tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post3828894220998849359..comments2024-03-18T21:52:45.757-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Hypocrites stand up for Liars! While others hold out for truth...David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-11792710173117099272014-03-27T18:21:57.073-07:002014-03-27T18:21:57.073-07:00onwardonwardDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8799372362175170452014-03-27T12:41:07.706-07:002014-03-27T12:41:07.706-07:00I would only support binding federal referendums i...I would only support binding federal referendums if there was:<br />a) a super majority requirement<br />b) very strict referendum financing laws e.g. no donations totaling more than $100 or so<br />c) a very activist court working to overturn such laws on constitutionality bases. With judicial review *before* the laws were enacted<br /><br />As we have seen in Oregon and California the initiative process can work wonders. It also can be used to persecute a minority or institute the will of a well-heeled corporation or church.matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17757867868731829206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-71921661953716655782014-03-27T11:21:25.129-07:002014-03-27T11:21:25.129-07:00Thanks, Paul451!
I either missed or forgot about ...Thanks, Paul451!<br /><br />I either missed or forgot about that one... :-$Eluvatarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879383209054031989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84291505715055175392014-03-27T10:44:30.740-07:002014-03-27T10:44:30.740-07:00Here's an article from the New York Times conc...Here's an article from the New York Times <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/opinion/kristof-a-nation-of-takers.html?_r=0" rel="nofollow">concerning the abuse of subsidies</a> and the coddling of... the rich. Personally I think we need to pass a new Constitution Amendment, allowing for federal referendum votes. If a Referendum gets 100,000 signatures it is put on the ballot. Allow people to vote if they want to strip subsidies to businesses, legalize gay marriage, allow women to have free birth control, and other such things. And have these referendums be binding. <br /><br />In short: bring democracy back to the people.<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-79363218324840451252014-03-27T05:32:06.007-07:002014-03-27T05:32:06.007-07:00A 250km wide asteroid (Chariklo) between Saturn an...A 250km wide asteroid (Chariklo) between Saturn and Uranus has been discovered to have a ring.<br /><br />http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1410/<br /><br />Actually two rings, 2 and 7km wide, 9km apart, 390km radius. Discoverers predict, but have yet to detect, shepherd moons stabilising the rings.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66936142845968629362014-03-27T05:19:21.108-07:002014-03-27T05:19:21.108-07:00The California state Senator, who talked of licens...The California state Senator, who talked of licensing 3d printers during the panic over 3d-printed guns, has been arrested for fraud and possible weapons trafficking.<br /><br />http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-sen-yee-indictment-unsealed-20140326,0,7238867.storyPaul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-50859545617592445882014-03-26T22:10:45.175-07:002014-03-26T22:10:45.175-07:00Eluvatar,
http://davidbrin.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...Eluvatar,<br /><br />http://davidbrin.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/neo-reactionaries-drop-all-pretense-end.htmlPaul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58507417220310530022014-03-26T20:23:58.119-07:002014-03-26T20:23:58.119-07:00Regarding the "Robot Lords" essay: it se...Regarding the "Robot Lords" essay: it seems to me that one overlooked possibility was that the same breakdown in civil authority which would allow rich individuals to possess their own private drone fleets would also allow for crowdsourced assassinations by drone. That would give ordinary people a weapon against the oligarchy, who are few and publicly known. It would also mean that Daily Kos, RedState, Anonymous, and random groups of reddit and YouTube commenters would basically have the power of Kira at their command.Paul Briggshttp://www.locksmithtrilogy.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-21194616357294317822014-03-26T17:01:38.397-07:002014-03-26T17:01:38.397-07:00Our esteemed leader downunder has had at least one...Our esteemed leader downunder has had at least one of his quotes immortalised:<br /><br /><i><a href="http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/05/18/tony-abbotts-struggle-with-the-truth/?wpmp_switcher=mobile" rel="nofollow">"All politicians lie."</a></i><br /><br />Most recently he has been pilloried (even <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australia-like-esteemed-republics-peru-and-guatemala-malcolm-turnbull-gently-mocks-reintroduction-of-knights-and-dames-20140327-35jof.html" rel="nofollow">from within his own party</a>) for reintroducing honours with a monarchic link.<br /><br />Add this to the noticeable lack of a science ministry in his cabinet, and his <a href="http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/03/23/1226026/932862-abbott-new.jpg" title="Ditch the witch and burn the bitch!?" rel="nofollow">relations with former PM 'Ju-liar*' Gillard</a>, and I realise that <a href="https://t.co/ZJ4e5FLMPm" rel="nofollow">Monty Python called it</a>, forty years ago!<br /><br />*Hello? Politician!<br />Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-46626561784697150112014-03-26T14:23:36.108-07:002014-03-26T14:23:36.108-07:00Speaking of modern monarchists on the internet, I ...Speaking of modern monarchists on the internet, I would be interested in seeing you write about "Dark Enlightenment" -- an internet movement opposed to what they name "demotism" and the enlightenment.<br /><br />If you are fortunate enough to have no idea what I'm talking about, there is a <a href="http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/" rel="nofollow">description of their views</a> and <a href="http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/" rel="nofollow">rebuttal</a> I found interesting, which also link to some of the proponents of these views. Eluvatarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16879383209054031989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-32272372221338668682014-03-26T14:22:31.615-07:002014-03-26T14:22:31.615-07:00Seems to me I'd be successfully accsued of lyi...Seems to me I'd be successfully accsued of lying every time I use my debit card at the grocery store, when it asks me "Do you want cash back?" The literally correct answer is "Yes, and lots of it!". However, in order to complete the transaction without costing my bank account more money than necessary, I have to answer "No".<br /><br />Less snarkily, I recall a cynical paean to the quality of sincerity which went something like "If you can fake <b>that</b>, you've got it made." Seems to me that advances in lie-detection would end up encouraging (evolutionarly speaking) those who can best fake sincerity to their own advantage.<br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-5810173534734189342014-03-26T12:12:57.409-07:002014-03-26T12:12:57.409-07:00Do all fiction writers go to prison, then?
If a m...Do all fiction writers go to prison, then?<br /><br />If a malicious (or merely incompetent) employee incorrectly inserts an individual's name into a database of sex offenders, does that constitute a lie? Implicit in the question--does that constitute an assertion of fact? Implicit in <b>that</b> question--do forms of information processing other than verbal sentences constitute assertions of fact?<br /><br />A lesson I learned from the Star Trek TNG episode "Darmok" is that so much of our language is self-referential metaphor. If I claim to live in a "Spartan" dwelling, is that a crime because I don't literally live on the Pelopenisian land mass in Greece? If I claim that GW Bush's executive power grab after 9/11 eerily reflects Hitler's after the Reichstag fire, the judge might not think it <b>appropriate</b> to make the comparison, but is it then a lie?<br /><br />LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-40095946924233773142014-03-26T09:41:19.879-07:002014-03-26T09:41:19.879-07:00On the downside of marijuana, I get the concern fo...On the downside of marijuana, I get the concern for <i>some</i>, but from personal experience, in my younger years, it was a powerful agent in the other direction -- as a software developer, it gave me clarity, more focus, more lucidity; a "stilling" of my mind and more flowering creativity and innovation. I'm not alone in this -- see the history of computing -- it is replete with similar stories.<br /><br />If I lived in a state where marijuana was legal, I'd be eager to experiment. <br /><br />I don't think this is limited to creative class workers either -- manual laborers have been aided by marijuana use (to offset drudgery and repetitiveness of tasks) or chewing cocoa leaves, etc.<br /><br />Again, not proclaiming that there is no harm for ALL in marijuana use. But OTOH, it's hypocritical to be against legalization and not lobby or support alcohol prohibition.Naumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06741963276339044331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49074898764189886902014-03-26T09:33:16.587-07:002014-03-26T09:33:16.587-07:00I for one, look forward to the day that we arrest ...I for one, look forward to the day that we arrest everyone who says the New Deal got us out of the Great Depression.<br /><br />Bwhahahahahahaha!Carl M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01278814334603631598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-15308421305498258392014-03-26T06:34:05.354-07:002014-03-26T06:34:05.354-07:00The problem with current lie detectors is not only...The problem with current lie detectors is not only the unacceptibly high percentage of false positives, but that with training, you can defeat any polygraph system or voice stress analyzer. So any system depending on such is bound to be compromised very quickly.Larry C. Lyonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04315424229764736078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60845079187236174072014-03-26T04:48:14.955-07:002014-03-26T04:48:14.955-07:00Grrrr, wonky link, try this:
http://detritusofemp...Grrrr, wonky link, try this:<br /><br />http://detritusofempire.blogspot.com/2014/03/40-years-with-uncle-hugo.html<br /><br />TTacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-54133236185666241432014-03-26T04:46:34.977-07:002014-03-26T04:46:34.977-07:00Regards criminalizing "lying". Look at ...Regards criminalizing "lying". Look at the furor surrounding various Fact Checking/Truth Squad operations. They are not free from partisan or even subconscious spinning. In general we should not create laws that can't be enforced. Too many of them become partisan cudgels.<br /><br />On a happier note, David have you ever made it to Uncle Hugo's Science Fiction Bookstore in Minneapolis? Marvelous place, claims to be America's longest established SciFi bookstore. <br /><br />Just <a href="http://http://detritusofempire.blogspot.com/2014/03/40-years-with-uncle-hugo.html" rel="nofollow"> celebrated their 40th anniversary</a><br /><br />Tacitus<br />Tacitushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17007086196578740689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47400257439672710532014-03-26T01:51:42.017-07:002014-03-26T01:51:42.017-07:00Re: Criminalised Lying.
The anti-lying law seems t...Re: Criminalised Lying.<br />The anti-lying law seems to be similar to fraud or defamation law, just with the requirement to prove harm removed. Hence, it should be no worse than anti-defamation and anti-fraud laws, and likely to be more narrowly written than those. (Especially if the burden remains on the plaintive/prosecutor to prove an actual "lie", not just an untruth. Ie, an intent to deceive.)<br /><br />That said, the idea of politicians criminalising lying is amusing. "And after the vote, the legislators headed outside to the awaiting prison bus." Was it Heinlein's Venusian political system? After finishing his term, every Venusian politician is automatically imprisoned for corruption. It saves time.<br /><br />Re: Weasel words.<br />I suspect telling a carefully phrased truth with the intent to induce the audience to believe a lie, would be covered by any competently worded anti-lie law. Proving intent would be the difficult part.<br /><br />LarryHart,<br />Officially, 10% of liars can pass polygraphs, 20% of non-liars fail. So you are definitely not alone. (In practice, I'm told, about 50% of people "fail" at least one question.)<br /><br />However, in a large sample, 20% false positive would be unacceptable. So the standard is lowered to near worthlessness. Hence so few serious threats caught by polygraphs in institutions that use them routinely (such as high-ranking moles in the CIA.)<br /><br />With the proposal for autonomous airport "lie-detectors", it's impossible for the false-positive level to be low enough to allow traffic (millions of people), yet still catch bad guys.<br /><br />Say one drug mule every million passengers. An unprecedented 99% accuracy would still have 10,000 people being strip-searched/probed/etc for every <i>one</i> drug-mule. Ie, the falsely accused would make up 9,999 of every 10,000 searched. And to reach that extraordinary 1% false-positive rate, the false-negative rate would need to be raised significantly; so most unprepared drug-mules will make it through without tripping the alarm. And prepared mules will be able to develop simple methods that fool the machine (say, eye-drops or beta-blockers.) And the easiest method, of course, would be to use naive mules. No reaction if they truthfully don't know what they are carrying.<br /><br />For terrorists, where you are looking at one bad guy per hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of passengers, even with an impossible accuracy of 99.9%, you'd have hundreds of thousands, up to millions of people being falsely accused of terrorism for every actual underwear bomber. And since terrorists already do dry-runs to see if they are on a watch-list, then they'll trigger this alarm when they aren't actually carrying the bombs, when they are still lost in the noise of false-positives. Some dry-runs are done with the "martyr" told the bomb is real, at least according to fiction, to test their loyalty, obedience, resolve... gullibility? So only the cell-members who repeatedly beat the system under real-world conditions would be given the actual bombs, meaning that the system won't stop the actual bombers, it will only falsely label millions of innocent people.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60683414041273267872014-03-25T22:44:31.233-07:002014-03-25T22:44:31.233-07:00Notice that I said lying that is "violation o...Notice that I said lying that is "violation of a public trust" and that penalties would be mostly retractions.<br /><br />What? you are used to it being a crime for advertisers to lie, in commercials. Or shouting a lie that the theater is on fire. It is a spectrum and right now we are being torn apart by a tsunami of accountability free, deliberate and relentlessly Nuremberg-spewed lies told lyingly by outright liars.<br /><br />I fee pretty safe that reasonable folks can draw a generous line that only sets an example of the most outrageous civilization destroying jerks.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85147092724637250792014-03-25T20:38:03.259-07:002014-03-25T20:38:03.259-07:00Criminalizing lying is stupid, and incidentally is...Criminalizing lying is stupid, and incidentally is not considered a a violation of human rights.<br /><br />However, I've always thought society might be much better off if there were a lot more *lawsuits* for slander, especially to fight political lies.DavidTCnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-4308241595451045752014-03-25T20:19:25.321-07:002014-03-25T20:19:25.321-07:00On lying:
* Politicians rarely lie. They use what...On lying:<br />* Politicians rarely lie. They use what Teddy Roosevelt called "weasel words". You think that he's saying one thing, but if you listen closely, he's not. For example, Mitt Romney never said that Jeep was moving its production to China (an assertion that may have lost him Ohio.) He said "I read an article that said ..." He very probably did.<br /><br />* It's trivial to fool a lie detector. Just make sure that your spokescritter *thinks* that what he is saying is true.<br /><br />* Any politician knows that how you say something is more important than what you say. In any case, political speech is mostly bluster, rah-rah, dog whistles, and high-level generalizations. Not much to get a hold of there.<br />sgshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18085222245092671709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36420938780519759512014-03-25T19:54:29.858-07:002014-03-25T19:54:29.858-07:00It's important to consider what a "lie de...It's important to consider what a "lie detector" actually detects. There is no such thing as a machine that <b>knows</b> the truth value of a statement independent of the person's perception of its truth. For instance, the following scenario (which is only slightly different from one in the article) is pure fantasy:<br /><i><br />They asked where I was born, and I said "Chicago". Something from the machine cued them to suspect I was lying, even though I've known all my life that I was born at a particular hospital in that city. Years later, on her deathbed, my mother confessed that I had actually been born in Mexico and was brought here illegally as a baby. I was totally shocked and surprised, but somehow, the lie detector had known I was making a false statement.<br /></i><br /><br />If such a thing were possible, they wouldn't have to bother with the interrogation. They could just answer the questions themselves and get a readout from the machine whether the answer was true or not. President Obama could have guessed "Osama bin Ladein is hiding in Jerusalem" and then seen if that statement was true or not. If false, he could guess another spot until it finally registered "true", and there you'd have him.<br /><br />No machine in the next millenium is going to work like that.<br /><br />So what <b>is</b> a lie detector actaully detecting. Typically, they claim to detect signs of apprehension or stress. That may indicate a lie, but it might also indicate something else. In my own case, I am apparently succeptible to the idea that "They're not believing my answer", and that registers physiologically as a "lie".<br /><br />Not exactly sure where I'm going with all this, except to conclude that it depends on your defintion of what a "lie" is (and what the machine's definition of a lie is as well).LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-33661882049665318582014-03-25T18:42:46.765-07:002014-03-25T18:42:46.765-07:00LarryHart those who can defeat lie detectors are o...LarryHart those who can defeat lie detectors are often sociopaths… and there are not detection systems for THOSE...David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-87865412467669759202014-03-25T18:14:33.399-07:002014-03-25T18:14:33.399-07:00An 'Existence' prediction:
Scientists figu...An 'Existence' prediction:<br /><a href="http://grist.org/list/scientists-figured-out-how-to-remove-the-valuable-stuff-from-your-pee/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=tweet&utm_campaign=socialflow" rel="nofollow">Scientists figure out how to remove the P from your pee</a>Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14089081489974992522014-03-25T16:29:23.136-07:002014-03-25T16:29:23.136-07:00Dr Brin, I just read the detailed article you link...Dr Brin, I just read the detailed article you linked to about the new lie detectors.<br /><br />And I still have personal misgivings about how they might "work" on me. No, I'm not claiming I'm so clever I could beat the thing. I'm claiming (from past experience) that I'm likely to register "lying" on the most innocuous of answers. Because I seem to react to the vibe that the interrogator gives off that intimates "Come on, you KNOW you're guilty, so just admit it."<br /><br />And I have to believe I'm not unique in that regard.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.com