tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post346566092137804034..comments2024-03-29T00:39:31.629-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Ratchet up my prediction score... by a mosquito zap!David Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger97125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-3917631617154822002009-04-20T20:33:00.000-07:002009-04-20T20:33:00.000-07:00Do you take credit for Jane Harman, based on your ...Do you take credit for Jane Harman, based on your earlier warnings to be wary of blackmail?<br /><br />Slashdot: <br /><br />"... Incriminating evidence against California rep. Jane Harman was apparently captured some time ago on a legal NSA wiretap. However, Attorney General Gonzales supposedly intervened to drop the case against her because (and this is where the irony meter explodes) Bush officials wanted her to be able to publicly defend the warrantless wiretap program...."<br /><br />http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/1556259Hank Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07521410755553979665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-89866695894447624822009-04-02T03:00:00.000-07:002009-04-02T03:00:00.000-07:00David said: These assholes -- who claim that they ...David said: <I>These assholes -- who claim that they are realpolitik practical men, while liberals are pathetic idealists, have it all wrong. THEY are the impractical fools. They have taken something that was rare, that was done -- under liberals -- only under extreme circumstances, by top professionals, and turned it into a mundane, stupid dimwitted piece of normal procedure...</I><BR/><BR/>This is an argument against torture that no one ever seems to make. It's a powerful one. As the Israelis discovered during the 1990s when they tried using torture on a limited basis against "high-value" Palestinian terrorists to uncover imminent suicide-bombing plots, at first torture was used infrequently. But soon it spread like wildfire, until <B>every</B> Palestinian suspect was being tortured routinely. That was one of the reasons why the Israeli high court banned torture.<BR/><BR/>It's a problem of human nature. When something is unthinkable and psychologically beyond the pale, we place it mentally off-limits. So torture or rape are simply never used in the judicial system as long as we recognize these activities as being beyond the pale of civilized conduct.<BR/><BR/>But as soon as we allow even the smallest exception for the use of these kinds of barbarities, we undergo a process of acclimatization whereby torturing a suspect or raping his wife or killing his children, or whatever, in order to force a confession or extract information soon becomes thinkable, then normative, then routine. <BR/><BR/>As the Sobibor and Auschwitz survivors affirmed, humans can get used to anything and eventually accept it as normal. I think this is a very important reason why we must never accept torture as part of our judicial or police system. Very soon after torture becomes thinkable, it will become such an ordinary everyday occurrence that it gets used in every investigation as a matter of course. We may stare in disbelief at the quotidian use of torture in medieval criminal investigations, but I believe that this is what was going on. Once you allow torture in any part of the judicial or investigative process, it rapidly takes those institutions over entirely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81849038447541811662009-04-01T20:37:00.000-07:002009-04-01T20:37:00.000-07:00I don't know whether this comes under serious gami...I don't know whether this comes under serious gaming, or playing serious, but those interested in prediction registries, emergent crowding and wotnot might like to investigate the Institute For The Future's latest project:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.iftf.org/signtific-release" REL="nofollow">signtific</A><BR/><BR/>And a quick reminder about <A HREF="http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009692.html" REL="nofollow">Worldchanging's funding drive</A>.<BR/><BR/>unlob: to take back that recently launched thermonuclear deviceTony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84759444617255288182009-04-01T11:09:00.000-07:002009-04-01T11:09:00.000-07:00Interesting essay by Simon Johnsonhttp://www.theat...Interesting essay by Simon Johnson<BR/><BR/>http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-adviceBoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10681950101054813872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39196435350237878052009-04-01T10:54:00.000-07:002009-04-01T10:54:00.000-07:00Check this out: http://wrongtomorrow.comCheck this out: <BR/>http://wrongtomorrow.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-518217369222685742009-04-01T10:29:00.000-07:002009-04-01T10:29:00.000-07:00Hey Dragon, welcome to 2006.Bible: ...Hey Dragon, welcome to 2006.<BR/><BR/>Bible: ...David McCabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16603857353437134459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-63225210211443304372009-04-01T09:14:00.000-07:002009-04-01T09:14:00.000-07:00Heh, Limbaugh is at it again... "Never tell as lie...Heh, Limbaugh is at it again... "Never tell as lie" my tail...<BR/><BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0Ilithi Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300247936272572280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44078175750771733492009-04-01T08:32:00.000-07:002009-04-01T08:32:00.000-07:00Maciej Cegłowski wonders about and sets up a predi...Maciej Cegłowski <A HREF="http://idlewords.com/2009/04/wrong_tomorrow.htm" REL="nofollow">wonders about</A> and sets up a <A HREF="http://wrongtomorrow.com/" REL="nofollow">prediction tracker</A>.<BR/><BR/>Remisma: Skill with the dream machine.David McCabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16603857353437134459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18516827413427436542009-03-31T18:31:00.000-07:002009-03-31T18:31:00.000-07:00Yeah, pragmatism isn't "doing anything that could ...Yeah, pragmatism isn't "doing anything that could work, regardless of cost/morality/etc.", that's just a patrioticized version of "What's good for me/my interests, is good." Pragmatism is doing what works best, with the most efficiency and little cost, usually tempered by morality (in much the same way that Sun Tzu's pragmatism in teaching the waging of a quick, fast war that was won before it started was tempered by morality and humanism, since such wars were the least costly to the people and the land).<BR/><BR/>But, then, that's preaching to the choir, isn't it?Ilithi Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300247936272572280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66494557761779012722009-03-31T16:47:00.000-07:002009-03-31T16:47:00.000-07:00In fairness (if that word applies at all here) in ...In fairness (if that word applies at all here) in a brutally time-acute situation, almost anything you can get a guy to babble will at least give your people leads to check out. Free associations to piece together. It's a very narrow set of circumstances that they happen to exploit (in Hollywood bizarro form) on that "24" show.<BR/><BR/> Only now, even the skilled pros who know these circumstances and know what they are doing will have their job made harder by dunces like Cheney, who thought they were "pragmatic men."David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-61925783978774075432009-03-31T09:38:00.000-07:002009-03-31T09:38:00.000-07:00And then you have to consider the fact that inform...And then you have to consider the fact that information gained from torture simply isn't reliable, especially with people who wouldn't crack under 'normal' interrogation methods. They're going to lie first, if they have any stake in keeping their mouth shut (and if they don't, they'd spill under regular interrogation), and they're going to keep on lying until they're broken, at which point they'll say or agree to anything to stop the pain. <BR/><BR/>Yeah, sure, it probably does get results, but how reliable are they? Ask our own troops who were captured in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc., how much they gave up when tortured. How much truth did they tell, and how much did they lie? If the documentaries, interviews, etc. I've seen and read are to be believed, they gave up very little real information, even under severe torture. <BR/><BR/>At best, it's unreliable information, very difficult if not possible to discern truth from fiction without corroborating data from outside sources, at worst, it's deliberate misinformation.Ilithi Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300247936272572280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75550374203912016312009-03-30T21:21:00.000-07:002009-03-30T21:21:00.000-07:00Then there is the pragmatic argument. You often h...Then there is the pragmatic argument. <BR/><BR/>You often hear the "24" argument... that Agent Jack (Kieffer Sutherland) needed to apply severe pressure to get a clearcut wouldbe mass murderer to spill about something heinous and imminent.<BR/><BR/>Um, first, it's... a TV show.<BR/><BR/>Second, Everybody knows that this sort of thing foes on, and has always gone on, in the dark, secret world of professional agents. The movies exaggerate and romanticize and are often absurd. But sure, it always went on and even a great, lawful democracy always knew that it should not look too closely in those corners. <BR/><BR/> In return, the agents and agencies were supposed to be ultra, super-dooper, elites who were trained not only in spycraft but in knowing the boundaries and distinctions. Like between acute/time-sensitive desperate NOW-stuff and stale news that's weeks or months old. Or the difference between a terror mastermind and some dope recruited from a silly-ass hill madrassas. And the difference between a rare betrayal of democracy, for democracy's sake... and a nincompoop, rotten, deliberate rationalization of outright and regularly routine evil, staining democracy's honor out in the open, for all to see.<BR/><BR/>These assholes -- who claim that they are realpolitik practical men, while liberals are pathetic idealists, have it all wrong. THEY are the impractical fools. They have taken something that was rare, that was done -- under liberals -- only under extreme circumstances, by top professionals, and turned it into a mundane, stupid dimwitted piece of normal procedure... and thus not only accomplished nothing (!) AND stained America's honor and cost us allies and recruited thousands of new enemy recruits...<BR/><BR/>...but they have mad things MUCH harder for the real James Bond types, by forcing our civilization to explicitly forbid that which was (under rare circumstances) tacitly allowed. Can you honestly picture any real master agent approving of monstrosities like Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo? If they do, then they aren't the top guys they think they are.<BR/><BR/>It all comes down to a harsh truth that neither liberals nor conservatives will admit. Liberals LIKE to see themselves the way conservatives portray them -- as the idealists, because idealism seems associated with progress.<BR/><BR/>But that is all wrong. Progress has been pragmatic, with a gloss of idealism to help propel it along. It is pragmatic to eliminate prejudice because prejudice is horribly inefficient, wastes vast amounts of human talent, engenders social stress and rebellion, and gives excuses for would be tyrants. Likewise, it is no accident that liberal administrations both guard the borders better, for orderly immigration, AND regulate capitalism far better, achieving economic results vastly better that right wing administrations... because liberalism was, is and always will be about making the market etc tools work better.<BR/><BR/>It is conservatism that is "idealistic" in the same sense that Mark Twin pointed out, when romantic assholes wallowed in Sir Walter Scott and plunged America into Civil War, under a cloud of dreamy rationalizations the boiled down to feudalist thuggery. <BR/><BR/>No, Guantanamo is exactly what you'd expect from jerks who claim they are the pragmatic worldly men... but who savagely undermined the skilled professionals and now leave them cut off, at the knees.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-85499583307189018892009-03-30T15:57:00.000-07:002009-03-30T15:57:00.000-07:00Yeah, that's true, Todd... Most of the people I've...Yeah, that's true, Todd... Most of the people I've known who support waterboarding tend to be the types who are really only concerned about standards or consequences for other people, not themselves. The few remaining think it's acceptable for the security of the nation. But there are plenty of people I know who are on the fence about it who would be swayed.Ilithi Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300247936272572280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-42604298335899779332009-03-30T10:58:00.000-07:002009-03-30T10:58:00.000-07:00Re "Starvin' Marvin in Space" see Mary Doria Russe...Re "Starvin' Marvin in Space" see Mary Doria Russel's "The Sparrow". Different setup but a "Missionaries in Space" story.<BR/><BR/>Re the "if waterboarding isn't torture then it's OK for captured American soldiers to be waterboarded" rejoinder, during the past several years I have seen that tried several times by Pentagon spokespeople and others, and as far as I can tell it hasn't shut anyone up yet.ToddRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90522594349311653822009-03-30T05:18:00.000-07:002009-03-30T05:18:00.000-07:00You guys are awesome, and this is why I love readi...You guys are awesome, and this is why I love reading this blog (though it takes a while to read through and digest it all...). I think I'll have some comments later, when I get the chance to finish digesting everything and have enough time to write one.<BR/><BR/>For now, though, a thought on waterboarding. The whole thing makes me sick, and the attempts at justifying it fill me with outrage, and the lack of any swift, decisive action in approaching it as what it is, and putting the people who allowed and encouraged it on trial as war criminals, makes me even angrier.<BR/><BR/>However, if you're dealing with people who are particular stubborn about insisting that waterboarding isn't torture, and that even if it is, it yielded results (like those listed in Cheney's reports that are so top-secret they're classified as "Non-Existent"), here's a point to bring up that will probably shut them up real quick, especially if they do have kids in the military. If waterboarding isn't torture, and we're allowed to use it, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with our enemies waterboarding captured U.S. soldiers to gain information and/or confessions. Anyone who is in favor of the U.S. waterboarding alleged terror suspects, should then have no issue with their own children being waterboarded should they serve in the military and be captured by enemy forces.Ilithi Dragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10300247936272572280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44857317363137057342009-03-30T00:35:00.000-07:002009-03-30T00:35:00.000-07:00The closest I can think of to the Galactic Mission...The closest I can think of to the Galactic Missionary Movement is the South Park episode "Starvin' Marvin in Space". A bunch of missionaries hear that the aliens on Marklar don't know about Jesus, and build a ship to fix that.sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83307004800267348752009-03-29T22:04:00.000-07:002009-03-29T22:04:00.000-07:00I see the "children's books" link has been correct...I see the "children's books" link has been corrected now. Not that the article there is very enlightening, giving no more detail about their reasoning or the nature of the supposed "hazard" than the blog post here did. But that's hardly anyone here's fault.<BR/><BR/>Meantime, this is worrying from the perspective of "cronies of the king" undermining free market efficiency:<BR/><BR/>http://www.onthecommons.org/content.php?id=2408Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27229067624205787462009-03-29T20:25:00.000-07:002009-03-29T20:25:00.000-07:00David, I don't know the answer to the first query ...David, I don't know the answer to the first query about Xian fundamentalists advocating space exploration (but there is a long history of Xian interest in UFOS noted <A HREF="http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/seraphim/signs/ufo.shtml" REL="nofollow">here</A>), but I do know that Stephen Pinker's TED talk "A Brief History of Violence" made a big impact. AFAICT Pinker is the first one to zero in on the evidence for humanity's long-term decrease in violence. <BR/><BR/>Here's Pinker's TED talk on YouTube:<BR/>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk<BR/><BR/>Pinker converted it to a paper you can find here:<BR/>http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2007_03_19_New%20Republic.pdf<BR/><BR/>If scholars have claimed that humans are getting wiser, it must have been before the global economic meltdown. I don't see a lot of evidence for it. <BR/><BR/>In fact, there's a fine article titled "Why Don't Leaders Learn From History?" at the Harvard Business School site here:<BR/>http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/mayo/2007/09/why_dont_we_learn_from_history_1.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18043635000144120722009-03-29T16:54:00.000-07:002009-03-29T16:54:00.000-07:00TonyI believe I have read most of Lewis' work and ...Tony<BR/><BR/>I believe I have read most of Lewis' work and enjoyed almost all of it. Yes, Perelandra, but if you really want to see his views on the role of alien and God you must read Out of the Silent Planet. Scathing critique on interplanetary imperialism.<BR/><BR/>On a good day, C.S. had imagination to put even our genial host to shame.<BR/><BR/>May we all someday be hnau.<BR/><BR/>Tacitus2tacitus2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-67452914761365810452009-03-29T16:27:00.000-07:002009-03-29T16:27:00.000-07:00Second 'The Way of Cross and Dragon' (also Anderso...Second 'The Way of Cross and Dragon' (also Anderson's 'High Crusade').<BR/><BR/>Neither of these stories are quite what was wanted, though.<BR/><BR/>Some stats on comparing trends over time can be read on <A HREF="http://graphs.gapminder.org/world/" REL="nofollow">Gapminder</A>. Hans Rosling gives a number of videos using this data (eg the reduction in extreme poverty).<BR/><BR/>t2, which Lewis are we talking about? Have you tried 'Perelandra' (also known as 'Voyage to Venus'), which is a re-take on the Book of Genesis.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-26358223135441191342009-03-29T13:59:00.000-07:002009-03-29T13:59:00.000-07:00C.S. Lewis would have you imagine that the aliens ...C.S. Lewis would have you imagine that the aliens are way ahead of us in their relationship with God, and that we humans would do best to stay home and not muck things up out there in the Field of Arbol.<BR/><BR/>Tacitus2tacitus2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8041355428917969142009-03-29T13:42:00.000-07:002009-03-29T13:42:00.000-07:00Not what you're looking for, but The Way of Cross ...Not what you're looking for, but <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon" REL="nofollow">The Way of Cross and Dragon</A> is related and worth reading.David McCabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16603857353437134459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-13956777416806102752009-03-29T13:39:00.000-07:002009-03-29T13:39:00.000-07:00Another help-me.Earlier we discussed the iconoclas...Another help-me.<BR/><BR/>Earlier we discussed the iconoclasts out there who are accumulating evidence that our wisdom and behavior, not just science, are getting better.<BR/><BR/>Anyone recall who the top guys are, pointing out that net violence andetc have declined dramatically, since 1945?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-67491721499787039692009-03-29T11:26:00.000-07:002009-03-29T11:26:00.000-07:00I need you guys to be useful, from time to time.I ...I need you guys to be useful, from time to time.<BR/><BR/>I am exploring this concept:<BR/>A few of the most imaginative in the fundamentalist community have taken a sudden liking to this imagery. They have even begun transferring their temporal fealty away from fixating on a looming Book of Revelations end time, turning their future fantasy-expectations instead toward a much more open-ended scenario – envisioning humanity charged with a transcendent (and somewhat science fictional) mission to carry God’s word to the myriad heathen who await out there, amid the innumerable stars! <BR/> if this gives you some familiar shivers of 19th Century déjà vu, well, at least it beats the hell (literally) out of all that hand-rubbing yearning for Armageddon.<BR/><BR/>But I've lost all citations and never tracked names. Can any of you find out who it is, in the fundie community, who has started spreading this new, sfnal Christian notion that - instead of some nearly-here Revelations End Time, we'll be charged to go conquer and convert the space heathen?David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-37417832872502854692009-03-29T10:00:00.000-07:002009-03-29T10:00:00.000-07:00TwinBeam said...Jester and Captain Shatner - you s...<I> TwinBeam said...<BR/>Jester and Captain Shatner - you seem to have mistaken me for someone who'd take offense at criticism of Ayn Rand or her books. Sorry - no joy for you. My reason for posting was simply that people have been attacking those at AIG who didn't cause the mess, and who are trying to restore order. As a result, the people at AIG are now simply shrugging and asking "Why did I bother - this country doesn't deserve my hard work. I'm outa here." Surely, even with apparently having not actually read the book, you can see the analogy?</I><BR/><BR/>>> The lack of Joy I feel is in coming across people that can't smell a skunk. Not in telling them they stepped in a skunk and them laughing at me for not appreciating their expensive cologne. I wrinkle up my nose and think to myself; <I>He actually paid for that?</I><BR/>I just want to revisit how insulting your comment is to intelligence. The idea that the AIG executives got into trouble "helping America." I was silly enough to think they were a bunch of self-serving opportunists, who moved money from safe and prudent investments, into high risk ventures. The mortgages that banks were "forced to give to unethical poor people" were not covered because the the damn Private Mortgage Insurance was being bet on the ponies at the race track. But hey, I guess if you take the families money and put it all on the Roulette wheel, in order to put the money back later -- you are just trying to help out. Because making yourself wealthier, will make you so much more fun to be around at Thanksgiving.<BR/><BR/>You accuse people of not reading Atlas Shrugged and then point out you are not an expert. Hey, I'm guilty. I read two chapters and almost puked. When I have some apologist trying to "lecture me" in human nature, based upon their on <I>'just so story'</I> -- it kind of turns my stomach. The great Randian leaders like Greenspan, wall street robber barons, and Neal Bortz,... you know, I don't know anyone I fully respect that likes her drivel.<BR/><BR/>People who "flirted with Objectivism" is like people who tried torture, but didn't like it too much. "The screaming hurt my ears." Waterboarding, I guess, is more ethical, because the torturer, doesn't have to wear ear plugs.<BR/><BR/>>> And it makes me SO ANGRY, that the poor or the Liberal, get blamed for the treatment of all the "smart and hard working people." Sorry, but I'm smart and hard working, too. This is just the "hey, all us good people are getting attacked!" When we criticized George Bush -- it was the troops, America, Religion, or Mother Theresa we were against. Nobody screams more than a NeoCon being held to the same standards they prescribe. Bush was a robber baron punk--who hid behind whatever large object he could find. The whole philosophy behind Globalism, is firmly supported by the people who ascribe to the "noble opportunist" form of capitalism. Yet it is Globalism, that is the reason that all the Smart Hard working people are getting the shaft. Their good jobs went to India. As soon as India costs too much, the good paying jobs will leave their smart hard-working people and go someplace else.<BR/><BR/>Atlas Shrugged is kind of like the Turner Diaries. The idea is, that if you could just find a way to get all the poor parasites, to do without all the smart hard working people for a while -- they would implode. But wait; who is going to pick the strawberries and FEED all the smart hard working people? Does the CEO club, that runs all the money-making institutions, actually know how to run a farm, or build a barn? As soon as you get rid of the people below the curve -- someone in that group is going to be below the curve as well. And what about those below the curve -- you don't think that you can't find someone to tell others what to do and make more money? Maybe that is a magical skill that only God can provide.<BR/><BR/>The Robber Barons are playing these people, and setting them against Mexicans, or Liberals, or Amnesty International. 16 cases of voting fraud, being prosecuted at Acorn -- and nothing is mentioned about all that information that lead to the cases coming from Acorn itself. Oh my, someone is hiring poor folks to get poor folks voting! This is the greatest threat to Democracy -- quick, nobody pay attention to the hundreds of cases of proof that voting machines were designed to be rigged, and are "failing" constantly. No, we can't follow the money at AIG, we've got to go after a few homeowners who got mortgages they couldn't afford and are now homeless.<BR/><BR/>Those damn "godlike" hard working smart people, being beset on all sides by Welfare Queens. Every time I think of that book now, I think of Rush Limbaugh at his recent Republican press junket wearing black silk and gold chains with his hair slicked back and his shirt open. The media didn't show the standing ovations of dissent against this Mobster fop. Yeah, I can see all the burden this guy has to go through. There's your Atlas. And he needs Viagra to get any sort of a lift at all, like the rest of his macho girly men cowards. Hiding their self disgust with Cheshire Cat self-satisfaction and aqua velva.Fake_William_Shatnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027049743048836086noreply@blogger.com