Sunday, November 27, 2011

Atlas Shrugged: The Hidden Context of the Book and Film

Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates. - Mark Twain

There was nothing else even remotely interesting in our queue -- so we rented ATLAS SHRUGGED.

Well, after all,  I often talk about Ayn Rand and her passionate followers, who have effectively taken over the U.S. Libertarian movement, influencing much of the rhetoric we hear from the American Right... (even though no libertarian policies have ever been actually enacted during Republican rule). I've published both scholarly papers and popular articles about Rand's fiction and philosophy.

So, I thought, why not give her acolytes one more shot at selling me on her biggest, most-central tale? An honest person does that. Whereupon, with a sigh, but opening my ears and mind, I slid the disk into the player....

== For the record ==

First a couple of honest disclaimers:  (1) It may seem that I am aiming most of my critical attention, lately, at "right-wing authors." (Recently, I dissected Frank Miller's travesty "300," showing how it tells outright historical lies in service of a deeply anti-American theme. ) But I do notice foibles of the left, as well.  For example, I promise soon to offer up that long-awaited piece about James Cameron's beautiful but misguided film, AVATAR.

(2) As one of the few sci fi authors who delivered a keynote at a political party convention - indeed it was the Libertarian Party - I may seem somewhat of a "heretic" to the Rand-followers who now dominate the LP. But no one can deny my ongoing campaign to get folks to read Adam Smith, the founding sage of both libertarianism and liberalism.

Like Smith, I believe in fair and open and vigorously creative competition - the greatest innovative force in the universe and the process that made us.  Encouraging vibrant, positive-sum rivalry - in markets, democracy, science, etc - is one reason to promote universal transparency (see The Transparent Society ), so that all participants may base their individual decisions on full knowledge. That positive aim - also preached by Friedrich Hayek - should be the goal of any sane libertarian movement... instead of fetishistically hating all government, all the time, which is like a poor workman blaming the tools. Anyway, a movement based on hopeful joy beats one anchored in rancorous scapegoating, any day.

(Adam Smith favored feeding and educating all children, for the pragmatic reason that this maximizes the number of skilled, adult competitors, a root motive of liberalism and a role for government that is wholly justifiable in libertarian terms.)

For my full, cantankerously different take on the plusses and minuses of contemporary libertarianism -- and other oversimplifying dogmas -- have a look at this essay: Models, Maps and Visions of Tomorrow.

Only now, with due diligence done, let's get back to ATLAS SHRUGGED: THE MOTION PICTURE.

== Rand's Books... and the Movie ==

Despite my low esteem of Ayn Rand's simplistic dogma, I do rate THE FOUNTAINHEAD as by far her best book. In its smaller and more personal scope, that novel offered a pretty effective (if melodramatic) portrayal of  uncompromising genius having to overcome the boneheaded doorkeepers of art and architecture -- two realms that are always beset by bullies and villainy.  In that tale, the hero's adversaries came across as multi-dimensional and even somewhat plausible, if also a bit cartoonish. Indeed, the 1950s Gary Cooper movie was pretty good, for a Rand story.

Alas, in contrast, ATLAS SHRUGGED takes on civilization as a whole -- all of its institutions and enlightenment processes, top to bottom -- calling every last one of them corrupt, devoid of hope, intelligence or honor. Moreover it proclaims that the vast majority of our fellow citizens are braying, silly sheep.

(Consider this irony; a movement propounding that all people can and should think for themselves also teaches its adherents to openly despise their neighbors as thinking beings. A party that proclaims fealty to market forces also holds that the number of deciders and allocators can and should be very small. In other words, you can have Hayek or Rand. Not both.)

But pause a moment. How does the book hold up, strictly from the perspective of writing and art? Well... I won't mince words. ATLAS SHRUGGED royally sucks as a novel, with cardboard characters, rivers of contrived coincidence and dialogue made of macaroni. (Can you dig a 70 page SPEECH?) Of course, none of those things matter if your taste runs to an endless smorgasbord of indignant resentment. (A scientifically-verified drug high!)  In which case the speechifying is mother's milk.

Heck, the left produces plenty of polemics just as turgidly tendentious. In fact, the previous paragraph pretty much described Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale.

Am I letting politics bias my judgment of Rand's literary qualities? The intellectual maven of conservatism, William F. Buckley, a founding light of modern libertarianism and also a noted novelist, called Atlas Shrugged "One thousand pages of ideological fabulism; I had to flog myself to read it."

Given such source material -- and universal boos from both critics and the viewing public -- was I surprised to find that the movie version of Atlas Shrugged bites, at the level of basic film 101 storytelling?  For example, it is only in the last five minutes that the director deigns to clarify a core villain. As for the "heroes"... well, their famously emotionless "I don't give a crap" mien may work for campus geeks. But not in cinema, where passion propels.

(A deeply ironic and smirk-worthy "oops" appeared on the cover of the DVD version, blurbing ATLAS SHRUGGED as a saga of "courage and self-sacrifice" -- which would be the ultimate Randian sin!)

== A High Point ==

One sequence of this film does stand out.  I'm a sucker for lyrical cinematography, especially when it involves beautiful scenery, or else a love-ode to fine technology.  And there's about ten minutes in ATLAS SHRUGGED when we get both, as the male and female leads ride their new super-train along shimmering rails made of miraculous metal, speeding across gorgeous Rockies and over a gasp-worthy bridge.

The emotional payoff -- two innovators triumphing over troglodyte naysayers by delivering an awesome product -- portrayed Rand's polemical point in its best conceivable light.  I am all for that aspect of the libertarian dream. Indeed, it is the core theme that makes THE FOUNTAINHEAD sympathetic and persuasive.  So, for ten minutes, we actually liked the characters and rooted for them.  Significantly, it is the portion when nobody speaks.

Alas, though. The film then resumed a level of simplistic lapel-grabbing that many of us recall from our Rand-obsessed college friends -- underachievers who kept grumbling from their sheltered, coddled lives, utterly convinced that they'd do much better in a world of dog-eat-dog.  (Using my sf'nal powers, I have checked-out all the nearby parallel worlds where that happened; in those realms, every Randian I know was quickly turned into a slave or dog food. Sorry fellows.)

Ah well. Let's  set aside the pathetic storytelling, crappy direction and limp drama to appraise the film on its own, intended merits. On what it tried to be. A work of polemical persuasion.

== The Core Polemical Purpose ==

rand-societyATLAS SHRUGGED is, after all, an indictment of modernist, enlightenment, Smithian-liberal civilization. To Rand, this "great experiment" has all been one big mistake, doomed to expire from its own internal contradictions.

I use that Marxian expression deliberately. For, in significant dialectical ways, Ayn Rand was deeply influenced by Karl Marx -- virtually an acolyte, in fact. She kept essentially intact Marx's scenario of bourgeois decadence, guild protection, capital formation, conspiratorial competition-suppression, class-narrowing business cycles and teleologically inevitable divergence between the worker and owner castes.*

The chief difference is that Rand - a Russian emigre - stops short at the penultimate phase of Karl's projection - the moment of pinnacle capitalist consolidation - freezes it and calls it good. Tearing out and throwing away all hints of the next and final stage prophesied by Marx.

That's it, actually. Rand, in a nutshell. You might grasp the stunning parallels at once... if anyone my age or younger had ever bothered to actually read and understand both Rand and Marx. Well enough to draw obvious conclusions. Alas, our grandparents were far, far better-read than we hyper-opinionated moderns. (See what happens - in an ingenious interpretation - when Rand and Marx recombine.)

ayn-rand-societyHence, Ayn Rand shows us society making one dismal choice after another -- an endless chain of socialist or bourgeois-oligarchic or meddlesome-statist outrages against individual initiative. Endearingly, Ayn Rand despised all three of those centers of villainy equally, portraying them uniting to pass laws that punish or seize companies who "compete too well."

Indeed, if I ever witnessed our nation enacting the kind of insane bills that are reported in this film (piled one-after-another, every five minutes), heck, I'd be looking for John Galt myself!

Yes, I'm enough of a libertarian to know that foolish things do happen! Witness Europe, mired in nanny-state entitlements, eight week vacations and a "right to retire" as young as 55.  Self-defeating regulations prevent companies from firing workers, with the consequence that they seldom hire new ones. As for the movie's heroine, Ayn Rand chose a railroad heiress for good reasons. The old Interstate Commerce Commission (dissolved by the democrats in the late 1970s, but still a horror when she wrote) was the classic exemplar of a government bureaucracy "captured" by lordly oligarchs and used as a tool to squelch competition.

In other words, the endless litany of "leveling" crimes against creative enterprise that roll across the page/screen in ATLAS SHRUGGED aren't entirely without real-world analogues. Her fictional betrayals of creative enterprise are based on a genuine complaint... that Randites regularly exaggerate more than 100-fold, alas, into caricatures and absurd over-generalizations.

To see this danger expressed far better - and more succinctly - than Rand ever managed, read the terrific Kurt Vonnegut story: Harrison Bergeron. Other expressions of legitimate libertarian worry can be seen in the fiction of Ray Bradbury and Robert Heinlein. They have a point.

Okay, the core concern is a valid one and somebody in society should keep warning us! Though ideally, someone with common sense and proportion, alas.

I mean, gee whiz. Ayn Rand railed against the ICC... and it was eliminated. Canceled, rubbed out, utterly erased - along with the grotesque Civil Aeronautics Board - by the very same democratic processes that she and her followers despised. Competition among railroads was restored and it was done by a mix of pressure from a savvy public and resolution by genuinely reform-minded politicians. If Ayn Rand were writing the book today, a railroad would not have been her chosen archetype.

I wonder: did anyone making the film ever ponder this? Did any Randians notice at all?

== A Remarkable Chain of Ironies ==

I guess I sound pretty harsh. Only now, let me do one of my famous contrary swerves and openly avow something that Ayn Rand gets right. Despite gross exaggeration, she pretty much nails the basic problem!

Almost every time the book or film depict some betrayal of human competitive ingenuity, it happens like this:

A conspiracy of "old money" oligarchs gathers in conniving secrecy, exerts undue political influence and misuses government power for their own, in-group self-aggrandizement. Except for a few, pathetic union stewards, the ruination of market forces is stage managed from the top. The squelching of entrepreneurial enterprise and the corruption of trade is always executed by villainous old-guard capitalists. Moguls who don't want any rivalry from rambunctious newcomers.

Now think about that. Socialists do come under derision from Rand, but mostly as ninnie, do-gooder tools of the scrooge-oligarchs!  In fact, this is where her followers get things right.  Anyone who considers the long, lamentable epic of human history will recognize this as the ancient pattern, pervasive across 99% of cultures -- with the most prevalent sub-version being feudalism.

randianWhat Randians never explain is how getting rid of constitutional-enlightenment government will prevent this ancient curse from recurring. (Were the oligarchs stymied in ancient China, Babylon or Rome, where liberal constitutions were absent?) Indeed, enlightenment governments are the only force that ever kept the feudal sickness partially in check. Exactly as prescribed by Adam Smith.

(Name another society that ever made more libertarians, hm?)

In other words, by her very own premise, the answer isn't for creative people to "go on strike." It is to fix the tool (government) by yanking it out of the hands of conspiratorial criminals who have improperly seized it.  You do that with transparency, with light (as Hayek prescribed). Not by blaming the tool and throwing it away.

== You Are Getting Very Sleeeeepy... ==

Oh, but more ironies abound! Here you have a polemic about individualism, that portrays one accomplished CEO after another "gone missing"... dropping out of sight after each one listens to a solitary pitchman from a utopian community, who croons "Come. Follow me and joiiiin usssss."

Um, let's see. When have we heard that before? Drop everything. All your past loyalties and the companies you've built. Stop fighting for your family or country. Listen to this incantation and follow our charismatic leader to the special society he has built, just for the exclusive elect, like you.

Good lord, does she have to make the hypnotism-cult thing quite so explicit? So very much like Jim Jones and David Koresh? Did you know that Rand-followers who recite her catechisms light up exactly the same parts of the brain as other true-believers pronouncing passages from the Bible or Koran or Hindu Sutras? And these are not the corners of cortex used by scientists while performing analytical or "objective" reasoning.

But you don't need any of that to conclude we're dealing with a cult. Just follow the recruitment process used by John Galt. Who surreptitiously sabotages successful companies in order to drive their owners into his arms! Who then deliberately vandalizes and cripples the nation's ability to feed itself or engage in commerce that he doesn't control, in order to wreck any possible competition with his elite enclave. Oh, criminy.

Yes, I'll admit that Ayn Rand at least portrays technology as good. That gives her points over the dismal Tea Partiers, or Fox, or the equally dismal (though less-numerous) science haters of a ditzy-fringe far left.  Alas though, she treats technology like something magical. Lone inventors weave a spell and suddenly there's a new metal or new motor. The vast intricacy of collaboration, development, supplier networks, and infrastructure is both a topic to Rand and an excuse for incantatory over-simplification.

But it is science that truly gets short shrift. Ayn Rand's lack of any reference to scientific research that might support or falsify her assertions about human nature should send alarm bells clanging. Her ignorance of Darwin or human biology, for example, is almost identical to Marx, but much less excusable, given when she lived.

Nowhere, either in Atlas Shrugged or subsequent libertarian cant, is there acknowledgment of the immense stimulative role of U.S. government financed R&D, especially in fields of pure science that would never have attracted investments from anyone looking to a "return horizon."  Indeed, I have long yearned for a second national debt clock to be set up, this one showing what the public debt would be now, if only the taxpayer had received normal levels of royalties from rockets, satellites, communications, fiber optics, computers, pharmaceuticals, and the internet. Well? Wouldn't that be fair and businesslike? Tellingly, while many scientists have a fiercely competitive libertarian streak, almost none who are in the top ranks ever hold any truck with Ayn Rand.

The analog to Rand is not the scientist Darwin, but the rhetorician Plato. Sure, she claims to prefer Aristotle. But in both verbal process and incantatory reasoning style, she is Plato's truest heir.

==Ayn Rand on Privacy==

All right, veering briefly aside from Atlas Shrugged, let's see what Rand says about privacy, a topic I happen to know a lot about:

"Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe. Civilization is the process of setting man free from men." 

Of course, there is a level at which Rand is simply stating the obvious. That autonomy and long lives arose as our technology and civilized complexity improved. When food surpluses were meager, only a tiny aristocracy could be subsidized and unchained from the land. But a mixture of science and continental peace mixed with our ability to trade goods and services till even science fiction authors can now pretend we are producers of a primary product, worthy of being fed by farmers.

As for the quote itself: as usual, Ayn Rand mixes some core truths of the Enlightenment with mystical teleology.  The rise of the individual - never steady or even - has been a core theme of the West, ever since the Renaissance, and especially the Enlightenment. But this progression isn't fated, ordained or even natural.

Rand looks at a couple of hundred years and one quarter of the planet, and assumes the trend is unstoppable. But Huxley and Orwell - backed up by Malthus and Darwin - showed us what's "natural."  The diamond-shaped social structure that we take for granted can all-too easily slump back into the oligarch-dominated pyramid.

Only Enlightenment methods ever offered an alternative hope. Rand followers take it for granted. Indeed, they assume that we can dismantle the processes and structures that Adam Smith prescribed, that made the Enlightenment work in the first place.

They bear a burden of proof that we would not just slump back into the condition that prevailed, for thousands of years, before Smith and his colleagues came along.  In America, that slump is already well underway.

== The Posterity Problem ==

rand-anthemI saved the best for last, hoping that at least a few libertarians - those most-favored with our greatest human trait - curiosity - have hung with us to this point.

(Are any of you still present?)

Elsewhere, I've revealed the biggest and most telling red flag about Ayn Rand - one that I've not seen mentioned elsewhere. It is that none of her uber role-model characters, at any level or in any way, ever indulge in the most basic human project --

--  bearing and raising and loving and teaching children.

Out of 1000 pages, just one of them glances briefly at a mother - a baker, an enlightened and awakened proletarian who is not a member of the elite caste. She gives a short riff about preferring Randite education methods in Galt's Gulch over public schools. That is it for procreation. As for the New Lords - several dozen of them, all dynamic Rand-heroes of the future - not even one of them bothers to pass his or her genes forward in time. Nor do any of them take responsibility for, or even mention, this essential investment in time. And this from the "life-centered" philosophy.

There is a reason that Rand consistently avoided any mention of procreation among her new-lord caste -- because writing-in even one member of a next-generation would shine searing light upon the biggest flaw of her hypnotic spell, revealing that her "fresh" tale is actually the oldest one in the human saga.

Let me explain.  It is glaringly simple.

We all know this about aristocracy -- that it seldom breeds true. In the past, royal or aristocratic houses would grow fat, lazy and decadent. England's Plantagenets managed to stay virile for 400 years but most lines devolved much quicker. Oligarchs had to make inheritance-of-privilege state policy. They gave top priority to quashing open markets, science, democracy or equal justice - because any of these liberal processes might engender new competitors to rise, afresh, from below, exposing the spoiled grandkids to dangerous rivals.

Yet, even so, there was some churn! A violent form of social mobility.  Inevitably those decadent houses got toppled by new, fresh blood. By vibrant competitors who grew lean and tough in exile. Who trained and gathered their forces in the woods, then swooped in to storm the castle.  And thereupon established a new lordly line.


we-livingDeep below her superficial adherence to Marxist teleology lies this ancient cycle, far older than the enlightenment, or even writing. It is the very essence of what Ayn Rand stands for.  Her characters are the brash, virile, sturdy, innovative barbarians, born free and ready to seize destiny in their own two hands, ripping fortune out of the clutches of pathetic old-fart lords who are spent and bereft of cleverness or might. It's the oldest story, writ-new and draped with modernist garments. Even in her portrayals of sex, the closest parallel is a godlike Viking who kicks down the door and takes what he desires. Because he is the grandest thing in all directions. And because he can.

It is an ancient mythos that resonates deeply in our bones and especially within pasty-skinned, pencil-necked nerds, who picture themselves as Achilles, as John Wayne, as Ender Wiggin, as Harry Potter or some other demigod. An old, old formula that was mined by A. E. Van Vogt and L. Ron Hubbard and Orson Scott Card and so many others.

But therein lies a problem!  It's the romantic Phase One of this old cycle that Rand admires - the rise of a self-made buccaneer who seizes lordship from decadent, inbred fools.

Phase Two - what happens next - she never talks about. She averts her eyes and the reader's attention.

Why do none of Rand's characters ever have kids? Because theose kids'll inherit the olympian status wrested by Howard Roark or by Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden. Sons and daughters of demigods, they will assume privileges and power that they never earned through fair competition. They will take lordship for granted as a right of blood, and use it to squelch new competitors from rising to face them on a level playing field. Until their own decadent line has to be toppled, amid war and waste and pain.

It's what happened in 99% of human societies. Ayn Rand faces a steep burden of proof that "this time it'll be different." A burden she never picks up. Rather, she shrugs it off.

If there are offspring, then the reader might become consciously aware of this inevitable outcome. and realize: "Hey, I've seen this before. It's the same old boring-human pattern, and nothing new, after all."

== The Problem Is People... ==

ayn-rand-selfishnessOh, but maybe I am reading too much into this aversion toward kids. After all, as the recent film reminds us, Ayn Rand was pretty much an equal opportunity hater of people, in general. (As evidenced by her passionately-admiring defense of the horrific murderer William Edward Hickman.)

Just look at how brothers are portrayed in ATLAS SHRUGGED.  Always treacherous, small-minded, parasitical and craven. Clearly, Rand is no Nazi, no believer in the paramountcy of blood. Sons, daughters, brothers and sisters? Neighbors? Strangers? Spouses? Co-workers? Civilization? Bah, who needs em. Who needs anybody?

Well? I said she ignores Darwin and this is consistent! Reproductive success? Fie and feh!

Her ubermensch demigods are less like "lords" - obsessed with establishing an inherited clan of privilege - than they are pirates - superior in boldness and in mind, going wherever they like, taking what they deserve by the very essence of what they are.

And hey, doesn't everybody love a pirate?

Yoho. That's the life for me.

==================================

*Followup notes:

ayn-rand-market1) Someone pointed out a more powerful example of de-regulatory goodwill on the part of the US government, which was, till around 1990, the principal owner, developer and subsidizer of the Internet. Picture the moment when a few dozen government guys - and advisor/consultant outsiders - sat down and decided to BACK OFF... to simply give the Internet to the world, instead of clutching-close this potential source of vast power. It was one of the greatest episodes of voluntary de-regulation in the history of the world. (I was living in France, using the French "minitel" alternative to the Internet, so I know how that might have gone.)

And yes, re-coalescence of top-down control over the Internet remains constantly a danger, from malignant efforts like SOPA. But the key lesson of the Internet - plus the dissolving of the ICC & CAB and Barack Obama's recent commercialization of the US space launch system - is that freedom-oriented policies can be negotiated within the institutions of a vast and overwhelmingly successful continental democracy. (And generally, the ones most willing to negotiate are democrats.) The demonization of those institutions, first by Rand and now by Culture War, portraying them as inherently incapable of reason or pro-freedom redesign, is illogical and a churlish example of flat-out ingratitude. 

Worse, from a Randian perspective, it is refusal to pay legitimate debts.

2) Hold the presses! I just thought of another major deviance that Rand took, separating her from Marx in a quirky ironic way...beyond her belief in Nietzschian ubermenscen and her denial of Marx's final teleological phase. There's also her approach to the Labor Theory of Value (LTV). Oh, she bought into LTV, hook, line and sinker! But in ways the Master would find utterly heretical. 

Now, here I am going to give Ayn Rand some cred, because clearly, she recognized what Marx did not, that LTV is complete crap when it comes to all labor hours being equally valuable. That's baloney and one of Marx's most glaring mistakes. Only then, like many converted heretics, she plunged to the opposite extreme, while staying on the same axis! Positing that some peoples' time and labor must be deemed almost infinitely more valuable, not just in a market scarcity sense but in pure, platonic essence. It is a third major departure from Marx... 

...but let's not get carried away. Because her scenario is still entirely based on LTV! Think about it. The great crime of the dire-enemies who are called "looters" is to steal labor value from the good guys in order to maintain society's capital base - precisely the same situation described by Marx! Only in her story, the theft is not from proletariat workers but from geniuses, necessitating their own revolution to reclaim that value! Sure, she turned 180 degrees the cast of characters who are the heroes. But the underlying principle and scenario - LTV theft from the productive caste, followed by revolution against the thieves and their recovery of stolen capital - is utterly the same. That is utterly pure Karl Marx.

It is the master's tale... with an M. Night Shamalayan twist! Oh, my.

Unknown-13) Yes I gave short shrift to one aspect of Atlas Shrugged that Rand probably considered paramount, That is the book's keynote role as a philosophical and psychological polemic. She blames wrong action on wrong thinking, attributing to all of Galt's enemies an addiction to "death-loving" drives. All those who disagree with Galt (and Rand) are, in effect, dismissed as psychopaths who are fixated on achieving death. Note how this makes them inherently evil and unworthy of negotiation, by virtue of of their core platonic essence. (There's Plato again!) There's nothing human about such people.

What's fascinating is where this take us in regards Ayn Rand the Marxist. I describe how her chief departure from her mentor is where she excises what comes next. After portraying Marx's ultimate capitalist consolidation and finalization of capital formation with great fidelity, she omits entirely his final step - revolution of the skilled proletariat.  But how? Now vastly outnumbering the owners, with no middle class left to sap dissent, and with both state and church neutered, what's to stop them?

Well, replace the old church with a new one! Rand posits that the New Lords will not only be brilliant inventors and terrific managers, but also vastly enlightening priests. They will correct wrong thinking and replace it with right-thinking. With a philosophy that encourages life (even though there are no kids.) At which point the prols will not rebel, because their faith is now pure. Yes, it is a Randian faith - in themselves and in a system that challenges them to 'strive for life!' Nevertheless, it truly is awesome to see that her rejection of her mentor, Karl Marx, consists entirely of thwarting his final stage by enthralling the masses with a stunningly-persuasive incantation... or opiate... of uniform thought. A catechism of pure, unchanging and permanent Truth

Wow.

----

313 comments:

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David Friedman said...

Brin, in a long and imaginative diatribe, starts with:

"the problem is that you seem to have no grasp of the degree to which power was consolidated in Smith's day."

Let me recommend to you the recent biography of John Wilkes, a contemporary of Smith. He didn't merely mention the lords and the king. He fought a private war with the king of England and, on the whole won. It included a period when he was an outlaw in Europe, a brief spell in the tower, and his almost certain responsibility for an article strongly hinting that the king's favorite minister was the lover of the king's mother.

One result of that article was a bunch of "kings' messengers" going out with blank warrants in search of those responsible—and one of the first examples of punitive damages in English legal history, assessed against them as a result. Also, ultimately, the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the echo in the U.S. of the court decision in England that a blank warrant was illegal.

Wilkes career also included spells as Lord Mayor of London and member of Parliament.

That isn't a society where power is consolidated and nobody can say anything bad about anyone in power without getting arrested.

You have a version of 18th century Britain created out of your own imagination. That's fine for works of fiction, but it doesn't work as well when you are trying to understand the real world.

"Dig it. Smith would have been arrested if he so much as mentioned the lords or the king. He had to use "Merchants and manufacturers."

Or in other words, Smith went on and on about what you claimed he went on and on, but he did it all in secret out of fear of arrest? If you had tried actually reading Smith instead of trying to invent him for yourself, you would have figured out that his view of the society had very little in common with yours. Unlike you, he lived in it.

"Likewise, you keep glomming onto details to avoid EVER discussing the Big Picture with us."

What's the point of arguing the big picture if I can't get you to look at the real world instead of a picture created out of your own imagination? I did make a brief try at pointing out why your simplistic view of the problems of history and the world is wrong, but it was probably wasted effort.

David Friedman said...

Kate explains "the exception proves the rule" as using "prove" in the sense of "test." I used to think that was the explanation of the phrase, until I consulted a colleague who was an expert on early English legal history.

By his account, what it actually meant was "the fact that something is mentioned as being an exception to a rule is evidence of the existence of the rule."

LarryHart said...

Dr Brin posted a sick joke:

...
"Terrorists have kidnapped Congress, and they're asking for a $100 million dollar ransom. Otherwise, they are going to douse them all in gasoline and set them on fire. We are going from car to car, collecting donations."

"How much is everyone giving, on average?" the driver asks.

The man replies, "Roughly, a gallon."


Ouch. :)

Y'know, it occurs to me that the sentiment behind the joke--that everybody reviles congress, could come from either side of the political aisle. Certainly it is the liberals and democrats who would be justified in having such a low opinion of the current do-nothing, Tea Party congress dominated by Republicans.

Yet the essence of the punch line, "Dousing human beings with gasoline and setting them on fire is funny", tells me that the e-mails this joke is circulating on are most likely RIGHT-wing ones.

Well...am I correct or not?

LarryHart said...

Tooch:

Those things [in the Preamble to the Constitution] are important, but ask yourself the questions, who do you trust to determine the what those things are to be supported and at whose expense?


In a FUNCTIONING democracy...the voters make the decision at the expense of the taxpayers, both of which are We The People of the United States.

I know you're going to disagree, but let me turn the question around: Why do you (at least seem to) trust the possessors of concentrated wealth and power to make those decisions any better than We The People would?


We all like the spotted owl, but what about the guy whose land is now worthless because the government took away his property rights.


That's not how it works, or at least not the way it's supposed to work, even in the existing system.

For the government to "take away his property rights", there is supposed to be compensation.

There's also the element of clear and present danger. You cite the spotted owl as if people "like" it because it's cute and loveable. The idea of not endangering our ecosystem has to do with protecting the cycle of life on earth, including our own. Again, let me turn the question around: When the law allows corporations to maximize profit by polluting the air and water supply of large populations, what happens to THOSE people's right to life? What happens to the property rights of people who live around (for example) Love Canal whose property becomes worthless to sell and dangerous to live on?

"A man who is willing to give up a little liberty for security will have neither"

Then you're not a fan of the Republican Party, are you? Because they're the ones who campaign relentlessly on the idea that civil rights are an unsupportable luxury as long as a single terrorist is out there somewhere.

LarryHart said...

Tooch:

The deal is values. It is what you value that determines your actions in objectivism. So they valued a world with John Galt rather than the risk they took to rescue him.


I get that that is the after-the-fact rationale presented in the text. I'm asking whether that "value" is more sentimental than rational? Are you (or Rand) seriously suggesting that each and every man decided that rescuing John Galt made sense from a cost/benefit analysis?

No, I'd say they put human values such as loyalty and friendship (and in one case, love) first. AND THEY WERE RIGHT TO DO SO.

But thematically, that climax is at odds with the book as Randian manifesto. Rand can shoehorn an authorial explanation about personal values into the scene all she wants, but that's not how the scene WORKS to the reader. The scene is exciting and satisfying in exactly the way a superhero comic book is--the good guys thwart the bad guys and rescue their victim. It really is a tale of "courage and self-sacrifice".

Rand wants us to believe that Galt is such a one-off "exception which proves the rule" that he, and he alone in all history, DESERVES for others to sacrifice for his sake. To me, that's as unreasonable as the USSC deciding that the verdict in Bush V Gore is a unique exception which does not set a precedent for any other case. It's an incanation only, and an irrational one at that.

LarryHart said...

David Friedman:

Has anyone in SF expanded on that point--considered what a society would look like if parents were still free to help their children if they so wished, but didn't face the problem of what to do with their wealth when they, predictably, died?


Immortality would be a complete game changer. How could you argue that ANYONE had the right to accumulate personal property, taking it out of circulation IN PERPETUITY? How long until nothing of value remains unclaimed?

LarryHart said...

David Friedman:

I can see no evidence that libertarianism adores massive accumulated wealth—not a whole lot of praise for Soros, say, or even Buffett, in libertarian writing.


They may not explicitly adore massive accumulated wealth, but they implicitly denounce any system to counteract its inevitable effects.

What if I spent my time denouncing the police and talking about how no one should have that sort of authority over any individual. When you point out that my world would soon be overrun with armed criminals, would you accept as my retort: "I never said I was in favor of criminals."?

LarryHart said...

Paul451:

The only difference you really need is that the survivors of Galt's terrorism would react exactly as the US reacted to 9/11, only amplified a thousand fold, by turning even further to the government (and that universe's socialist bureaucracy) to protect them; and vilifying Galt & co as the ultimate enemies of humanity to be hunted down to the ends of the Earth.


Galt, of course, would never actually be captured or killed by the socialists. He'd have to be kept out there as a boogey-man the way Osama Bin Laden was after Tora Bora. The "Frank Millers" of that world would have to denounce any resistance to the socialist government by screaming "Don't you know John Galt is after you?!!"

In fact, the problem with your proposal is that it almost inevitably turns into a commentary on 9/11 instead of a commentary on Ayn Rand.

LarryHart said...


In fact, the problem with your proposal is that it almost inevitably turns into a commentary on 9/11 instead of a commentary on Ayn Rand.


Entirely off the subject of serious arguments, but my own comment reminded me...

I already mentioned the odd coincidence that Mr Thompson's big radio address (which John Galt pre-empted with his own) took place on November 22. This could not have been WRITTEN with any resonance to the Kennedy assassinaition which wouldn't happen for six more years, but it's still kind of eerie to read it now.

A little bit earlier in the book, one of the almost-matter-of-fact little vignettes showing the world falling apart ("A copper wire broke, shutting down a power plant...") was said to have happened on September 11. Really, you can look it up.

Sometimes I scare myself.

KateGladstone said...

Re: "She doesn't write about the actual children."

She writes about them in some detail: as seen through a main character's eyes.

KateGladstone said...

Thanks, David Friedman, for explaining the phrase.
The explanation you gave applies well to a rule created by humans — for example, a rule that "One may not buy beer on Sundays" implies that Sunday is the exception, and that one may buy beer on other days of the week. However, I do not see how such explanations apply to the most frequent present-day use of the phrase: which is using (or mis-using?) the phrase to describe facts whose existence does not reauire some human's permission: specifically, to imply that some observed event does not matter when the speaker of the phrase wishes it didn't matter: for instance, when the occurrence of the event throws doubt on a belief cherished by the person who would dismiss that event as an "exception."(For example, I have seen the phrase "the exception proves the rule" used to justify removing a child from a school party that was open to all students who had scored above 95% on a spelling test: the child had scored 100%, but because this was a higher score than she had previously obtained, it was ruled that her score was an "exception" proving -- rather than challenging -- the teacher's "rule" that students previously taught by a particular other teacher were incapable of learning to spell.)

LarryHart said...

David Friedman, on "exception that proves the rule":

By his account, what it actually meant was "the fact that something is mentioned as being an exception to a rule is evidence of the existence of the rule."


I've heard that explanation too, and it passes the plausibility test.

The sign by the pool in the movie "Caddyshack" which indicates that counsellers are allowed to swim between 1:00 and 1:15 "proves" that there is a rule prohibiting counsellers from generally using the pool, even if that rule is not actually posted.

KateGladstone said...

Re: "How long until nothing of lue remains unclaimed?"

I suspect that the situation described I n the last five words of that sentence is *exactly* what orthodox Randites aspire to.

LarryHart said...

Kate Gladstone on "exception that proves the rule":

However, I do not see how such explanations apply to the most frequent present-day use of the phrase: which is using (or mis-using?) the phrase to describe facts whose existence does not reauire some human's permission: specifically, to imply that some observed event does not matter when the speaker of the phrase wishes it didn't matter: for instance, when the occurrence of the event throws doubt on a belief cherished by the person who would dismiss that event as an "exception."


I think you are correct that the phrase is being misused when it is applied in the sense of "An exception to the rule proves (demonstrates conclusively) that the rule is correct."

What the colloqually-used phrase SEEMS to mean is that if the ONLY exception you can find to a rule is one that is demonstrably rare or otherwise bizarre, then the fact that you have to go to such lengths to FIND an exception PROVES that the rule is going to hold for most real-world applications.

For example, in Chicago, it doesn't snow past the month of May. That could be said to be a "rule" even though there has been one year in history in which a trace of snow (not enough to accumulate) was seen on June 2. The exception "proves" the rule, not by the exception's existence, but rather by the exception's rarity.

KateGladstone said...

Larry, you sum up very well what I meant. How does it happen that people who treat disproof as proof (and their numbers are increasing) will also treat proof as proof? Rather than rejecting contradiction, they glory in being contradictory when they wish, and in being non-contradictory when they wish that instead. (Orwell's Big Brother found it convenient to declare that "2+2=5": and punish the discernment that 2+2=4. Today, there are folks who take a further step downward: who declare that 2+2 is 4 when 4 is convenient, is 5 when 5 is convenient, and that this notion makes its embracers superior to those old-fashioned folks who cannot be flexible enough to believe either, or both simultaneously, just as they please at the moment.)

LarryHart said...

Kate Gladstone:

Orwell's Big Brother found it convenient to declare that "2+2=5": and punish the discernment that 2+2=4. Today, there are folks who take a further step downward: who declare that 2+2 is 4 when 4 is convenient, is 5 when 5 is convenient, and that this notion makes its embracers superior to those old-fashioned folks who cannot be flexible enough to believe either, or both simultaneously, just as they please at the moment.


Are you by any chance thinking of Grover Norquist's assertion (back around the invasion of Iraq) that liberals were stuck in a (his words) "reality-based world", while THEY (neocons) made their OWN reality?

KateGladstone said...

Yes, I'm thinking of Nyquist's assertions ... But I'm also thinking of the (almost exclusively left-liberal) notions of "deconstructionism" and the like. For instance, there is a professor at City University of New York (Luce Irigaray) who teaches that the laws of physics, math, and logic re male-chauvinist (she famously describes Newton's work as a "rape manual": Google her name alongside that phrase), and who teaches that the truly capable thinker isone who can reject such horrors while still conveniently enjoying their consequences: only the small-minded sexist, she thinks, would fail to understand how her declared rejection of "rape-based" logical thought still permits her to fly to luxury conferences on airplanes which are built and scheduled (as we're the conference-centers themselves) in accordance which that which she assumes to be evil and/or non-existent and/or ineffective. Quite literally, she believes (and teaches her university students to believe) that reality is real when, and only when, idealistic is entirely convenient: tis, she says, is the proper flexibility of mind to keep us all from being raped between the ears by such dogmatic monstrosities as facts.

KateGladstone said...

My "logic re" should have been "logic are"; my "we're" should have been "were" — I am still getting used to typing on an iPad.

David Brin said...

Robert, if Huntsman somehow won the GOP nom, I'd ask my astronomer friends to check if we left the Stupidity Cloud... as in Poul Anderson's BRAIN WAVE. Not that I know a lot about him. But if we had Obama-vs- Huntsman the debates, between two adults, would edify us all. I've seen that happen a few times.

Paul451 I consider one of the great sad cases to be Fidel Castro. He had a chance to actually do the experiment. The one that Tito attempted to do, but was thwarted by having to spend every day keeping Serbs and Croats and Bosnians off each others' throats. If state socialism ever had a chance to be tried in a human-sane way, it might have been done in Cuba... with sunshine and total public health and total economic equality... they could afford to eschew the whole measure-success-by-consumption thing. They could have tried for Huxley's ISLAND.

But Fidel just had to do the tyrant thing. Heck, he'd have won every election. But he could not stand the idea of being criticized and questioned by a vigorous minority-opposition. So he eliminated it, and all chance to govern better, through CITOKATE.

Bastard. I really hate the guy. That experiment could have supplied for us some interesting data points. Oh, it would still have proved state socialism to be wrongheaded! But we'd know a lot more, and Cubans would have been happier.

sociotard said...

South Korea experiments with Robot Wardens for its prisons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-15893772

LarryHart said...

Kate Gladstone:

Yes, I'm thinking of [Norquist]'s assertions ... But I'm also thinking of the (almost exclusively left-liberal) notions of "deconstructionism" and the like. For instance, there is a professor at City University of New York (Luce Irigaray) who teaches that the laws of physics, math, and logic re male-chauvinist (she famously describes Newton's work as a "rape manual"...


That's exactly why I threw Norquist out there...because I was afraid you were ascribing "2+2=5" type thinking to the left. I wanted to be clear that that sort of thing goes on on the Republican side as well.

Now let me throw Dr Brin's typical question at you: Who is in a position to do more ACTUAL damage with that way of thinking? A lefty professor who most people have never heard of unless they bother to google her? Or a millionaire lobbyist who has Senators and Congressmen making pledges to do his bidding?

Remember the purpose of "2+2=5". It's not as simple as "4 is inconvenient, so we'd rather the answer is 5 instead." Orwell's real point was that you're not supposed to think critically at ALL, but instead believe whatever the authorities tell you 2 + 2 is. Winston Smith can't avoid the torture by accepting that the answer is 5. It stops only when he acknowledges that the correct answer is "Whatever you say."

Now I know that Ayn Rand considers this to be a particularly leftist excess. She's supposed to be fundamentally opposed to such thinking. A is A. "2+2=4" is objective fact, and no one can claim otherwise. Yet the way she actually interacted with actual human beings belied all of that. If you were in her inner circle, you had better answer that 2 + 2 is what Ayn Rand wants it to be, or else you were excommunicated. One day, Nathaniel Branden was the second greatest human being in history (second to Rand herself), and the next, he was scum of the earth, worthy of ruination through slander. No different from believing that "We have always been at war with Eastasia."

David Brin said...

The way Brandon became just like Trotsky to Rand's Stalin... and then the wave of further purges ensued, until her movement lay in tatters and she was reduced to poverty... pretty much parallels the story of the USSR.

The Orwell parallel is huge because he was talking about the USSR (and Nazism) but about the NEGATIVE SUM GAME in which the Core Party prospers because the nation doesn't. Likewise the Randian Cult has prospered, even though almost none of its members has ever personally benefited - nor the nation.

Envision the country at the end of Atlas Shrugged, lying in ruins and starvation. As the NEw Lords emerge, you are told confidently that utopia will ensue. But the end image is overwhelmingly NEGATIVE SUM.

The New Lords have won... by making everybody poor.

Neolibertarian said...

What's the point of arguing the big picture if I can't get you to look at the real world instead of a picture created out of your own imagination?

What a beutiful example of the brand of illogic that Friedman peddles. Putting aside the grosss mischaracterization, this tactic of atacking details and ignoring the broad view is exactly the sort used by denialists such as creationists and climate change deniers.

In the epsitemological world of David Friedman, all you need to do is find a single detail which isn't 100% consistent with the stated theory and you invalidate the whole.

Is there a signle gap in the fossil record? Then evolution is false.

Did some scientist use the word "trick"? Then climate change is a hoax.

With sustained effort, numerous such cherries can be found, while simultaneously ignoring the preponderance of evidence.

To pick and choose minutea to attack as a method of inquiry is the furthest thing from rational inquiry. In pursuing this line of rhetoric Friedman only exposes his own ideological bigotry, and lack of intellectual rigor.

sociotard said...

Massachusetts Attorney General hits big banks with foreclosure lawsuit.

link

David Brin said...

Well, Neolibertarian, in fairness, Some assertions can be refuted with a single counter example. "It is very difficult to fly" is different than "Man will never fly." The latter was disprove by one example.

But in my case, my Randian assertions were just as valid after KG found one proletarian character who had kids...

..., or after I admitted that "merchants and manufacturers" had to be interpreted to know who (the owners of the East and West India companies) Adam Smith was actually talking about.

My assertion that - across 6000 years - cabals of wealth-owners constituted THE great enemy of creative-competitive enterprise and markets still stands. I have challenged David and others to find the counter examples...

I know of half a dozen! But if they constitute 1% of decades and societies, does that disprove my point? Or does the 99% in which human nature made CHEATERS and competition-avoiders out of the rich carry a lot of weight?

I assert that true libertarians must choose between their current obsession on defending massive heaps of festering wealth and defending competitive enterprise, in which wealth is just one incentive. An incentive of real merit, but one that can overdose, like alcohol or Mj or even food!

Steve Jobs changed the world more than any Saudi Prince, or Sam Walton, or even Bill Gates. Yet his fortune was just $8billions and he took $1 a year. Why?

Beyond a certain point, property isn't the issue! It is changing the world.

Bluebottle said...

Try this just for amusement.
http://saintaardvarkthecarpeted.com/ayn_rand/

KateGladstone said...

Re:

> Now let me throw Dr Brin's typical question at you: Who is in a position to do more ACTUAL damage with that way of thinking? A lefty professor who most people have never heard of unless they bother to google her? Or a millionaire lobbyist who has Senators and Congressmen making pledges to do his bidding?

I believe that both of them can, and do, execute immense damage (and not only on people who know their names). It's evil and angerous when statesmen pledge o do the bidding of a Norquist -- it is just as evil and just as dangerous (in the long run) if disciples of *any* reality-is-determined-by-whim type (left, right, or any other type) learn that children should be taught it's *impossible* to determine (e.g.) how fast a gear will rotate. (And I have seen this taught, to. bright young girl who was asking her science-teacher if there was a way to figure out such things. The teacher, when I ater asked him why he said so, assured me that the concept of a discernible real-world answer was no longer tenable: "Facts are real when we choose by consensus to say so, and not otherwise: facts are not about nothing beyond our own psychologically or culturally detemined tendencies to arrange certain words in certain ways." (He was not amused — certainly was not inclined to scrutinize his own position — when I then asked: "Is that a fact?")
One does not need to have heard of a professor to adopt ideas (good or bad) which that professor taught to ohers who taught still others ... just as one does not need to know who has coughed on you in order to catch flu from it.

Re:

> Remember the purpose of "2+2=5". It's not as simple as "4 is inconvenient, so we'd rather the answer is 5 instead."

I agree, but today's "2+2=5" is even more messed up than Big Brother's. The people in Orwell's fiction at least had an idea that there was such a thing as "truth" (even though they mis-defined "truth" as "whatever Big Brother asserts") ... More anymore, there are peopletodaywho regard *nothihg* as being even potentially true or false: "2+2 = whatever." (Even though Big Brother's arithmetic was wrong, it at least yielded a numerical answer rather than a vague all-swallowing blur.)

Re:

> Now I know that Ayn Rand considers this to be a particularly leftist excess.

I'm not she, though. Rightists (and others, including the self-proclaimed apoliticals) are just as guilty of that, even if she did not notice.
Further, from the evidence availableto me (I never met her), I gree with your evaluation of how she interacted with her inner-circle disciples:

> ... If you were in her inner circle, you had better answer that 2 + 2 is what Ayn Rand wants it to be, or else you were excommunicated. One day, Nathaniel Branden was the second greatest human being in history (second to Rand herself), and the next, he was scum of the earth, worthy of ruination through slander. No different from believing that "We have always been at war with Eastasia."
...

Why didn't she notice where she violated her own principles?

KateGladstone said...

That "saint aardvark" link is a truly charming alternate history ...

Tooch said...

LarryH,

First off great comments, love the discussion.

First comment. You have me a bit wrong. I don't trust any one person to make most decisions like that. So I would welcome a FUNCTIONING Democracy. That is not what our government is. It is a somewhat functioning REPUBLIC. We vote for representatives who then vote for us. As Dr. Brin notes not everyone with concentrated wealth earned it and is competent. I don't believe wealth is the standard for good decision making.

Second comment. You do not have to lose or have "emanate domain" call on your property to have your property rights taken away. The government can just pass a law that restricts what you can do on your property like not be able to build on it or cut down a tree or walk on it. Bingo loss of property rights.

As far as corporations polluting the land, water or air that is a case of making life impossible. So it definitely is in a proper governments jurisdiction. Notice though I use the word jurisdiction. For it is in the courts were such things should be decided not in congress. Each case is different and a blanket law is not in the best interest of the citizenry. (my opinion) I know that judges can be bought and sold etc... but so can anyone else in government we have to work with the cards we are dealt.

I am not a fan of any party. I am a fan of smart people who have a point of view, who talk directly and clearly and can provide enlighten leadership. I am also a fan of people who do not let sensitivity of others override the truth. So I don't like politicians.

I support the rights in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.


As for the values in Atlas Shrugged. They talk about the endlessly in the book. (that is one reason it is real slog to read) All your points are in that scene in the book I agree. I for one did not think any of the Galt Gulch gang were the inhuman demi-gods most of the commenters on this blog made them out to be. They screw up and go off the pure faith, yeh sure they valued their friend and wanted to save him. Dagny shot the guard who like a idiot would not just get out of the way. Was she despicable? Yes, but then the man she loved was down there and they were doing G_d knows what to him. Its a novel. I am glad you enjoyed the Comic book nature of that scene in the book, I liked it too.

David Brin said...

The dire threat of some lefty professors. What malarkey. Postmodernist-lefty professors are jokes. There are a few thousand of them, infesting lit and English and soft-studies departments, mostly laughed at by their students. Or foisting impractical notions that the infected kids soon outgrow. (Oh I hate them; they preach against science fiction!)

These dopes have been at it for FIFTY YEARS... and still, 95% of liberals and democrats simply shrug off the postmodernist or lefty-socialist crap. Despite the Beck-Limbaugh outright-damnable LIE that "all liberals think like that."

To even TRY to equate those few thousand flakes to the malignant influence of Fox - run by billionaires like Murdoch and bin Waleed and geniuses like Roger Ailes, hypnotizing ONE THIRD of all Americans into hating science, hating journalists, doctors, teachers... every profession of intellect that might ever challenge the oligarchy.

Only flat out idiots, in total denial, would equate the threat to our enlightenment republic posed by these two groups.

soc said...

Tooch:

As far as corporations polluting the land, water or air that is a case of making life impossible. So it definitely is in a proper governments jurisdiction. Notice though I use the word jurisdiction. For it is in the courts were such things should be decided not in congress. Each case is different and a blanket law is not in the best interest of the citizenry. (my opinion) I know that judges can be bought and sold etc... but so can anyone else in government we have to work with the cards we are dealt.

Are you suggesting that if a factory pollutes my air and water and I am afflicted with a painful medical condition as a result(which may be terminal), I'll have to go and fight my case in court?

Is it unreasonable of me to prefer that the pollution never happened in the first place? We place limits on government power to stop it from violating our rights. These limits are preventative measures. If it is okay to take such measures against government, why not corporations?

Tony Fisk said...

Kate seems to be drawing on personal experience of the 'flakey left' vs the abstract threat of the 'Foxy right', which would make it a bit more intense and skewed than others might think is warranted.

KateGladstone said...

For what it's worth, I find the right _at_least_ as flaky and foxy as the left. Personal experience naturally plays a part in any evaluation of danger — and my experiences include growing up with a father _so_ scarily far right (through much of his life) that he regarded the John Birch Society as rather leftist.

rewinn said...

On the lighter side, the Occupy Movement Has A Disco Anthem ...

... which makes sense. If you can't make your point with good humor, you can't make it at all, IMO.

rewinn said...

Venture capitalist Nick Hanauer, a solid member of the 1%, explains the economic problem ...

"There can never be enough superrich Americans to power a great economy. The annual earnings of people like me are hundreds, if not thousands, of times greater than those of the average American, but we don’t buy hundreds or thousands of times more stuff. My family owns three cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and a few shirts a year, just like most American men.
....I can’t buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can’t buy any new clothes or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the tens of millions of middle-class families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.
... Rich businesspeople like me don’t create jobs. Middle-class consumers do, and when they thrive, U.S. businesses grow and profit. That’s why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is a great deal for both the middle class and the rich."


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-01/raise-taxes-on-the-rich-to-reward-job-creators-commentary-by-nick-hanauer.html

rewinn said...

@Tooch
@soc already addressed the irrationality (in technical/economic terms) of leaving regulation up to the courts. We see that method fail spectacularly often, e.g. the Exxon Valdez litigation, in which a significant portion of the injured group died before Exxon exhausted its legal remedies, and Exxon was deterred from further bad behavior not at all.

One other point is worth addressing:
"... government can just pass a law that restricts what you can do on your property like not be able to build on it or cut down a tree or walk on it..."
I think this shows a basic misunderstanding of property rights. Unless you're a native American, your right to land passed to you from government ... perhaps by way of your homesteading great-grandparents, perhaps by direct purchase. In no case did you take the land free of an agreement to accept government burdening your land with obligations imposed through the regular political process. You may not have thought about it at the time; perhaps you bought your land from someone thinking that you were acquiring all rights to the land including freedom from regulation, but that is simply not what was in the original royal grant, homestead, or what-have-you.

David Brin said...

Re the Hanauer statement (above)

Now, this one-percenter is a hero and I like him and agree.

But still, just among us chickens, the Supply Siders do not expect 1%ers to help the economy by buying stuff (which is high velocity stimulation), but rather by investing in new “supply” systems like plants and equipment and factories and inventions.

The irony? This is probably exactly what Hanauer and other venture capitalists are doing! Indeed, I believe that what THEY do should have very low capital gains taxes.Direct capitalization of a startup company. It is risky and does a lot of good.

This is very different than buying a share of existing stock from another person. None of that transaction goes into creating plants and equipment, except by ever-so-slightly raising the average share price so the company can sell a few more de novo shares at a slightly higher price. In other words, the most useless way to stimulate industry, dollar by dollar.

The problem is that Supply Side is wedged. It envisions ALL one percenters as being risk-taking primary investors, like Hanauer, instead of passive recipients of dividends, unmanaged capital gains from established stocks, and tax-break largesse. The lowest-velocity use of money, rewarding the least economically useful activity, which has never ever ever done what the supply siders claim it would do.

I favor low cap gains tax on the FIRST owner of a share of stock! Medium tax with inflation adjustment for VERY long term holders who vote their shares. And HIGH tax on all other stock gains. ANd a transaction tax.

Watch as lots of new companies are born.

Tony Fisk said...

Compare Hanhauer with another chap who thinks the occupy movement is further evidence that the middle class has gotten too large (via Stefan)

David Brin said...

Wot a jurk that guy iz

Tony Fisk said...

Indeed. Dunno who breeds 'em!

Ian said...

"Yes, I'm enough of a libertarian to know that foolish things do happen! Witness Europe, mired in nanny-state entitlements, eight week vacations and a "right to retire" as young as 55. Self-defeating regulations prevent companies from firing workers, with the consequence that they seldom hire new ones."

Checked the German or Swedish unemployment rates agaisnt the US rate latyely David?

Tim H. said...

This seems to dovetail well with a previous topic, seasteading. Let them develop a libertarian society outside the United States, to spare non-participants the grief.
"berpan", sanitary device in ursian hospital.

LarryHart said...

Dr Brin:

Envision the country at the end of Atlas Shrugged, lying in ruins and starvation. As the NEw Lords emerge, you are told confidently that utopia will ensue. But the end image is overwhelmingly NEGATIVE SUM.

The New Lords have won... by making everybody poor.


I think the Randroids would say that the only reason everybody hadn't been poor ALL ALONG was that they were undeservedly feasting off of the life essence of the productive few. By destroying civilization, the New Lords had simply put an end to that.

I'm not arguing in favor of their postion--just pointing out that even if they accept your view of the book's ending, they're STILL going to see it as fair and just.

LarryHart said...

Tooch:

You do not have to lose or have "emanate domain" call on your property to have your property rights taken away. The government can just pass a law that restricts what you can do on your property like not be able to build on it or cut down a tree or walk on it. Bingo loss of property rights.


You can lose those same property rights because of a fire or an earthquake or wind damage. Not exactly relevant, but I mention it to point out that even in Libertarian Paradise, there would be no 100% guarantees.

More to your point--wouldn't THIS be the sort of thing that is "best sorted out in the courts". Seems to me that that is the venue in which you would either make a case that the common need is not sufficient to warrant restrictions on your property, or failing that, to assess proper compensation for your loss.

Finally, to get a bit esoteric, I would ask you how you earned the "right" to that land in the first place? In our generation, you probably paid money for it to someone who in turn paid someone else for it, but how did the FIRST owner aquire those property rights? By squatting on land that was free and clear because no one ELSE was using it? What about all of the people in the country who were "using" it by breathing the oxygen its trees produced or drinking from the river that flowed through it? Did the first owner recompensate all of those people for removing "his" land from the commons? Just asking the question.

LarryHart said...

Tooch:

As far as corporations polluting the land, water or air that is a case of making life impossible. So it definitely is in a proper governments jurisdiction.


I totally agree, but most libertarians don't, or at least SEEM not to. The argument I ususually here is that property rights trump all. Haliburton's right to make a profit (via fracking for gas and oil reserves) overrides any consideration of what they do to the groundwater serving surrounding communities.

I'm saying you can't pretend to favor an absolute right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, AND property for individuals as if that's the end of the discussion. The problem is that those rights are often in conflict, and those conflicts have to be managed equitably. That IS the proper role for government.

If "your property" contains part of the aquafer or the river or even the atmosphere that MY property depends upon, then how can BOTH of our property rights be absulute?

If we're both "pursuing" the same girlfriend, then my pursuit of happiness directly impedes yours, and vice versa.


Notice though I use the word jurisdiction. For it is in the courts were such things should be decided not in congress. Each case is different and a blanket law is not in the best interest of the citizenry.


The courts don't make law. What can the courts do without legislation setting the rules in the first place?

LarryHart said...

Tooch:

I support the rights in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.


Well, so do I (except for that whole slavery thing, of course :) )

Just to be clear, though, the Declaration says:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that AMONG THESE ARE Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


(emphasis mine)

Point being that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are enumerated examples of such inalienable rights, but Jefferson wasn't claiming them to be a complete set of necessary and sufficient condtions.


They [Dagny and company] screw up and go off the pure faith, yeh sure they valued their friend and wanted to save him. Dagny shot the guard who like a idiot would not just get out of the way. Was she despicable? Yes, but then the man she loved was down there and they were doing G_d knows what to him.


I'm just saying that Rand demanded specaial consideration for herself and her fictional heroes that she doesn't allow for anyone else. She (and by extension, her heroes) and she (they) ALONE deserve to have others sacrifice for THEIR sake. She (they) are such exceptional beings that they really are to be taken as "exceptions that prove the rule". Ironically, by being that way, Rand proves herself to be very much NOT an exception, but very much like 6000 years worth of petty "leaders" before her.

I'd have been more keen on that aspect of the climax if it was ACKNOWLEDGED as such--if the narrative and the characters recognized that they were willing to violate their own ethics in this one case instead of half-assedly pretending that everything they did affirmed those ethics after all.


Its a novel. I am glad you enjoyed the Comic book nature of that scene in the book, I liked it too.


I did too, but it's important to recognize that I enjoyed it AS adolescent adventure fiction rather than as a polemic. Dr Brin and I disagree slightly on why we think Rand left childrearing out of (most of) the book. I think she didn't worry about the next generation because she wrote adolescent adventure fiction, which does not concern itself with inevtbilities such as age and death. The heroes taking their place is the "happy ending", full stop.

LarryHart said...

Dr Brin:

Wot a jurk that guy iz


Well, what do you expect from someone who numbers the "five points" he's making one through six? :)

Seriously, though, this was the one that stood out for me:

2) Lazy choices for majors/jobs — “follow your bliss” is stupid advice if no one wants to fund your bliss. All prosperity comes through serving the needs of others. Follow their bliss, not yours, and you will do well.


This is Rand Paul "All good things flow from rich people" insanity. It essentially posits that it is right and just that everything of value is already owned by somebody else, and that you only deserve to live if you demonstrate that it is in THEIR interests to dole some of it out to you.

Then there's the obligatory "Where the eff did THIS come from?" dog whistle which blames liberal constituencies (blacks and poor people) for all evils:

5) Personal Ethics — Societies that tolerate many children conceived out of wedlock, and no-fault divorce create an underclass of poor women with children, and the children are far less able to compete because they have no father figure.


Then comes the friendly advice to the opposition:

Someone please send the memo to the “Occupy” crowd, and tell them that have succeeded at being the “freak show” amid changing times, but utterly irrelevant to the changes happening around the globe. If they have jobs, get to them, if not, go find one. You might be relevant then.


New Rule: When they have to keep convincing themselves that you are not relevant, then you ARE.

David Friedman said...

Eric writes:

"When warming was observed the assumption was that it was the predicted warming, and that because it was anthropogenic the possibility of doing something about it existed. Non-anthropogenic warming is not necessarily correctable."

Non-anthropogenic warming is not necessarily correctable, but it might be, via some form of geoengineering.

But anthropogenic warming isn't necessarily correctable either. The reason it feels correctable is because one imagines humanity as a single person, and that single person could choose not to whatever it is doing that causes warming. But humanity isn't a single person, it's about eight billion different people with different objectives, beliefs, abilities, ... . That fact restricts what can be done just as the laws of physics do.

David Friedman said...

Larry Hart writes (in the context of environmental regulations to protect the spotted owl taking away someone's property rights):

"For the government to "take away his property rights", there is supposed to be compensation."

You are mistaken. If the government seizes land, as under eminent domain, there is supposed to be compensation. If the government imposes new regulatory rules that drastically reduce the value of your land by restricting what you can do with it, under current law no compensation is owed.

Richard Epstein long ago argued that compensation should be owed in that case, which is one reason that in one of the Supreme Court nomination hearings we saw a senator asking the nominee whether he agreed with Epstein--with the clear implication that doing so would be a disqualification.

David Friedman said...

Larry writes:

"How could you argue that ANYONE had the right to accumulate personal property, taking it out of circulation IN PERPETUITY? How long until nothing of value remains unclaimed?"

You seem to imagine that we live in a world with a fixed amount of stuff in it just sitting there waiting to be claimed. If that were the case, we would still be in caves, since the fixed amount of stuff back then didn't include houses.

The usual way, in a system of private property and trade, that people acquire wealth is by creating it--by doing something of value to other people, with the result that those other people are willing to give something in exchange. They are increasing the total size of the pie, typically by more than the amount they get, not less. So the result is not that there is less left for other people but more.

He also writes:

"They may not explicitly adore massive accumulated wealth, but they implicitly denounce any system to counteract its inevitable effects."

You are making the same mistake as Brin--taking it for granted that your particular views are so obviously correct that anyone who disagrees with your policies must be in favor of the results you are against. That's wholly unjustified arrogance in both of you.

Translate "inevitable effects" into "the effects that Larry believes are inevitable" and it might occur to you that other people sometimes disagree with you.

David Friedman said...

Larry asks:

"What happens to the property rights of people who live around (for example) Love Canal whose property becomes worthless to sell and dangerous to live on?"

A fine argument against the eminent domain whose threat was used to force the company that had taken precautions to keep those pollutants from getting out to transfer it to a local government that let someone else run bulldozers through the clay containment.

Hence an argument for strong private property rights against government, not against them.

David Friedman said...

Larry asks (someone else):

"Why do you (at least seem to) trust the possessors of concentrated wealth and power to make those decisions any better than We The People would?"

Thus demonstrating that you are entirely ignorant of the position you are arguing against.

Opponents of strong government don't trust the rich more than the poor or the middle. They trust people who can only get things from them by voluntary exchange more than people who can use the power of government to take things from them without their permission. That applies to rich people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them, just as it applies to poor people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them.

David Friedman said...

Kate writes, about "the exception proves the rule,"

"However, I do not see how such explanations apply to the most frequent present-day use of the phrase: "

The explanation of that is easy-indeed has been repeatedly demonstrated by our host on this blog. People don't like to admit that they are wrong.

The standard misuse of the phrase is a way of pretending that evidence against you is really evidence for you, which is obviously a very useful thing to be able to pretend. It doesn't make any sense, but that's no obstacle to using it, unfortunately.

David Friedman said...

Larry asks:

"Are you by any chance thinking of Grover Norquist's assertion (back around the invasion of Iraq) that liberals were stuck in a (his words) "reality-based world", while THEY (neocons) made their OWN reality?"

Unless you have later information on that case than I do--possible--what you mean is "the assertion by a liberal journalist that an unnamed person associated with the Bush administration described the difference in those terms."

I have argued for some time that the willingness of liberals to believe the story--a story that makes their side look good, told by someone on that side--not only without any confirmation from the person who supposedly made the comment but without the person even being identified is evidence that they are not in fact part of the reality based community, however much they wish to pretend that they are.

Has Grover Norquist in fact made that statement in some public forum? Indeed, what makes you think he is the person claimed to have made it?

soc said...

When judges adjudicate, they in a sense legislate as well. Their interpertation of an ambigious law has the force of law, once they make their judgement.

So if the constitution is the only law, then a judge will still have to interperate what property rights, liberty etc., mean in the context of the dipute being adjudicated on. So a judge will make the law.

We will end up in a situation where judges will become the primary lawmakers rather than a legislature.

We will still end up in a country with lots of laws but they won't be made by elected representatives.

soc said...

On a side note:

Star Trek vs Star wars

William Shatner and Carrie Fisher make the case for their side :)

Acacia H. said...

@David Friedman: By your argument then, we shouldn't do anything about littering and people throwing trash on the ground because humanity as a whole will do things like this, and one person can't change a thing. But... when one person picks stuff up and throws it away, it cleans up a small area. When a hundred work together, they can clean an entire park or stretch of road. Humanity is a cooperative species. Without that cooperative tendency we could not build houses (at least not without a huge amount of effort for a small building), roads, forges and smelters, farms... in essence, we'd be cavemen dwelling in caves and scrounging around for food on an individual basis.

With funding, a group of several thousand people could build a railgun built up into a tall mountain in the U.S. or Asia and use it to launch reflective materials toward the Lagrange point between the Sun and the Earth. When enough reflective materials (mirrors, basically) are put up there, the amount of sunlight reaching the Earth is reduced and temperatures cool as a result. It is one of several geoengineering projects proposed to deal with global warming (and one that would work on a longer scale).

As for property rights... there are no such thing. Property is a philosophical concept created by mankind. The Earth is. No one owns it. Not even one small piece. We have governments and groups of people who allow this illusion created by the philosophy of property rights, but when you boil it down to a physics mathematical formula you find it is not real.

In Hawaii, there is no land ownership (from what I understand). People lease land for 99 years. After the 99 years is up, the buildings and such on the property would be in theory torn down unless the Hawaiian government renews that lease. But even if it's renewed into perpetuity... the government of Hawaii owns that land (the ownership of which being a human philosophical concept), not the people on it.

Rob H.

Jacob said...

Hi Rob H.,

Property rights as all rights are a social construct. Even the right to life is somewhat quixotic as we have to consume other life in order to sustain ours.

Rather reveal the negative aspects of the tool "property rights" while acknowledging its virtues.

I tend to agree with you. However, I felt you hurt your argument by talking about it as not existing in nature.

Robert said...

Not directly germane to this thread, but an important difference between Ayn Rand and some of her present-day followers:

http://ariwatch.com/AynRandOnTorture.htm

Further evidence that she would have had nothing to do with the Bush hijacking operation.

There were moments when even the later Ayn Rand could shine; it's why I've never written her off completely.

Bob Pfeiffer.

David Brin said...

Ian,the Europeans cheat their unemployment figures. Have you any idea how many "students" they have at university, on a stipend that goes on and on and on into their forties?

Larryhart you are right that the Ranidans depart from the usual justification for capitalism, that it raises all boats. They don't give a damn if it does. But that circles back to my argument. They do not think positive sum games.

"why we think Rand left childrearing out of (most of) the book. I think she didn't worry about the next generation because she wrote adolescent adventure fiction, which does not concern itself with inevtbilities such as age and death."

Sure,that's the shallow truth.. Only like George Lucas, she can't use that excuse because she relentlessly claims to be writing a guidebook of wisdom for human civilization

David Brin said...

David F said: "You are making the same mistake as Brin--taking it for granted that your particular views are so obviously correct that anyone who disagrees with your policies must be in favor of the results you are against. That's wholly unjustified arrogance in both of you."

As Indiana Jones says to his nemesis at one point - Now you're just being nasty. I have never ad hominemed you in general terms (or any terms) like this. Back it up, man.

Spit it out David. What "policies" do you accuse me of maintaining as exCathedra truths? Is that consistent with the tone of elevated-if-vigorous argument you see in this blogmunity - which is one of the best in the Net?

As I see it, we have bickered mainly over whether owner aristocracies have manifested the greatest consistent enemies of freedom and markets, across 6000 years. That is the assertion that I threw at your feet, like a gauntlet. Instead of proving me wrong, you have quibbled and nibbled and pounced on minutia.

I offered to let you use the simplest rebuttal... disproof by offering counter-examples. I can think of a dozen myself! I'll lend them to you, if you like! That hardly sounds like an arrogant assumption of perfection.

Roll those dice, David. DO the honest experiment.If my assertion proves to be mostly right, are you adaptable?

sociotard said...

Frank Luntz, spinmaster for the republicans, talked to a republican governors association.

"I'm so scared of this anti-Wall Street effort. I'm frightened to death," said Frank Luntz, a Republican strategist and one of the nation's foremost experts on crafting the perfect political message. "They're having an impact on what the American people think of capitalism."

Then he said a bunch of spin words. (Don't say the government takes from the rich, say it takes from taxpayers)

David Brin said...

David F, your Love Canal argument was a case for COMPETENCE and ACCOUNTABILITY. Those egregious errors could be made by either government or private enterprise, with the cavil that bureaucrats are often watched more closely.

"Opponents of strong government don't trust the rich more than the poor or the middle. They trust people who can only get things from them by voluntary exchange more than people who can use the power of government to take things from them without their permission. That applies to rich people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them, just as it applies to poor people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them."

Actually, I agree with all of this. Hence my ongoing campaign to flood the world with TRANSPARENCY... which leads to RECIPROCAL ACCOUNTABILITY... which is the fundamental tool of all enlightenment processes, from markets to democracy to science.

Problem is, David, that this fine and grand pronouncement of yours ignores all of human nature and human history, in which those with power did everything they could to avoid light, transparency and two-way accountability.

Markets only started functioning near their potential when government became an active way to counter-balance the power of elites to cheat. Their inevitable tendency to cheat.

David Brin said...

David F.

You might be amazed to hear me in the presence of socialists etc, David. I am fierce in my complaints that government solutions should always be last-resort ones and should always have expiration processes, since they inevitably fester, or even get captured by cheaters.

Pressure in this direction would be the role of a sane and adult libertarian movement...

...not one that has been repudiated by the voters for 60 years, for its frenzied and airy dogmatism, eschewing any reckoning with actual human nature. Actual human history. Nor any thought of pragmatism or negotiation.

Ask around here! Ask the other guys if Brin doesn't turn his glare leftward, toward statists, socialists and lefty flakes!

sociotard said...

They cheat to make unemployment look higher than it is? What good does that do them?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_une-labor-unemployment

USA 5%
Germany 7%
Canada 7.3%
France 9.3%
Italy 10.3%

David Brin said...

Final note about that tale by a reporter about the Bush aide wanting to "make our own reality."
The "we make our own reality" story would not stand on its own...

...except that it is wholly consistent with the entire oeurvre of the fanatical followers of that madman Leo Strauss, who escaped from European hell into American paradise at the U. Chicago...

...and ungratefully proceeded to rant that America should abandon liberal pragmatism in favor of the Hegelian-monstrous and quasi-Nietzschean Triumph of Will thinking that had made his homeland an inferno. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

Anyone who claims that lefty-flake college professors (whom I despise BTW) are a dire threat to American youth should be shown this bona fide monster of the right, whose horrific effects upon impressionable students led to the worst era of misgovernment in America since James Buchanan.

David, you knew about Strauss. And Wolfowitz, Perle, Adelman, Nitze and the whole raft of utter fools who raved EXACTLY the same baloney about "making our own reality." So why did you say what you did?

I am GLAD because it gave me a chance to trot out Strauss. BTW any libertarian should be as appalled by that vampire as I am.

Robert you are right that Ayn Rand had her moments. e.g. ANTHEM.

LarryHart said...

David Friedman,

I didn't know that the Norquist attribution was in dispute. I apologize for slandering him personally if he wasn't the one who said "We're an empire now. We make our own reality."

As to the point I was making by citing that quote, I don't think it is diminished by a DIFFERENT Bush aide saying it in the context. If your contention is that a liberal reporter made the whole thing up...well, I'd prefer to see some reason to believe that.

As to the rest of your diatribes against me personally, about how I'm too arrogant to consider the fact that I might be wrong, let's just say you don't know me very well. My old conservative buddy who I used to be able to talk to until Obama's election drove him insane--his complaint against me was that I, like all liberals, was too wishy-washy to take a firm stand on anything.

You might ask yourself what button I managed to push to make you throw the first ad-hominem.

LarryHart said...

Dr Brin:

I think she didn't worry about the next generation because she wrote adolescent adventure fiction, which does not concern itself with inevtbilities such as age and death."

Sure,that's the shallow truth.. Only like George Lucas, she can't use that excuse because she relentlessly claims to be writing a guidebook of wisdom for human civilization


Sure.

We're in perfect agreement that she fails to write a good instruction manual on an ideal civilization.

We differ slightly in our reading on her motivation. No biggie, as far as I'm concerned.

And to David F's point: I may be wrong, after all.

LarryHart said...

Dr Brin:

Larryhart you are right


Heh.



...that the Ranidans depart from the usual justification for capitalism, that it raises all boats. They don't give a damn if it does. But that circles back to my argument. They do not think positive sum games.



Ok, this is highly speculative, so yeah, I may be wrong...

My reading is that they (to misquote Captain Kirk) don't BELIEVE in the positive sum game.

By this, I mean that even if Galt would be better off himSELF by lifting all boats (as Henry Ford was better off by paying his workers enough to make customers out of them) Galt would consider that to be morally wrong. The rabble don't DESERVE to have their boats lifted, so lifting those boats is WRONG. If failing to lift those boats ended up with Galt himself being somewhat poorer than otherwise, he'd be willing to live with that fact as long as his moral purity remained intact.

Again, I MAY BE WRONG, but that's what it seems to me that Rand would answer.

Robert said...

David B., you zeroed in on her best work - ANTHEM is it. Right up there with the other great dystopian works, and probably closest to Zamiatin's WE in spirit. As you pointed out earlier, Rand was very, very Russian; something that was both maddening and endearing. Along those lines, you may want to check out Matthew Sciabarra's Ayn Rand, Russian Radical. It's largely sympathetic, but critical, and of course, condemned by the Ayn Rand Institute.

Bob Pfeiffer.

rewinn said...

@David Friedman said...
"Thus demonstrating that you are entirely ignorant of the position you are arguing against."

No; it shows that you want to answer a different question than the one that he asked.

"... Opponents of strong government don't trust the rich more than the poor or the middle. They trust people who can only get things from them by voluntary exchange more than people who can use the power of government to take things from them without their permission ..."

Do you truly think that those two extremes are the only two possibilities?

In particular, do you think that IRL there are no situations in which a small aristocracy controls access to necessities, and therefore exchange is not truly voluntary? Does not history teach us that, in the absence of regulation, necessities such as rail transport for grain farmers or private health insurance for everybody tend in a free market to become highly concentrated due to economies of scale and other barriers to market entry? If so, how can exchange be considered truly "voluntary" when, for example, a grain farmer has no choice but to deal with the sole provider of rail service?

Does not your willing assent to live in this democracy include your freely given consent to accept that sometimes you will lose at the ballot box?

Sometimes government acts in ways with which you disagree; The Lord knows it usually acts in ways with which *I* disagree! The fundamental issue was settled in the 18th century; our remedies are to try harder at the next election, or to withdraw from the bargain by moving to Canada or Singapore or some other paradise of socialism or capitalism, respectively.

LarryHart said...

David Friedman:

Opponents of strong government don't trust the rich more than the poor or the middle. They trust people who can only get things from them by voluntary exchange more than people who can use the power of government to take things from them without their permission. That applies to rich people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them, just as it applies to poor people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them.


Isn't this a little like "The law prohibits rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges"? In a completely unregulated society, who is going to be able to impose his will upon others? The rich or the poor?

Again, I will restate what seems to be your argument in slightly different but analogous terms. What would be your response were I to argue that police forces were inherently wrong and should be abolished. I presume you would remind me that a world without police would leave me vulnerable to the predations of criminals. I doubt you would accept as sufficient a response from me that I never said I liked criminals either--that I prefer the society of freely-honest individuals to that of criminals OR policemen.

I also doubt you would accept the notion that it is only your OPINION that criminals would take advantage of a policeless society, and that many others disagreed with you.

Does that make my objection more clear?


Thus demonstrating that you are entirely ignorant of the position you are arguing against.


I know you are, but what am I?

David Brin said...

David F sure stirred you guys up! Thanks David! I knew you'd fit right in here!

Jeeeeez. I just re-read about Leo Strauss:

According to Strauss, modern social science is flawed because it assumes the fact-value distinction, a concept which Strauss finds dubious, tracing its roots in Enlightenment philosophy to Max Weber, a thinker whom Strauss described as a "serious and noble mind.” Weber wanted to separate values from science but, according to Strauss, was really a derivative thinker, deeply influenced by Nietzsche’s relativism.[6] Strauss treated politics as something that could not be studied from afar. A political scientist examining politics with a value-free scientific eye, for Strauss, was self-deluded. Positivism, the heir to both Auguste Comte and Max Weber in the quest to make purportedly value-free judgments, failed to justify its own existence, which would require a value judgment.

While modern liberalism had stressed the pursuit of individual liberty as its highest goal, Strauss felt that there should be a greater interest in the problem of human excellence and political virtue. Through his writings, Strauss constantly raised the question of how, and to what extent, freedom and excellence can coexist. Strauss refused to make do with any simplistic or one-sided resolutions of the Socratic question: What is the good for the city and man?


And this from a wiki slanted TOWARD him!

Oh but dig this. "Two significant political-philosophical dialogues Strauss had with living thinkers were those he held with Carl Schmitt and Alexandre Kojève. Schmitt, who would later become, for a short time, the chief jurist of Nazi Germany, was one of the first important German academics to positively review Strauss's early work. Schmitt's positive reference for, and approval of, Strauss's work on Hobbes was instrumental in winning Strauss the scholarship funding that allowed him to leave Germany."

A pal - cited by - the chief judge of Nazi Germany.

While everybody was paranoid over commies in govt, we were taken over by the acolytes of a Nazi.

sociotard said...

A fascinating TED talk about openness in science.

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_nielsen_open_science_now.html

David Brin said...

Lest anyone imagine that I think imbecilic anti-science fanaticism exists only on the radical right, dig this hilariously apropos book review -- by the philosopher Matthew Cartmill -- of Donna Haraway's Primate Visions book. It appeared in the International Journal of Primatology (Vol. 12, No. 1, 1991)

”This is a book that contradicts itself a hundred times; but that is not a criticism of it, because its author thinks contradictions are a sign of intellectual ferment and vitality. This is a book that systematically distorts and selects historical evidence; but that is not a criticism, because its author thinks that all interpretations are biased, and she regards it as her duty to pick and choose her facts to favor her own brand of politics. This is a book full of vaporous, French-intellectual prose that makes Teilhard de Chardin sound like Ernest Hemingway by comparison; but that is not a criticism, because the author likes that sort of prose and has taken lessons in how to write it, and she thinks that plain, homely speech is part of a conspiracy to oppress the poor. This is a book that clatters around in a dark closet of irrelevancies for 450 pages before it bumps accidentally into its index and stops; but that is not a criticism, either, because its author finds it gratifying and refreshing to bang unrelated facts together as a rebuke to stuffy minds. This book infuriated me; but that is not a defect in it, because it is supposed to infuriate people like me, and the author would have been happier still if I had blown out an artery. In short, this book is flawless, because all its deficiencies are deliberate products of art. Given its assumptions, there is nothing here to criticize. The only course open to a reviewer who dislikes this book as much as I do is to question its author's fundamental assumptions-which are big-ticket items involving the nature and relationships of language, knowledge, and science.”

http://evgenymorozov.tumblr.com/post/13532572795/this-is-how-you-start-a-takedown

David Friedman said...

Rewinn is unhappy with my pointing out that, since the chance of one vote affecting the outcome of a presidential election is something under one in a million, the belief that the individual voter controls the government is a mystical faith, like the belief that the wine and wafer are the blood and flesh of Jesus. He writes:

"This demonstrate a complete misunderstanding both of democracy and of mathematics."

You have difficulty following the argument? The effect of my vote on the probability that Obama (say) will be reelected is the difference between the probability of his being elected if I vote for him and the probability if I vote against him. Do you deny that that number is less than one in a million? Do you have some version of probability theory in which that isn't true?

He writes:

"Look, I understand invective is fun, but it has no chance of being persuasive. At some point, a person has to decide whether he is trying to have a rational conversation. I'm occasionally snarky but almost always try to make a point when I jab. So what is your point? If it is that democracy is meaningless, then you live on the wrong continent."

Sounds like pure assertion with no argument to me.

Democracy isn't meaningless--it is one possible way of running a government, and has advantages and disadvantages compared to other ways. But it isn't a way of giving each voter control over the government, as should be obvious, and people who insist that it is are offering a statement of mystic faith, not a description of reality.

He quotes me:
"Perhaps that is one reason so much attention is given to the question of whether global warming is anthropogenic. If it's the fault of humans it's bad; if it's natural, on the other hand ...."

And writes:
"Or perhaps you are making an implication that would be absurd on its face were you to finish your sentence."

The natural end of that sentence is "Leftists would be perfectly happy with the death of millions if it were the result of naturally occurring global warming." Is that what you are saying?"

Leftists would be less inclined to view global warming as bad if it were natural. Part of that would be an inclination to attribute to it the death of millions if it were the work of man, and be more skeptical of the same claim for the same global warming if it were natural.

David Friedman said...

Brin writes:

"Spit it out David. What "policies" do you accuse me of maintaining as exCathedra truths?"

He is responding to my:

"taking it for granted that your particular views are so obviously correct that anyone who disagrees with your policies must be in favor of the results you are against."

As you can see by reading that, the statement is about believing the views are obviously correct, not the policies. We have had several examples of that:

1. You insisted that of course I knew that Smith said what you claimed--despite your inability to find a single quote where he said it. You were so sure that was his belief, that after discovering that he didn't say it--after having claimed that he went on and on about it--you explained the lack on the grounds that of course he was too scared of being punished for saying what he really believed to say it.

That looks to me like quite an extraordinary effort to avoid admitting that Smith didn't hold the view you attribute to him. You think the view is so obviously true that he must have held it.

2. Your view of 18th c. Britain, which reveals an almost complete ignorance of the relevant history, signaled by your using some factoids you knew about American history at the time to substitute for any facts about England in your argument.

As I pointed out, England at the time was a place where it was entirely possible to criticize the king, or people in power, and at least one prominent figure did so on a scale much greater than you imagine Smith was afraid to do. It was even possible to sue the Secretary of State (pretty sure he was the defendant) for trying to act against critics--not by jailing them but by holding one of them prisoner for part of a day while searching his papers--and win. With punitive damages. That doesn't sound like the 18th c. Britain of your imagination.

Read your own posts. Over and over they have the general form of "maybe there are flaws in my evidence, but of course you know that my belief is true."

For the most part your beliefs on these subjects are false--but you are so certain of them that you can't get your head around the possibility that they are wrong, or even that reasonable people might think them wrong.

On your general view that it is unequal income (in some but not all versions due to inheritance) that is at the root of the problem, I already explained why the problem of the use of government to stifle competition would still exist without that.

David Friedman said...

Brin writes:

“Problem is, David, that this fine and grand pronouncement of yours ignores all of human nature and human history, in which those with power did everything they could to avoid light, transparency and two-way accountability.”

And you think “That applies to rich people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them, just as it applies to poor people, who use whichever of those methods is available to them" implies that I think people with power don’t try to get away with things?

I’m arguing that strong governments make the bad method available—to rich and poor, with details varying on the particular political situation. Governments aren’t the counterweight to power, they are the chief way, although not the only way, in which people get power over other people.

David Friedman said...

Brin writes:

"Ask the other guys if Brin doesn't turn his glare leftward, toward statists, socialists and lefty flakes!"

Very likely you do. And I hope that if you do it with bad arguments, they rebut them, as I have been trying to do.

As an economist I believe in the division of labor, so prefer to specialize in rebutting bad arguments made against positions I support, although I'm willing to rebut other bad arguments from time to time on general principle.

The important question is not which side you are on--as best I can tell, you are on your own side, having constructed your own ideology out of bits and pieces of other ideologies plus your own ideas. The question is whether what you say is true. Quite often it isn't, and when I think it isn't I say so.

David Friedman said...

Brin writes:

"David, you knew about Strauss. "

My knowledge of Strauss was mostly limited to having sat more or less at his feet for one lecture, which I didn't find convincing, although one of my friends was a fan.

"And Wolfowitz, Perle, Adelman, Nitze and the whole raft of utter fools who raved EXACTLY the same baloney about "making our own reality." So why did you say what you did?"

Because "I am sure they would have said that" isn't an adequate defense for the claim "they did say that."

If I wrote "David Brin says that you should never let the facts get in the way of a good theory," I would be lying. Even though that describes the position I find implicit in your arguments about Smith.

If I said "what's wrong with SF writers who argue about politics is that, as one of them said, "you should never let the facts get in the way of your theories," I would also be lying.

And if I made that claim and someone who didn't like SF writers who argued about politics took my claim for gospel--even though I didn't say who I was quoting or offer any evidence for it--he would be demonstrating a lack of concern with reality.

As are people acting that way in the case I was discussing.

Think about the implications of the following approach to discovering truth:

1. Form a theory (possibly on evidence or logic, possibly not).

2. On the basis of that theory produce factual conjectures.

3. Treat those conjectures as facts--to be used to support your theory.

It is not an approach I advocate. But it is the approach I would be following if I said "neo-conservatives don't really believe in reality, so one of them probably said so, and his saying so just proves that neoconservatives don't believe in reality."

Or, alternatively:

"Smith never expressed the opinion I am sure he had, so that must mean that he lived in an environment where expressing opinions critical of authority was dreadfully dangerous--and the fact that Britain in the 18th century was an environment where criticizing those in power was dreadfully dangerous shows that the history of the world is indeed as I have been claiming it is, a long story of oppression by those in power."

Not a good approach for arriving at truth.

David Friedman said...

Larry writes:

"If your contention is that a liberal reporter made the whole thing up...well, I'd prefer to see some reason to believe that."

My contention is that you do not know whether a reporter made the whole thing up, or misunderstood something someone actually said, or correctly reported it. But you are confident, without evidence, that the third alternative--which happens to fit your political views--is true, and that suggests that you are not very concerned to be sure that your beliefs are based in reality.

As for the "Norquist attribution" being in dispute, I have no idea where you got that attribution. The original article simply said an aide to Bush, and the usual conjecture is that it was Carl Rove.

I don't believe Norquist ever was an aide to Bush, although I could be mistaken.

David Friedman said...

Rewinn asks me:

"Does not history teach us that, in the absence of regulation, necessities such as rail transport for grain farmers or private health insurance for everybody tend in a free market to become highly concentrated due to economies of scale and other barriers to market entry?"

No. History doesn't teach us that. History teaches us that while economies of scale occasionally exist, the main restriction on competition in a market society is government action to create monopolies and restrict entry.

That was true back when the ICC cartelized the railroad industry, something the industry had been trying and failing to do for itself--see Kolko's Railroads and Regulation. It was true when the FAA cartelized the airline industry. It was true when the first New Deal tried to cartelize all sorts of things. It's true when professional licensing, enforced by the government but largely controlled by the profession, is used to restrict entry--to barbers, yacht salesmen, egg graders, ... .

David Friedman said...

"Does not your willing assent to live in this democracy include your freely given consent to accept that sometimes you will lose at the ballot box?"

To make that argument work, you have to first show that the government legitimately owns the country, hence can insist that anyone who doesn't consent to its rules must leave. But since the argument is intended to show the legitimate authority of the government, that's circular reasoning--you have to assume your conclusion in order to derive it.

Obviously I know that sometimes I will lose at the ballot box, but that doesn't mean that things the government does when I do are things it has a right to do. Isn't that obvious?

Suppose the government decided to lock up everyone who criticized it without trial--and had the support of a majority of voters. Would you accept the argument you just offered as a defense of its doing so--that those who disapprove, having lost at the ballot box, have given their consent to accept the outcome? If you won't accept the argument when the government does things you disapprove of, why would you expect me to accept it when it does things I disapprove of?

David Friedman said...

Larry asks:

"In a completely unregulated society, who is going to be able to impose his will upon others? The rich or the poor?"

I don't know what a "completely unregulated society" is supposed to mean. In a society with a strong government able to violate property rights more or less at will, I expect the rich will probably be more successful in using it to impose their will on others, for instance by confiscating land under eminent domain and giving it to them, than the poor. But the poor, or the middle, might sometimes be sufficiently successful in their political efforts to impose their will on the rich.

If "completely unregulated" means "laissez-faire capitalism," which probably isn't what you mean, then the answer is that the rich will achieve their ends mainly by producing stuff that other people want, thus benefiting others as well as themselves. There will probably be some opportunities to benefit themselves at the cost of others as well, for instance by fraud, but many fewer than if there is a powerful government for them to use--fraud is a much more limited tool than force.

Are you somehow imagining that the alternative to a "completely unregulated society" is "a society regulated to keep the rich from imposing their will?" Why do you expect that to be the form of regulation observed in a political system?

David Friedman said...

I wrote:

"It was true when the FAA cartelized the airline industry"

oops.

The CAA, eventually the CAB. But it had other labels earlier, and I'm not sure at exactly what point it started controlling prices and entry.

David Brin said...

David F complains that our votes in elections are so diluted that they seem individually useless. And certainly I accept his point. I could answer on many levels, e.g. that there are ways to multiply your influence. By arguing with your neighbors and persuading them, for instance. In a sense, the Occupy kids are doing that, though as-yet inefficiently.

One highly under-rated element of complex modern society is the non-governmental interest group. FOr $300/year you can join ten advocacy/interest groups... the Sierra Club, Amnesty International, the Electronic Freedom Foundation, Project Witness, The Natural Rifle Association... choosing the mix that reflects your own passions and carings.

These groups will then pool your membership with maybe a million others and use that to leverage things in ways you alone could not. And you get a nice magazine.

This modern innovation is actually quite spectacular. It does many things. It lets average folk pool together and thus get to argue, face-to-face with the lobbyists of bloatCorps and oligarchs. From a libertarian perspective, it lets you pay a small sum and buy leverage for your opinions that exceeds your individual vote.

The fact that this happens, and no one writes about it AS A GENERAL PHENOMENON (except me; see the afterword to EARTH), is depressing.

David Brin said...

Would the lefties care about global warming if it weren't human-caused?

Yes, David, Lefties have their guilt trip addiction, as evidenced especially by AVATAR. They tend toward a retro-nostalgic troglodyte-reactionary romanticism that CAN get as bad as the same trend in radical rightists.

The difference is that the truly rabid nonsense-spewing trogs of the left number perhaps 500,000 nincompooops in SanFrancisco and a hundred university soft-studies departments, and maybe some hollywood types.

The horro-trogs of the right number perhaps eighty or ninety MILLION stunning marching morons, hypnotized by a MUdochian/Saudi propaganda machine into hating science and evreything modern about their country.

What? Are you asking me to choose between these madnesses? I won't. I hate them both. But I know what's more dangerous.

Oh, Would the lefties care about global warming if it weren't human-caused?

Why should I give a crap? 99% of the people who ACTUALLY KNOW a thing or two about gas balance, radiative transfer, convection analysis, cellular weather and climate models and the atmospheres of SIX PLANETS all agree that humanity and the United States ought to prudently multiply our efforts to achieve energy efficiency.,... something that we ought to do anyway... even if 99% of the experts are wrong.

Anyone who would ignore such advice, or use tobacco-era methods to confuse and delay and obstruct commonsense.... anyone who would do that is simply stark... jibbering... insane.

David Brin said...

SIgh and alack... have you guys noticed that David F absolutely refuses to deal with the matter on the table? It wasn't "strong government" that empowered feudal lords to oppress their people.

It wasn't "strong government" (in the modern bureaucratic sense that you despise) that empowered Greek lords and Persian lords and Assyrian lords and egyptian lords and Hindi lords and Mongol lords and Polish lords and Aztec lords and Inca lords and Polynesian lords and Japanese lords and Roman lords and Carthaginian lords and Carolignian lords and Scottish lords and Bantu lords and Kushite lords and Viking lords and Hittite lords and Burmese lords and Avar lords and Bourbon lords.... to oppress their people.

Or to repress markets or suppress any chance of the sons of serfs to rise up and compete. YOU KNOW THIS! SO why won't you finally, finally finally have the honest guts to face it?

Instead you spin utter fantasies, that there were no repercussions to criticizing the lords in the 1770s... tell that to a man named Benjamin Freaking Franklin, whose one day before the Privy Council transformed him from a loyal subject to the worst enemy the Crown ever had. Jesus, man, have you no shame at all?

Will you ever ever ever ever answer the question about those 6000 years?

David Brin said...

What an utter #$$@##!

Do you even listen to yourself?

Adam Smith wrote against those who had the power to influence policy in a non-democratic state causing that state to grant monopolies and other competition-destroying measures. I contend that that clade included the lords who owned 1/3 of the land and productive capacity in Britain and 1/3 of all the land in the American colonies.

You demand that I spend hours leafing to find words decisively identifying the lords and the king BY NAME, even though that would have exposed Smith to severe risk at the time.

What is amazing is that you have fixated on this as an excuse to go "neener! neeener Brin! neeeeeener!" over and over while deriding me ad hominem...

...when you are the one who evades the macro issue at-hand, over and over again. I have tried to satisfy you re Smith, rephrasing and rephrasing again and again. You on the other hand, have not once, ever, ever remotely, actually tried to grapple with the subject at-hand.

Are you demanding that I concede that Smith spoke only of "merchants and manufacturers"... (even though the lords OWNED most of that stuff)?

WIll you, in return actually turn your head to look at those 6000 years? Or your absurdly immature use of minutia neeenering to evade the real issue that has implications for the whole underpinning of libertarianism?

David Brin said...

BTW, the Civil Aeronatics Board (CAB) and the Interstate Commerce Commission were classic examples of industry "capturing" regulatory agencies. When it came time to dissolve them?

Democrats did it. The Republicans (except a few heroes) fought tooth and nail to keep them alive.

duncan cairncross said...

To David Friedman's comments about Adam Smith

What you are willing to publish depends on the society AND on your own position and courage
An independently wealthy individual can publish ideas that would lose an employed or poorer person their livelihood

It also takes a great deal of courage to push back against the powerful - even when you are right you may not have the courage or you may have too many "hostages to fortune" (family, friends)

John Wilkes - was a very rich man - he had an estate in Buckinghamshire

To "the degree to which power was consolidated in Smith's day."

Anyone who has been around any of the "Stately Homes" of England can see that for themselves

Think what a house like that would cost nowadays - none of the multimillion dollar houses built by the rich come anywhere close
And then compare it to the available resources

By modern standards these guys were Trillionaires

Paul451 said...

Tim H.,
"This seems to dovetail well with a previous topic, seasteading. Let them develop a libertarian society outside the United States, to spare non-participants the grief."

That's what makes Rand's fantasy so vile. Given Galt's technology, they could have founded a secret new society elsewhere, made up of the best'n'brightest. (And indeed, that's pretty much what they did.) There was no need to destroy civilisation, except spite.

duncan cairncross,
"An independently wealthy individual can publish ideas that would lose an employed or poorer person their livelihood"

This is why a lot of social advances (and, I'm sure, evils) came from the idle rich seeing the injustices committed by their own class.

duncan cairncross said...

An additional point about Adam Smith and the society he lived in

He was a Scot!
Even a rich Scot would not have got away with as much as an Englishman

Especially just a few years after the 45!

During this period the wearing of the kilt was a deportation offense

LarryHart said...

Paul451:"

That's what makes Rand's fantasy so vile. Given Galt's technology, they could have founded a secret new society elsewhere, made up of the best'n'brightest. (And indeed, that's pretty much what they did.) There was no need to destroy civilisation, except spite.


In fairness to Rand, I believe she would contend (and her fictional heroes would believe) that they did not "destroy" civilization except BY leaving it. Civilization only worked because of them, and when they left, it fell apart. In fact, it was a magnanamous act to come back and rebuild the country again once this fact was made clear.

Not agreeingwith their sentiment--just attempting to explain.

LarryHart said...

David Friedman:

"If your contention is that a liberal reporter made the whole thing up...well, I'd prefer to see some reason to believe that."

My contention is that you do not know whether a reporter made the whole thing up, or misunderstood something someone actually said, or correctly reported it. But you are confident, without evidence, that the third alternative--which happens to fit your political views--is true, and that suggests that you are not very concerned to be sure that your beliefs are based in reality.


You do have a point, and Dr Brin is the first one to caution against "confirmation bias".

I'll defend my position only to the extent that at the time that "We're an empire now" thing was being reported, I never heard any claims from the other side of the aisle that the quote was made up. Disagreements were limited to whether the (supposed) quote was indicative of good policy or bad policy. Thus I had no cause to think the FACT of the quote itself was in dispute.

Ok, that was sloppy journalism on my part, and I admit that and will be more careful in the future. But that's not the same thing as what you accuse me of--picking and choosing which facts to believe at a whim in order to support that which I already believe. I mean, if it occured to you to make a point based on an old quote that you had seen many times--say, the fact that the Chicago Tribune headline after the 1948 election incorrectly proclaimed "Dewey Defeats Truman", would you really bother verifying it again? Maybe you would and maybe you SHOULD, but the laziness of NOT doing so is the extent of what I'll cop to here.


As for the "Norquist attribution" being in dispute, I have no idea where you got that attribution. The original article simply said an aide to Bush, and the usual conjecture is that it was Carl Rove.


I don't know where I got Norquist either. Alien abduction, maybe? Because my personal memory is that that quote is where I first HEARD OF Grover Norquist--that I wouldn't know who he is EXCEPT for that quote. If it was never even attributed to him, then for the life of me, I'm not sure how I even knew the man existed prior to the (very recent) publicity surrounding his pledge.

David Brin said...

LH... Galt's people engage in deliberate acts of sabotage. Some run wild with piracy on the high seas, raiding mercy ships taking food and money to starving Europe.

The rationalization that "It was all stolen from us in the first place" seems appallingly contrived to us, especially when indeed they could have chosen some country that'd welcome them and started fresh, without trashing their old nation.

But indignation is the drug high that propels believers through a 70 page speech. Randians aren't the only users of that drug! But they are among the most skilled.

LarryHart said...

David Friedman:

I don't know what a "completely unregulated society" is supposed to mean.


I meant "in the absence of government". Of perhaps "Law of the jungle".


If "completely unregulated" means "laissez-faire capitalism," which probably isn't what you mean, then the answer is that the rich will achieve their ends mainly by producing stuff that other people want, thus benefiting others as well as themselves.


That IS one thing that would happen and you and I would both consider it a good thing.

But...


There will probably be some opportunities to benefit themselves at the cost of others as well, for instance by fraud, but many fewer than if there is a powerful government for them to use--fraud is a much more limited tool than force.


Really, you're going to stand on that? Because I think that fraud is much easier to get away with than force. Force is blatant, and when it gets bad enough, invites counter-force, if only because "What do I have to LOSE?" becomes the order of the day. Fraud, by its nature, is hidden and insidious. When it works well, the defrauded don't even know they've been wronged--they probably even buy into the fact that they got what they bargained for.

I think that, without some level of regulation, the "signal to noise" ratio of honest commerce to fraud would become overwhelming in the direction of fraud.


Are you somehow imagining that the alternative to a "completely unregulated society" is "a society regulated to keep the rich from imposing their will?"


Not exactly. I see it as regulated in the sense of rich and poor alike--sort of the opposite of that thing about sleeping under bridges. "The law prevents rich and poor alike from contaminating air and groundwater." The fact that, in practics, this puts more of a burden on the rich than on the poor may seem unfair to some, but I contend it is the province of government. Everybody has the right to breathe. The fact that someone else can put the air in my lungs to more profitable use than I can DOESN'T give him the right to do so.

I'm not saying the point of regulation is specifically to constrain the wealthy and powerful. Rather I'm saying that government regulation is the ONLY effective counterweight against the wealthy and powerful violating the rights of others at will.

LarryHart said...

Wow, Dr Brin. It sure didn't take long to go from:

David F sure stirred you guys up! Thanks David! I knew you'd fit right in here!


thru...


SIgh and alack... have you guys noticed that David F absolutely refuses to deal with the matter on the table?


all the way to...

What an utter #$$@##!

Do you even listen to yourself?


I'm amused because I thought you'd be the one holding ME back.

:)

Paul451 said...

299 and counting.

Any wagers on how many the Avatar essay gets?

LarryHart said...

David Friedman:

I don't know what a "completely unregulated society" is supposed to mean.


I thought this analogy I posted would have made that clearer?


What would be your response were I to argue that police forces were inherently wrong and should be abolished? I presume you would remind me that a world without police would leave me vulnerable to the predations of criminals. I doubt you would accept as sufficient a response from me that I never said I liked criminals either--that I prefer the society of freely-honest individuals to that of criminals OR policemen.

I also doubt you would accept the notion that it is only your OPINION that criminals would take advantage of a policeless society, and that many others disagreed with you.

Does that make my objection more clear?


If that DOESN'T illustrate the problem I have with you're "I only trust honest traders" thing, can you at least tell me what the difference is?

LarryHart said...

Oh, and as to 300 comments, I think that's a record for all the years I've been following this blog.

Neolibertarian said...

Brin: Sigh and alack... have you guys noticed that David F absolutely refuses to deal with the matter on the table?

Heh.

As I previously noted, this tactic of Friedman's is de rigueur for denialists and those arguing from a position of ideology. All indications are that Friedman hasn't even tried to think these things through from a rational evidentiary approach. I suspect he may be incapable of such. This is of course in stark contrast to both his father and yourself. Discarding empiricism for ideology was David Friedman's undoing.

Arizsun Ahola said...

re: The courts being the place to manage property rights as opposed to Congress/Parliament.

I do not believe this is a good solution. In the first part I think it would overwhelm the courts leading to such long decision times that the decision would likely no longer be useful. In the second part, Congress/Parliament is the tool by which people collectively protect themselves against common, gross predations such as Love Canal type situations. It is much, much more efficient to do so via Congress/Parliament than it is to do so via the courts.

Acacia H. said...

@David Friedman: I am afraid I must call bullshit on you, good sir. You stated the following:

"Leftists would be less inclined to view global warming as bad if it were natural. Part of that would be an inclination to attribute to it the death of millions if it were the work of man, and be more skeptical of the same claim for the same global warming if it were natural."

While I am a moderate conservative in my beliefs and leanings, I have to state you are quite false in this due to existing evidence to the contrary. Disease is a natural process. And yet "lefties" are a driving force for government funding of research into cures for disease. In fact, they encourage funding of diseases where a cure would not be economical, and thus industry is unlikely to work on.

Cancer is another quite natural process of life and exists in a number of organisms. And while there is a big business around it, there are some smaller cancers that through economies of scale are not worth the time to find a cure or treatment. Once again, Lefties are the driving force for government funding for these conditions... despite the fact maybe only five people a year die from a specific type of cancer.

Lefties are concerned for people. If the current global warning was a fully natural situation due to, say, increased solar output (which it is not), then the Lefties would STILL be urging reduced carbon emissions, increased carbon capture to cool the planet, and probably solar shades.

I understand the enjoyment that comes from flinging bullshit around, sir. I used to do this when it came to Bill Clinton (who I still don't like as a person). But you have to be careful that you don't allow personal dislikes to color your perceptions until you are putting forward falsehoods.

Rob H.

David Brin said...

MOVING ONWARDS!

These discussions are great... one of the best blog-communities on the planet! Certainly one of the oldest.

But it is time to move on. CONTINUE DISCUSSIONS UNDER COMMENTS UNDER THE LATEST POSTING!

Thanks all....

Kristen said...

Hi there. Interesting analysis. But you got the no-children part wrong.

Rand's heroes do not have children for the simple reason that having and raising children is a LOT of work. Anyone who does that work cannot also invent a new metal stronger than steel and then build bridges out of it, run a transcontinental railroad, or run a multinational copper mining company.

Rand herself knew this -- she never had children. Her life's work was her writing, and children would have gotten in the way of that work.

Rand deals with the issue of inherited wealth, openly. Dagny and James Taggart and Francisco D'Anconia are all the children of very wealthy families. Only James uses his wealth to squash the ingenuity and efforts of the upstarts. Dagny and Francisco, because they share the ethos and ingenuity of their productive forbears, both embark on careers that don't depend on their family's wealth at first. They then take over their family companies having earned the right to run them via their own hard work.

Larry Hamelin said...

LTV is complete crap when it comes to all labor hours being equally valuable. That's baloney and one of Marx's most glaring mistakes.

Marx doesn't say this. He talks about abstract labor hours. His point is not to measure individual labor productivity, but to try to treat formally Smith and Ricardo's assertion that labor is the source of exchange value. I discuss the issue in a little more depth in The Labor Theory of Value.

Unknown said...

Ever read Michael Shermer's essay about Rand called "The Unlikeliest Cult" if I recall correctly.

Anonymous said...

A huge part of the problem with Atlas Shrugged, IMO, is that Rand tried to do much too much in one book. If she'd made it a series of novels, like splitting off the "Twentieth Century Motor Company" story into its own novel, forex, she'd not only have had a lot better stories, she wouldn't have burnt herself out so dreadfully.

I'd say that to understand Rand, you have to keep in mind that she fled from the USSR just as things were getting really bad there...only to find that all the fashionable intellectual types in the US were oohing and aahing over "the future that worked." I could use a particular analogy here, but prefer not to invoke Godwin's Law; instead, think of how an anti-Mussolini Italian would have felt if he'd fled to the US and found out (as was actually the case) that the Fascisti were powerfully present, and powerful, in the Italian-American community. (The Italian Fascists were much more successful in this, pre-WWII, than the Bund ever was; after the Ethiopian invasion, they kept their heads down outside of the community, but they were by no means gone.)

I tend to think of "orthodox" Objectivism as a sort of "black mass" Communism---it has the same relationship to Soviet Communism that the Black Mass and classical Satanism has to Catholicism. A lot of Communist posters I've seen could be "detourned" into Objectivist art very easily---just change some symbols and change the captions.

Christian Schmemann said...

Great article and great critique of Atlas Shurgged and the Randian pseudo-philosophy. I never gave much thought

I know of one old review of Atlas Shurgged that delved a little into the fact that Ayn Rand's heroes never reproduced. Whittaker Chambers didn't delve into the spoiled nature of any descendents of Ayn Rand's heroes; he was far more interested in examining the influences of Nietzsche on Randian pseudo-philosophy.

You may have read Whittaker Chambers' devastating critique of Atlas Shurgged here:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/222482/big-sister-watching-you/flashback

One idea I have about why Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged heroes never reproduced was that her idea of how to make things different is that they don't reproduce to leave possibly inferior heirs. Her idea might well be that they find kids with a considerable potential, and groom them to be technocraticly competent heirs, much like The Party in Orwell's 1984 find kids in both the inner Party and the outer Party who are capable to function as Big Brother.

J. Neil Schulman said...

David, Ayn Rand was not a Marxist; she was a believer in Austrian free-market economics of the Ludwig von Mises brand. But gaining a bachelor's degree from the University of Leningrad she did know her Marx and Lenin -- and the original title of Atlas Shrugged was "The Strike." It's Marxism turned on its head. That's usually called satire. How could you miss that? Oh, maybe it's because you can't make a clear distinction between the oligarchical corporate fascism that is called capitalism by leftists and the only sparingly tried utopian vision of laissez-faire capitalism that Ayn Rand advocated in both fiction and nonfiction. Rand called herself a radical for capitalism and was entirely a creature of the Enlightenment, with liberal social ideas utterly opposed to conservatism and attacked mercilessly by conservatives because of her pro-abortion, anti-religious positions.

Unknown said...

I always thought "We the Living" was her best work, and that as a philosopher, she was far too much "freedom from" than "freedom to".

Both align with the idea that she never got to the stage of maturity that could speak to having children.

Technomad said...

In a lot of ways, Ayn Rand strikes me as having never got over the shock of having escaped Soviet Russia, only to find that all the fashionable intellectuals of the country where she'd taken refuge were gurgling over "the future that worked."

And, IMO, Atlas Shrugged does have excellent parts. Had I been around to advise her, I'd have told her to just do the "Twentieth Century Motor Company" story. If she wanted to show what would happen if the best minds all said "To hell with you!" and went out on strike, a series of novels would have been better...and she wouldn't have burned herself out so badly.

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