tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post1108780377678476380..comments2024-03-29T00:39:31.629-07:00Comments on CONTRARY BRIN: Odd Items From The (Possible) FutureDavid Brinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comBlogger127125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-49553534852820887982011-09-08T16:11:12.383-07:002011-09-08T16:11:12.383-07:00Presently rural areas are losing their population ...Presently rural areas are losing their population base. How about establishing sanctuaries which have trade based, barter economies in rural areas - or gutted Detroit. You would have to grow your own food, and education would be life long. You would learn skills in the coop machine shops. At my sanctuary in Montana, we are presently building and trading solar furnaces. We are also debating the merits of a possible eugenics program. A new society is only possible from the ground up - and must be free to engineer its own destiny.Blighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553162703689935667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-66746604942881395222011-09-08T16:02:05.548-07:002011-09-08T16:02:05.548-07:00At this site, I see numerous attempts to weave a s...At this site, I see numerous attempts to weave a solution out of old story lines. Yes, the oligarchs have us by the throat and Rand, their cheerleader, is an ignorant Cretan. If we want a new society, it needs to be grassroots. Someone needs to be building agriculturally based sanctuaries - ARKS - that begin making their own products and energy. Then these city states need to trade with the outside areas. Presently, corporations are buying up the farms - instead we need a new nonprofit that buys the land and begins building sanctuaries that will help fight our descent into fascism. We need to begin ranching humanity for fun and profit.Blighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08553162703689935667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-47363069300676075252011-08-26T20:40:50.080-07:002011-08-26T20:40:50.080-07:00"either she saw the relentless repetition of ..."either she saw the relentless repetition of oligarchic cheating and deliberately evaded it... in which case she was a hypocrite...<br /><br />...or she was a blithering idiot.<br />"<br /><br />Or she observed it and examined it in such detail that you can't see the forest for the trees. <br /><br />Her answer to the dynastic impulse was to encourage people to take up her brand of philosophy, so they would cease desiring power over others, and not tolerate others who demand power over them. <br /><br />You can say that will never work - but that's quite different from not addressing the issue.TwinBeamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-84231059897673756812011-08-26T12:49:40.105-07:002011-08-26T12:49:40.105-07:00"Because Somalia has pirates."
Atlas Sh..."Because Somalia has pirates."<br /><br /><i>Atlas Shrugged</i> also has pirates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-74431195421212665782011-08-24T23:15:20.262-07:002011-08-24T23:15:20.262-07:00Twinbeam... either she saw the relentless repetiti...Twinbeam... either she saw the relentless repetition of oligarchic cheating and deliberately evaded it... in which case she was a hypocrite...<br /><br />...or she was a blithering idiot.<br /><br />Frankly, it is hard to tell. Maybe it was a mix.<br /><br />----<br /><br />onward to a new posting.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-79015262641920817232011-08-24T21:44:56.673-07:002011-08-24T21:44:56.673-07:00With regard to NuTrek, I'm glad I'm not th...With regard to NuTrek, I'm glad I'm not the only one who would be horribly disappointed if the writers of NuTrek 2 didn't address the galaxy-changing ramifications of having someone effectively from the future (of an alternate timeline granted- though major similarities would still exist) available to brief the Federation regarding all the threats/ potential conflicts they might encounter. <br /><br />As much as I also had issues with the plot from the first NuTrek movie, it could potentially set up an interesting sequel. What if the antagonists from NuTrek 2 were a covert group of disgruntled Vulcans and other Federation citizens who wanted to restore the original timeline (or at least establish a timeline where Vulcan wasn't destroyed)? <br />There cause would certainly not be without merit, how many times have temporal shenanigans been pulled to save Earth? How would Kirk and crew justify interfering with these attempts? Is the loss of Vulcan/deaths of billions worth the potential benefit of having the original Spock's knowledge in the new timeline? How does one metaphysically make sense of ethical decision-making over different timelines?<br /><br />I would love to see a scene where NuKirk gets called out for being ludicrously fortunate in the new timeline, hinting that perhaps there an element of self-promotion in his motivation to preserve the NuTrek timeline.Gordon Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15259964962383025146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-9439930538260786782011-08-24T21:22:48.873-07:002011-08-24T21:22:48.873-07:00DB: "I don't call Rand a hypocrite. I cal...DB: "I don't call Rand a hypocrite. I call here cosmically stupid. She never confronts this, the great inherent internal conflict of humanity, at all."<br /><br />Well, of course you were calling her a hypocrite by claiming she saw this flaw but refused to write it into her novels lest it undermine her message. <br /><br />Now you wish to retract that in favor of claiming she was too stupid to recognize the problem of the dynastic impulse? When half of the theme of Atlas Shrugged is that parasitic oligarchs hold civilization hostage to their continued wealth and power? <br /><br />True, she saw the root problem for that and many other ills to be the altruism meme, rather than a biological imperative. But that's consistent with her conception of humans as starting out as a tabula rasa - hardly an uncommon or particularly stupid philosophical error.TwinBeamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-86961734483198852782011-08-24T19:58:04.234-07:002011-08-24T19:58:04.234-07:00You know... I bet that if Star Trek: Yet Another G...You know... I bet that if Star Trek: Yet Another Generation was around, we'd see the Romulan Empire had collapsed and various captains of cloaked Romulan warships have branched off and become pirates... ;)<br /><br />Rob H.Acacia H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07678539067303911329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-31410055352966643802011-08-24T17:16:28.503-07:002011-08-24T17:16:28.503-07:00YOu do realize that there is a MMORPG, Star Trek O...YOu do realize that there is a MMORPG, Star Trek Online? Funny thing, the players are mostly arguing for a Next Gen version of the Federation which is working cooperatively with the Klingon Empire and moving towards detente with the Romulans.<br /><br />TheMadLibrarian<br /><br />Dentiest: the most dental of all!TheMadLibrariannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-43972025505885875262011-08-24T16:05:09.327-07:002011-08-24T16:05:09.327-07:00Immersive gaming may be more important than Hollyw...Immersive gaming may be more important than Hollywood as a cultural expression of hopes and aspirations. Considering only the amount of time spent: an intense SF fan may see 1 new movie every week, totally about 100 hours of content, but play WoW or Farmville for 100 hours every month.<br />This is neither necessarily good nor necessarily bad, it just *is*. Looking past the explosions and gore, what this suggests is that we (as a whole) really enjoy challenges, and we really really enjoy forming teams to beat them. Movies have a hard time conveying comparable emotional experiences and intellectual challenges.<br />What a pity there is no <b>Uplift Online!</b>rewinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14008105385364113371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-24200163073868053362011-08-24T15:49:00.349-07:002011-08-24T15:49:00.349-07:00liked the can-do values of Babylon 5. "Optim...liked the can-do values of Babylon 5. "Optimism" doesn't mean lack of drama. It means having faith we'll be up to the challenges. Us. We. Not OrsonScottCardian-Lucasian-Randian demigods. But us. Our civilization.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-39549043517979575202011-08-24T15:19:06.198-07:002011-08-24T15:19:06.198-07:00David, of course I know that about Trek. Roddenber...David, of course I know that about Trek. Roddenberry went as far as he could, etc. But since then Hollywood has gone no further. <br /><br />I'm not sure the establishment Hollywood studios are up to the task of conveying optimism, if their modus operandi is cynical emotional manipulation.<br /><br />(Did Babylon 5 convey optimism? Was it something akin to what you look for? What comes close that was released in the last 10 years?)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541997928359883625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-90132267560574467592011-08-24T14:16:07.601-07:002011-08-24T14:16:07.601-07:00"Because Somalia has pirates."
Don'...<i>"Because Somalia has pirates."</i><br /><br />Don't you mean "rugged individuals" using their personal liberty and freedom of an oppressive state to seek opportunity and be successful?<br /><br />Sounds like a GREAT place for these people!<br /><br />:)Coreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06487646409063141004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-55508133842912414332011-08-24T14:14:21.067-07:002011-08-24T14:14:21.067-07:00"Rob... trek evolved from what was extremely ..."<i>Rob... trek evolved from what was extremely enlightened for its time, a show that HELPED to make us more enlightened and ready for better versions in The Next Generation. Sure, let's move on, but show me something that convey's optimism! The right hates the very idea of human progress and the left despises optimism that it actually can happen without chiding us to death.</i>"<br /><br />Optimism, regarding the universe with wonder, craving the expansion of one's horizons, all those wonderful things Trek was about.<br /><br /><br />I don't think for a second that the perfectly relevant underlying points of Star Trek, that have remained valid from its inception all the way to the end of the 90s, is somehow "obsolete" in 2009 and onward.<br /><br /><br />Take one of my personal favorites, Star Trek VI, for instance. The movie came out in the early 90s, in the wake of the collapse of the USSR, and that's exactly what the movie was about. The USSR was certainly bad, but at least you could wake up every morning and count on its existence not changing. It was a constant. Then, suddenly, it was gone; there was no war, it just vanished. The world suddenly had no constants, no certainty.<br /><br />The anxiety over a sudden and massively changed reality is exactly what The Undiscovered Country was about, replacing the USSR with the Klingons. It was a film about embracing the future, and all its changes, and having a faith that tomorrow would be brighter than today.<br /><br /><br />If anything, I think the thesis of that movie is probably more relevant than is was in 1991, but society has forgotten how to be optimistic. In fact, society has forgotten how to do <i>anything</i> except submerse itself in self-loathing. If I asked a random set of people my age (early 20s), I bet 8 our of 10 of them would tell you that the human race would be better off not existing, and that western society was nothing but a failed dead end.<br /><br />Trek may not fit that attitude very well, but I think that's the entire point.Coreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06487646409063141004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-81327714405516946932011-08-24T13:54:34.951-07:002011-08-24T13:54:34.951-07:00Because Somalia has pirates.Because Somalia has pirates.sociotardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11697154298087412934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-18163154818977681442011-08-24T13:26:50.453-07:002011-08-24T13:26:50.453-07:00Rather than go to all the trouble of creating a pa...Rather than go to all the trouble of creating a parasitic principality of the shores of the Peoples Republic of California, why don't they just move to Somalia? No rule of law and great cell phone service!Enterikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04758515647778280562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-29773916941592345772011-08-24T12:50:29.348-07:002011-08-24T12:50:29.348-07:00Yeah, the Holnists officially believe what Rand be...Yeah, the Holnists officially believe what Rand believed, that each generation should fight for its place.<br /><br />But Rand knew Dagny's kids would NOT wind up having to compete from scratch. So she avoids the conflict by never having them have kids.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-16424706451566163622011-08-24T12:48:27.836-07:002011-08-24T12:48:27.836-07:00TwinBeam says: "But that's absurd - it wa...TwinBeam says: "But that's absurd - it was her novel - if she had written children of Galt and Taggart into it, she would have shown them guiding those children to grow into independent minded creators. "<br /><br />Bah, that is ridiculous, sorry.<br /><br />We are talking about THE great failure mode of all of human history. The tragic way that competition (which both Rand and I admire) is ALWAYS ruined by the eruption of oligarchy... as shown by how the science (about which Rand knew nothing, proudly) of genetics and biology makes us tend to strive to create competitive advantages for our offspring.<br /><br />Moreover, every time it happened, those genes wove DEEPER into us. <br /><br />How do you reconcile this problem? THE biggest problem of human nature? By recommending that Dagny might raise her children to resist the temptation a bit? Huh? That's gonna work? Preaching?<br /><br />I don't call Rand a hypocrite. I call here cosmically stupid. She never confronts this, the great inherent internal conflict of humanity, at all. <br /><br />Ever, in any way shape or form. <br /><br />She idolizes the competitive phase........ and utterly ignores the phase that always follows... the phase of collusive cheating, consolidation and the use of wealth and power to prevent further competition.<br /><br />The relentless pattern of endless thousands of years.<br /><br />Face it. Adam Smith was vastly smarter than that really really bad writer, with her extreme over-reaction fixation on Bolsheviks and proud ignorance of science. Smith looked at real history, real human patterns, real people, and asked... "how can we ensure that competition, the greatest creative force in the universe, will thrive and endure DESPITE human cheating?"<br /><br />Never, ever, ever does Rand address that. Ever.<br /><br />===<br /><br />Rob... trek evolved from what was extremely enlightened for its time, a show that HELPED to make us more enlightened and ready for better versions in The Next Generation. Sure, let's move on, but show me something that convey's optimism! The right hates the very idea of human progress and the left despises optimism that it actually can happen without chiding us to death.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-34679600224336145662011-08-24T12:47:28.977-07:002011-08-24T12:47:28.977-07:00Dr Brin, I only recently realized how long ago you...Dr Brin, I only recently realized how long ago you were already including your ideas about oligarchists into your stories.<br /><br />Even the Holnist VILLAINS of The Postman (some of the most three-dimensional villains I've ever read) thought they were realizing the True American Dream envisioned the late eighteenth century by taking the heredity out of feudalism. <br /><br />From memory, but pretty close to verbatim, General Macklin explains to Gordon: <i>"That's the TRUE American democracy. My own sons must kill to become Holnists, or else scratch dirt to support those who can."</i>LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-2114606775778550492011-08-24T12:40:47.943-07:002011-08-24T12:40:47.943-07:00Rob:
I don't know why any of you people expec...Rob:<br /><i><br />I don't know why any of you people expected more than a CGI adventure out of NuTrek. C'mon, guys, they had to make it with popular appeal in the first place! Wiping out 40 years of Geek Canon with a wink, a smile, and phasers on full was the best thing possible for Star Trek. <br /></i><br /><br />There's an old farmer's saying that I didn't get for many years when I heard it:<br /><br />"When hog futures go up, pig futures go down."<br /><br />What's good for the buyers isn't necessarily what's good for the pig.<br /><br />It may well be that in order to launch a new Star Trek film, they had to update the franchise to the sensibilities of a wider audience than "50-something Star Trek fans." So be it. However, you should not be surprised if 50-something Star Trek fans fail to consider this development to be a positive one.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-29856256126165044462011-08-24T12:34:56.269-07:002011-08-24T12:34:56.269-07:00My own quirky thing about spiderman. In ever flic...My own quirky thing about spiderman. In ever flick, he saves New Yorkers... but there's always a moment when New Yorkers save him. Citizenship is a (minor) character in the films. I like that.<br /><br />Robert, ROTJ was a betrayal, but no to the prodigious, relentless degree of the blithering-insane prequels. In fact, ROTJ could have been redeemed if they let me rewrite maybe fifty lines of dialogue and overdub them!<br /><br />* The redemption of world-killer DV, just for saving his own son?<br /><br />* Yoda was 100% wrong (as always) about the consequences of Luke leaving, half-trained, to save his friends, as Y was wrong about lying to Luke about his father and as he would later prove wrong about every single "wise" decision in the prequels... So what does he do when confronted? He "dies." And Luke falls for it!! Luke is an okay guy and I like him. But dumb as a stone.<br /><br />* The "moral quandary" Luke faces re the emperor. "Yesssss, young Skywalker. Grab your saber and cut off my head! The galaxy and all your friends will be saved and joy abound! But YOU will become a BAD person!"<br /><br />Huh? DUh, okay. Head is off. Now go take a sauna and decide to be a good person. A driveling INSANE moral lesson! You or I could write a better one (like the kind that protagonists face in the awful SAW movies) in 5 seconds.<br /><br />* even the fun beginning sequence with Jabba is horrible in one respect. "Luke... THAT is your plan??????" You are spiritual guide and vice commander of the 2nd biggest military force in the galaxy, and you can't THREATEN Jabba?<br /><br />Sure, the Empire arrives, chases off your pals, and then all the jumping about on the land yacht is the BACKUP PLAN! But as your MAIN plan? Counting on all the guards missing?<br /><br />Well, I said he was dim.David Brinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14465315130418506525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-60327996796558304042011-08-24T12:34:47.021-07:002011-08-24T12:34:47.021-07:00Rob:
Brin did better Trek than Trek ever could wi...Rob:<br /><i><br />Brin did better Trek than Trek ever could with his Uplift books. There, I said it. It's also why the Uplift stories will never get made into a good movie, because (answering Larry Hart's rhetorical question) Hollywood really is out of ideas. <br /></i><br /><br />That wasn't MY rhetorical question above, but I WAS planning to answer it the same way you did.<br /><br />Hollywood movies these days all seem to be either sequels, re-imagining of old movies, or re-imagining of mediocre television shows. I wonder if there is even a MECHANISM for a brand new creation. Ok, perhaps "Avatar" presents yet another category--big special-effects driven battle-fest. The individual story may be original, but the audience appeal is in its utter predictibility.<br /><br />Remember several years ago when all the talk was about what a boon to the movie industry it would be when they released...the 2004 remake of "The Stepford Wives"? Seriously, that was what everyone was counting on to be a transformative event.<br /><br /><i><br />Trek = good start, but anachronistic now. Nutrek = clean slate. It could be good or bad depending on what they do. <br /></i><br /><br />I know I'm jaded, but my expectation is weighted heavily toward "bad".<br /><br />In my view, if "Star Trek" is too anachronistic to contiue, then let it stay in re-runs and fanfic, and start a NEW franchise that is up to date for the present day. Updating Trek for the 2010s seems like a bad idea the same way that creating a bold new "Dick and Jane" for modern sensibilites would be.<br /><br /><i><br />For thoughtful SF, I don't hold out a lot of hope, so the only hope that I hold is that they'll make a few fun shows. Meantime, if I want treatises on human responsibility I'll go read The Postman again.<br /></i><br /><br />And I recommend "Earth" and "Kiln People" if you get tired of the adventures of Gordon Krantz.LarryHartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-75870759127331151362011-08-24T11:28:27.203-07:002011-08-24T11:28:27.203-07:00Ayn Rand devoted less than a chapter to the role o...Ayn Rand devoted less than a chapter to the role of parenting in an Objectivist paradise. <br /><br />I don't know why any of you people expected more than a CGI adventure out of NuTrek. C'mon, guys, they had to make it with popular appeal in the first place! Wiping out 40 years of Geek Canon with a wink, a smile, and phasers on full was the best thing possible for Star Trek. <br /><br />David, I disagree. The Vulcans were sock puppets, the only thing that made them real was Nimoy's acting skill. I mean, really, *Patrick Stuart* did a better Sarek than Mark Lenard! Sending them through the laundry like that makes it possible to tell better stories than they could with T'Pol or (shudder) Tuvok and all that canon baggage. <br /><br />TOS needed a repudiation of Roddenberry; his attitudes about women were hollywood tokenism at its most appalling. *Listen* to some of the dialog discussions about women in those old eps, sometime. Brin did better Trek than Trek ever could with his Uplift books. There, I said it. It's also why the Uplift stories will never get made into a good movie, because (answering Larry Hart's rhetorical question) Hollywood really is out of ideas. <br /><br />Trek = good start, but anachronistic now. Nutrek = clean slate. It could be good or bad depending on what they do. For thoughtful SF, I don't hold out a lot of hope, so the only hope that I hold is that they'll make a few fun shows. Meantime, if I want treatises on human responsibility I'll go read <em>The Postman</em> again.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07541997928359883625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-58522961569802891232011-08-24T11:23:06.186-07:002011-08-24T11:23:06.186-07:00David -
You've stated this theory about Rand ...David - <br />You've stated this theory about Rand and children and oligarchs before, but it is not supported by her work. As others have pointed out, she did address the "children of the rich" issue in Atlas, in portraying the way rich kids Dagny and her brother grew up. <br /><br />But once again you apply the tactic of narrowing the discussion to an area where you can appear to be right:<br /><br />"Dagny was somebody's kid? Doesn't matter." ... "What matters is what happens after she triumphs. At which point her own kids become supremely dangerous and likely to be competition-destroyers..." "THAT is the reason Rand never shows kids." <br /><br />But that's absurd - it was her novel - if she had written children of Galt and Taggart into it, she would have shown them guiding those children to grow into independent minded creators. <br /><br />Or perhaps she would have shown one of the children "going bad" despite the parents best efforts, to illustrate her view that how a child turns out is ultimately a matter of their own moral choices. <br /><br />Oh but wait - that would be exactly what she did with Dagny and her brother and their rich parents! But for some reason, that doesn't count???<br /><br />Why do you so badly need to believe (or at least want us to believe) that Rand was a hypocrite, that you have to ignore such obvious evidence? <br /><br />Why not simply accept that she believed what she wrote, and criticize her beliefs?TwinBeamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8587336.post-14941196990293897102011-08-24T10:43:34.481-07:002011-08-24T10:43:34.481-07:00I just watched NuTrek for the first time yesterday...I just watched NuTrek for the first time yesterday and I have to agree that it was visually spectacular but it wasn't Star Trek -- Gene Roddenberry would be horrified to see his franchise turned into another CGI action series.<br /><br />What really made Star Trek special was its big ideas, its literacy and its characters. Almost every episode of the original series and movies had some big Shakespearean theme and some little scene of Spock playing a harp or something. TOS wasn’t afraid to ask big questions, and the main characters were adults with fully developed personalities. For lack of a better word, Star Trek had soul. This movie was all flash and no substance, full of MTV kids running around with little thought or dignity. This was Star Trek for a post-literate, text messaging generation. Leonard Nimoy seemed totally out of place in this soulless new “Crack Trek” universe. And a NuSpock-Nuhuru romance? Give me a break!<br /><br />This is the same thing that happened with Star Wars – the soul and message of the original movies was sacrificed to action, CGI animation and kiddy romance. Has Hollywood totally run out of ideas? It seems that the movie industry is run by bean counters and technicians now, not artists. They clearly have the technology to create very realistic science fiction worlds -- how about creating some brand new visions instead of recycling and butchering classic stories?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com