tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post3451915163107398610..comments2024-03-28T04:58:13.341-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Honoring Ray Bradbury ... by Exploring TomorrowDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36176595913631780702012-06-11T01:58:44.068-07:002012-06-11T01:58:44.068-07:00I would think the killer for the aquatic ape theor...I would think the killer for the aquatic ape theory was to just look at how utterly rubbish humans are in the water, how badly designed we are. <br /><br />It's funny how two different people can see the same facts<br /><br />I see a creature that works well in the water with;<br />Funny nose - only good in water<br />The ability to consciously control breathing - something no terrestrial animal seems to have<br />A well developed "diving reflex"<br /><br />I will go into that further - if you bath your face in cold water a whole series of changes happen - the net result is that your scuba tank lasts a lot longer<br />Originally this was not an issue!<br /><br />I see a terrestrial animal with a lot of aquatic traits <br /><br />A skin diving human is not going to chase fish - but lots of bottom dwellers are delicious<br />And the eye location means that when floating on your tummy you are placed to reach down and grab them<br /><br />People are much better in the water than other terrestrial animals - a period of littoral development makes more sense than a whole lot of coincidencesduncan cairncrossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-29373785901344496232012-06-10T23:22:03.802-07:002012-06-10T23:22:03.802-07:00onward!
(Oh, you can sign up for the newsletter ...onward!<br /><br /><br />(Oh, you can sign up for the newsletter easy, at the bottom of the main page at http://www.davidbrin.comDavid Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14250603780863858742012-06-10T19:15:07.249-07:002012-06-10T19:15:07.249-07:00it's a wonderful article, please continue post...it's a wonderful article, please continue post the interesting writing! thank you.Paper cup making machinehttp://www.papercupmakingmachine.co.in/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34726251624735848072012-06-10T17:43:10.712-07:002012-06-10T17:43:10.712-07:00HEAP BIG ANNOUNCEMENT to the blogmunity!
I am abo...HEAP BIG ANNOUNCEMENT to the blogmunity!<br /><br />I am about to send out my generally one a year newsletter to my fan list. Some of you are already on the stack of email addresses. Others not. If you are unsure and want a copy sent to you, Drop me a line RIGHT AWAY at <br /><br />davidbrin@sbcglobal.net<br /><br />Other announcements forthcoming... <br /><br />My Shindig videoconference... sign up in advance at Shindig.com<br /><br />A tweet extravaganza 6/20 at 1pm Pacific #TorChat<br /><br />And a Reddit "Ask Me Anything" tentatively scheduled for June 26, 3pm Pacific (6pm Eastern and 2300GMT) Until... whenever!David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81639070542178406892012-06-10T16:02:22.560-07:002012-06-10T16:02:22.560-07:00rather wry review of Prometheus.
http://digitaldig...rather wry review of Prometheus.<br />http://digitaldigging.net/prometheus-an-archaeological-perspective/David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-37048409483976683442012-06-10T10:14:10.783-07:002012-06-10T10:14:10.783-07:00Re @rewinn's comment, there are people not tha...Re @rewinn's comment, there are people not that much older than I am (only 20, 25 years or so, one generation) who can remember why a local waterway called "Salmon Creek" had its name. As late as 1940-1950 the spawning runs in every Columbia River Valley creek were as thick with salmon as they were with water. You could spear two fish just by thrusting six spears at random into the water. <br /><br />Ugly fish, though. Coho have these nasty faces... :-)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541997928359883625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-7590288042875376342012-06-10T06:42:37.823-07:002012-06-10T06:42:37.823-07:00Paul, there are a number of animal examples of abn...Paul, there are a number of animal examples of abnormal myostatin regulation.<br /><br />Apparently it does tend to cause health problems but I donlt knwo the details.<br /><br />Currently there are two examples of children with abnormal myostatin regulation- one boy in Germany who inherited a defective myostatin gene from both his parensts and one kid in the US who has a non-operative gene for the myostatin receptor.<br /><br />Until they grow up we really won't know what the health implications for humans are.<br /><br />(It occurs to me that the extinct Titanthopus lineage might have found another way aroudn this problem. Get big enough and you can support a human-sized brain on 8% of metabolic energy.)Ian Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04352147295160200128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8892073418914602022012-06-10T04:40:00.209-07:002012-06-10T04:40:00.209-07:00Re: Aquatic ape theory
Hiding from predators by g...Re: Aquatic ape theory<br /><br />Hiding from predators by going <i>into</i> the water? Wha'?<br /><br />I would think the killer for the aquatic ape theory was to just look at how utterly rubbish humans are in the water, how badly designed we are. Our nostrils don't close, and point downwards making it hard to snorkel, our eyes are in the wrong spot for swimming, our head is a stupid drag-inducing shape in the water (ditto shoulders). And we're <i>so</i> slow. Oh, and if we fall asleep in the water, we drown. Meaning we have to sleep on land. With the predators.<br /><br />I get that we'd <i>use</i> the water, because adaptability is kind of our whole thing, but we clearly didn't evolve in the water.<br /><br />Ian,<br /><i>"humans have an overactive Myostatin gene. [...] at some point, tool use or greater group size and co-operation meant that it was no longer cost-effective to carry aroudn all that extra muscle."</i><br /><br />Interestingly, since we (in the west) have an over-abundance of calories, we could now carry the extra cost of more muscle. Are there other costs (re: Kelsey's comment about lifespan) that would outweigh the benefits of added strength and, I assume, easier to maintain fitness?<br /><br />(1 udityli - with extra ude.)Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60878903645467837762012-06-09T22:48:19.176-07:002012-06-09T22:48:19.176-07:00The shore of the Salish Sea (from Puget Sound up t...The shore of the Salish Sea (from Puget Sound up to Vancouver Island) may have had <b>too much food</b> for the development of a civilization oriented around either technology or property rights.<br />The Duwamish looked pretty darn primitive to the settlers of present-day Seattle, but they were very well fed for when the tide was out, they were <a rel="nofollow">"surrounded by acres of clams"</a>. More recently father-in-law grew up along Hood's Canal and remembers being told as a child to go pick something for dinner ... so he'd row out, dive in, and come back with a load of protein. Then there's the salmon ...<br /><br />I doubt that shore living can be casually linked to absence of hair, if only because the only marine mammals that aren't hairy are those with piscine shapes, but shores would seem to be a very comfortable niche for hominids who prefer strolling to running.rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83079428291604395042012-06-09T20:27:12.751-07:002012-06-09T20:27:12.751-07:00From a brief online check, the earliest known shel...From a brief online check, the earliest known shell middens go back about 140000 years: a little earlier than H Sap.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8101436788800552162012-06-09T20:10:41.299-07:002012-06-09T20:10:41.299-07:00In nonhuman primates and monkeys, there's a cl...In nonhuman primates and monkeys, there's a close correlation between brain size and social group size.<br /><br />If the same applies to our ancestors, then our attempts to imagine one or two Australopithecines driving off scavengers or hunting prey are incorrect.<br /><br />Instead we should imagine a pack of a dozen or more, screaming and throwing stones.Ian Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04352147295160200128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-567687667863180312012-06-09T19:43:54.074-07:002012-06-09T19:43:54.074-07:00I was thinking about variation in human shapes
Po...I was thinking about variation in human shapes<br /><br />Polynesians tend to - get fat all over - you end up with big guys with thick limbs<br /><br />As probably the most "aquatic" human primitives this would tend to add weight to the aquatic = fat under the skin theory<br /><br />The midden heaps would show primitives did spend some time at the beach - are there beach midden heaps for pre-man or just for Homo Sapiens?duncan cairncrossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90504904637913479032012-06-09T19:20:28.569-07:002012-06-09T19:20:28.569-07:00Once you factor in tools, even primitive ones like...Once you factor in tools, even primitive ones like pointy sticks, all sorts of options open up. A sharp stone or bone or shell flake lets you pry loose limpets and cut seaweed fronds, as well as cutting up fish and scraping out shells. Tools also make possible the transition from scavenging and gathering only, to actively hunting. Enough fish school in shallow water close to shore that spearing is an option.<br /><br />Most primitive peoples wouldn't restrict themselves to only one place; they would range out as an area became depleted of food. Hunger is a powerful motivation!<br /><br />TheMadLibrarian<br />6 tsorur: The Six Troubles of LegendTheMadLibrariannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-8982394014450737652012-06-09T17:29:59.651-07:002012-06-09T17:29:59.651-07:00Not much food at the beach? Midden heaps suggest o...Not much food at the beach? Midden heaps suggest otherwise! Then again, discerning omnivores would probably sample a variety of environments.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-87525740675607240402012-06-09T17:24:55.594-07:002012-06-09T17:24:55.594-07:00...if the bone crunching hyenas left you any. Or t......if the bone crunching hyenas left you any. Or the vultures who used gravity as their cracker...although those might be chased off, our ancestors weren't all that big.Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-80075265440665556622012-06-09T17:20:43.540-07:002012-06-09T17:20:43.540-07:00Aquatic apes
I found the human fat allocation ver...Aquatic apes<br /><br />I found the human fat allocation very interesting<br />Land animals normally store the vast majority of the fat store in the abdomen - as do chimps<br /><br />Humans store fat under the skin spread across the entire body <br />as do marine mammals and things like hippos<br /><br />Interestingly enough pigs store the fat under the skin<br /><br />Humans and pigs also are a bit lacking in the fur department<br />(as are hippos)<br /><br />Mammals in hot places still have fur<br /><br />Fur seems to be OK for getting wet - but maybe not for getting wet and muddy<br /><br />The is idea that we had a beachcomber - paddling stage <br /><br />and that pigs had a squishing about in the mud at the edges of rivers stage makes sense to me <br /><br />The higher fat for women - I won't go into where (that may be sexual selection) also makes sense - we know from hunter-gatherer societies that the women do most of the food gathering <br /><br />Another thought just struck me - we think of the seashore as the beaches (sand)<br />These are actually like deserts in some ways not a lot of food there<br /> - mud flats may not appeal to us but there is hugely more food available there<br /><br />Maybe our ancestors did their "beach-combing" in the mudduncan cairncrossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-32569785089782985432012-06-09T16:20:28.653-07:002012-06-09T16:20:28.653-07:00The thing I found plausible was that beachcombing ...The thing I found plausible was that beachcombing in tide pools and looking for clam bubbles gave humans with free, agile hand (guiding sticks) a huge advantage in digging up and prying loose shellfish, a niche available to no one else. We know many tribes did this.<br /><br />Earlier, the emergency food supply was the marrow inside big animal bones, after the scavengers departed.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9341092290246963372012-06-09T12:46:14.420-07:002012-06-09T12:46:14.420-07:00Ian,
What little I know about human physiology as...Ian,<br /><br />What little I know about human physiology as compared to other primates is that we are significantly weaker not so much because of our muscles but because of where the anchor points are. In chimps, the anchor points give a lot more leverage since they are farther from the joint, but muscles contract fairly slowly, so they can't have as quick a reaction as we humans do even though they are stronger. Whereas with our anchor points closer to the joints, a small muscle contraction moves the limb faster, but more weakly.<br /><br />So in addition to long-distance running, we have faster reactions, which must have also benefited our ancestors.<br /><br />Evolution: the ultimate mosaic.SteveOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04028435196419643147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83450723342302128742012-06-09T12:42:17.123-07:002012-06-09T12:42:17.123-07:00Hi Duncan,
Yes, I have read numerous articles on ...Hi Duncan,<br /><br />Yes, I have read numerous articles on aspects of the aquatic ape theory, that was one that talked about the theory as a whole, with the larger context being that there is probably no one "reason" why humans turned out they way they did. There are lots more on the specific predictions. Really the only thing at this point that seems to hold water (pun intended) is that at least some of our ancestors, and some Neanderthals, found the coast to provide an easy source of food, which in turn nourished our oversized brains (and provided a constant source of iodine).<br /><br />There just isn't any major part of the aquatic ape theory which is parsimonious. If you think there is one, let me know. I mean, women have larger fat content in thighs and breasts so that they float in the water when hiding from predators? Yeesh...SteveOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04028435196419643147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-78453868916254162222012-06-09T06:56:47.093-07:002012-06-09T06:56:47.093-07:00Hollywood wises up; consults scientists for SF
htt...Hollywood wises up; consults scientists for SF<br />http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/reel-geniuses-program-gives-hollywood-writers-access-to-scientists/2012/06/08/gJQAsVAbNV_story.htmlJumperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11794110173836133321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-12286931867765293302012-06-09T05:39:43.756-07:002012-06-09T05:39:43.756-07:00This week;s New Scientist ahs an article on human ...This week;s New Scientist ahs an article on human evolution which doesn't mention myostatin but does talk about another gene which codes for a protein involved in glucose from the bloodstream<br /><br />The human version of that potein is much more active in the brain and much less active in the muscles than the equivalent protein in other primates.<br /><br />Brain tissue is surprisingly energy-hungry. The human brain uses around 20% of resting metabolic energy compared with 8% in Chimpanzees.<br /><br />So it looks like we diverted energy from our muscles to our brains meaning we couldn;t make as effective use of large muscles.Ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01739671401151990700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55260025557385287332012-06-09T04:45:12.842-07:002012-06-09T04:45:12.842-07:00I think it is possible that greater myostatin prod...I think it is possible that greater myostatin production is one of the factors that helps humans live longer than our primate cousins.<br /><br />According to what I've seen so far, myostatin inhibitors increase muscle at the cost of producing fat which we need and greater chance of injury to tendons.<br /><br />So by increasing myostatin production humans traded greater strength (not as essential to social animals who could work together) for less chance of injury, possibly meaning a greater chance of an individual living long enough to transfer knowledge to younger generations.Kelseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929893570509280617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-61129509876077488572012-06-08T17:05:02.888-07:002012-06-08T17:05:02.888-07:00Compared to other primates, humans have an overact...Compared to other primates, humans have an overactive Myostatin gene.<br /><br />Myostatin is the protein that signals muscles to stop growing.<br /><br />Our high levels of Myostatin producetion and high sensitivity to Myostatin are why a 50 kilogram chimpanzee can more or less literally rip a 100 kilo adult human in two.<br /><br />The German "superbaby" who was in the press a few years ago had two defective Myostatin genes. Many athletes especially in power sports like weight-lifting have a single defective myostatin gene or a defective myostatin-receptor gene.<br /><br />What I'm curious about in the current context is whether anyone knows when in human evolution our myostatin production deviated from the priamte norm.<br /><br />Fairly obviously at some point, tool use or greater group size and co-operation meant that it was no longer cost-effective to carry aroudn all that extra muscle.Ian Gouldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04352147295160200128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-38623880753483694952012-06-08T16:59:49.391-07:002012-06-08T16:59:49.391-07:00Hi SteveO
"The aquatic ape hypothesis has bee...Hi SteveO<br />"The aquatic ape hypothesis has been pretty conclusively dismantled"<br /><br />This sounded like the beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact<br /><br />Until you read articles - then it becomes<br />A beautiful theory injured by some ugly theories<br /><br />IMHO<br />The "all of the changes were caused by seaside living hypothesis" (which was not what Elaine Morgan said) has been refuted<br /><br />The - some of the changes were caused by seaside living hypothesis has not been refuted and still makes senseduncan cairncrossnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-27800336721375992102012-06-08T16:39:39.947-07:002012-06-08T16:39:39.947-07:00Our vision* is superior to most animals as well.
...Our vision* is superior to most animals as well.<br /><br />*(in more ways than one!;-)Tony Fiskhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14578160528746657971noreply@blogger.com