as well - no one wants to pay taxes to support universities since "them damn smartypants are the ones who are going to get the good jobs so they should pay for it" completely devaluing the benefit of having those same smartypants paying higher amounts of taxes to support other aspects of our civilization so that doofus doesn't have to.Steve Onoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-51151630493730934862015-02-05T19:47:48.448-08:002015-02-05T19:47:48.448-08:00If Treebeard was suggesting was the intent of SF s...If Treebeard was suggesting was the intent of SF stories was to promote an homogenous nirvana where nothing happens to write stories about, then it is a ridiculous notion.<br /><br />The point I was making in the examples I gave is that SF writers will find challenges in even the most comfortable of utopias. <br /><br />The stories that are told using utopias as a backdrop may either use them as a launching pad (as in Egan's case) or to examine the nature of those utopias, and ask questions like 'how did we get to be like this?', and 'is this a desirable state?'<br /><br />If religion is about answers then SF is not it.<br /><br />Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2729665109253107372015-02-05T18:51:34.416-08:002015-02-05T18:51:34.416-08:00I read "Old Mars". It was very mixed in...I read "Old Mars". It was very mixed in quality with a number of authors just writing a Burroughs or Bradbury type story. I was disappointed. <br /><br />I hope the editors did a better job with this new "Old Vrnus" collection.Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21791728956832873572015-02-05T18:42:27.177-08:002015-02-05T18:42:27.177-08:00I would also add "The Martian" as a posi...I would also add "The Martian" as a positive, "can do" future. It certain;y isn't a dystopia.Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-16296215084191996532015-02-05T18:39:51.625-08:002015-02-05T18:39:51.625-08:00Let's make it easier... Other than Star Trek, ...<i>Let's make it easier... Other than Star Trek, show us ANY optimistic portrayals of the future, communist or otherwise. </i><br /><br />KSRs Pacific Edge, The Mars trilogy<br /><br />Rick Callenbach's Ecotopia.<br /><br />Utopias can be as problematic as dystopias. I prefer stories that are neither.<br /><br />Alex Tolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01556422553154817988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-30445977566275766852015-02-05T18:23:09.639-08:002015-02-05T18:23:09.639-08:00'Homo hubriati' produced by the Enlightenm...'Homo hubriati' produced by the Enlightenment? Hmm... Sounds like a limited (continental) perspective on what the Enlightenment was all about. Try the Scots flavor on for size and you'll see a definite concern for our inclination toward hubris. They (and a couple of folks on the continent) approached things empirically with frank admission of the potential to err and the need to correct.<br /><br />Be wary of the French and German versions. They tended to argue for the dismissal of tradition if it could not be explained as rational behavior. They did a lot of damage when people tossed out hard-earned social lessons.Alfred Differhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01170159981105973192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27738863106283774772015-02-05T17:53:14.967-08:002015-02-05T17:53:14.967-08:00Hah! Notice how he chickened out? I demanded exam...Hah! Notice how he chickened out? I demanded examples of his complaint having EVER actually happened. Indeed, there may be five or six examples, but the trait that he portrayed as the *default* condition of science fiction is - in fact - rarer than hens’ teeth.<br /><br />Yet, instead of admitting he tried to foist a cliched lie… he points offstage and shouts “squirrel! I like Herbert!”<br /><br />Um, who doesn’t like a top quality dystopia? That doesn’t change the fact that you foisted a cliche and a lie.<br /><br />Tony, do try to parse Treebeard’s complaint. That sci fi tends to almost always portray as DESIRABLE utopias that are (from his perspective) despicably homogenizing. In fact, most of the examples you mention portray the lotus eating, homogenized cultures in negative light. Of them all, the one you mentioned that was truly positive, in that a better human society also fostered diversity, contingency and vibrant argument, amid plenty — was Niven’s Known Space universe.<br /><br />Steve O the need for conflict is one thing. Spreading despair is another. See: http://www.davidbrin.com/idiotplot.html<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-89591763253484796032015-02-05T17:31:37.702-08:002015-02-05T17:31:37.702-08:00Treebeard:
I doubt science fiction would be a ver...Treebeard:<br /><i><br />I doubt science fiction would be a very popular religion in a post-collapse future; it seems more likely that they will look back on it as the poisonous mythology of an evil and deluded civilization, just as we look back on most past civilizations and religions today.<br /></i><br /><br />IIRC, you look kindly on past civilizations and religions as having been superior to our own. What makes you think future neo-scios wouldn't do likewise?<br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83359269747478937852015-02-05T17:15:16.097-08:002015-02-05T17:15:16.097-08:00And I should have added to the final sentence: &qu...And I should have added to the final sentence: "the universe will prove stranger than we can suppose." The idea of a mysterious, incomprehensible or magical universe may be the thing that Enlightenment science fiction most deprecates and fears.Treebeardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2382513260941635512015-02-05T17:02:19.995-08:002015-02-05T17:02:19.995-08:00The closest thing I can think of to utopian fictio...The closest thing I can think of to utopian fiction, apart from Sir Thomas More, who originated the term, is the Smurfs.<br /><br />Sorry, my students have been coughing and sneezing on me all week. That's about the best I can manage right now.<br /><br />"The loony thing about cliches is that silly people cling to them, even when they are diametrically opposite to fact... even when they cannot name a single actual example!" <br />Probably a result of the Fallacy Ad Nauseam. If you say it over and over again, some people are going to believe it.Paul Shen-Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-86089675863501321672015-02-05T16:51:12.511-08:002015-02-05T16:51:12.511-08:00Oh I know, there's always villains and conflic...Oh I know, there's always villains and conflicts, 'cuz nobody wants to read about Eloi lounging around or Starship captains playing violins. But these dramas often take place against a certain backdrop that may just be a fantasy. Tony Fisk gets what I'm talking about: the idea, deeply rooted in the ethos of the "homo hubriati" that our Enlightenment produces, that man can, will and should master nature via his scientific knowledge, technological mastery, economic systems, social arrangements, etc. and become Masters of the Universe. Once we do that, then we can have our grand morality plays and dramas.<br /><br />Science fiction writers like Asimov took this ethos to an absurd extreme, writing about a galactic civilization where the idea of a “natural world” outside of human control is never mentioned, psychohistory can predict the future for tens of thousands of years, and almost everything happens within a rather tidy world of technology and abstraction (no doubt reflecting Asimov’s own personality and life experience). Star Trek is similar – the blinding arrogance of 23rd century man as he encounters vastly superior species and natural forces out among the stars is nothing if not a projection of mid-20th century progressive American hubris. <br /><br />I guess that’s why I prefer writers like Herbert, Lovecraft and Dick – because they didn’t use their fiction as vehicles for morality plays or Enlightenment propaganda, and they were willing to consider the possibility that the future will humble us, nature will defeat us, our progressive story will end, and religion may be necessary to cope with that reality.<br />Treebeardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25703316982206085942015-02-05T16:37:19.420-08:002015-02-05T16:37:19.420-08:00Everyone forgets Einstein's compression. We ca...Everyone forgets Einstein's compression. We can experience FTL at 1g, it just takes a few years and then you're gold.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-65062657628587702472015-02-05T15:58:31.505-08:002015-02-05T15:58:31.505-08:00As far as science fiction as religion - I don'...As far as science fiction as religion - I don't see it. If anything, the authors listed would push some future destroyed civilization towards critical examination, rather than mindless acceptance.<br /><br />That said, does science fiction cause us to strive for the probably impossible? I say "Yes!" because even though I know the odds are waaaaaaaaayyyyyy against it, I want us to think about things like alien contact and faster than light drive. Because who knows - maybe if we think on it hard enough, there is a way.Steve Onoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-67044016717989608732015-02-05T15:53:52.969-08:002015-02-05T15:53:52.969-08:00Well I think it is going to be tough to find a uto...Well I think it is going to be tough to find a utopia in any fiction, since a story requires some conflict. Maybe some terrible 1950's pulp short story that no one has ever heard of, or ever should, exists.<br /><br />Even purported utopias in fiction have something interesting going on: the Eloi had the Morlocks, the Lensman the Eddorians, the Foundation had the Mule, the Ecolitans had extreme ethics, etc. What makes a story readable is not a perfect utopia but critical examination of what a utopia even means and what it costs.<br /><br />So I don't think there is going to be any decent "galactic communist utopia" science fiction because I don't think there *can* be decent fiction of any sort with that restriction.<br /><br />Treebeard must not have read much science fiction.Steve Onoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-91392879866388321542015-02-05T15:52:26.468-08:002015-02-05T15:52:26.468-08:00What will help rebuild will be things like diagram...What will help rebuild will be things like diagrams of machine tools, recipes for steel, trigonometry and inorganic chemistry textbooks, etc.<br /><br />Whatever greater or lesser number of people do that, then I think if they also get hold of "old science fiction" then they will be the ones inspired by it. Other folks not so much. Hey, that's kind of the way it is now.Jumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.com