tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post114668874610301533..comments2024-03-28T08:34:43.846-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: On Income DisparityDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1148044845070661842006-05-19T06:20:00.000-07:002006-05-19T06:20:00.000-07:00P.T. Galt,This "invention machine" uses evolutiona...P.T. Galt,<BR/><I>This "invention machine" uses evolutionary algorithms to generate patentable inventions by mimicking the process of biological evolution in software.<BR/></I><BR/>... Great we will all get work either writing patent software, checking patents or mining for them.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1147086843240692332006-05-08T04:14:00.000-07:002006-05-08T04:14:00.000-07:00Oh, and while we're talking about fantasies... Wh...Oh, and while we're talking about fantasies... What about Republican and Democrat fantasies?<BR/><BR/><B>Republican Fantasy:</B> The United States establishes Full Spectrum Dominance over 6 billion people, and everything from the Earth's deepest deposit of oil to geosynchronous orbit, for now. They'll work on the Galaxy later. All while spending more money than they have as if arithmetic could be repealed.<BR/><BR/><B>Democrat Fantasy:</B> Do pretty much the same thing as the Republicans, but do it <B>better</B>. Send <B>more</B> troops to Iraq and Iran than the Republicans want to, and send them to Darfur too, while also out-doing the Republicans on domestic spending.<BR/><BR/>Throw in common dreams like using depleted uranium and 5,000-pound "smart" bombs to turn martyrdom-worshipping fundamentalist theocrats into modernist secular liberals who love Israel and can't wait for their country to join the European Union.<BR/><BR/>At least my "fantasy" ("libertarian" or otherwise) is derived from the implications of technological artifacts that actually exist, in various stages of development. :)Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1147085777641027212006-05-08T03:56:00.000-07:002006-05-08T03:56:00.000-07:00I'm getting a little tired of "libertarian fantasy...I'm getting a little tired of "libertarian fantasy" being chanted over and over again like a mantra. I have not said that a "Sun economy" society would be a Pure Libertarian (tm) system in which no one ever "needs a society," no one ever gets sick, or emotional, no one is ever born as a helpless infant and so on. If all those straw men could be converted into biodiesel... :)<BR/><BR/>I will readily admit that the "Sun economy" concept is relatively undeveloped, at least by me. It rests on three main pillars:<BR/><BR/>1) Replacement of fossil fuels with renewable energy.<BR/><BR/>2) "Cradle-to-cradle" manufacturing/recycling loops and a general rejection of the current "throw-away" paradigm. There is no "away" on Earth.<BR/><BR/>3) Access to 3D printing and other "rapid-prototyping" technologies becoming cheaper and more widely available.<BR/><BR/>With these three pillars in place, a material economy would more or less mimic the "natural economy" of an ecosystem: nothing (or very little) is wasted, and it's all powered by "free" energy from the Sun.<BR/><BR/>Add a currency backed by energy (as our currency used to be backed by gold), and you in effect have free money raining down from the sky every day. Over-optimistic? Maybe. We could shoot for it anyway, even if we miss we'll probably hit something better than what we have now.Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1147084584423698462006-05-08T03:36:00.000-07:002006-05-08T03:36:00.000-07:00Reason wrote:"... modest things like coffee mugs a...Reason wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>"... modest things like coffee mugs and <B>cellphones</B>... "<BR/><BR/>It just saw that comment - cellphones modest(?) (with all the electronics inside?) - you have got to be kidding! In 13 short years? I.M.H.O. Long before that happens we will be growing spare human parts in culture (just not in southern USA of course).</I><BR/><BR/>By "modest" I was referring to modest in <B>size</B>, i.e. contrasting smaller things like coffeemakers that could be churned out in a "home version," and larger objects like washing machines, that would be more likely to be created at a "3D print shop." Sorry I wasn't more clear about that.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2005/11/30/big_idea_tech_biggest/index.html" REL="nofollow">This article</A> delves more deeply into the specifics of how 3D printers could be used to print complex objects and electronic circuitry.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the speed-of-advancement I've proposed, I think it is fairly realistic because the physical technology (e.g. the print heads) is, as I understand it, fairly similar. <BR/><BR/>Factor in something like <A HREF="http://technovelgy.com/ct/Science-Fiction-News.asp?NewsNum=595" REL="nofollow">John Koza's "invention machine"</A>, and I think it is reasonable to expect more rapid rates of technological advancement than we're used to. This "invention machine" uses evolutionary algorithms to generate patentable inventions by mimicking the process of biological evolution in software.<BR/><BR/>Over the next 13 years, computing power will most likely continue to grow dramatically, and Koza's program (and competing programs) will continue to be improved to match. This software takes much of the trial-and-error "grunt work" out of inventing.<BR/><BR/>These kinds of things can be self-reinforcing. Combine a "home/small-business version" of evolutionary algorithm software (perhaps in the price range of current 3D modeling programs like Maya) with a "home/small-business version" of a 3D printer with a population of intelligent tinkerer/"hacker" types, and it seems to me you could have a Rennaisance on your hands.<BR/><BR/>Regarding "too good to be true..." There's more computing power in my XBox than NASA had at its disposal when launching men to the Moon. To good to be true? Sure. But true anyway. Compared to the broad stretch of history, our entire civilization is "too good to be true."Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146841159991347962006-05-05T07:59:00.000-07:002006-05-05T07:59:00.000-07:00I've seen 3-D printers in action, and I think they...I've seen 3-D printers in action, and I think they're quite very impressive, actually. For making things, such as wax patterns for investment casting processes, or the molds for the processes themselves. <BR/><BR/>But to make a cell phone you're going to need a "print cartridge" which lays down traces of precious metals, or nearly-pure elements or compounds of various types. I don't see that happening in the near future, or being very inexpensive in just 13 years. For one, someone with that technology will milk its patent for all it's worth, somewhat like Toyota is doing with its hybrid powerplant technology for cars, now.Rob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13115249244056328076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146835629419741232006-05-05T06:27:00.000-07:002006-05-05T06:27:00.000-07:00P.T. Galt --"... modest things like coffee mugs an...P.T. Galt --<BR/><BR/>"... modest things like coffee mugs and <B>cellphones</B>... "<BR/><BR/>It just saw that comment - cellphones modest(?) (with all the electronics inside?) - you have got to be kidding! In 13 short years? I.M.H.O. Long before that happens we will be growing spare human parts in culture (just not in southern USA of course).reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146835325131235192006-05-05T06:22:00.000-07:002006-05-05T06:22:00.000-07:00That should read of course -"... seems too good to...That should read of course -<BR/>"... seems <B>too</B> good to be true ..."reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146835124908202272006-05-05T06:18:00.000-07:002006-05-05T06:18:00.000-07:00Hi P.T. Galt, I actually did not mean to imply th...Hi P.T. Galt,<BR/> I actually did not mean to imply that most people are not competent, rational and healthy most (or at least a substantial part) of the time, just that systems of support are needed for those that are not (or not at the moment). Many simple systems fall down in that they expect too much of individuals for everybody to cope. I've had experience with mental illness (not me personally) - believe me it is very difficult to know how to deal with it.<BR/><BR/>I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable about what you are proposing, in order to judge it by those criterion. Hence - "please expand".<BR/><BR/>The correct response to your post about human delusions is that yes we are all deluded - but not so much that it matters. It also helps if we keep each other in check, but somehow manage that without being repressive. There are no simple solutions.<BR/><BR/>My motto should be - "anything that seems to good to be true, probably is"!reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146826747301330692006-05-05T03:59:00.000-07:002006-05-05T03:59:00.000-07:00Just to do a little "devil's advocacy" in relation...Just to do a little "devil's advocacy" in relation to my last post... One could make the following argument for general human incompetence:<BR/><BR/>Whatever world-view or belief system one has, <B>the majority of humanity is wrong</B><BR/><BR/>If you're a Christian...well, most people aren't Christians. It gets worse if there's only one "right" <B>type</B> of Christian, e.g. Catholic, Southern Baptist, Episcopalian, etc.<BR/><BR/>If you're a Hindu...most people in the world aren't Hindus. The same thing applies to Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, etc.<BR/><BR/>And if you're an atheist, then the vast majority of the human species consists of deluded idiots.<BR/><BR/>Whatever your mental model of reality is, most of your fellow humans don't share it. And yours is the correct one. Of course. Therefore, <B>the majority of human beings are incapable or unwilling to perceive reality correctly</B>!<BR/><BR/>Therefore, People Are Stupid. Doesn't it feel good to be one of the right-thinking few? :D<BR/><BR/>NOTE: This is not a response to anyone else's post. IOW, "you" does not refer to any particular poster, but to all readers, and no offense toward anyone is intended.Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146825709704275132006-05-05T03:41:00.000-07:002006-05-05T03:41:00.000-07:00If people are not "competent, healthy, rational be...If people are <B>not</B> "competent, healthy, rational beings" for the most part, then we're doomed, period. If we incompetent, unhealthy, irrational beings don't bumble into Apocalypse with nukes, we'll do it with biotechnology, or nanotechnology, or artificial intelligence and robotics. Or a Big Brother State empowered by ubiquitous surveillance cameras and RFID tags. Or by blundering into an eco-catastrophe. Etc.<BR/><BR/>The current crop of Straussian Philosopher Kings seems far more inclined to lead us to destruction than to an orderly Platonic Republic where the drooling sheeple are properly guided by their betters. <BR/><BR/>It's a lot less depressing to go with the theory that most of us are, basically, "competent, healthy, rational beings." Most of the time. I think David Brin has given a pretty good <A HREF="http://www.futurist.com/portal/future_trends/david_brin_empowerment.htm" REL="nofollow">rebuttal</A> to the People Are Stupid and Incompetent meme. If he's wrong, I guess the answer is: Gold, Guns, Canned Food, Bunker.Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146824539025677752006-05-05T03:22:00.000-07:002006-05-05T03:22:00.000-07:00Reason wrote:But surely the bigger issue is that t...Reason wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>But surely the bigger issue is that the fantasy economy seems to be based on the libertarian fantasy of a population consisting only of competent, healthy rational beings who are free from external catastrophes. I doubt it would be resilient enough. Expand it a bit.</I><BR/><BR/>3D printing, Cradle-to-Cradle loops, and locally-produced renewable energy would provide a much more resiliant and sustainable economy than we now have.<BR/><BR/>The present system relies on "grids" for energy and transportation existing on contenental and global scales. An external catastrophe that threatens those grids can wreak incredible havoc on a modern society. Ask the Iraqis.<BR/><BR/>In a Sun Economy (or any economy based on the technologies I've described) energy and many/most manufactured goods could be produced locally, offering a society like America or Europe greater redundancy in the face of catastrophe. Food might be a greater challenge to produce locally, especially in urban areas. However, as less transport is needed for everything else, remaining transport capacity can be used for those things that cannot be produced locally.<BR/><BR/>>desperately trying to avoid a Long Rant that will earn me the Wrath of Brin... < :)Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146823329721560962006-05-05T03:02:00.000-07:002006-05-05T03:02:00.000-07:00Reason wrote:Your time scale is based I would thin...Reason wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Your time scale is based I would think on extremely optimistic projections, not to mention the small issue of managing the transition.</I><BR/><BR/>Of course you're right that it would be overly optimistic to expect a major nation like the U.S. or the world to have adopted the Sun Economy in 13 years. My point in that post was that it would be technically <B>possible</B> to begin creating a Sun Economy in the near future, in contrast to the time of someone's great-great grandchildren.<BR/><BR/>I do think the main enabling technologies will be relatively mature within that time-frame. 3D printers work on principles similar to inkjet printers, "printing" an object layer by layer from a computer-generated model. If they follow a developent curve similar to that of inkjet and laser printers, "home versions" capable of producing modest objects like coffee mugs and cell phones should be readily available and cheap.<BR/><BR/>Larger versions capable of "printing" bigger objects could be available at franchises like Kinko's. <BR/><BR/>I think things like Peak Oil and the challenge of dealing with climate change will encourage the development of 3D printing, alternative energy, and "<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865475873/sr=8-1/qid=1146821352/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-8375162-4480827?%5Fencoding=UTF8" REL="nofollow">Cradle to cradle</A>" reuse/recycling loops for products.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that widespread use of mature 3D printing technology and permanently-rising prices for oil and gasoline would pretty much mean the end of those "Good Manufacturing Jobs" current economies rely on.<BR/><BR/>IOW, the present industrial-age economic paradigm on which classical Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, and Corporate-State facsim are based is becoming both ecologically unsustainable and technologically obsolete.<BR/><BR/>I think that within 13 to 20 years the technological basis for a "Sun Economy" will exist, and that at least a small-scale "model" Sun Economy could be practiced on the level of an "intentional community" or small country (such as an island-nation, or perhaps someplace like Lietchenstein or Switzerland), from whence it could hopefully spread.<BR/><BR/>There's nothing close to a guarantee of such a bright future, of course. The world's politicians could decide to start thumping their chests and throwing nuclear, biological, and chemical feces at each other in the quest for "Full Spectrum Dominance" of dwindling petroleum resources as they struggled to hold onto the "System" the presently rule.Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146816488745853512006-05-05T01:08:00.000-07:002006-05-05T01:08:00.000-07:00P.T.GaltYour time scale is based I would think on ...P.T.Galt<BR/><BR/>Your time scale is based I would think on extremely optimistic projections, not to mention the small issue of managing the transition. <BR/><BR/>But surely the bigger issue is that the fantasy economy seems to be based on the libertarian fantasy of a population consisting only of competent, healthy rational beings who are free from external catastrophes. I doubt it would be resilient enough. Expand it a bit.reasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06594313655855683716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146810828678691472006-05-04T23:33:00.000-07:002006-05-04T23:33:00.000-07:00D'OH! That should be "13 years." Which, is why I'm...D'OH! That should be "13 years." Which, is why I'm not enough of an economist to write the "Wealth of Nations" or "Das Kapital" of the Sun Economy. :) <BR/><BR/>I could still have a go at writing the sf novel. Or, given the time-frame, perhaps a Tom Clancy-type "technothriller" rather than something with a spaceship on the cover. All I need are characters and a plot. >grin< <BR/><BR/>Unless David has already beaten me to it with Glory Season (haven't read that one yet...).Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146810351361046462006-05-04T23:25:00.000-07:002006-05-04T23:25:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146804859139770632006-05-04T21:54:00.000-07:002006-05-04T21:54:00.000-07:00Don Quijote wrote:Cool, Science Fiction! Which of ...Don Quijote wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>Cool, Science Fiction! Which of my great-great-grandchildren will get to live in this Utopia of yours?</I><BR/><BR/>3D printers <A HREF="http://dir.salon.com/story/mwt/feature/2005/11/30/big_idea_tech_biggest/index.html" REL="nofollow">exist</A> now. You can <A HREF="http://www.zcorp.com/products/printersdetail.asp?ID=1" REL="nofollow">buy one</A> for $19,900. Which is not much more than what you would have paid for a ColorScript Laser 1000 color printer in <A HREF="http://xenia.media.mit.edu/~yarin/laser/laser_printing.html" REL="nofollow">1993</A>. Today, you can buy a color printer/scanner/copier <A HREF="http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4875406" REL="nofollow">at Wal-Mart</A> for just under $50.<BR/><BR/>12 years. If you want to produce great-great grandchildren in that amount of time, you'd better have grandkids already, or be a hamster.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.energyinnovations.com/" REL="nofollow">Technologies</A> for producing renewable energy already exist, and will become competitive with fossil fuels within that same time-period. Another <A HREF="http://www.magenn.com" REL="nofollow">example</A>. Someone going by the name of Don Quijote is probably already familiar with windmills...Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146797070930755262006-05-04T19:44:00.000-07:002006-05-04T19:44:00.000-07:00DQ, yes! That was concise, punchy and effective! ...DQ, yes! That was concise, punchy and effective! Remember, Lincoln in a 3 minute speech was more effective than Castro at 3 hours.<BR/><BR/>And yes, the inheritance tax is an area where my politics veers down pathways that might make me seem one of your "fellow travelers!" Any truly wise capitalist or believer in markets ought to favor the IT. For mutliple reasons (some other time), I consider it to be the best and most important tax.<BR/><BR/>SOmething weird? If the law isn't changed, the IT declines to ZERO in 2010... then RETURNS in full force in 2011. Which makes 2010 the year that all the elderly rich HIDE from their own kids!<BR/><BR/>PTG... your system is imaginative and fascinating... and belongs in a good sci fi novel! That's where the best social experimentation happens... like in Glory Season! ;-)David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146796871970133012006-05-04T19:41:00.000-07:002006-05-04T19:41:00.000-07:00If so, a new economic theory is in order. Not more...<I>If so, a new economic theory is in order. Not more Communism (that failed) or Euro-socialism (that seems to be failing too, though I could be wrong).</I><BR/><BR/>I think you might want to rethink your definition of failure.<BR/><BR/>Germany, a country the size of Montana with a population of over 80 million and a GDP per capita of 30K, France a country the size of Texas with a population of 60 million and a GDP per Capita of 30K, both of which have better <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient" REL="nofollow">GINI</A> than the US. <BR/><BR/><I>My suggestion would be something along the lines of the "Sun economy" proposed by Buckminster Fuller.</I><BR/><BR/>Cool, Science Fiction! Which of my great-great-grandchildren will get to live in this Utopia of yours?<BR/><BR/>Again, trying to be concise...Don Quijotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355584994080980478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146795359621785912006-05-04T19:15:00.000-07:002006-05-04T19:15:00.000-07:00It would be interesting to see a graph showing the...It would be interesting to see a graph showing the relative increase in CEO salaries. The doubling of lobbyist influence cited in the original post happened in the last five years. By my recollection, CEO salaries were already getting outrageous in the 1990's.<BR/><BR/>What I am curious about is, has the "class warfare of the rich" accelerated greatly since the fall of the Soviet Union? Without a rival economic system, perhaps the crapitalists (e.g. cartel/cronyist/mercantilists who have been pillaging markets throughout recorded history) felt safe to loot brazenly.<BR/><BR/>If so, a new economic theory is in order. Not more Communism (that failed) or Euro-socialism (that seems to be failing too, though I could be wrong).<BR/><BR/>My suggestion would be something along the lines of the "Sun economy" proposed by Buckminster Fuller. Basically, an economy fueled by renewable energy, employing 3D printing, <A HREF="http://www.contourcrafting.org" REL="nofollow">"Contour crafting"</A> and "cradle-to-cradle" recycling loops.<BR/><BR/>Each individual would recieve a stipend equivalent to their "Sun income" (Earth's daily intake of solar energy being treated as "money from heaven," perhaps society would have a currency backed by energy, e.g. "$1 = 10 KWH"). <BR/><BR/>Perhaps people would work in "regular jobs" while some of their money goes to fund the creation of energy-generating capacity. They would then receive "Sun income" based on their contribution to energy-harvesting capacity, which they could then use to purchase designs and raw materials for their home 3D printer "fab" or larger things (like cars or houses) that would be "printed" by a local "automat" or by Contour Crafting.<BR/><BR/>In essence, a system that could (hopefully) generate the "guaranteed income" desired by the Left without the mischief associated with governmental "redistribution of wealth."<BR/><BR/>This is, of course, an oversimplification. :)Kevin Cradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12787158621008691349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146792584966599412006-05-04T18:29:00.000-07:002006-05-04T18:29:00.000-07:00Plains Dealer - 18 rich families pay for campaign ...<A HREF="http://www.cleveland.com/politics/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/ispol/114605255662760.xml&coll=2" REL="nofollow">Plains Dealer - 18 rich families pay for campaign to kill estate taxes</A><BR/><BR/><B>Eighteen of America's wealthiest families, including the Timkens of Canton, are bankrolling efforts to permanently repeal estate taxes that would save their families a total of $71.6 billion, according to a report released Tuesday by public interest groups.</B><BR/><BR/>And the Class War continues...<BR/><BR/>Concise enough?Don Quijotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03355584994080980478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146791817334951822006-05-04T18:16:00.000-07:002006-05-04T18:16:00.000-07:00A tailgate party would be useful, if it showed an ...A tailgate party would be useful, if it showed an array of groups, receding into the background, all within some kind of earshot of each other. Still, I need tribal people or cave folk chatting somehow! A barbeque....David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146787860231292592006-05-04T17:11:00.000-07:002006-05-04T17:11:00.000-07:00Or you could use cooking or having a feast. The mo...Or you could use cooking or having a feast. The modern tail party with people talking and not doing much would probably be a alien concept. Most hunter gatherers I supect needed to be doing somthing while they were talking. Not to mention I read that with american indians they had to chew the corn before it could be fermented into beer, euuu that would take a while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146787736923642042006-05-04T17:08:00.000-07:002006-05-04T17:08:00.000-07:00Oh, that was gooooooooood American music, wasn't i...Oh, that was gooooooooood American music, wasn't it? <BR/><BR/>Heh. I really enjoyed that show. <BR/><BR/>OK, women pounding clothes at the river is probably still common in India and poorer areas of southeast Asia... perhaps a picture from there? <BR/><BR/>http://www.pemmicanpress.com/CurrentIssue/marilyn-zuckerman/women-washing.html<BR/><BR/>http://www.fotosearch.com/DVA001/001-0420/<BR/><BR/>http://travel.guardian.co.uk/gallery/image/0,8564,-10304115585,00.htmlRob Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13115249244056328076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146776132164401772006-05-04T13:55:00.000-07:002006-05-04T13:55:00.000-07:00Fascinating! Now to find one. All that comes to ...Fascinating! Now to find one. All that comes to mind is the sirens of "Oh Brother Where Art Thou..."David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-1146775348634901882006-05-04T13:42:00.000-07:002006-05-04T13:42:00.000-07:00David,About tribal "cocktail" parties:I have it on...David,<BR/><BR/>About tribal "cocktail" parties:<BR/><BR/>I have it on the authority of someone who used to do it: Women discuss community issues at the riverside while pounding clothes on rocks. The modern male is inclined to dismiss women's discussions as gossip. However, in tribal societies women sometimes rule the economy through ownership of land and other property. Kinship may be matrilineal. Women typically rule the home. Women may even hold political power. Since work (laundry) and governing society sometimes have to be combined to save time in the daily struggle for survival, and because pounding clothing on rocks does not totally occupy one's brain, you may be looking for a scene of women at the river's edge.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com