tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post4074174874267105532..comments2024-03-29T00:39:31.629-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Contemptuous Memes Part II: "Cycles of History"David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger178125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41024999487274680342009-11-13T16:19:46.872-08:002009-11-13T16:19:46.872-08:00"...It's just another way of saying "...<i>"...It's just another way of saying "my God is the only God, so you better believe in him or you're going to hell." ..."</i><br /><br />No. It is highly unlikely Jesus believed that nonbelief sent you to eternal torment in Hell. Matthew 25:31-43 (the 'sheep and goats') establishes conduct as more significant than any particular belief.<br /><br />Of course people can and will use any religion to justify killing each other when there is sufficient motive of piracy. The conquistadors bore the cross but took the gold and slaves.<br /><br /><i>"...Who did the Jews really hurt by believing themselves the Chosen People?..."</i><br /><br />The Amalekites. The Samaritarans, when they could. Many others. Even today there are those who won't let you be Jewish unless your mother was converted to Judaism, not merely by ANY rabbi, but by the right SORT of rabbi. This causes real economic harm (comparable to tribal exclusion in American Indian tribes) and is a sore spot among those Jews who think they're sufficiently Jewish but can't satisfy the demands of the excluders.<br /><br /><i>"... On the other hand, the tribe with universalist claims, and resulting missionary zeal, hurt others a great deal more...."</i><br /><br />The "resulting missionary zeal" is a non sequitur. While I think most missionaries are quite wrong-headed, it's not entirely clear that problems arouse from their faith so much as the piratical designs of their backers. <br /><br />One can make all sorts of theoretical arguments about how non-universalists and universalists SHOULD act, but when we get down to cases, universalism is far more humane than tribalism in almost every instance.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46923880556570463162009-11-12T21:17:36.196-08:002009-11-12T21:17:36.196-08:00On to next posting......On to next posting......David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-17854623469081959622009-11-12T18:30:58.993-08:002009-11-12T18:30:58.993-08:00Arthur C. Clarke's Imperial Earth describes in...Arthur C. Clarke's Imperial Earth describes interplanetary craft with an artificial singularity.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21819659432286452622009-11-12T16:20:51.208-08:002009-11-12T16:20:51.208-08:00David Gerrold's Star Wolf series has ships tha...David Gerrold's Star Wolf series has ships that use a singularity to generate energy... or a warp bubble, or something. The same approach appears in a more primitive form in his Dingiliad books. (<em>Leaping to the Stars</em>)<br /><br />James P. Hogan played with the idea of singularities as a star drive in <em>The Gentle Giants of Ganymede</em><br /><br />Heinlein mentioned "Cherenkov drives" in passing in <em>Starship Troopers</em> as I recall.<br /><br />That's the closest I've got. Nothing specific about using the emitted energy.Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618647194288598056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-33453049225792000592009-11-12T14:49:54.096-08:002009-11-12T14:49:54.096-08:00I think Alan Dean Foster proposed using black hole...I think Alan Dean Foster proposed using black holes as part of some interstellar drive. Not sure it was Hawking radiation, though.<br /><br />The Ark ships in Clarke's 'Songs of Distant Earth' used quantum zero point energy, which is similar.<br /><br />The Book of Joby, once you wade through the first bit, starts asking some interesting questions about free will and damnation ... and let's just say that Gabriel compromises himself at a point where the reader says 'and about time too!'.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-87966214773204277612009-11-12T13:23:26.410-08:002009-11-12T13:23:26.410-08:00Can anyone cite a sci fi novel in which starships ...Can anyone cite a sci fi novel in which starships use artificially generated black holes to channel the resulting Hawking radiation as thrust?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14651711973713262612009-11-12T13:04:09.242-08:002009-11-12T13:04:09.242-08:00See Jon Stewart mock Hannity for inflating Bachman...See Jon Stewart mock Hannity for inflating Bachmann rally attendance, trying to pass 9-12 rally footage off as Bachmann rally footage<br /><br />http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200911100063David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27990369964376924522009-11-12T12:55:10.681-08:002009-11-12T12:55:10.681-08:00FWS' statements hit home, especially,
My abi...FWS' statements hit home, especially,<br /><br /><i><br />My ability to learn new things is hurt by my lack of energy. I didn't internalize enough "you can do it" -- so I'm stuck with who I am.<br /></i><br /><br />How do people accomplish anything without a Martha Stewart level of energy? Successful blog-readers care to chime in?David M.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-91298598410693925372009-11-12T10:02:03.562-08:002009-11-12T10:02:03.562-08:00Rewinn said:
It is sufficiently remarkable that H...Rewinn said:<br /><br /><i>It is sufficiently remarkable that He took monotheism beyond its initial tribal state ("There Is Only One God For This One Favored Tribe; Other Tribes Sukkkk!") and into a universal state ("Yes, There Is One God And We Are All In His Tribe"). Is that not a sufficiently remarkable insight for any one?</i><br /><br />It may have started off as a noble idea but I'm not so sure about the consequences. It's just another way of saying "my God is the only God, so you better believe in him or you're going to hell." I mean I know it goes from a closed, exclusive tribe to a tribe that throws open its' membership to everyone, but the latter is still a tribe.<br /><br />Who did the Jews really hurt by believing themselves the Chosen People? On the other hand, the tribe with universalist claims, and resulting missionary zeal, hurt others a great deal more.<br /><br />Once you believe disbelievers are damned, you can either take pity on them and help them achieve salvation (it's hard to do this without being at least a little patronizing) or believe they deserve what's coming to them. If God, who is all-wise and all-knowing, believes they deserve eternal torment, He's probably right.<br /><br />It seems to me, the tribal approach which says "you believe in your god and I'll believe in mine," is far more tolerant. Rather than saying "my God is the only God [no problem here, this is simply your opinion], so everyone else [here's the troubling bit] has to submit to Him too." <br /><br /><i>("Yes, There Is One God And We Are All In His Tribe")</i><br /><br />In short: which God is the One and which is His tribe?socnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25040908998202825482009-11-12T01:13:19.829-08:002009-11-12T01:13:19.829-08:00There's been some discussion about this post a...There's been some discussion about this post at <a href="http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/11/the-garbage-generation/" rel="nofollow">The Spearhead's comments</a>.m.a.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-72932239794450529502009-11-11T23:01:16.763-08:002009-11-11T23:01:16.763-08:00Y'all get crackin' on those Theological Fi...Y'all get crackin' on those Theological Fiction (ThF) novels! If the SF novel has become moribund because all the money is in TV and movies, you may live long and prosper by boldly going in your books where no movie producer will dare.<br /><br />(Look at all grief <i>Life of Brian</i> despite its very conventional theology! And the vastly entertaining <i>Dogma</i> might have been lifted from my Baltimore Catechism.<br /><br />Imagine <i>His Dark Materials</i> not fizzling out, but exploring whether the Adversry turns into George Washington or into Lenin; whether the Republic of Heaven becomes the USA or the USSR.<br /><br />Wouldn't you love a comedy based on <a href="http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project" rel="nofollow">Conservative Bible Project</a> ... what if altering Holy Writ really worked? <br /><br />Or something lighter, based on George Carlin's theory that it's o.k. to have a personal relationship with God but you shouldn't presume on that friendship by asking for changes to the Divine Plan. Since the Plan must be perfect, any prayer asking God for a different outcome must be a problem ... it's <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o" rel="nofollow">near the end of this</a>)<br /><br />===<br /><br />As for Christ and economic theories, y'all made the big points, but let me add:<br /><br />* The question whether one should prioritize personal salvation or group salvation is an ongoing issue for Christianity, as it is for Buddhism and no doubt some other faith systems. While one may not APPROVE of Christians who are focussed solely on the fear of dying and going to hell, it does not make them "lousy Christians"; they're merely wrong, in my view, and, within the structure of that belief, they are far from irrational.<br /><br />* That the fully realized logic of a faith position may lead to absurd results does not prevent such positions from being popular (can't we all think of three examples before our next blink?)<br />If the idea<i> [[Jesus disfavors cooperative good works to systematically eliminate poverty because He requires individual good works for earning grace]]</i> leads to the absurd outcome that we must not systematically eliminate poverty, the fault lies in the idea itself, not in the act of fully working-out the logic. I agree that few, if any, Christians feel an overt belief in the logical outcome, but Christian theology is full of such tangles; this is just one with more obvious economic ramifications.<br /><br />* No text in the Gospels argues against collective action, and Acts pretty much settles the point of the Apostles' attitude. And why would a Good God oppose efficiency anyway?<br /> <br />* As to distinguishing communitarianism vs. socialism: it is not relevant that Jesus did not overtly argue for or against details of economic systems that did not exist at the time, for the same reason that it doesn't matter that he said nothing about self-winding wristwatches. No-one else on the planet had a fully worked-out philosophy distinguishing socialism, communism, communitarianism and all the drearily detailed variations visited upon us by Political Scientist PhDs, so for Christ's sake, give him a pass on this!<br /><br />* Jesus certainly believed in rendering to Caesar, and all that. He didn't anticipate that We The People would become our own Caesar, and thus capable of collectively choosing to do thus-and-such to alleviate suffering; nor could he have anticipated that eliminating poverty would be within our reach. It is sufficiently remarkable that He took monotheism beyond its initial tribal state <i>("There Is Only One God For This One Favored Tribe; Other Tribes Sukkkk!")</i> and into a universal state <i>("Yes, There Is One God And We Are All In His Tribe").</i> Is that not a sufficiently remarkable insight for any one?<br /><br />For a more learned discussion by a much smarter guy than me, <i>(plus a LOT of material for your ThF novel)</i> please see Bishop Spong's <a href="http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780060762070/Jesus_for_the_NonReligious/index.aspx" rel="nofollow">"Jesus for the Non-Religious"</a>rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-31283082072242262382009-11-11T21:43:03.813-08:002009-11-11T21:43:03.813-08:00Ever lived in a commune? The level of coercion th...Ever lived in a commune? The level of coercion that can take place is small and supposedly egalitarian communities can be harsh. <br /><br />Whereas Norway may "coerce" its "socialism"... but based on a VERY wide and democratically determined consensus, in a context that is very laid-back, tolerant, friendly to eccentricity and capitalist enterprise... and MYOB*<br /><br />If you must be a purist about consensus voted taxes being "theft" then Norway is coercive socialism. <br /><br /> But if MYOB is the more important determiner of personal sovereignty, then please, give me Norway over almost ANY commune or collective or utopian community there's ever been.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44116377892813267462009-11-11T20:43:00.618-08:002009-11-11T20:43:00.618-08:00D.Brin: "you cannot deny that for two thousan...D.Brin: "you cannot deny that for two thousand years the relentless emphasis of threats and rewards certainly overwhelmed the latter motive."<br /><br />Nope - I expect Jesus would have been pretty disappointed in "his" church. <br /><br />---------------<br />Communitarian vs socialism - no, I think it's perfectly legitimate to draw a clear line between the two on the basis that the former is voluntary and the latter is not. <br /><br />Why do you want to blur such an obvious, clear and relevant distinction?TwinBeamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53818555552899055082009-11-11T19:00:39.073-08:002009-11-11T19:00:39.073-08:00I have some sympathy for Spengler. Might it be th...I have some sympathy for Spengler. Might it be that he (correctly?) foresaw the coming irrelevance of Europe, and wasn't saying a thing about North America? In the years since, the Great Powers lost their colonies, Europe's iron grip on the diplomatic affairs of the world disappeared, fertility rates dropped below replacement levels over much of the continent, and all but the barbarous nations on the edges have renounced military action. Sure their economies still function (which fact does not follow solely from Marshall's efforts), but this is hardly their golden age of global importance. If Spengler were around today, I think he would find his prognosis for Europe validated.<br /><br />Since like you I currently live in America, I don't associate our glorious nation with those losers that time has passed by. b^) I see our future intertwined with that of Latin America first, and possibly with various slivers of Asia. Of course China, India, and perhaps Russia will be rivals of a sort, but these seem likely to be economic rivalries rather than military or political ones. I think the condition of regular people will only be improved by that.Jessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39696169443087528562009-11-11T18:52:12.569-08:002009-11-11T18:52:12.569-08:00Lithium deficiency in stars, hm?
Interesting...Lithium deficiency in stars, hm?<br /><br />Interesting...Dwight Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14389833479219422837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39493087327878354872009-11-11T18:44:46.948-08:002009-11-11T18:44:46.948-08:00Speaking of experiments:
- A survey of stars know...Speaking of experiments:<br /><br />- <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8354522.stm" rel="nofollow">A survey of stars known to possess planets shows the vast majority to be severely depleted in lithium.</a><br /><br />- <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/national/killer-snail-may-be-life-saver-20091111-i9yg.html" rel="nofollow">Killer snail may be life saver</a> (Cone shell neurotoxin may be a more potent pain-killer than Morphine... and is not an opiate. But is it addictive?)<br /><br />trothle: a partial nuptial agreement (see 'garriage')Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-23714981096234289032009-11-11T17:22:29.434-08:002009-11-11T17:22:29.434-08:00See, now that's also very interesting.See, now that's also very interesting.Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618647194288598056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66395134859487442452009-11-11T17:00:29.337-08:002009-11-11T17:00:29.337-08:00Rob, the doctrine of co-creation is one that also ...Rob, the doctrine of co-creation is one that also evolved in Jewish thought, across the last 500 years... tentatively at first. But it underlies Kabbalah and led to many Jewish scholars grabbing up science just as soon as it was available.<br /><br />Alas, it also led to Marx & Freud. Youngsters in His lab can do weird experiments....David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46702897869493557432009-11-11T16:15:27.348-08:002009-11-11T16:15:27.348-08:00I'm not sure about Fundies, Dr. Brin, but the ...I'm not sure about Fundies, Dr. Brin, but the Catholic Church (according to the News) is interested in searching for alien life. I joked with my father that it was to forcibly convert them to Jesus, and bar that, see if they taste delicious when roasted over an open flame. ^^;;<br /><br />Rob H., all too cynical at times...Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9583715626133562682009-11-11T14:59:33.629-08:002009-11-11T14:59:33.629-08:00But Rob, Mormonism is one of the Judeao-Christian ...<em>But Rob, Mormonism is one of the Judeao-Christian offshots that occurred POST-enlightenment, with full knowledge that the stars are suns and the potentiality of a plenitude of worlds.</em><br /><br />Ah the irony, it was post-Enlightenment Protestants who did most of the persecuting of the Mormons. Post-Enlightenment religious leaders who developed the "curse of Cain/Caanan" nastiness that justified the Portuguese, Spanish, and British slave trades, an infection which took my people a full 130-odd years to throw off. <br /><br />I wouldn't give the Enlightenment nearly as much cachet as you have for the time points between 1830 and 1930.<br /><br />In any case, your congruency with Mormon cosmologies goes far beyond just an elevation of the virtue of ministering to the damned over singing praises for eternity. It's evident in your notion that God wants humans to continue His work, as humans and for the benefit of humans. And a couple other places. <br /><br />This isn't a call to conversion, mind you, just a sort of geeky note-taking of interesting congruencies, arrived at through different methods.Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618647194288598056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-51331063856215930232009-11-11T14:45:15.762-08:002009-11-11T14:45:15.762-08:00The first reference to a doctrine of universal sal...The first reference to a doctrine of universal salvation that I'm aware of is contained in a medieval poem called 'Piers the Plowman'<br /><br />Evangelists to aliens? I suggest you monitor the requests for upload time at Arecibo. <br /><br />(Now your riff on the wisdom of advertising our presence starts to worry me!)<br /><br />elyse: post-hell (pattern matching be blowed: somebody is *definitely* on the other end of this capthca stream!)Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-56020116904427677972009-11-11T14:38:17.633-08:002009-11-11T14:38:17.633-08:00@David Brin
I'm speaking from Alabama, by the...@David Brin<br /><br />I'm speaking from Alabama, by the way. It's likely we're using different definitions of "liberalism." I've been using it to mean "everything except modern conservatism." I'll try to be more specific, but I suspect that in most parts of the country I wouldn't have to be.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17774230311169357530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11422340371809299432009-11-11T13:14:51.607-08:002009-11-11T13:14:51.607-08:00@Rob H., @Illithi: your discussion on incremental ...@Rob H., @Illithi: your discussion on incremental change vs. demanding equality NOW puts me in mind of a scene from the movie <i>Amistad</i>, where the lawyers are arguing strategy. One lawyer argues to plead the case of full abolitionism loudly, proudly... and lose gloriously. Matthew McConaughey's character wants to <i>win</i>... but on a "flawed" argument of property rights that acknowledges the unjust laws for the nonce. Since this is technical "acceptance" of those laws, the self-righteous lawyer wants none of it, and storms off in a huff.<br /><br />The property argument is used. The case wins. And we still remember the story. Would we have, if they had lost? And had they lost, would emancipation have been advanced even a single day?<br /><br />On saints and their destinations, two points:<br /><br />1) Mother Teresa spent most of her life convinced that God had abandoned her.<br /><br />2) Niven and Pournelle have a two-book series on the topic of saints ministering to the damned: <i>Inferno</i> and <i>Inferno II: Escape from Hell</i>. The premise is of Dante's Hell updated... including with the Vatican II reforms that imply, among other things, that non-Catholics are not eternally damned. As a result, the rate of souls exiting Hell is on the rise... and some souls seem especially empowered to speed that process along, with traditional saintly gifts (that of tongues, of commanding spirits, etc.). It's not explicitly stated that they ARE saints ministering to the damned, but it's strongly implied.<br /><br />True fact: I was an adult before I ever heard of the doctrine of universal salvation, much less knew that it was not condemned by the majority of Christian authorities throughout history. Most American Protestant sects try hard to give that impression; it's such a good fear-powered memetic hook.Catfish N. Codnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-64006158604626700312009-11-11T13:05:07.016-08:002009-11-11T13:05:07.016-08:00Here's an interetsing side aspect that I never...Here's an interetsing side aspect that I never thought of, before. Having chickened out and gone to Heaven... might I later have regrets? That I did not do the right thing? Is regret even POSSIBLE, in a state of mega bliss? And if so <i>isn't that ALSO robbing a person of many of the things that it takes to be an actual human being? </i> Is an animatronic puppet singing hosannas, without change or curiosity or ambition, forever, even me?<br /><br />And yes, Rob, The Mormons bypass this quandary. If you are blessed with a high afterlife, that only means you are given tasks and put to work. But Rob, Mormonism is one of the Judeao-Christian offshots that occurred POST-enlightenment, with full knowledge that the stars are suns and the potentiality of a plenitude of worlds. (Scientology is another, eek.) Hence of course, it has some science fiction-sounding aspects to its theology. But please, don't start THAT discussion. (I just spent an hour entertaining and perspective-broadening two bright young Elders on my doorstep!)<br /><br />Stuart said: "I'm 100% sure liberalism is superior..."<br /><br />Oooog will someone please warn Stuart that this is CONTRARY Brin? And while I feel the biggest threat to the Enlightenment THIS DECADE happens to be from the loony right, I am perfectly capable of eviscerating that (large but currently powerless) portion of the Left that is stark, jibbering insane.<br /><br /><br /><i>Shell: The special level of Hell reserved for saints who turn down entrance into Heaven in order to minister the damned.</i><br /><br />Clever! But I think that name is already reserved for where oil company executives go.<br />Rob, your fantasy story about the angel sounds quite moving. Of course many hold that God knows all things in advance... hence predestination plus adherence to the $%$@! Book of Revelations... <br /><br />...even though there are TONS of passages in the Bible both stating that He can and does change his mind... and actively showing him doing so!<br /><br /> I find that all you need to do, to drive a Palin-esque fundie into fits, is to show these passages and to make it plain that -- even if John of Patmos had a "true" vision -- the BoR is long, long obsolete.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-25825532069785944342009-11-11T13:04:38.724-08:002009-11-11T13:04:38.724-08:00Sociotard, yes, it is said that Jesus harrowed Hel...Sociotard, yes, it is said that Jesus harrowed Hell. But of course, did he not go to the cross knowing (with some brief doubts) that glory awaited after brief suffering? (And he died MUCH faster than the usual crucified person. The Roman who speared him was being merciful.)<br /><br />Twinbeam said: "h, and David - your suggestion that a *real* saint would try to go to hell to somehow "minister" to those in hell is cute - but absurd, and probably would constitute the sin of hubris - setting your own judgement higher than God's will for you."<br /><br />Yes, that is exactly right. And that sin, alone, might MERIT Hell. That is, if God were really so vicious as to set up a system like that, in the first place. So? Then the task is done. The saint goes down, simply because -- after an exemplary life -- she had the hubris to want to imitate Jesus. <br /><br />Far more problematic is whether anything CAN be done, down there, to minister to the suffering and help guide some toward relief. Of course, an ominopotent power could arrange things so that her mission is utterly futile... so that the tormented cannot hear her, or so that her own torment clouds her mind and she cannot function.<br /><br />That's what may happen to me, if I face such a choice someday, and if I have the guts to carry through on my vow. But, dig it. If the damned are robbed of their power of reason, their ability to think or speak, their curiosity, their power to regret or repent, and all hope... then <i>what is left of them that is human?</i> <br /><br />What you'll have down there won't be human any longer. It certainly won't be the saint, anymore... or me. It's just puppets, screaming animatronic robots, performing a show fit for an insatiable sadist. No, I am pretty confident that is NOT how things are set up! The author of Maxwell's Equations would do none of those things.<br />And now, let me admit something. I am making these grand statements from a comfortable room, in good health, in the rich and lucky and progressive country that my grandparents had the wisdom to come to. If I ever do face the stark choice, would I actually have the guts?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.com