tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post3162973172963502392..comments2024-03-28T20:50:49.311-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Science! From TWODA to "P.U." to RNADavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84255043966441171092014-04-09T17:36:05.166-07:002014-04-09T17:36:05.166-07:00locum,
I've been reading Dr Brin for years, a...locum,<br /><br />I've been reading Dr Brin for years, and it never occured to me that "TWOBDA" referred to anything <b>but</b> causality.<br /><br />The sense Dr Brin uses it is typically to argue against the right-wingers who <b>do</b> insist on a moral imperative to do as we've always done ("Drill baby, drill!") as long as the bad effects of their favored paradigm haven't been proven and agreed upon 100%. TWOTDA then refers to things that make sense whether or not there is climate change, such as energy conservation and not poisining our nest.<br /><br />Ironically, it's the ones Dr Brin is arguing <b>against</b> who are doing the very things you accuse him of doing.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-20073350284272550842014-04-09T16:08:59.815-07:002014-04-09T16:08:59.815-07:00As we seem to have 'moved on', I'll si...As we seem to have 'moved on', I'll simply point out that Andy's examples of non-circularity amount to 'circular argument'.<br /><br />The sentence 'You ought to eat healthy and in proper portions (if) you don't want to become obese' is logical only if we assume that 'ought' implies causality rather than duty, obligation, desirability or a lack-of-alternative and that the terms 'healthy', 'proper' and non-obese are synonyms (wherein health and obesity are mutual opposites) which would then reduce his argument to a rather untrustworthy 'health is caused by a diet that causes health'.<br /><br />Science is about assigning probabilities to possibilities rather than subjecting possibilities to arbitrary moral limits which, btw, is the singular reason why I object to the use of TWODA's 'ought' to impose 'duty', 'obligation', 'desirability' or a 'lack-of-alternative' on a purely amoral scientific question. <br /><br />Replace 'ought' with 'could' and my object disappears.<br /><br /><br />Best locumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-53282510219541143902014-04-09T12:27:45.950-07:002014-04-09T12:27:45.950-07:00onward
onward<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-76075340009325532162014-04-09T12:11:31.191-07:002014-04-09T12:11:31.191-07:00Complete nonsense and fabulation. I'll comment...Complete nonsense and fabulation. I'll comment no further.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-69028073588990006262014-04-09T11:01:20.430-07:002014-04-09T11:01:20.430-07:00Locum,
TWODA = things we oughta do anyways.
The ...Locum,<br /><br />TWODA = things we oughta do anyways.<br /><br />The key here is "ought". You can't have an "ought" without an "if".<br /><br />You ought to eat healthy and in proper portions... IF you don't want to become obese.<br /><br />Offshore windmills are TWODA.... IF we care about generating renewable energy while mitigating the damage from hurricanes. Do you care about those things?<br /><br />Some of us care about "ifs" like improving the quality of life for as many people as possible. It's in this sense that we discuss TWODAs. Not as some unquestionable obedience to a divine rule commanded by His Brin-ness on High, but as actions that would further humanistic goals. Goals such as seeing human suffering reduced, and human flourishing and happiness increased.<br /><br />If you don't care about the ifs, then obviously the oughts don't matter. But your charge of circularity is laughable. Nothing circular about it as long as you realize the implicit "if".Andynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24708120734593053022014-04-09T10:27:54.658-07:002014-04-09T10:27:54.658-07:00I do have an 'agenda', first, to 'inci...I do have an 'agenda', first, to 'incite", excite & inspire; second, to engage, question & inquire; and, third, to converse, propose & transpose.<br /><br />I despise the 'moral imperative', the socially-derived directive, the 'ought to' & 'should' ism, and the 'do what I said because I said it’ for its thoughtless circularity of argument which leads (inevitably) to its own beginning, preempts discussion and kills creativity.<br /><br />With implicit circularity, the acronym TWODA represents an established precognitive assumption that instructs us to do all the things we ought to, leading us to conclude that the things we are doing are the things we must do. We must apply ourselves in order to apply ourselves; we should work harder so we can work harder; we ought to 'grow' the economy so the economy can grow; and we must consume what we produce so we can produce what we consume. Pssst! We take it for granted that we must 'endeavor to persevere’ in our actions or, catastrophe of catastrophes, our actions will end.<br /><br />Q: But, why not rethink our initial assumptions and change things up ? <br /><br />A: Because of TWODA. <br /><br />The 'scientific imperative' (to answer Andy T) requires us to develop what is commonly referred to as 'objectivity', to challenge our preconceptions about 'what we must do’ & ‘the way the world works’, to conceptually dissociate ourselves from the ignorance that is 'common knowledge', to dissociate, experiment, observe & reassociate in order to recognize new patterns, to apply & repeat this 'scientific method’, and to persist in this willful 'scientific’ dissociation from which all the great advances of Science spring.<br /><br />TWODA, being a form of moral obedience, works just fine for making minor 'improvements' (aka 'progress') in hundred year old technologies like the telegraph, the telephone, the aeroplane, the 'airship' (!!), the internal combustion engine, the radio, the nuclear reactor & the buggy whip (etc) but TWODA-based refinements cannot help us recognize any 'new' patterns of technology. <br /><br />TWODA and the TOADY: They are the same intellectual concept in extension. <br /><br /><br />Best.locumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-62567886872056801292014-04-09T04:45:18.093-07:002014-04-09T04:45:18.093-07:00 Still think a towed lighter-than-air is more of a... Still think a towed lighter-than-air is more of a novelty, a more expensive way to do passenger rail. Several steps further out, how about an airship powered with a microwave beam from a SBSP installation using steerable antennas to follow mobile power recipients.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81531221678089387342014-04-09T00:25:56.792-07:002014-04-09T00:25:56.792-07:00IMNSHO, TWODA offers a way to effect needed change...IMNSHO, TWODA offers a way to effect needed change with minimal negative impact on society and an opportunity to sidestep controversy, difficult to upset folks with lower energy bills and more comfortable houses. Not to mention coal left undisturbed under green appalachian hills.<br /> A more dramatic opportunity for change would be upgrading coal burning power plants in Asia so they're no worse than those in the United States.Tim H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-59712235895189618502014-04-09T00:04:06.180-07:002014-04-09T00:04:06.180-07:00In EXISTENCE I had Towed Airships, pulled by railr...In EXISTENCE I had Towed Airships, pulled by railroad locomotives, thus needing to carry no engines or fuel. Don't recall seeing that anywhere.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18659363281349916522014-04-08T23:34:17.860-07:002014-04-08T23:34:17.860-07:00I'm surprised there aren't more amphibious...I'm surprised there aren't more amphibious airships. It seems like an obvious pairing (and there's plenty of concept art to suggest it is obvious to others), the ship is by definition buoyant, there's plenty of space for landing. You have water available upon touchdown (or just before, if you drop a feeder hose) to syphon up as ballast; which you can dump when you want to lift. Yet there's few examples of actual amphibious airships.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-92100408412232764752014-04-08T23:00:42.086-07:002014-04-08T23:00:42.086-07:00More pedantically, seaplanes includes flying boats...More pedantically, seaplanes includes flying boats as a subset. The other term you are looking for is "floatplane". A la <a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/DeHavilland_Single_Otter_Harbour_Air.jpg" rel="nofollow">DeHavilland Otter</a><br /><br />Any seaplane (whether "flying boat" or "floatplane") which can also land on a runway, is called amphibious.<br /><br />Weirdly, while helicopters have both types of amphibians, floats and boats, they don't seem to have separate terms to describe them.Paul451https://www.blogger.com/profile/12119086761190994938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-74870807304759286252014-04-08T22:50:59.155-07:002014-04-08T22:50:59.155-07:00I am sorry, all, that I let inciters bait me into ...I am sorry, all, that I let inciters bait me into reacting with less than dignity. Specifically, although I find locum occasionally very bright and interesting, he clearly has an agenda here and reacting only feeds him. Not trolling, exactly. But I think I'm better off going cold turkey.<br /><br />Please, all, kick me if I ever again respond with anything more intense than "that was interesting" or "that was mistaken or possibly deliberately misleading."<br /><br />Happy (Mars) opposition day.<br />David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-41413817507183467652014-04-08T16:52:52.112-07:002014-04-08T16:52:52.112-07:00P.U.? Use a bucket. Dilute the stuff 10/1 and use ...P.U.? Use a bucket. Dilute the stuff 10/1 and use directly on garden. Unless you have a UTI or are taking some serious meds, it should be clean and sanitary. Patricia Mathewsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-44550909888973574492014-04-08T16:23:51.113-07:002014-04-08T16:23:51.113-07:00locumranch,
You seem to have adopted the attitute...locumranch,<br /><br />You seem to have adopted the attitute of the young Woody Allen character from "Annie Hall"--the kid who won't do his homework because the universe is expanding (so "What's the point?").<br /><br />Paul Krugman also recognizes that in the long run, we're all dead. But he (correctly) points out that that fact doesn't mitigate the need for shorter-range solutions to problems that affect us right now.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-92209578453167290592014-04-08T14:17:28.557-07:002014-04-08T14:17:28.557-07:00"we can no more stop the climate from changin..."we can no more stop the climate from changing than we can stop the setting of the sun."<br /><br />Locum, just because we can't completely freeze the climate in place doesn't mean we can't tweak it in a better direction... your objection makes no sense to me. We started destroying the ozone, realized the problem, took corrective measures and now the ozone is recovering. We can now take corrective measures to mitigate the severity of the global warming we are causing.<br /><br />As humans one of our adaption strategies is to mold our environment to fit out needs (houses, roads, dams, air conditioning). So trying to slow climate change is actually a prime example of adaptation. LIMITING our adaptation strategies is a most UNreasonable course of action.<br /><br />And what in the world do you mean by "scientific imperative"?Andy Tnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-83065349740734641012014-04-08T12:23:27.337-07:002014-04-08T12:23:27.337-07:00A number of us have looked at the airships for mis...A number of us have looked at the airships for missions like this. For a commercial company, it is a difficult business case because they have to be multi-purposed if you want to get investors. Also, the ground equipment (hangar and land) tend to be a tad expensive relative to the prices one can charge in any one year, so the sunk costs are significant.<br /><br />There is no doubt the airships can do this job and many others like it (chase hurricanes and thunderstorms for example), but they need to be able to stay aloft for months at a time if you want to minimize ops costs enough to close the case.Alfred Differnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-73819274809537525632014-04-08T11:16:19.202-07:002014-04-08T11:16:19.202-07:00Locum has skipped right ahead to senility. His re...Locum has skipped right ahead to senility. His reflexive "I'll say the opposite!" spasm proclaims he is "Mr. Adaptation" when in fact, that's my territory and in any given week I do more to promote an agile, resilient and robustly adaptable civilization than he will accomplish in his entire, cynical-snarking life.<br /><br />TWODA is neither a moral nor a scientific imperative. Only a dope would think it was either. It is a polemical maneuver to corner New Confederates into perceiving that they are shills for a carbon oligarchy, whose own polemicists have insulated their foot soldiers from realization. <br /><br />The fact that locum cannot parse this is kind of sad. David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-36698602947440483562014-04-08T04:10:56.185-07:002014-04-08T04:10:56.185-07:00RE: "How much quicker would we have found the...RE: "How much quicker would we have found the fading pings from MH 370's black boxes, if sea planes or flying boats were still prominent in the world?"<br /><br />Along with those... how about dirigibles! They'd take a while to get there but give a bird's eye view and can stay on station or cruise slowly for extended periods.<br /><br />Lighter-than-air ships need a fresh look. Tom Crowlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04444476865484424912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-16115426171701534212014-04-08T00:54:21.467-07:002014-04-08T00:54:21.467-07:00'TWODA' represents a moral rather than a s...'TWODA' represents a moral rather than a scientific imperative. It directs us to take a number of increasingly irrational actions in order to keep things 'the way they are' (let's build windmills to stop hurricanes!) even though keeping things 'the way they are' is an increasingly unreasonable course of action.<br /><br />Human beings did not 'create' or 'invent' climate change. We have accelerated it (most likely) with our fossil-fueled technologies, but the climate has been changing for thousands of years as shown by Heracleion & any number of submerged (and/or desolate) archaeological sites, and it will continue to change with or without our assistance, and we can no more stop the climate from changing than we can stop the setting of the sun.<br /><br />Our most reasonable course of action ... always the most reasonable course for any life form ... is 'adaption'. We forget this at our peril. Either we stay here and 'adapt', modifying our form by the slow road of evolution (as we did before, during & following the last Ice Age) or we 'dearly depart' like a space-born dandelion seed or the proverbial dodo. Either way, our 'environment' cares not a wit about our ultimate fate.<br /><br />Rather than saving the world 'from' dopes,'TWODA' serves only as an attempt to save the world 'for' dopes who imagine that they can keep things 'the way they are' or, perhaps, for 'dupes' who have been told that such a feat of mortal stasis is either possible or desirable. We have gone down this very road before, often, in our attempts at 'conservation', trying to consume our cake & keep it too, and it is futile.<br /><br />Only change and death are certain.<br /><br /><br />Best.<br />_____<br /><br />MH370 is probably parked at a small airport in China, Indonesia, etc ... being repainted, repurposed or stripped for parts, a $320 million dollar bargain at the cost of +200 lives .... worse things have been done for less. Remember that China denied this very scenario early, that 70% of passengers were Chinese nationals.locumranchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-68189011368881953272014-04-07T20:49:15.135-07:002014-04-07T20:49:15.135-07:00When you are at that big Smithsonian shindig, plug...When you are at that big Smithsonian shindig, plug the SF museum!<br /><br />RE the phosphor urinal, I just read an an article in MAKE on making a composting toilet. Most of the text was on how to handle "poo." Their suggestion for handling urine: Pour the pee on a straw bale! This would eventually be used for fertilizer. A very low-tech, non-scaleable P.U.<br /><br />I'd love to see sustainability inventions, traditionally aimed at the back to the nature crowd, adapted for cities. Sewers are an amazing invention, but we're going to have to come up with a parallel system of collecting and processing waste.Stefan Joneshttp://www.flickr.com/photos/stefan_e_jones/noreply@blogger.com